Project: Rachmaninoff’s 3rd Piano Concerto

[ajspiano]

So its been a while since there’s been a project thread alive (but this one should be around for a while ). I just started with this and I figure a bit of a diary might keep me going. That may be important since it’s such a monster and it will no doubt take me a very long time to finish it. Not holding out a lot of hope that others will participate (considering the enormity), though obviously anyone and everyone is welcome.

So I’ve been sitting on it for roughly a week. My efforts have been concentrated entirely on the first movement (score) and will probably remain there for a while since I am working on other pieces as well.

Right now there are a few main focus points.

• The opening, bars 1 to 51 – which is up to the “piu vivo” marking. A.K.A. before it gets harder.
• Everything beyond that in beat/bar/phrase segmental practice, a small section each day at a pretty slow pace.
• Section beginning  ~108 (sounds a bit like the latter section of the cadenza, but has fewer elephant stretches)
• The ossia cadenza.

Plus general listening and analysis of the entire work.

….

Because I will want (hopefully receive ) comment before I’m ready to perform the thing in its entirety I’m going to post sectional videos here once they are fluent and ready for more intense musical/interpretive analysis as a whole. Opening section will hopefully be ready for that within a short time (maybe another week)..  and the cadenza, well.. a bit longer..   Also planning to post any technical/musical/practice revelations I encounter.

….

Right now, my most prevalent problem with this opening is that my orchestra’s timing is fixed, and at times it stops altogether ..  basically what this means is that where the accompaniments tempo fluctuates, or stops all together I’m often ending up slightly out of time. Balls.

Soo.. first obvious stumbling block is knowing the thing REALLY well. Its a bit like that comment in ‘shine’ when Cyril says “you have to know it blind folded” or something.. turns out I really do, because if I don’t give the orchestra’s part a good degree of attention I don’t respond to it musically – and its incapable of responding to me since it’s a CD. So I’ve been practicing singing orchestra melody lines while playing, and generally ensuring that my technique is very “loose and free” – and what I mean by that is that I ensure that I know each section well enough that ALL my focus is on musical direction and sound image, there is absolutely no room to be worried about what note I’m going to hit… and when I do hit a wrong note, its absolutely imperative that I do it with all the purpose of the right one, and that I continue on as if it were the right one.

 Rhythm, pulse, intention and emotion prioritised over notes.

………

The cadenza is a lot of fun. Very much loving the left hand offset melody in the opening bars and all the offset octave patterns. Enormously frustrated that I can’t yet play it HT as fast as I’d like… Hate that feeling of having the music inside your head but it falling apart when you try to make it come out of a piano.

Anywho.

On with the day.

[j_menz]

I won't be joining you as I have my own little project slowly driving me mad at present, and


So instead, you may find this useful down the track:



And if it doesn't go well:

[chopin2015]

Good luck! Im going to learn beethoven emperor concerto this coming year.

[ajspiano]

 

That drink will come in handy at those periodic moments browsing the score when one stops and thinks "oh crap, now I have to reconsider whats humanly possible.. again"

If you can at all oblige, I may also need some kind of protection from my fiance who will probably get VERY sick of the work, and the amount of time I spend on it (as opposed to looking after her).

[vsrinivasa]

As part of the Winter Break Project (I'm a professor, and see the thread in Repertoire), I'm learning Gaspard de la Nuit. Good luck with your Rachmaninoff!

[chapplin]

I'll be watching this thread for sure. Have fun!

[chopin2015]

Did u watch lisitsa practice? She had videos

[ajspiano]

Did u watch lisitsa practice? She had videos

I have got her solo videos that came out only a few days ago, I havent seen any that are actual 'practice' - ..I also grabbed her full recording the other day, to go with my plethora of others.

[davidjosepha]

Well, I'm in.

...

...

...

Okay probably not. I might get the score just for funsies though. It can't be that hard, right?

[ajspiano]

It can't be that hard, right?

[j_menz]

It can't be that hard, right?

My impression from the score is more

[chopin2015]

I have got her solo videos that came out only a few days ago, I havent seen any that are actual 'practice' - ..I also grabbed her full recording the other day, to go with my plethora of others.

