How Free is your country?

[lostinidlewonder]

There are three forms of freedom:

Physically, are we free to do everything that we want to do?
Psychologically, are we free to do everything we wish to do?
Morally are we free to do everything we want?

It is becoming quite apparent that in the 21st century restrictions on these three forms of freedom are slowly being tightened more and more.



We all like to think that we live in a world of freedom, the West brags about it all the time. Bush even says "They hate us because we are free". But what is so free about the democracy anyway? America is slowly stripping away what constitutes freedom with their army having the authority to indefinitely detaining US citizens without trial. This even goes against the very nature of justice where people are supposed to be considered innocent before proven guilty.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/21/ndaa-indefinite-detention-bill-rand-paul_n_2347774.html


In my own country there are many issues which also spit in the face of freedom. Look at Australia's attempt to control communications like censoring the internet for example and we all know that Communist China's internet is severely censored. Recently they where debating whether shopping centers would have the right to tell parents with screaming children to leave the complex. I mean really!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_in_Australia
https://www.mamamia.com.au/parenting/shopping-centre-banning-kids/

[j_menz]

Recently they where debating whether shopping centers would have the right to tell parents with screaming children to leave the complex. I mean really!

Quite so. That shouldn't be a right (a choice), it should be mandatory (they have to, under legal sanction).

[lostinidlewonder]

Freedom Case: GUANTANAMO

This detention centre was called a "sad chapter in American history" by the president Obama yet attempts to close this complex has failed repeated attempts. During the 2008 campaign, Obama promised to close the camp within his first year in office. He first took action within his first two days in office, issuing a suspension of prosecutions at the camp but his actions didn't take long to grind to a complete halt. The biggest blow came when President Obama signed the Defence Authorization Bill stopping the talk of transferring the prisoners to mainland America or foreign countries who had offered to house the prisoners.
 

The problem with Guantanamo is that it allow the Military and civilian courts different rights and the new bill passed late last year allows them to detained people without trial for years on end.

Guantanamo was established by President George Bush in January 2002 soon after 911 attack. The camp was originally used as a place to store particularly dangerous prisoners as they were not given any rights granted under the Geneva Conventions however this stance has changed over the years and now the camp is widely seen as a symbol that perverts civil rights.


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2074576/President-Obama-signs-law-detain-terror-suspects-indefinitely.html

[lostinidlewonder]

Quite so. That shouldn't be a right (a choice), it should be mandatory (they have to, under legal sanction).

So what do parents who have no money to afford baby sitting do when they need to go shopping? Leave their children in the car with the aircon running? lol

[lostinidlewonder]

What about smokers and drinkers? Why are the smokers given such a bad case, banned from smoking anywhere in public, yet people can drink and get drunk in a pub, then go out into public. Why is alcohol in the West countries so socially acceptable? In many East countries it is a disgrace but smoking is a tradition.

[outin]

So what do parents who have no money to afford baby sitting do when they need to go shopping? Leave their children in the car with the aircon running? lol

Maybe they should just create child free zones for people like me and J-man? If they want my money that is... At present I avoid going to shopping malls at all costs.

To your original question, freedom is mostly an illusion in the present times. The closest you can get to being free is to withdraw as much as possible from the society.

[j_menz]

So what do parents who have no money to afford baby sitting do ...?

Try contraception until they can.

Freedom is all well and good when it's MY freedom. It's bloody inconvenient when it's someone elses.

[p2u_]

There are three forms of freedom:

Physically, are we free to do everything that we want to do?
Psychologically, are we free to do everything we wish to do?
Morally are we free to do everything we want?

It is becoming quite apparent that in the 21st century restrictions on these three forms of freedom are slowly being tightened more and more.

First of all, it would make sense to determine "freedom", "free will" as concepts and see what limits them. This is useful in itself for one's own survival and psychological health. The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy has some really good articles about this, for example:
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/freewill/

In my own country there are many issues which also spit in the face of freedom. Look at Australia's attempt to control communications like censoring the internet for example and we all know that Communist China's internet is severely censored.

