The meaning of Chopin's "Funeral March" sonata?

[faulty_damper]

Studying?  That's ridiculous.  You're all just saying that one cannot possibly understand another unless one spends time studying it.  Well then, you must study this reply for months before you truly understand what I mean.   

[awesom_o]

No, studying a work is what we do. I don't know about you, but the rest of us here are musicians. We study other musician's works in order to understand their meaning!

[chicoscalco]

Studying?  That's ridiculous.  You're all just saying that one cannot possibly understand another unless one spends time studying it.  Well then, you must study this reply for months before you truly understand what I mean.   

Man, you are just trying to win the argument now... How in the world was that relevant? There is a difference between a piano masterpiece and a pianostreet reply...

[dima_76557]

I've listened to this sonata countless times by numerous performers and the meaning still isn't obvious.  There's nothing unifying the movements which make its meaning readily apparent.

I think my initial intuitive reply was correct: You need to know more about the culture; listening alone won't help.

Chopin was an East-European who used West-European external forms and adapted, renewed them to fit his internal artistic needs. One cannot completely understand an East-European through West-European eyes. It would therefore be good to see how Chopin's own people look upon who he was and what his art means to them:
https://www.chopin.pl/chopin_start.en.html

Another option would be to take care of a pack of wolves, learn from them, and then gradually come to an intuitive understanding of what this work means, like Helene Grimaud. Just kidding, because judging from the following interview about her recording of the second sonatas by both Chopin and Rachmaninoff, she knows her sources. Please, use 10 minutes of your time to listen to what she has to say:

[j_menz]

Chopin was an East-European

Take care. Chopin was a Pole. Any suggestion that he might be like those further to the east would, I suspect, have upset him.

[dima_76557]

Take care. Chopin was a Pole. Any suggestion that he might be like those further to the east would, I suspect, have upset him.

I think Chopin understood very well what unites them, and what makes them distinct. If he had mentioned explicitly to anybody what any of his works was really about, the Tsar would have boycotted all of his works.

[faulty_damper]

I doubt it's my lack of understanding of 19th century, easter european culture that makes Chopin's sonata rubbish.  He just couldn't write sonatas very well.

[dima_76557]

I doubt it's my lack of understanding of 19th century, easter european culture that makes Chopin's sonata rubbish.  He just couldn't write sonatas very well.

The analog is not perfect, but somehow I pre-feel what would happen to me if I judged in public about anything in the Malaysian culture (that's where you're from right?) without knowing or understanding its roots. Your amateurish judgement about something that you have not yet made your own is simply disgusting and insulting.

[j_menz]

I think Chopin understood very well what unites them, and what makes them distinct. If he had mentioned explicitly to anybody what any of his works was really about, the Tsar would have boycotted all of his works.

So you agree with Schumann on this point but not on the merits of Sonata. 

Personally, I suspect the Czar would have done little more than ask for his brother's ring back.

[dima_76557]

So you agree with Schumann on this point but not on the merits of Sonata.  

Indeed. Chopin's artistic and compositional imagination greatly surpassed Schumann's limited vision. Chopin did not strive to repeat Beethoven. He chose another form and adapted it to his needs, and liberated everybody else after him from a burden they could no longer cope with.

Personally, I suspect the Czar would have done little more than ask for his brother's ring back.

Please open the link to the Polish site and read. Everything is backed up with cited sources that can be verified. It will give you a more complete picture about Chopin and his music.

[j_menz]

Please open the link to the Polish site and read. Everything is backed up with cited sources that can be verified. It will give you a more complete picture about the man and his music.

Any gaps in my understanding of Chopin are unlikely to be filled from the pages of a hagiography. Nor should you assume I am not already familiar with that site.

[kalirren]

He just couldn't write sonatas very well.

You should read Jonathan Oshry's thesis that Dima linked.  It might change your mind on the matter.  EDIT: Never mind, you did read it.  I will not contribute to another thread going in circles.