Its on her livestream account

[ajspiano]

My impression from the score is more

Either way i feel its a trap.. just with more punch than a fly trap.

opening vs random bars from later..



^probably didnt pick bars that are that difficult comparatively to many others...

[davidjosepha]

My impression from the score is more

Whatever, you're the one who told people to join you in your quest. I can play the first 20 measures anyway, although it gets a little tricky starting at measure 3...

[chopin2015]

We are all worried about you, please do not overdose on the rachmaninoff

[ajspiano]

Whatever, you're the one who told people to join you in your quest. I can play the first 20 measures anyway, although it gets a little tricky starting at measure 3...

I'd be glad to have you..  however, I don't wish to encourage anyone to go at something that is way too difficult for them (whether thats is the case for you personally or not?), nor am I going to suggest that this thing not REALLY hard no matter who you are.

I found  27-38 a little challenge but pretty manageable.. and 38-51 to be a mild leap up thanks to the added voice. This area is pretty much up to tempo (atleast the tempo of my accompaniment, which I feel is a tad slow) and I have reasonable control over it...  51+ is consistently difficult (save the odd straight forward bit) for a myriad of different reasons, but I'm also finding that with every new bar covered (as in can play fluent but slow) each subsequent bar is that bit easier..    I'm not really focused on them yet though.. spending more time in the opening (musically) and cadenza (just getting it together).

..which basically means I've covered already the stuff I knew wasnt too bad.. and now its ALL up hill..   and I have to reassure chopin2015 that I'll be careful not to injure myself in the coming weeks

[chopin2015]

Mkay. Yeah that is a very difficult concerto. I'm slightly jealous. 

[davidjosepha]

I'd be glad to have you..  however, I don't wish to encourage anyone to go at something that is way too difficult for them (whether thats is the case for you personally or not?), nor am I going to suggest that this thing not REALLY hard no matter who you are.

I wasn't actually planning on joining you, although I'm considering actually starting on his first concerto, at least the first movement, which I really like.

[ajspiano]

I wasn't actually planning on joining you, although I'm considering actually starting on his first concerto, at least the first movement, which I really like.

..maybe its just a concerto project thread?

[chopin2015]

cool!

[j_menz]

..maybe its just a concerto project thread?

Or is it pick a Rach and roll....

 

[vsrinivasa]

If this is a concerto project thread, I'm in. After I finish the winter break project, I think I'm going to try Ravel's concerto in G Major.

If it is a "pick a Rach and roll" project thread, I'm in as well. Maybe his 2nd concerto, after I learn Gaspard de la Nuit and Ravel's Concerto in G.

[chopin2015]

Or is it pick a Rach and roll....

 

hahahah!

but yes I'm with V, I am going to finish my winter break project (beethoven) and then I will work on it more than time allows right now.

[ajspiano]

Or is it pick a Rach and roll....

lol...   or in my case, possible rach and ruin. 

Either's fine I guess..  I was going to say "rach concerto" thread at first but then i guess I just thought so long as the subject matter generally relates to a work with orchestral accompaniment its probably relevant..

Either way I'll probably be posting in here periodically for a really long time so I guess anyone can stroll in and talk about any concerto they are learning, and the stuff that goes alone with learning works that are long, tough, and orchestral.

[vsrinivasa]

lol...   or in my case, possible rach and ruin. 

Either's fine I guess..  I was going to say "rach concerto" thread at first but then i guess I just thought so long as the subject matter generally relates to a work with orchestral accompaniment its probably relevant..

Either way I'll probably be posting in here periodically for a really long time so I guess anyone can stroll in an talk about any concerto they are learning, and the stuff that goes alone with learning works that are long, tough, and orchestral.

Can I discuss Gaspard de la Nuit instead? Or do I have to wait to post here until after winter break? 

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I remember a while ago I made a thread like this and all of you guys flamed me.

I'll do this as my winter break project.  Only because I'm not the only one interested in the Rach 3.

[chopin2015]

Can I discuss Gaspard de la Nuit instead? Or do I have to wait to post here until after winter break? 

you should post in my ondine thread, is that the one u are working on right now?

