slow fingers

[musical_fingers]

i have been playing for 12 years done my exams and, i do well, play big pieces, practice scales half an hour every day, my piano has stiff keys so my fingers get a good workout, but the biggest problem is my fingers just dont move, how can i strengthen my fingers? is it the way i practice my scales? do i practice them wrong? my teacher wont let me do any etudes until i can play my scales properly 
HELP!  

[Antnee]

Your fingers don't move? Huh?

I take it you are asking for advice on strenghtening your hands and fingers.

Look at this thread and consider Dohnanyi exercises. They are amazing for finger independence and strengthening of the hands.

 https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=perf;action=display;num=1083972817;start=3

As for scales...

Scales dont help with hand strength at all. Scales are extremely critical for two things. Coordination. By doing scales hands together you develop coordination of the hands since they both perform different movements while playing the same thing at the same time. Also they are critical for understanding music in general. If you know what your scales and chords look like on the keyboard like the back of your hand, as well aas on paper you can easily pick apart thousands of compositions with ease since they all contain the scales you study. It is also critical in order to improvise, compose and sight read.

[Spatula]

Are these Dohnanyi stuff kinda like Hanon?  Never heard of Dohnanyi...sounds kinda indian or something 

Ummm yeah 

[Antnee]

No but to give you some idea...


Take the diminished seventh chord... in c

C D-sharp F-sharp G and C

Now take your first finger and hit the C ten times. Then press the other four fingers simultaneously ten times on the other notes while keeping your first finger on C depressed the whle time. Then it moves to the second finger. Press your second finger down ten times while holding the other four still, then hold the second finger still and press the other four. So on and so forth. This is a simple 'version' of one type of the many exercises in his book and they can get wickedly difficult and frustrating, but the thing that makes him worthwhile is you start to see results extremely quickly. And his preface makes much more sense than Hanon's.

-Tony-

[Motrax]

I too recommend Dohnanyi excercises. They are absolutely amazing... not only do they help with finger strength, but they help in general with accuracy, because you just have more control over everything. I started them At the beginning of September, and the amount I've improved due to these excercises is phenominal.

I also suggest playing chromatic scales using only fingers 3, 4, and 5 to strengthen the weaker fingers on both hands. This isn't Dohnanyi, but it's similar in effect to his excercises. I've found it to be useful.

Here's a link to another topic about this (the one Tony gave seems to not work... maybe it's just me).

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4278.0.html

You can probably get the excercises at most music stores. If not, they might have them on amazon, and they certainly have them at some other sheet music sights. I very, very highly recommend them.

[Spatula]

OHOH !

I did those before! My piano teacher taught me those (even though I found those absolutely boring) but they work!

I just didn't know what they were called.   

HELL YEAH I TAKE BACK MY STATEMENT HANON GO SUK ON YOUR FINGERS!

[BoliverAllmon]

pischna has alot of the same ideas in his exercises.

[jazzyprof]

I wonder about this emphasis on gaining finger strength.  Are the piano keys that heavy?   If one is properly applying arm weight and letting gravity do its work, does one need fingers of steel to play piano? 

[BoliverAllmon]

I don't care what anyone says you have to have some finger strength. Yes, you need to let gravity do most of the work, but you still need strong fingers to hold up the weight and to play fast passages. You can't move your wrist and arm into enough different positions during fast passages. In fact, you can't move your wrist period to move from a closed chord into a real stretched chord. You need finger strength.

boliver

[Piazzo22]

I don't care what anyone says you have to have some finger strength. Yes, you need to let gravity do most of the work, but you still need strong fingers to hold up the weight and to play fast passages. You can't move your wrist and arm into enough different positions during fast passages. In fact, you can't move your wrist period to move from a closed chord into a real stretched chord. You need finger strength.

boliver

I agree. That´s why old teachers like von Bülow recommended practicing fortíssimo (HS to avoid getting deaf  ), they  recommended  using a mute keyboard to do mechanical workout.

[bernhard]

I don't care what anyone says you have to have some finger strength. Yes, you need to let gravity do most of the work, but you still need strong fingers to hold up the weight and to play fast passages. You can't move your wrist and arm into enough different positions during fast passages. In fact, you can't move your wrist period to move from a closed chord into a real stretched chord. You need finger strength.

boliver

Perhaps you should care.