I agree what Chopin did in Op. 35 is a bit primitive compared to what say, Franck did for the Sonata in A Major, but that comes with being a forerunner of the Romantic era.  Fact is, nearly every major sonata-writer since Haydn has tried to put their own spin on the form.  Beethoven expanded the Coda.  Brahms tries to make a single megatext out of his entire corpus of work.  Liszt tried to blur the distinction between movements.  Schubert tried to integrate sonata form with other forms, like the rondo.  In that context, Chopin's doing away with the first theme in recapitulation is innovative, and distinctively his.  It opens a lot of expressive territory.

[j_menz]

You should read Jonathan Oshry's thesis that Dima linked.  It might change your mind on the matter.  EDIT: Never mind, you did read it.  I will not contribute to another thread going in circles.

I agree what Chopin did in Op. 35 is a bit primitive compared to what say, Franck did for the Sonata in A Major, but that comes with being a forerunner of the Romantic era.  Fact is, nearly every major sonata-writer since Haydn has tried to put their own spin on the form.  Beethoven expanded the Coda.  Brahms tries to make a single megatext out of his entire corpus of work.  Liszt tried to blur the distinction between movements.  Schubert tried to integrate sonata form with other forms, like the rondo.  In that context, Chopin's doing away with the first theme in recapitulation is innovative, and distinctively his.  It opens a lot of expressive territory.

Formally innovative (and I think your grasping at straws a bit on that) is not the same as musically interesting.

Oh, and "Beethoven expanded the Coda" as a summary of his contribution to the history of the sonata must go down as one of the greatest understatement ever. Well done! 

[dima_76557]

Any gaps in my understanding of Chopin are unlikely to be filled from the pages of a hagiography. Nor should you assume I am not already familiar with that site.

Are you sure? We have the benefit of hindsight, which Schumann did not have. Still, you put more emphasis on what Schumann concluded than on what later analists and critics concluded. Schumann explained the structure of Chopin's sonata compared to what Beethoven had done. But Chopin did not intend to copy Beethoven, you see?

[kalirren]

Formally innovative (and I think your grasping at straws a bit on that) is not the same as musically interesting.

No, but it is one of the first things that I happen to notice about a piece, and what sets my anticipation for the rest of the piece when I'm in the middle of listening to it for the first time.  As my friends have told me, though, that's just me.

Oh, and "Beethoven expanded the Coda" as a summary of his contribution to the history of the sonata must go down as one of the greatest understatement ever. Well done! 

Check and mate.   

[j_menz]

Are you sure? We have the benefit of hindsight, which Schumann did not have. Still, you put more emphasis on what Schumann concluded than on what later analists and critics concluded. Schumann explained the structure of Chopin's sonata compared to what Beethoven had done. But Chopin did not intend to copy Beethoven, you see?

I believe I mentioned earlier that Chopin in fact may well have used a Beethoven sonata as a formal model for this sonata. Not slavishly, and certainly without the unifying elements that Beethoven employs. It may also be coincidence, or an unconscious hommage.

I actually put little weight on what Schumann says as  a music critic. In my view, he was often wrong, and capriciously so. I merely used him as an example of someone who could not be dismissed as musically ignorant coming to a conclusion inconsistent with one you claimed was "obvious".

As to the benefit of hindsight. That we do have; but it is Chopin's contemporaries who were best placed to see novelties and to see how novel they were. We have become used to them.

[j_menz]

No, but it is one of the first things that I happen to notice about a piece, and what sets my anticipation for the rest of the piece when I'm in the middle of listening to it for the first time.  As my friends have told me, though, that's just me.

It's not just you. I agree in part. I didn't mean to suggest formal innovations aren't important (or interesting at least as curiosities), merely that the two elements (formal innovation and musical interest) are not interchangeable.

[dima_76557]

As to the benefit of hindsight. That we do have; but it is Chopin's contemporaries who were best placed to see novelties and to see how novel they were. We have become used to them.