Censorship of the Internet also has its positive sides: protecting children with working parents, for example, from all the aggression. On the one hand, I hate censorship, but on the other hand, I impose it upon myself by implementing a Default Deny policy. I will only go to places I think are good for me and my child surfs the Internet under my guidance so that by the time he gets older, he will have the responsibility to do it himself without being hurt. I block virtually EVERYTHING I did not choose myself by default. If site "A" has 30 third-parties installed for advertising and promotion purposes, then all those 30 are blocked because I only want to see "A". Not good for the Internet economy, but this keeps your operating system clean, by the way. No Anti-Virus needed for "protection", so for that money I can take my boy to the Moscow Zoo.

Recently they where debating whether shopping centers would have the right to tell parents with screaming children to leave the complex. I mean really!

Why would anybody have to put up with my child's bad mood/behavior?

Paul

[ajspiano]

I told a child off in a store once. He threw his shoe at a shop attendant and the parent didn't say a word.

[lostinidlewonder]

To your original question, freedom is mostly an illusion in the present times. The closest you can get to being free is to withdraw as much as possible from the society.

I think this is quite true.


I enjoy being a part of the community however so I notice how restricted life actually is. You need to have this and that and this and that if you want to do this or that. You want to walk bare foot around the place? Go for it, but if you go into a shopping center with no shoes on you might be told to leave. You can be told to leave if you are not wearing a shirt even!

You like your pets? Don't take a bird on your shoulder out in public you will be told to leave. It is all these health regulations didn't you know? Blind people with guide dogs, these dogs pose no health problems so are allowed to go anywhere they like, they are special dogs lol.

Smoking and Drinking have got to be the most annoying differences in freedom. A family cannot enjoy a picnic in freedom, if the father or mother opens a can of beer while sitting in a public park you will get fined for public drinking. Gone are the days of having a BBQ washing down it with a can of beer and you smokers cannot smoke anywhere in public without being fined.

Have you seen the cigarette packages in Australia also? The law here has forced them to have graphic images of disease and the warnings need to be a huge font size. What about alcohol which kills more innocent people on the roads? Why is there not pictures of dead people in car accidents on every bottle of alcohol sold?


I can foresee, certainly in America, that eventually life is going to be so tight that you simply will not want to go out in public or travel anywhere on public transport. Americans should compare what it felt like going to a live sports event in the 20th century compared to today's vigorous inspection of each and every person who enters a complex. It didn't take long for these restrictions to come into your life, it happened quite quickly. Certainly it will continue and before you know it you will be put in jail if you do not have your ID card on your person, you could be a terrorist.

[lostinidlewonder]

Why would anybody have to put up with my child's bad mood/behavior?

Why not? People forget that they once where children also.

[fleetfingers]

Why would anybody have to put up with my child's bad mood/behavior?

I agree, a shopping center should be able to kick someone out if they feel it's best for their business. Why should the government make that decision? I've never understood that. Someone sets up a business, they can make their own rules. What about their freedom? And is the person with the screaming child being forced to shop there? Do they have a right or "freedom" to tell everyone else what is socially acceptable? And to decide what is acceptable in someone else's store, which they have invested in and own?

[p2u_]

Why not? People forget that they once where children also.

Because MY child's behavior is MY responsibility. You cannot have freedom without taking responsibility for yourself and for others.

Paul

[fleetfingers]

Why not? People forget that they once where children also.

I do think that many places are not child-friendly anymore and that people can be too judgmental. I think it depends on the type of screaming and the duration. Even usually well-behaved children can have a bad day and catch a good mom off-guard, putting her in an awkward situation.

Still, the store should be able to judge whether it's bad enough to be asked to leave.

[ajspiano]

People forget that they once where children also.

When I was a child I was exceptionally well behaved in such situations, and had I not been my mother or father would have seen that I regretted it very quickly.

I definitely think a store should have the right to refuse patrons that can't behave, be they children or adults. A store is not obliged to provide for all. I certainly wouldn't agree to continue providing piano lessons for a child that was disrespectful toward me or my home/property.

[fleetfingers]

So what do parents who have no money to afford baby sitting do when they need to go shopping? Leave their children in the car with the aircon running? lol

Where I live, one would be investigated by CPS for doing such a thing.

[j_menz]

I do think that many places are not child-friendly anymore

Not nearly enough of them.

[lostinidlewonder]

Does a screaming child scream in everyone ears constantly? No they are moving around, you will not have to experience it for a long time. Some families have not much money and they cannot choose where to shop, some parents have difficult children and that is not completely their fault.