Normally I would not bother with someone who does not care (there is little point). However, since already misinformed people are agreeing with you, I would like to point out this:

  THERE ARE NO MUSCLES IN THE FINGERS

Therefore, you cannot build, develop or train finger strength.

You can develop forearm strength, you can develop upper arm strength, you can develop shoulder strength, you can develop core strength. All of which are important and have their place.

But you cannot develop something that does not exist in the first place.

Old teachers like von Bulow were simply ignorant of anatomy. So whatever instruction they may have left us must be carefully evaluated in view of their ignorance and our present knowledge. Simply you cannot take their words at face value.

In the meantime, get yourself a book of anatomy and be one step ahead of old ignorant masters. (Have a look here for a preview:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4145.msg38568.html#msg38568

And dig all of xvimbi’s old posts you can find, they have a wealth of information that you ignore at your own risk).

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

i have been playing for 12 years done my exams and, i do well, play big pieces, practice scales half an hour every day, my piano has stiff keys so my fingers get a good workout, but the biggest problem is my fingers just dont move, how can i strengthen my fingers? is it the way i practice my scales? do i practice them wrong? my teacher wont let me do any etudes until i can play my scales properly 
HELP!  

Meanwhile let us look at the original question, shall we?

Musical fingers claims to have been practising the piano for 12 years.  Yet his/her fingers cannot move.

S/he practises scales ½ hour everyday, and yet her teacher will not let him/her to do exercises because the scales are still not good enough.

Then a whole load of people suggest that s/he do exercises! For crying out loud!!! What are you trying to do guys? interfere in the teacher/studnet relationship?

Now, how come someone has not mastered 24 scales after 12 years practising them ½ hour a day?

How come this teacher “will not let him/her to do  exercises?” Do they live together? How does the teacher controls Musical fingers to this degree? I certainly would be interested to know, I could use some of this technology.

Pulease!


By the way, I am selling a book that teaches humans how to fly by flapping his/her arms vigorously. Anyone interested?


Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[BoliverAllmon]

sarcasm is flowing in this thread. Maybe you should read an anatomy book. your fingers do have muscles and they can and should be developed.

boliver

[bernhard]

sarcasm is flowing in this thread. Maybe you should read an anatomy book. your fingers do have muscles and they can and should be developed.

boliver

STOP PRESS STOP PRESS STOP PRESS

Professor Allmon has made the most significant anatomical discovery of the last 300 years!

Contrary to what every medical student has learned so far, and every anatomist believed,  fingers actually do have muscles:

“They must be trained and developed!” urges the professor.

 


Er…
 
I actually have read a number of anatomical textbooks, including specific ones for hand surgical reconstruction. I have watched dissections and watched videos and DVDS of dissections of the hand and playing apparatus. I have summarised some of this information - as well as some of the consequences for piano playing -  in the thread posted above, which apparently you didn’t bother to read (let me guess: Your trumpet teacher assured you that there are muscles in the fingers – and word from on high is enough for you).

But who knows? Maybe I am wrong (it would not be the first time ).

So could you please provide the title, author, publisher and the page of the anatomy book where  muscles in the fingers are described and named?

I would be most interested in that information.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[BoliverAllmon]

if you want to get so freakin technical you have tendons in the fingers, but have lots of muscles in the hands AND THEY ARE USED DURING PIANO PLAYING. I don't know what your freakin problem is. Dude, I walk in here a week or so ago and everyone is worshipping you like God, i ask some questions and you sit there from your throne on high and take offense to it. GEEZ!

i said that i was asking around about hanon. I knew that there were 2 different sides. I was just informing you what my theory teacher said.

boliver

[faulty_damper]

There are muscles in the fingers, Bernhard!  How else do the fingers move?  Certainly it can't be that the muscles that control the movements of the fingers are found primarily in the forearm.  It can't be that the forearms burn after repeated use of the fingers to clutch an object very tightly...

Now for the reality:

I'm just testing these new features everyone is enjoying. [/glow]

[/tt]
Cool, huh?
^{Super Script!}_{Sub Script!}

[Rob47]

pischna has alot of the same ideas in his exercises.

I too recommend Pischna, but generally it's a good idea to rely on musical excercises like etudes instead of formal technical excercise.