I wonder if that is the case. I think it was "too new" to be understood by that conservative bunch of people in those circles. I also seriously question whether Liszt could have written his own Sonata without it, a sonata that was initially accepted even more negatively than Chopin's. Everybody there was stuck into the sonata forms Beethoven had established.

[j_menz]

I wonder if that is the case. I think it was "too new" to be understood by that conservative bunch of people in those circles.

I suspect we have a tendency to think of those circles as conservative, but they really weren't. A lot of musicians around these days, with a love of the classics, are waaay more conservative than the circles Chopin and his circle moved in. The were the enfant terribles of their day. The radicals. Schumann may look like a stuffy old sourpuss, but he was part of that.

I also only meant that they were better placed to recognise what those innovations were, not to assess their importance - where hindsight is most useful.

Everybody there was stuck into the sonata forms Beethoven had established.

32 sonatas, 32 forms.

[dima_76557]

I suspect we have a tendency to think of those circles as conservative, but they really weren't. A lot of musicians around these days, with a love of the classics, are waaay more conservative than the circles Chopin and his circle moved in. The were the enfant terribles of their day. The radicals. Schumann may look like a stuffy old sourpuss, but he was part of that.

Well, one can still be too "conservative" within the boundaries of one's "progressiveness" to see real innovation. They were so "progressive" that nothing outside the Western-European cultural sources (mostly German and English) even seemed to exist, and referred to those sources with great pride and silly quotes. I think this is one of the things in the German culture of "Romanticism" that Chopin really hated. His poetic sources were elsewhere, but still not exclusively limited to "Old Music" or music as such. He didn't want to identify with that kind of "Romanticism", that's why he denied he was "Romantic".

[j_menz]

Well, one can still be too "conservative" within the boundaries of one's "progressiveness" to see real innovation. They were so "progressive" that nothing outside the Western-European cultural sources (mostly German and English) even seemed to exist, and referred to those sources with great pride and silly quotes. I think this is one of the things in the German culture of "Romanticism" that Chopin really hated. His poetic sources were elsewhere, but still not exclusively limited to "Old Music" or music as such. He didn't want to identify with that kind of "Romanticism", that's why he denied he was "Romantic".

And in many ways he was correct to deny it.

Interestingly, the English, the Germans and, in their own way the French, each then (and to some extent still do) believed that there were three levels of culture. Theirs, 'western european" (which includes each others) and (in Kipling's words) "lesser breeds without the law". 

Romanticism was broader than music, and involved in each of these a recognition that they had surpassed their ancestors and an attempt to claim succession from and ownership of tradition. The English claimed Rome, France claimed nature and the Germans claimed mediaeval Christendom (and it's pagan forebears). Chopin stood outside each of those movements.

[faulty_damper]

Since a comparison was made about this sonata in question and one of Beethoven's sonatas, another analogy could be to Beethoven's Op. 111 in C minor.  Notice that the opening octaves of both sonatas are similar as well as the RH chord that immediately follows.  What goes on from there is where it departs in Chopinesque style.

Someone just needs to rewrite this sonata so it sounds better.  Expand/change the main theme or modify the development.  Get rid of/rewrite the useless scherzo.  Write a new slow movement.  Expand/change the finale.  Then this sonata will finally sound good.

[dima_76557]

Romanticism was broader than music, and involved in each of these a recognition that they had surpassed their ancestors and an attempt to claim succession from and ownership of tradition.

Chopin was a Romantic, but he simply didn't need the external sources of fiction by Goethe, Byron, Dante, etc. the others seemed to rely on. He had his own reality and pain to cope with:
1) what was happening to his country
2) being diagnosed by 3 different doctors as either 1) already dead, 2) dying, or 3) going to die
3) other concerns that are irrelevant in the context of this thread

Is it any wonder that the Poet of all poets raises the question: "What is the meaning of death, what is the meaning of loss?" and writes a poem about it in four parts? Dealing with that problem makes life worth living for, and you come out as a better and stronger person. That's the experience the audience is waiting for whenever somebody programs this sonata, and not an exercise in technique, tonal shades, and structural logic in an obsolete form of strictly abstract musical content. He must have been very disappointed that those who claimed to be looking "right" did not see, and those who claimed to be listening "right" did not hear.

