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What does it read: D or D bemol?

D
0 (0%)
D bemol
1 (100%)
(2nd) C
0 (0%)
(2nd) C bemol
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 1



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Topic: What does it read: D or D bemol?  (Read 4043 times)

Offline mussels_with_nutella

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What does it read: D or D bemol?
on: August 26, 2013, 12:45:30 PM
I am learning the third libestraum from Liszt. I am doing fairly well until now (not inclusive haha).
In this passage, it makes something that sounds strange to me. It's in the 2nd and 4th bar - left hand.

The second note is a D (Re) bemol. And the 6th and 8th notes are... That's the question. D (Re)? Or D (Re) bemol?

Liszt used to put every bemol and sharp in every note it required, even when it was unnecesary for existing one before...

In the second image i have another doubt. It is, this time, with C. C bemol, or just C? In the 3rd note we have C bemol, and the pattern makes logic a natural C at the 9th note... but it hasn't a natural!!! and the rest of notes, when required, has... and with G happens the same after some notes, in that bar. And it's not a typingmistake because when the same pattern happens afterwards with C again, it happens in the same way. And with G... but, however, does'nt happen with the left hand... What's happening here?!?!
Should I read it just following the 'reading-rules'? Or should I choose the pattern i consider more natural to me, and kick Liszt (or whoever evil typewriter) away? xD

Many thanks!!!!

:D
Learning:
Liszt's 3rd Liebestraum

When a man is in despair, it means that he still believes in something
Shostakovic

Offline j_menz

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Re: What does it read: D or D bemol?
Reply #1 on: August 26, 2013, 11:41:10 PM
In the first example the d is given a b sign in the second and fourth bars as a courtesy (Db in the key sig, but Dnatural in the preceding bars.  So, it's Db throughout the 2nd and 4th bars.

Liszt doesn't put in  accidentals unless they are needed or unless they are a "courtesy" accidental (a "reminder", if you will.
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline mussels_with_nutella

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Re: What does it read: D or D bemol?
Reply #2 on: August 27, 2013, 10:50:17 AM
Thank you very much, j_menz!!!
Then i must suppose that in the second example, i have to follow strictly what Liszt wrote, being C bemol, isn't it? Ok, i continue learning ;) Thanks!
Learning:
Liszt's 3rd Liebestraum

When a man is in despair, it means that he still believes in something
Shostakovic

Offline mussels_with_nutella

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Re: What does it read: D or D bemol?
Reply #3 on: August 27, 2013, 12:31:15 PM
I am still not convinced with 2nd image.
In the second stave (left hand) we have in the key signature bemol for A,B,D,E.
The 3rd note is a Gb. The 8th note is a G (appears without bemol. There was already a bemol before in the bar, so it should be bemol as well). And the 10th note, just 1 different note in the middle, there is a G, with its written bemol!!!! Liszt, you are driving me crazy!
Is it a reminder? Or does it suggest that the 8th note's G must be a natural one?
OH NO!  :'(  :'(  :'(  :'(  :'(
Learning:
Liszt's 3rd Liebestraum

When a man is in despair, it means that he still believes in something
Shostakovic

Offline davidjosepha

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Re: What does it read: D or D bemol?
Reply #4 on: August 27, 2013, 01:30:30 PM
The pattern is the same throughout the entire passage except the very last note. Right hand goes down a major 3rd, up a minor 3rd, down a major 3rd, up a minor 3rd the whole time. Left hand goes up a minor third, down a major third, repeat. You can compare the score to that pattern, and if you find any differences, the score is wrong or you are misreading it.

Offline dima_76557

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Re: What does it read: D or D bemol?
Reply #5 on: August 27, 2013, 01:37:21 PM
The pattern is the same throughout the entire passage except the very last note.

Yes, it's actually a cascade of second inversions of dominant 7th chords over 2 octaves (starting from C7) going down chromatically [and enharmonically] until D7 that then suddenly resolves through D diminished 7) into the dominant of Ab - Eb9 (in the next bar).
No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.

Offline mussels_with_nutella

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Re: What does it read: D or D bemol?
Reply #6 on: August 27, 2013, 01:40:03 PM
Davidjosepha, that is what i thoght. I entered right now to tell that it is a wrong idea.
The thing is that doing that 3 minor intervals the whole time works good for achieving a phantasmagoric descent, and sounds good.
BUT doing it the way Liszt wrote (or the writer miswrote, maybe?), which is a different pattern, but pattern (not some isolated wrong 2 major intervals, the "wrong 2 major intervals" does repeat down the bar) sounds truly better!!!!

So i will play just like the score says: If there was a bemol, the next note MUST be bemol unless there is a #. And all redundant bemols are... welcomed, but ignored xD just to remind ;)
Learning:
Liszt's 3rd Liebestraum

When a man is in despair, it means that he still believes in something
Shostakovic

Offline j_menz

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Re: What does it read: D or D bemol?
Reply #7 on: August 28, 2013, 08:00:59 AM
In the second one the 9th note is C natural.  Badly scored, but the pattern davidjosepha indicates is correct.
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline mussels_with_nutella

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Re: What does it read: D or D bemol?
Reply #8 on: August 31, 2013, 11:42:09 AM
Lang lang plays it as j_menz and davidjosepha said. And some other scores tell to play it that way (one different score tells to play like mine though).
I rely on you ;)
Many thanks!!! :)
Learning:
Liszt's 3rd Liebestraum

When a man is in despair, it means that he still believes in something
Shostakovic
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