If there's no etude for a specific technical problem you have, identify the problem and make up your own etude to practice it.  However Chopin's etudes generally cover any problems you may have, and Godowsky will take care of your left hand.

your friend
Rob

[BoliverAllmon]

EAT MY POO GOD!!!!!

https://web.ask.com/redir?bpg=http%3a%2f%2fweb.ask.com%2fweb%3fq%3dfinger%2bmuscles%26o%3d0%26page%3d1&q=finger+muscles&u=http%3a%2f%2ftm.wc.ask.com%2fr%3ft%3dan%26s%3da%26uid%3d001255A959BCDE714%26sid%3d12EBB5A959BCDE714%26qid%3d432D05E800CA2C4C87B5EC440FC2BA83%26io%3d0%26sv%3dz6f5372f2%26o%3d0%26ask%3dfinger%2bmuscles%26uip%3dc6d87302%26en%3dte%26eo%3d-100%26pt%3dWrist%2band%2bhand%2bmodule%253a%2bMuscles%253a%2bShort%2bfinger%2bmuscles%26ac%3d18%26qs%3d0%26pg%3d1%26ep%3d1%26te_par%3d102%26te_id%3d%26u%3dhttp%3a%2f%2fwww.dartmouth.edu%2f%7eanatomy%2fwrist-hand%2fmuscles%2fintrinsic3.html&s=a&bu=http%3a%2f%2fwww.dartmouth.edu%2f%7eanatomy%2fwrist-hand%2fmuscles%2fintrinsic3.html&qte=0&o=0&abs=Intrinsic+muscles+of+the+hand+%26%23151%3b+short+finger+muscles.++Master+Muscle+List%3a+Click+to+learn+more+about+these+muscles+...+lumbricals+...+dorsal...&tit=Wrist+and+hand+module%3a+Muscles%3a+Short+finger+muscles&bin=&cat=wp&purl=http%3a%2f%2ftm.wc.ask.com%2fi%2fb.html%3ft%3dan%26s%3da%26uid%3d001255A959BCDE714%26sid%3d12EBB5A959BCDE714%26qid%3d432D05E800CA2C4C87B5EC440FC2BA83%26io%3d%26sv%3dz6f5372f2%26o%3d0%26ask%3dfinger%2bmuscles%26uip%3dc6d87302%26en%3dbm%26eo%3d-100%26pt%3d%26ac%3d24%26qs%3d0%26pg%3d1%26u%3dhttp%3a%2f%2fmyjeeves.ask.com%2faction%2fsnip&Complete=1

[Spatula]

?

[bernhard]

if you want to get so freakin technical you have tendons in the fingers, but have lots of muscles in the hands AND THEY ARE USED DURING PIANO PLAYING. I don't know what your freakin problem is. Dude, I walk in here a week or so ago and everyone is worshipping you like God, i ask some questions and you sit there from your throne on high and take offense to it. GEEZ!

i said that i was asking around about hanon. I knew that there were 2 different sides. I was just informing you what my theory teacher said.

boliver

What is MY problem?

What is YOUR problem?

You walk in this forum one week ago, say a lot of crap and expect not to be called into account? You tell ME that there are muscles in the fingers and go on to tell ME to read an anatomy book? When YOU cannot even tell the difference between the bones of the hand and the bones of the fingers (see below)?

There are a lot of beginners who actually read this stuff and may believe in it. So you (or anyone else for that matter) say something wrong, you will be corrected (and not necessarily by me).

As for eating your poo. Eat it yourself.

Is your ignorance so abysmal that you cannot even decipher an anatomical diagram? Can't you tell from looking at a picture which are the bones of the hand and the bones of the fingers - even though there are captions? - The site you posted shows very clearly that there are no muscles in the fingers (the muscles showed: interossei and lumbricales are in the hand, not in the fingers). Better get a plate and a spoon...
 
This has really got embarrassing for you now . Whatever credibility you might have had you buried. Deep.  :'(If I were you, I would go and practice some Hanon. For the next 50 years.

Good bye, farewell.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Spatula]

if you want to get so freakin technical you have tendons in the fingers, but have lots of muscles in the hands AND THEY ARE USED DURING PIANO PLAYING. I don't know what your freakin problem is. Dude, I walk in here a week or so ago and everyone is worshipping you like God, i ask some questions and you sit there from your throne on high and take offense to it. GEEZ!

i said that i was asking around about hanon. I knew that there were 2 different sides. I was just informing you what my theory teacher said.

boliver

What is MY problem?

What is YOUR problem?


As for eating your poo. Eat it yourself.

Good bye, farewell.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

I didn't even click on the poo link because im at a college library....