[awesom_o]

Someone just needs to rewrite this sonata so it sounds better.  Expand/change the main theme or modify the development.  Get rid of/rewrite the useless scherzo.  Write a new slow movement.  Expand/change the finale.  Then this sonata will finally sound good.

Why don't you step up to the plate and take on this project?
The rest of us are happy playing it the way Chopin wrote it, but you think it's rubbish. Why  not improve it for everyone?

[faulty_damper]

I was thinking about doing that.  I'm not a very good composer by any evaluation but I'm sure given enough time, I'd be able to improve upon its structure, ideas, and musical effect.

[awesom_o]

I was thinking about doing that.  I'm not a very good composer by any evaluation but I'm sure given enough time, I'd be able to improve upon its structure, ideas, and musical effect.

Great! Well, I'm sure whatever you write will be much better than the drivel Chopin managed to come up with! 

Best of luck with the project! I'm looking forward to playing your revised version!

[faulty_damper]

Thanks!  I'm glad you came around to seeing it as pointless drivel as well.  I can't believe it took 100+ replies for you to see the light!

[j_menz]

Chopin ... simply didn't need the external sources of fiction .... He had his own reality and pain to cope with:

Poet ...writes a poem ... That's the experience the audience is waiting for whenever somebody programs this sonata.

So Chopin didn't need external sources, but used one here?   

[awesom_o]

Thanks!  I'm glad you came around to seeing it as pointless drivel as well.  I can't believe it took 100+ replies for you to see the light!

The thing that puzzles me here is this: if you really thought it was just pointless drivel, then there's no way you could be bothered trying to revise it! If I see a steaming pile of crap on the sidewalk, I walk past it. I don't pick it up and mold it with my own hands into something else...

Clearly on some level you consider the piece to be very worthwhile, or you would never have even started this thread!

Good luck! I can't wait to hear the fruits of your labour!

[faulty_damper]

The reason why I started this thread was because so many other people deemed it worthwhile to play.  I do not think this nor have I ever thought this.   The only thing that makes this sonata worth learning is that it is technically easy as well as being fast and loud.  These qualities make it used and abused as a show piece but the musical content is shallow, especially taken as a whole. Easy+fast+loud is an invitation for a lot of musically-degenerate individuals to attempt to play it and then throw in the name of "Chopin" and it's assumed it's worthy of any of his other works.  But, in a previous post, you even state that this sonata is not his best work and say that he's a better miniaturist.  To this I agree.

[awesom_o]

How do you know if it's technically easy if you've never played it?

[chicoscalco]

How do you know if it's technically easy if you've never played it?

Touché. 

[faulty_damper]

I've already mentioned that I've practiced it.  It's technically not complicated and lends itself well to abusive practice regimes that may impress practice room neighbors.

[awesom_o]

Hmm. Well, I've noticed that even the most experienced concert pianists make more than a few slip-offs when playing it in recital!


 You must be really really good! Why don't you post something in the audition room? Surely that would be more fun than what this thread has degenerated into!

[cometear]

This topic really took off in a boom! If I may say my fun little idea on the sonata it's in.

1. I find the first movement to be very shocking. It reminds me of someone realizing they are going to die. Filled with outbursts, goodbyes, tears and laughter.

2. The second movement is more violent in my opinion. It could represent the dying and eventual death of an individual.

3. The third movement really spurred up my idea. The Funeral March would of course be the funeral. I think that's pretty indisputable.

4. My favorite, the fourth movement, could be the separation of body and soul. The soul departs from the grave. It could also be the howling wind around the grave. I absolutely love it. It also sounds very modern.

A wonderful sonata and topic!

[dima_76557]

So Chopin didn't need external sources, but used one here?  