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Either way i feel its a trap.. just with more punch than a fly trap.

opening vs random bars from later..



^probably didnt pick bars that are that difficult comparatively to many others...

Lol you picked the wrong bars.

The bottom passage actually isn't that bad.

[vsrinivasa]

you should post in my ondine thread, is that the one u are working on right now?

Yes, started Ondine yesterday. Where's your Ondine thread?

[ajspiano]

Can I discuss Gaspard de la Nuit instead? Or do I have to wait to post here until after winter break? 

If you write/arrange an orchestral accompaniment. 

I remember a while ago I made a thread like this and all of you guys flamed me.

That's partly because you're 17..  and people don't take you seriously when you're that age if you say you're going to do a really massive task until you actual prove them wrong and do it..  the bonus is that when you do do it, you get way more appreciation and awe-like reactions than an adult does...  and all the adults who said not to do it feel really "salty" (is that how you use that word?)

Lol you picked the wrong bars.

The bottom passage actually isn't that bad.

yeh I know, i just picked basically at random..  since its pretty much all at least a bit difficult...  I think the chords in the cadenza are tougher with all the jumping around, just as one similar example..  save other types of difficulties.

[vsrinivasa]

If you arrange it as a concerto rather than a solo.

You know, I might actually try that. I arranged Une Barque Sur L'Ocean as a concerto last year.

[chopin2015]

Yes, started Ondine yesterday. Where's your Ondine thread?

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=48071.0

haha this one is real embarrassing. FYI i just never had to do much left hand 3 and 4 octave arpeggios before I got into this type of music.

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=48154.0

[ajspiano]

You know, I might actually try that. I arranged Une Barque Sur L'Ocean as a concerto last year.

That'd be awesome. There are 2 orchestral versions I think..  but not with a piano lead part, just a straight orchestra.

[ajspiano]

Lol you picked the wrong bars.

The bottom passage actually isn't that bad.

Also, just to clarify.. the notes arent that bad..

..but it ramps up a bit when you pay attention to the "allegro, molto marcato, ff"

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Also, just to clarify.. the notes arent that bad..

..but it ramps up a bit when you pay attention to the "allegro, molto marcato, ff"

I still think something from the second movement would've been better.

That freaking passage with the repeated notes near the end is pretty crazy.

[ajspiano]

I still think something from the second movement would've been better.

That freaking passage with the repeated notes near the end is pretty crazy.

A fair call.

I only had the first movement open from the IMSLP file I posted in the OP.

[ajspiano]

Alright..  here's something to kick this off properly..   tonight I have used my recording program to speed up the orchestral part a touch, so its at a pace that I'm more satisfied with.. I had to spend a bit of time reacquainting myself with the faster part of the opening to get it at the higher tempo...

This is from bars 1 to 37, up to where the second voice comes in..  beyond which I currently tend to "lose it" when trying to play up to speed..  more slow work to do. *sigh.

I think this highlights at one point how I'm kind of having to focus a lot on tempo adjustments as the orchestra comes back in, the fluctuation happens around bar 32 - which is where the notation suggests the constant crossover of hands - and which I'm i guess "cheating" on right now, because I lose a lot of speed trying to do it how its written.. something I'm going to work on over time because I think it sounds better with the cross over, rather than the single stroke drum roll thing I've got going here.

Also feel I need to quieten down generally past bar 27 after having a listen to myself now. Perhaps some time to spend ironing out the nuances of the opening theme too? There is a real mountain of interpretive room available in these seemingly simple bars. Horowitz does this thing here where he plays fractionally in front of or behind the pulse and it gives the passage real movement and a massive amount of emotion - comparatively to the evenness of most recordings I've listened to, which leave me feeling a bit bland.

*makes note to fix piano stools squeakiness..

**realises how insufficient an iphone is as a recording device for an orchestral part.. (not as if I didnt know already I guess)

[49410enrique]

Also, just to clarify.. the notes arent that bad..

seriously though, best of luck, will follow along eagerly, you can and will do this!