I know the phalanxes or whatever are the finger bones...
connected to the knee bone...

yeah...

Btw....wow you really did vent a boliver (not that I'm gonna say anything) just like comme le vent.  or actually I never really did see what you did say to comme.. 

Um...yeah I'm your friend Bernhard....    

[Rob47]

Wow!

I respect both Bernhard and Boliver but never saw this coming! It's a battle of senior members!

And what the hell is that link? I'm not going to click on it but holy sh*t no pun intended!

your friend
Rob

[xvimbi]

No need to get all pumped up, gentlemen. Let's call it a tie, but I have to get "freakin' technical" to explain why. The "fingers" freakin' technically start at the wrist, so any muscle that is in the palm can be considered "in the fingers". However, when we consider the common definition of "finger", i.e. the thingies emanating from the knuckles, then we don't find any muscles in them. The muscles that move the fingers are indeed mostly located in the forearm. Those are the ones that are important for "finger strength". The lumbricales and interossei do assist a bit in both abduction and extension, but this is practically negligible compared to the forearm muscles. They do play a role in the lateral movement of the fingers from the knuckles, but they are not involved in "finger strength". The thumb and the pinky are exceptions. The attached muscles in the palm are indeed very powerful.

Having said this, "finger strength" is not important for playing the piano! Any healthy person has enough strength, perhaps even enough to play Rach3 three times in a row. What is much more important is coordination. If one cannot play scales after 12 years, it is not because of lacking finger strength; it is because of lacking coordination, i.e lacking technique. Granted, the muscles that move the fingers develop over years of piano playing, and this might give a sense of security, but it is a false sense. There are many ten-year olds that can play highly virtuosic pieces (including all 24 scales), and they certainly don't have nearly as much finger strength as a 30-year old. QED!

Now, regarding the exercises that were mentioned, I must seriously warn everybody to do them. Any exercise that calls upon pressing down fingers and to keep them still while others are playing is a sure way to injury. Any teacher who forces students to do them needs to be expelled from the profession. There are many such exercises in the "repertoire", i.e. some of the Schmitt or Dohnanyi exercises, and they are all ill-advised and dangerous. It freaks me out if an exercise prescribes to hold down the fourth finger while the fifth is playing and the other way around. Generally, static force (to hold the fingers down) and then applying additional force on top of them (the other fingers are playing), while the additional force is partially working against the static force combines two of the four most fundamental causes of injuries in piano playing. There is nothing wrong with doing this occasionally in the context of a piece, but if you are doing this repeatedly for a long time you better find a good orthopedic surgeon right away.

[Antnee]

I Agree with Xvimbi. Although I was the one who originally recommended Dohnanyi I probably shoud have pointed out that I only used him to help me with certain parts in a beethoven sonata and only used him for about a month. I really haven' t taken him back out since. But he is never the less good to some extent. I know of some people that have used them. I belive Koji said he did them when he was younger and that it helped him a lot.

As for Boliver and Bernhard...
Boliver, you should know better... haven't you ever heard of the freaky trick thing people do? Hold you hand in piano playing position on a table and move one of the fingers (four works best). can you see the muscle moving back by the elbow? ALL the way back there? Yup that's moving your finger.

Original poster...

I guess I should have tried to decipher you post a bit more... ( it's hard!)

I guess what you are asking is how to play scales properly then right?

PS -Bernhard, that book on flying sounds interesting, but I wonder if flapping repeatedly could cause some sort of injury??   

[glBelgedin]

PS -Bernhard, that book on flying sounds interesting, but I wonder if flapping repeatedly could cause some sort of injury??

Not if you flap high and with precision.

[Piazzo22]

Oh, I wish I would have better english to make this clear!
There are muscles literally in the fingers, these are the lumbricals that flexes and mantain straight  the distal falanges (you know, when your teacher says you must not collapse them, is a matter of strength in the lumbricals).
To play the piano, the most important muscles are not in the arm, but in hand. They are the interosseous muscles,  each finger has a palmar and a dorsal interossei to abduct and extend the fingers from each other. But when used at the same time they have enough strenght to flex the Metacarpo-phalangeal joint (knuckles), where activity  of the fingers start. That´s what we use to get those keys down, you feel a little rapid impulse in your palm where the articulation is. That´s what we need to develop, those muscles must be strong enough to respond as fastest as possible. Your arm´s muscles move too, but they doesn´t matter really, unless you are playing using to much your flexors. Extensors in the arm should be excercised too so we can lift our fingers in fast playing if necessary (not common).