People are overly sensitive to what stands out and what is not the norm. Should we also remove mentally handicapped people who cannot control the sound coming from themselves? Should we ban people with Tourette because they do not fit in with the norm? This is the problem. Society wants everything to look normal and the same, they don't want things to be different. This is a terrible miscarriage of justice, humans are unique and should not fit a mold to enjoy freedom.

[lostinidlewonder]

Where I live, one would be investigated by CPS for doing such a thing.

Yeah I know and that is understandable. We had to smash in a car window once because of that situation and they did not dare take us to court over it. It is obvious that a parents with a problematic child has no choice but to take the child into the shops. If the child starts crying do they then take them outside and wait for the crying to stop then go back in? Shopping for groceries might take the entire day!

I do not have children and I don't care if children are crying in public or making a noise. It is not like I am following them around the entire shopping center! And if they are in the food hall eating next to me I will deal with it, it is not like I have to deal with it 100% of the time I go shopping. What do they do about a crying child on an airplane then? I flew to America and it took 20 hours and there was an infant crying and making a noise the entire time. Should they ban also infants from crying?

[j_menz]

Some families have not much money and they cannot choose where to shop, some parents have difficult children and that is not completely their fault.

Some people simply should not be allowed to breed.

[j_menz]

What do they do about a crying child on an airplane then?

Parachute. Push. Peace.

[lostinidlewonder]

Because MY child's behavior is MY responsibility. You cannot have freedom without taking responsibility for yourself and for others.

Lets hope we don't live in your world.

Some people simply should not be allowed to breed.

Lol. True but they should have the freedom to do so anyway. I know some people have children so they could get that children bonus of a few grand from the government lol.

[ajspiano]

Lol. True but they should have the freedom to do so anyway. I know some people have children so they could get that children bonus of a few grand from the government lol.

There are cases here where parents have deliberately had more children to increase their centrelink benefit I believe.

[p2u_]

Does a screaming child scream in everyone ears constantly? No they are moving around, you will not have to experience it for a long time.

Still, when you look at orangutans, for example, when a child behaves badly, the mother will slap him. That's nature: show others the acceptable limit. If you don't take this responsibility, then somebody else may decide to do it for you: exercise his "freedom", take out his gun and shoot the child and/or you.

People are overly sensitive to what stands out and what is not the norm. Should we also remove mentally handicapped people who cannot control the sound coming from themselves? Should we ban people with Tourette because they do not fit in with the norm? This is the problem. Society wants everything to look normal and the same, they don't want things to be different. This is a terrible miscarriage of justice, humans are unique and should not fit a mold to enjoy freedom.

I think that problem is different; there is no INTENT to disturb others, to attract negative attention, etc., and everybody knows this. I think if a disabled person shouts, curses loudly, starts hitting people, etc., he/she will also be removed from the premises, which is reasonable.

Paul

[lostinidlewonder]

There are cases here where parents have deliberate had more children to increase their centrelink benefit I believe.

Yeah it is true. I know certain families where the parents chose to earn less from work so that they could receive more benefits. It is just a terrible circle of poverty. I do charity work at the church donating food vouchers and food baskets to the needy and you notice the grandparents, parents, children and grandchildren all from one family come to get benefits over the years. Welfare payments is one of the most screwed up systems don't get me talking about it! What is even worse is the housing situation in Australia, families do not have an easy time finding a home to rent and the government housing can't keep up. I constantly read in the newspapers of families who are living in their car because the law forced them to find a new place in 60 days and they could not and were not assisted.

[p2u_]

Because MY child's behavior is MY responsibility. You cannot have freedom without taking responsibility for yourself and for others.

Lets hope we don't live in your world.

What do you mean? What's wrong with taking responsibility for yourself and others?

Paul

[lostinidlewonder]

Still, when you look at orangutans, for example, when a child behaves badly, the mother will slap him. That's nature: show others the acceptable limit. If you don't take this responsibility, then somebody else may decide to do it for you: exercise his "freedom", take out his gun and shoot the child and/or you.

?

I think that problem is different; there is no INTENT to disturb others, to attract negative attention, etc., and everybody knows this. I think if a disabled person shouts, curses loudly, starts hitting people, etc., he/she will also be removed from the premises, which is reasonable.

And you can judge exactly what causes every single child to be unhappy in public? You should be a doctor!

[lostinidlewonder]

Lets hope we don't live in your world.

What do you mean? What's wrong with taking responsibility for yourself and others?