[vsrinivasa]

Alright..  here's something to kick this off properly..   tonight I have used my recording program to speed up the orchestral part a touch, so its at a pace that I'm more satisfied with.. I had to spend a bit of time reacquainting myself with the faster part of the opening to get it at the higher tempo...

This is from bars 1 to 37, up to where the second voice comes in..  beyond which I currently tend to "lose it" when trying to play up to speed..  more slow work to do. *sigh.

I think this highlights at one point how I'm kind of having to focus a lot on tempo adjustments as the orchestra comes back in, the fluctuation happens around bar 32 - which is where the notation suggests the constant crossover of hands - and which I'm i guess "cheating" on right now, because I lose a lot of speed trying to do it how its written.. something I'm going to work on over time because I think it sounds better with the cross over, rather than the single stroke drum roll thing I've got going here.

Also feel I need to quieten down generally past bar 27 after having a listen to myself now. Perhaps some time to spend ironing out the nuances of the opening theme too? There is a real mountain of interpretive room available in these seemingly simple bars. Horowitz does this thing here where he plays fractionally in front of or behind the pulse and it gives the passage real movement and a massive amount of emotion - comparatively to the evenness of most recordings I've listened to, which leave me feeling a bit bland.

*makes note to fix piano stools squeakiness..

**realises how insufficient an iphone is as a recording device for an orchestral part.. (not as if I didnt know already I guess)

That was very good!

[tdawe]

Agreed, that's a nice start. You clearly have quite some prowess. Good luck staying focused to finish this mammoth task!

[chopin2015]

That is super awesome! I'm excited for you. I mean your task, not sexually. Muahahaha.

[vsrinivasa]

I'm starting a Gaspard de la Nuit project thread in here as well, so if anyone would like to help me, please post there. Anyway, ajspiano is a great pianist. @ajspiano: You have done really well so far on this difficult concerto. I will be following this thread. Great job so far!

[costicina]

I had no doubts from the start the you are the one who hs all the chances to win this challenge. Awesome start, intriguing project: thank you so much for this lesson of courage, determination and..good piano playng 

[austinarg]

Where did you get the orchestra part alone? Is it one of those Music Minus One piano thingies?

[ajspiano]

Where did you get the orchestra part alone? Is it one of those Music Minus One piano thingies?

yes, - though its worth mentioning I had to screw with it a bit with digital recording software to make it work ..  it was a bit flat compared to my piano, and as I mentioned above I also altered the speed because I felt it was a bit slow..  which has reduced the clarity of the sound..  and I expect I'll have to make further changes.

Its by no means perfect, but a lot better than nothing.

[ajspiano]

Alright, so I’ve been trying to increase fluidity/temp in the section past where I stop in the above video. Interesting point, this one below bar, and specifically the highlighted three notes was doing in the whole passage. Just there I’ve been doing this kind of slight outward pull from the shoulder to the A – I suspect because I naturally felt more comfortable playing the “A” in the white key area. As the tempo increased I began to realise that this was causing a tension problem for my RH. Shifting forward instead and playing deeper in the black key area for the “A” resolved this..  the passage is starting to sound good.




Also of note, just a few bars latter.. the first moment where the voicing starts to demand a bit more focus from me due to how tightly interwoven the hands are through here. I think the movements are a bit more specialised than what I’ve typically been playing lately to avoid the hands running into each other and that has required a bit of focus. So now I really have to work on not just bring out the top line (highlighted below) – but also actually giving it some dynamic shape.




Finally, the below bars are just awesome. If I was to be rehearsing this with an actual orchestra I swear I’d deliberately screw up just past this so I can keep playing/hearing this part over and over. The rising melody in chords transitioning to the triplet passage.. i dont know - gives me goosebumps.

[austinarg]

Hell, I knew this concerto was hard, but I had never actually had a look at the score. This makes it look even harder.

[ajspiano]

Hell, I knew this concerto was hard, but I had never actually had a look at the score. This makes it look even harder.

Seems to work at a rate of 1 easy bar for every 100 hard ones..  and 75 out of the hundred are not just hard, but obscenely hard.