So the most important muscles to play the piano are the interrossei. That´s what independence excercises are for, not to press down with your arm, but to mantain your fingers down with your palm muscles (interossei) and not with your flexors (arm muscles).

Our past pianists didn´t have to know anatomy to notice there was an improvement if they excercised their finger´s strenght.

Do this test to discover the exact location of those hand muscles.  extend your fingers in the air and  start to flex a finger, with straight joints, to your palm (like if it were doing abdominals.), . Do it  for a moment, and you will begin to feel muscular pain right in your palm, that´s the dorsal interossei muscle for that finger. You need to strenghten that.

[Piazzo22]

I´ve just found a website were that is explained.  It´s not a thing I invented, it is known by the best teachers.

https://www.jazclass.aust.com/piano/default.htm#03

[CC]

You don't get speed with muscle; strength is not equal to speed.  Mozart, Liszt, Chopin, etc., were farthest from he-men. A sumo wrestler is slower than most midgets. A fast Samurai is not built like a sumo wrester.  If you want speed, practice for speed, not muscle.

Exercises are the worst things for speed. Of course, a beginning amateur will need to practice SOMETHING in order to get some speed, but you are not a beginner any more, so you shouldn't practice like one, and fingers can move only so fast and you can't physically accelerate them to the speeds needed to play fast -- IT IS A PHYSICAL IMPOSSIBILITY.  So why even try?  Exercises, especially FF on heavy pianos will only get you muscle bound with too much flexor muscles and not enough extensors.  So you have already broken 3 of the most important rules for speed: (1) heavy piano action, (2) exercises, and (3) no etudes.  Those are the 3 worst things you could ever have done, and so you naturally are suffering the consequences -- no surprise at all!

If you want speed, get a lighter piano, even a digital; but, of course, nothing beats a properly regulated grand. Then learn the use of parallel sets (link below section II.11). Don't play FF until you can play fast. Then learn to accelerate hand, arm, motions so that you can combine them with small, slower finger motions in order to produce speed. Most people concentrate on finger speed and completely neglect the fact that the hands and arms are much slower than they can be.  Needless to say, learn to play relaxed (another reason for using light piano and no FF).  Needless to say, all speed work should be HS until speed is reached of exceeded.  If you do these things, you will at least GET STARTED in the right direction and have a chance at success.  There is, of course, a lot more.  

[Piazzo22]

If you play relaxed, playing FF will not get your flexors bigger, but your interosseous.
And in piano playing we all have the speed when we begin, but we are looking for control (exact timing of the fingers one after another) and this is achieved when you need less muscular effort to do something (strenght).

[xvimbi]

I´ve just found a website were that is explained.  It´s not a thing I invented, it is known by the best teachers.
https://www.jazclass.aust.com/piano/default.htm#03

The view of using the muscles for piano playing that is described on this web site has been discredited countless times. There is no such thing as isolating hand muscles from forearm muscles. Furthermore, it is well possible to use forearm muscles and still have a supple wrist. One does not preclude the other. The lumbricales and interossei do get stronger over time, automatically, but they still only play a minor role in piano playing.

There is a quote on this website that should wake up anybody: "It now becomes clear that in order to develop a good finger technique on the piano it is necessary to reverse nature".

This is at best misleading and at worst dangerous. One must work WITH nature, not against it. This is true for any activity. If one works against nature, one will have to suffer the consequences. There are countless examples for that, e.g. from gynmnastics (well, any kind of high-power athletics really), acrobatics, everyday work places, etc.

It is straightforward to develop good piano technique by working WITH nature. There are only two things that make this difficult: a) most people don't have an idea about how the human playing apparatus actually works, and they don't bother to look into it. They also don't know how the piano works, and they don't bother to look into that either. b) There are too many myths that lead in the wrong direction, and - again - people don't bother to question them.

That's why most pianists have injuries.

[BoliverAllmon]

having muscles does not cause slowness. Look at football players. Running backs can be 200 + lbs. of pure speed. Probably could out run all of us. Sumo Wrestlers are a bad example. They are fat and therefore immobile. Heavy action keys are a very good way to accomplish faster speeds. Any runner who is looking to get faster implements some sort of resistance to his running. Whether that resistance comes from a running chute, pulling a tire, or some other form they do it. Look at the olympic runners. THe short distance runners are really muscular. The thing you just have to do is stretch and continue to play and move.

by the way the link was a caption of muscles of the hands. WHICH I MENTIONED IN THE POST PREVIOUSLY BERNHARD.

what did you mean about what I said to comme? Not really sure of what you are talking about.