Paul

I'm sorry arguing has been disabled (*) nothing personal against anyone.

[p2u_]

?
And you can judge exactly what causes every single child to be unhappy in public? You should be a doctor!

No. You get up, leave the premises where you are disturbing others and find out what's wrong, if necessary with the help of a doctor.

Paul

[lostinidlewonder]

No. You get up, leave the premises where you are disturbing others and find out what's wrong, if necessary with the help of a doctor.

Paul

I'm sorry that does not highlight freedom of choice. Your solution is irrelevant to many others.

[p2u_]

I'm sorry arguing has been disabled (*) nothing personal against anyone.

I disabled PM so that I won't be harassed by anyone, so that "secrets", usually discussed through PM, cannot be used against me in a distorted form outside that PM environment (sad experience). What I have to say, I'll say in the open; nothing behind the scenes. What does that have to do with the topic?

Paul

[lostinidlewonder]

I disabled PM so that I won't be harassed by anyone, so that "secrets", usually discussed through PM, cannot be used against me in a distorted form outside that PM environment (sad experience). What I have to say, I'll say in the open; nothing behind the scenes. What does that have to do with the topic?

Paul

I'm sorry arguing has been disabled (*) nothing personal against anyone.

[p2u_]

I'm sorry that does not highlight freedom of choice. Your solution is irrelevant to many others.

How is that? I think most of the others will be grateful that I leave them with their own freedom to eat their dinner in a quiet fashion, enjoy their shopping experience undisturbed.

Paul

[lostinidlewonder]

How is that? I think most of the others will be grateful that I leave them with their own freedom to eat their dinner in a quiet fashion, enjoy their shopping experience undisturbed.

Good for you. You are only one person in a world of billions all who have different situations than yourself. Surprising isn't it!

[p2u_]

Good for you. You are only one person in a world of billions all who have different situations than yourself. Surprising isn't it!

I am merely explaining a mechanism. My freedom stops where other people's freedom starts.

Paul

[lostinidlewonder]

I am merely explaining a mechanism. My freedom stops where other people's freedom starts.

Paul

"A" being the operative word. What you say makes no sense for other people in different situations than yourself. It is really not that difficult to understand lol.

[lostinidlewonder]

Over population in US jails is becoming a larger and larger problem. This is for many reasons, one large reason is that mental health services are severely underfunded and many inmates are in jail because of health problems rather than a law problem. Why are these people denied the freedom of health service? The health service in US is in tatters itself, anyone visiting america who gets sick should buy a ticket to Canada to be treated, you will leave a US hospital without even the shirt on your back!

US citizens have a terrible health insurance situation which causes a great deal of problems to their choices in freedom.

Look at the prisoner overpopulation in San Quentin for example. The prison's gymnasium is being used to hold prisoners and bunk beds! There are more than 360 inmates that live there because there's no room anywhere else in the facility.



https://www.squidoo.com/prison-overcrowding-is-quickly-becoming-a-major-problem-in-the-united-states


Maybe the USA needs to stop waging war and start looking after their people and their own health? Mental health worldwide is swept under the carpet. Suicides are still considered choice where almost all the time it is treatable mental health issues which caused it. Freedom? Bah!

[p2u_]

Over population in US jails [...]

I recommend you to open your own anti-US blog and install a Facebook "Like" button. I'm sure you'll be very popular among the masses.
P.S.: Ever seen a Russian jail?

Paul

[lloyd_cdb]

I recommend you to open your own anti-US blog and install a Facebook "Like" button. I'm sure you'll be very popular among the masses.
P.S.: Ever seen a Russian jail?

Paul

In regards to P.S.: I've been stalking this thread writing essays, but it's been going too fast for me to actually post them. This was easy to respond to, so I figured I could write a couple sentences. Comparison doesn't make a situation any better. If everyone in the world was 300 pounds, would a 280 pound person be healthy? Regardless, I think you know where my opinion stands on most of the crap in this thread...

[lostinidlewonder]

lloyd_cdb and p2u you both need to realize are are only one voice, your horse is quite high. I merely throw down ideas and thoughts and people can make their own assessment. You both however fear that if people don't see it IN YOUR WAY that there is something going on which needs to be quashed. Thanks for bumping my threads.