I actually think a lot of them time its not so much the notes but getting the music into them.. ..not that I've made a huge amount of headway yet but in most pieces I've previously worked on (even if its a long shot ahead of me) if I could play the notes I could play them at least a bit musically..  that doesn't seem to be the case here. Maybe that's a reflection of it being a bit too hard for me? I'm not sure, I havent hit anything thats made me think "No, that's too hard for me right now". But I have run into a lot of things that make me think "ok, going to have to let this develop over time and be patient".

I've been doing more stuff with the cadenza lately.. the start of which I can pretty much play at a decent speed.. but at the opening it sounds not mechanical.. but not as diabolic/unpredictable as i want.. and its really hard to get it sounding just right..  this part.. -



^the left hand part in the first 3 bars here is deceptively challenging (atleast it is for me), - see the descending melodic line played with the thumb (all the crotchets). If I accent these the passage sounds like its rhymically grouped in 4's and the triplet feel totally evaporates because it works in these 4 note hand position changes of octaves decending. Getting the passage to feel grouped in 3's, and have the decending melody is quite a polyrhythmic pain just now... plus trying to get the passage to have tempo fluctuations so that it creates that sense of rushed unpredictability...  oh and the tied note at the end tends to throw my rhythm as I try to come in to the 4th bar.

However, past those 3 bars its a lot more manageable and extremely fun to play. Makes you feel like Count Dracula or something.  ...atleast until it happens again within a few bars 

[chopin2015]

 Don't worry about the music too much, your first video was not perfect but it was pretty dang(very) good considering the time put in (sounds cooler when it's fast, and I agree that you should go with the tempo you have in mind) . You can slow it down again later and treat it like a blurry drawing that you have to outline with a very fine tip of a pencil until you finally get a clear enough "picture". Sounds like a lot of fun! Are you working on any other pieces? Just curious how much time per sitting you spend before you break and if you cycle through sections and sight read some or do you continuously memorize and work from memory? I don't see anything wrong with memorizing as much as you can, then working through it by adding detail. Great job!

[ajspiano]

Don't worry about the music too much, your first video was not perfect but it was pretty dang(very) good considering the time put in

It was half decent because I pay attention to the music - in addition, immediate attention to musical details directly facilitates better memory.

I presume you looked at the score at least a little.. the opening is incredibly mild compared to the rest and there are numerous situations where voicing is a challenge and very important. Failing to give this immediate concern will result in masses of wasted practice time. I'm not all that for double work on a project so enormous. Given some sections also require MOUNTAINS of repetition over many days/weeks I also risk burning an inadequate execution into muscle memory if I don't focus on details.. 

Are you working on any other pieces?

Yes (and other musical things that arent pieces) but the concerto is the main focus right now. I usually have one monster that I give decent attention daily and the rest is a bit random.. I can't really have a large and structured practice program because too often my practice is cut short or disrupted by life (I effectively have 3 jobs).. however what I have been doing lately usually includes some combination of the following...

classical/baroque improv
general jazzy tomfoolery
etude of the day/week (i have learnt atleast a few passages from ALL chopin etudes and kind of meander between the pieces gradually completing them)
sight reading - whatever floats my boat on the day
plus anything that I need to do for a student

Just curious how much time per sitting you spend before you break and if you cycle through sections and sight read some or do you continuously memorize and work from memory?

I memorise pretty naturally so I don't deliberately do that, it just happens.. So I work from the score and gradually transition to memory when I'm ready.. sometimes thats fast, sometimes it takes a while.

At present, the first movement is broken into 36 practice sections. I'm in the process of splitting up the accompaniment track and burning off a CD that has an individual track for every section. I'm working on a few sections at a time and just sight reading others. Some I can play in their entirety, but they still require work to get together with the orchestra and be more musical.. there are others that are VERY hard and I have to work 1 or 2 beats at a time..  and everything in between.. Hard to say exactly what time frames I'm using because right now there are parts that I need to place all my focus in (hard parts first) and so they are taking up most of the time..  as more sections come together I'll probably have a more regimented practice regime such as x number of repetitions of known sections, followed by more extensive and broken up work on the hard parts... probably with some basic time constraints.. say like 10 minutes per section so that I ensure I get through a reasonable number of sections every practice.