I am willing to back up anything I said. I said from the beginning that I was inquiring and getting all sides of the arguement.

Hey God post one of your million links that praise yourself and show me where your teaching credentials are and what you have accomplished as one?

boliver

[BoliverAllmon]

Having said this, "finger strength" is not important for playing the piano! Any healthy person has enough strength, perhaps even enough to play Rach3 three times in a row.

then why do the greats still get injured or simply tired from playing this piece once?

[BoliverAllmon]

oh and i really don't care where you decide the muscles actually originate. They end in the fingers and they need to be strong and fast.

boliver

[jazzyprof]

I´ve just found a website were that is explained.  It´s not a thing I invented, it is known by the best teachers.
https://www.jazclass.aust.com/piano/default.htm#03

That's why most pianists have injuries.

Great post, xvimbi.  If one takes the view that "in order to develop good finger technique on the piano it is necessary to reverse nature" then it is easy to begin to treat the keyboard as some sort of gymnasium attached to a musical instrument.  Since athletes develop muscle strength by lifting weights why don't we just hang weights from our fingers and slowly lift and lower them to build up those mythical "finger muscles".  Schumann tried to reverse nature by devising a contraption to hold his fourth finger immobile while the others played.  He ended up with a paralysed right hand.  And in an insane asylum . 

[BoliverAllmon]

slow moving promotes sluggishness. You need speed and control. That is why a heavy piano does the trick. When you go back to a lighter piano, your fingers will fly like a mad man.

[jazzyprof]

slow moving promotes sluggishness. You need speed and control. That is why a heavy piano does the trick. When you go back to a lighter piano, your fingers will fly like a mad man.

The reason your fingers seem to fly like mad when you go to a lighter piano after playing on a heavier action piano is not that you have developed awesome "finger" muscles.  It has to do with a basic physics principle, Newton's Law: F=ma (Force equals mass times acceleration).  On a heavier action piano you applied a certain force to a heavy mass to get a certain acceleration.  If you now come to a lighter piano action (smaller mass m) if you apply the same force you will have much greater acceleration.  That's why your fingers seem to fly.

[BoliverAllmon]

really? HMMM..... NO JOKE. You cannot learn to apply that force unless you are required to, hence the heavier piano. if i could just tell my fingers, arms, and hands to simply "apply more force" I would be instantly able to play faster that cziffra, but that isn't the case.

[glBelgedin]

Boliver what you've just described is the old "two-bats" idea. In Baseball a batter will swing multiple bats or a weighted bat in order make the original bat seem lighter. This works, but it is temporary, and doesn't last longer than his turn at bat. What you suggest is everytime we feel sluggish is go play on a heavy action piano, and then run back and play on our light action piano. I'm sorry, but that is one crutch I don't really want.

[BoliverAllmon]

actually, i played baseball and we learn to swing harder and faster, by swinging a weighted bat. You warm up with 2 bats, to loosen up the muscles.

boliver

[xvimbi]

then why do the greats still get injured or simply tired from playing this piece once?

They get physically tired from the whole-body experience. It is not their fingers that get tired. They get injured because they don't know how to use their body properly (over two thirds of all pianists have injuries).

I had been rock climbing for quite some time before I started to play the piano seriously. I had tremendous finger strength, yet I couldn't play anything fast. Many adult beginners have much more finger strength than a 14-year old who can play Fantaisie Impromptu, yet can't play a pentatonic scale. Likewise, there are many extremely strong people who couldn't climb a simple route. In both cases, it is much more important to develop a good sense of coordination and a good body map.

Don't tell me Martha Argerich has more finger strength than me, yet I wouldn't even begin to dream to play as fast as she does (did).

Just opening your eyes and looking at the simple statistics of the issue, and the combined experience of many pianists for generations, should make you suspicious as to the validity of your claims. Believe what you want. If it gets you where you want to go, it obviously works for you. Don't be surprised, though, when you get injured. Good luck!