Speed-reading is useful sometimes, j_menz, but not in this case. Allow me to quote myself and underline the part that should not be missed:

didn't need the external sources of fiction by Goethe, Byron, Dante, etc. the others seemed to rely on.

[j_menz]

The Funeral March would of course be the funeral. I think that's pretty indisputable.

Allow me to dispute. 

A Funeral March is from the place of laying in state to the church, and/or from the church to the graveyard.  Not actually the funeral itself.

[dima_76557]

Easy+fast+loud is an invitation for a lot of musically-degenerate individuals to attempt to play it and then throw in the name of "Chopin" and it's assumed it's worthy of any of his other works.

"I know you have your opinion, but mine is right" (c) - 1
"I know you have your opinion, but mine is right" (c) - 2
"I know you have your opinion, but mine is right" (c) - 3+4

[j_menz]

Allow me to quote myself

   The last refuge of the truly desperate.  

and underline the part that should not be missed:

The "etc.".  It seems to have some work to do, which I took to be to expand the list of writers. Do you retract it?

Chopin moved in the same intellectual circles in Paris as the other leading lights of his day. His familiarity with some Polish literature may have been unique, but to suggest that he was not well acquainted with the general reading material of the time is to paint him as a dullard.

[dima_76557]

 The last refuge of the truly desperate.  

The "etc.".  It seems to have some work to do, which I took to be to expand the list of writers. Do you retract it?

Chopin moved in the same intellectual circles in Paris as the other leading lights of his day. His familiarity with some Polish literature may have been unique, but to suggest that he was not well acquainted with the general reading material of the time is to paint him as a dullard.

He pulled his inspiration from his own harsh realities, j_menz. Citing some kind of external source would have meant self-betrayal for someone as proud as he was.

[j_menz]

He pulled his inspiration from his own harsh realities, j_menz. Citing some kind of external source would have meant self-betrayal for someone as proud as he was.

Isn't that the exact opposite to your argument for the source of the Gm Ballade or have I misread you there?

I've never suggested he had an external source here, so not sure what you are getting at.

[dima_76557]

Isn't that the exact opposite to your argument for the source of the Gm Ballade or have I misread you there?

No, because that source by his compatriot affirmed his own reality.

I've never suggested he had an external source here, so not sure what you are getting at.

Please reread the part I wrote about why Chopin is mistakenly believed by some not to be a Romantic. That is the focus I wrote the rest in.

[j_menz]

Please reread the part I wrote about why Chopin is mistakenly believed by some not to be a Romantic. That is the focus I wrote the rest in.

What you wrote actually makes him sound more like a country singer.

[dima_76557]

What you wrote actually makes him sound more like a country singer.

Only if you forget what you cited yourself: the distribution of "cultural ownership" in those circles at that time.

[j_menz]

Only if you forget what you cited yourself: the distribution of "cultural ownership" in those circles at that time.

I'm entirely missing your point, I'm afraid.

[faulty_damper]

"I know you have your opinion, but mine is right" (c) - 1
"I know you have your opinion, but mine is right" (c) - 2
"I know you have your opinion, but mine is right" (c) - 3+4

I fail to see the point you're trying to make.  Are you trying to say that even Rachmaninoff had issues with interpretation with this piece?

Okay, here's a very specific question:
what is up with the main theme in the first movement?  It colors the entire sonata with a useless motive that does nothing.  It's slightly agitated, leads nowhere.

[dima_76557]

I fail to see the point you're trying to make.

It's not me; it's Rachmaninoff making a point. Since words don't convince you, I simply decided to let the music itself speak. If you are a musician, you will understand what he's saying.

[faulty_damper]

I am a musician but what he's saying is gibberish.  Thus, I can't understand what he's saying.

fien wuhe fainv.  woield  di sifne iiion.

^Understand?

[awesom_o]

I am a musician

If you are a musician, then post something in the freaking audition room and stop talking so much $h1t!

[j_menz]

fien wuhe fainv.  woield  di sifne iiion.

I believe you meant "siphne".    Tsk Tsk.