[lloyd_cdb]

Australians are horrible people. Discuss:

https://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/law/aboriginal-prison-rates

[lostinidlewonder]

I think what was done to the Aboriginals in post colonial Australia was an atrocity and many Australians believe the same. The Government itself said "sorry" and we have a national sorry day, I don't see the US saying sorry to the native Indians?

[lloyd_cdb]

lloyd_cdb and p2u you both need to realize are are only one voice, your horse is quite high. I merely throw down ideas and thoughts and people can make their own assessment. You both however fear that if people don't see it IN YOUR WAY that there is something going on which needs to be quashed. Thanks for bumping my threads.

It's not a fear of seeing it in my way. It reminds me of the US VP debates last year. Paul Ryan made 90% of his facts up on the spot, yet 49% of the population believed it because he said it.
Saying whatever you like is a great example of freedom. Freedom of speech doesn't make speech intelligent. You have no idea what freedom even is in the US, and I doubt you've even been on US soil considering the things you've mentioned about our lack of freedom. Your comments are nothing but tabloid headlines expecting people to agree with you, or simply trying to incite arguments. You criticize the US media, yet you display the EXACT same characteristics. Sensationalism and slander, great method for conversation.

[lostinidlewonder]

I think Australia is terribly racist also even though we are very much a multicultural society. The "give them a go" motto itself is laced with racism, yes give them a go only because they are different? Most white Australians have nothing to do with any Aboriginals raced people, there is generally a sense of wariness between the two, it is a terrible racist feeling even though most will not admit it.

So you may see I am not only US critical. The US however is a much much bigger fish than Australia and Australia tends to lag behind the US in trends. What happens in the US usually happens here many years later. The fact that some members think I am against the US is fine, you are welcome to your unintelligent opinion. The fact that I say I am not anti-US will also be not accepted by the minority of trouble makers here on pianostreet, as if they know what I think better than myself? You are conspiracy theorists through and through if you do not take my word for it. lol double standards much?

[p2u_]

I merely throw down ideas and thoughts and people can make their own assessment.

The problem is: most can't if they are not warned about the consequences. One needs at least a 99.9 percentile on the verbal section of the GMAT (especially "critical reasoning/arguments") to be able to assess the merit of the data being thrown about on the Internet.

Paul

[lloyd_cdb]

I think what was done to the Aboriginals in post colonial Australia was an atrocity and many Australians believe the same. The Government itself said "sorry" and we have a national sorry day, I don't see the US saying sorry to the native Indians?

I'd personally rather not pay taxes than get a written apology. Call me crazy. Empty words are empty words. Oops, I slaughtered you, MY BAD!

[lostinidlewonder]

The problem is: most can't if they are not warned about the consequences. One needs at least a 99.9 percentile on the verbal section of the GMAT (especially "critical reasoning") to be able to assess the merit of the data being thrown about on the Internet.

There is no problems in my mind thus what you say does not make sense to many others.

You have no idea what freedom even is in the US, and I doubt you've even been on US soil considering the things you've mentioned about our lack of freedom. Your comments are nothing but tabloid headlines expecting people to agree with you, or simply trying to incite arguments. You criticize the US media, yet you display the EXACT same characteristics. Sensationalism and slander, great method for conversation.

You are welcome to your unsubstantiated claims. Everything I have written here is true, you have to take off your conspiracy theorist hat for a moment.

[lostinidlewonder]

I'd personally rather not pay taxes than get a written apology. Call me crazy. Empty words are empty words. Oops, I slaughtered you, MY BAD!

You're crazy.

[lloyd_cdb]

The fact that some members think I am against the US is fine, you are welcome to your unintelligent opinion. The fact that I say I am not anti-US will also be not accepted by the minority of trouble makers here on pianostreet, as if they know what I think better than myself? You are conspiracy theorists through and through if you do not take my word for it. lol double standards much?

Let's say I posted 100 links about how black people were ruining society: discuss.

How many 'unintelligent people' would call me racist? You are posting slanderous comments, many of which are factually incorrect. you don't bother fact checking yet throw them out here anyway claiming them as discussion points. Accusations are not discussions.

When was the last time you went to a sporting event in the US? How were you treated by security? What freedoms were ripped from you the moment you stepped foot on our soil?

[lloyd_cdb]

You're crazy.

How is that crazy? Native Americans don't pay taxes on their reservations, taxes which account for half of my income. You would rather someone say 'sorry' and then take your money rather than keep it and just be ignored? That's just plain silly.