[BoliverAllmon]

first i won't get injured. Secondly, you must have strength for increased speed. I am not talking about building up your fingers and hands so that you can crush bricks with one hand or anything. I am talking about the ability to make x amount of force to cause greater acceleration. You have to train to accomplish this. every other sport, or physical activities that are done in a professional way work out, or do some sort of exercises to help them perform better. a pitcher doesn't just throw a baseball to get better. He also throws a football (which is heavier and will help him increase speed with his fastball) works out, and runs all over the place. Golfer's work out there legs and torso religiously to increase strength and speed to achieve greater drives and club control. why should we be different?

[BoliverAllmon]

If you think about it you even advocate exercises. you all advocate/copy God's instruction on faster playing. You practice and exercise your fingers at speeds that are 130% greater. why do you do this? to learn to achieve greater force and therefore the capability of playing at full tempo.

boliver

[xvimbi]

first i won't get injured.

You can only hope for yourself that you are right. You seem to be very convinced of yourself.

Secondly, you must have strength for increased speed. I am not talking about building up your fingers and hands so that you can crush bricks with one hand or anything. I am talking about the ability to make x amount of force to cause greater acceleration. You have to train to accomplish this. every other sport, or physical activities that are done in a professional way work out, or do some sort of exercises to help them perform better. a pitcher doesn't just throw a baseball to get better. He also throws a football (which is heavier and will help him increase speed with his fastball) works out, and runs all over the place. Golfer's work out there legs and torso religiously to increase strength and speed to achieve greater drives and club control. why should we be different?

There is a major flaw in your thinking. Baseball batters and golfers build up strength so that they can hit a ball farther. More force means more acceleration means more distance. In piano playing, we are not interested in pushing the key down further (the keybed prevents you from doing that). It is also not the goal to accelerate them more (this means a louder sound, which is not what we are talking about). The keys themselves are being pressed down with very little force, not matter what the speed is. What you really need to do in order to increase speed is to improve the coordination between successive fingers as well as work on hand and arm movements, which get your fingers to the keys in the first place. Once your fingers are where they need to be, you press down on the keys with a force that any six-year old can generate. No additional finger strength needed. If anything, you need to work on those muscles that move your shoulders, arms and hands. CC expressed this very nicely in his post, but it was apparently drowned out.

[Piazzo22]

I´ve just found a website were that is explained.  It´s not a thing I invented, it is known by the best teachers.
https://www.jazclass.aust.com/piano/default.htm#03

The view of using the muscles for piano playing that is described on this web site has been discredited countless times. There is no such thing as isolating hand muscles from forearm muscles. Furthermore, it is well possible to use forearm muscles and still have a supple wrist. One does not preclude the other. The lumbricales and interossei do get stronger over time, automatically, but they still only play a minor role in piano playing.

There is a quote on this website that should wake up anybody: "It now becomes clear that in order to develop a good finger technique on the piano it is necessary to reverse nature".

This is at best misleading and at worst dangerous. One must work WITH nature, not against it. This is true for any activity. If one works against nature, one will have to suffer the consequences. There are countless examples for that, e.g. from gynmnastics (well, any kind of high-power athletics really), acrobatics, everyday work places, etc.

It is straightforward to develop good piano technique by working WITH nature. There are only two things that make this difficult: a) most people don't have an idea about how the human playing apparatus actually works, and they don't bother to look into it. They also don't know how the piano works, and they don't bother to look into that either. b) There are too many myths that lead in the wrong direction, and - again - people don't bother to question them.

That's why most pianists have injuries.

With "reversing nature" he means you need to start you hand muscles as the primary source of movement, and not your arm muscles.
Naturally in our daily lives we grab things with great strenght in our arm muscles.
So we should reverse nature by playing mostly with our hands.
I don´t know how are you all so afraid of hurting yourselves. It´s changing what muscles you use, obviously at the begining you will not have enough force to play with control.

And yes, Martha Argerich has greater strenght in her fingers than you. Don´t have to be a genius to know that. Just look at her  hands while playing, and listen.

[BoliverAllmon]

first i won't get injured.

You can only hope for yourself that you are right. You seem to be very convinced of yourself.

Secondly, you must have strength for increased speed. I am not talking about building up your fingers and hands so that you can crush bricks with one hand or anything. I am talking about the ability to make x amount of force to cause greater acceleration. You have to train to accomplish this. every other sport, or physical activities that are done in a professional way work out, or do some sort of exercises to help them perform better. a pitcher doesn't just throw a baseball to get better. He also throws a football (which is heavier and will help him increase speed with his fastball) works out, and runs all over the place. Golfer's work out there legs and torso religiously to increase strength and speed to achieve greater drives and club control. why should we be different?

There is a major flaw in your thinking. Baseball batters and golfers build up strength so that they can hit a ball farther. More force means more acceleration means more distance. In piano playing, we are not interested in pushing the key down further (the keybed prevents you from doing that). It is also not the goal to accelerate them more (this means a louder sound, which is not what we are talking about). The keys themselves are being pressed down with very little force, not matter what the speed is. What you really need to do in order to increase speed is to improve the coordination between successive fingers as well as work on hand and arm movements, which get your fingers to the keys in the first place. Once your fingers are where they need to be, you press down on the keys with a force that any six-year old can generate. No additional finger strength needed. If anything, you need to work on those muscles that move your shoulders, arms and hands. CC expressed this very nicely in his post, but it was apparently drowned out.

the farther the ball goes is a direct coorelation to how fast they swung. No, we aren't pushing the keys farther down. Instead we need speed to go down scale passages with great speed. Look at Rubinstein's hands. They look like bricks, very strong and sturdy. i agree Argerich has very strong hands also.

boliver

[mound]

If you think about it you even advocate exercises. you all advocate/copy God's instruction on faster playing. You practice and exercise your fingers at speeds that are 130% greater. why do you do this? to learn to achieve greater force and therefore the capability of playing at full tempo.

boliver

No, that is not the reason for it, it has nothing to do with force or exercising whatsoever. It has to do with the fact that you will be naturally inclined to slow down once you start dealing with the coordination of putting your hands together, and so if HS is perfected at 130% of target speed, when you do put your hands together and experience that natural slowdown, it will be a slow-down to target speed.  (So you were correct in saying that it is to achieve the capability of playing at full tempo, but it has nothing to do with increasing force produced by your fingers.)  I dare say you can play louder, faster and smoother arpeggios with fuller tone strictly through proper use of arm weight and forearm/wrist motion  than you ever could using your fingers alone. The other rationale for practicing for speed first is so that you know the hand motions that will be required to play at speed (motions, not force) which you then replicate while practicing in slow motion, rather than practicing slowly with motions that will only work for slow play, and will create a speed wall when you try to speed it up.

Force never enters the picture, not from within the fingers themselves that is (regardless if there are muscles in the fingers or not.) The force is merely transfered through your fingers to the keys, it is not generated by them, or at least, it shoudn't be.  In fact the fastest passages where you are dealing with, as Chang describes, "Parallel sets" you are merely hitting every note at once (a chord) and then slowing it down by slightly delaying the time at which each finger drops (through gravity and wrist motion) into the note.  Chang calls it "phase angle", Bernhard calls it "wiggling your wrist".. Again, no force from the fingers at all.

Sorry to jump into this thread, I find it highly amusing.. It was great to see Bernhard start throwing punches       

-Paul

[BoliverAllmon]

I dare say you can play louder, faster and smoother arpeggios with fuller tone strictly through proper use of arm weight and forearm/wrist motion  than you ever could using your fingers alone

I never said not to use arms. I just am saying you can't play without moving your fingers quickly. Check the infamous ziff improv vid and watch his fingers. They are definately moving. Check alot of the vids there. There is signifcant finger movement going on. Speed and agility is needed to accomplish this.

Sorry to jump into this thread, I find it highly amusing.. It was great to see Bernhard start throwing punches

yes continue your worship.

[mound]

I never said not to use arms. I just am saying you can't play without moving your fingers quickly. Check the infamous ziff improv vid and watch his fingers. They are definately moving. Check alot of the vids there. There is signifcant finger movement going on. Speed and agility is needed to accomplish this.

You are absolutely right, speed and agility, not strength. The fingers are moving quickly, but they are just acting as targets for the force/impuse that's generated in his core and arms.

yes continue your worship.

I don't worship anybody or anything. I've given an honest effort at trying what he suggests for myself, and have found that it works quite well.  Have you or are you just dismissing what he says because nobody else is? 

-Paul

[BoliverAllmon]

i don't dismiss a majority of what he says. I just disagree on a few details. THese details that God deems important and takes offense if you think, inquire, or hypothesize otherwise.

boliver

[mound]

i don't dismiss a majority of what he says. I just disagree on a few details. THese details that God deems important and takes offense if you think, inquire, or hypothesize otherwise.

boliver

Show me where he took offense. And calling him "God" is just rediculous.