The meaning of Chopin's "Funeral March" sonata?

[faulty_damper]

To awesom_o,
Hmm... let's see how much sh*t you've said in this thread.  You keep attacking me by making insults and insinuations.  Then you want to put me on the spotlight and ignore the questions that I asked.  I'm thinking you don't even know yourself why this piece has musical merit.  Just because you've performed it doesn't mean it's worthy of performance.  Do you think you get merit points because you've performed it?  Do you think your opinion is better than mine because you've performed it?  In both cases, you don't.  In the meanwhile, you've yet to convince me of this work's musical merits.

[faulty_damper]

I believe you meant "siphne".    Tsk Tsk.

 

No, there is no "ph" in the gibberish alphabet. You need to go back to gibberish school.  I can't believe the teachers let you pass.

[faulty_damper]

This topic really took off in a boom! If I may say my fun little idea on the sonata it's in.

1. I find the first movement to be very shocking. It reminds me of someone realizing they are going to die. Filled with outbursts, goodbyes, tears and laughter.

2. The second movement is more violent in my opinion. It could represent the dying and eventual death of an individual.

3. The third movement really spurred up my idea. The Funeral March would of course be the funeral. I think that's pretty indisputable.

4. My favorite, the fourth movement, could be the separation of body and soul. The soul departs from the grave. It could also be the howling wind around the grave. I absolutely love it. It also sounds very modern.

A wonderful sonata and topic!

I don't hear what you're thinking.  The four movements don't sound cohesive to give such an impression of sadness, anger, etc.  The sonata doesn't sound like it's based around the funeral march, either.  I think you're trying too much to add meaning to it when it's not there.

[awesom_o]

Then you want to put me on the spotlight and ignore the questions that I asked.

If you were a musician, you would love being in the spotlight!

And if you were a musician, you wouldn't have to start threads asking people what the meaning of a piece is!

[j_menz]

The sonata doesn't sound like it's based around the funeral march, either. 

If it's based around anything, it's based around the funeral march. This predates the other movements by nearly two years.  I'm not claiming it is, I should point out, but if it has a "centre", that is it.

No, there is no "ph" in the gibberish alphabet. You need to go back to gibberish school.  I can't believe the teachers let you pass.

Evidently US gibberish is lacking in certain spelling refinement, just as your approach to English. And I don't need to go back to school, I'm a native speaker.

[dima_76557]

I am a musician but what he's saying is gibberish.  Thus, I can't understand what he's saying.

Death is as unpredictable as life itself and can't really be captured in rigid forms. When you would expect one thing, suddenly something else happens. It is impossible to "understand" that; one has to accept it to give life itself a deeper meaning.

[j_menz]

Death is as unpredictable as life itself

Not always, apparently.

[cabbynum]

Not always, apparently.

Do you have all of these pictures saved for these occasions? Or do you google them each time it comes up?

[dima_76557]

@ faulty_damper

Death is as unpredictable as life itself and can't really be captured in rigid forms. When you would expect one thing, suddenly something else happens. It is impossible to "understand" that; one has to accept it to give life itself a deeper meaning.

An addition to give a little more focus:
1st movement: revolt, non-acceptance of a hopeless struggle against what is more powerful than mankind;
2nd movement: death playing games of all kinds;
3d movement: humanity in pain and mourning over a loss;
4th movement: wind over the gravestones on a cemetry, playing with the leaves in autumn. One cannot but regret that a beloved one has gone, never to return.

P.S.: I cannot go further, because everything I add would be trivial and silly. Figure it out yourself or leave the piece alone.

[faulty_damper]

If you were a musician, you would love being in the spotlight!

And if you were a musician, you wouldn't have to start threads asking people what the meaning of a piece is!

Ok, I'll return the favor now.  You're an idiot for thinking that.
Analogy: Since you speak, therefore you LOVE to speak publicly and get all kinds of unwanted attention because you're such a gifted speaker.   

Evidently, some people (in this case, you) just like to listen to/play gibberish. The only reason you're even defending this work is because you probably get kudos for play fast and loud.  Oh, and you say it's by Chopin... Ooh la la!   That's why you keep telling the world that you play this work superbly, implying that you play better than anyone before you, i.e. Rubinstein, Rachmaninoff, et al.  (Preemption: Go back and read what you wrote; you made this implication yourself.)

[dima_76557]

@ faulty_damper

Insulting a forum member is not a constructive way to win an argument.

Why not start from the 4th movement? Do you hear impressionism in that part or do you consider it merely as yet another opportunity to play fast? If you don't hear impressionism, how do you handle Debussy then?

[faulty_damper]

Insulting a forum member is not a constructive way to win an argument.

Have you not been paying attention to what awesom_o has been doing this entire thread?  He's been insulting me left, right, top, and bottom.  That's why I said I was returning the favor.  So what you said was really directed at him.

Why not start from the 4th movement? Do you hear impressionism in that part or do you consider it merely as yet another opportunity to play fast? If you don't hear impressionism, how do you handle Debussy then?

I hear the wind blowing in this movement, but it doesn't mean anything in the context of the whole work.  It's also an unfinished movement and comes off more like a toccata than anything meaningful.

[dima_76557]

I hear the wind blowing in this movement, but it doesn't mean anything in the context of the whole work.  It's also an unfinished movement and comes off more like a toccata than anything meaningful.

I think it *could* become meaningful if you were willing to accept the rest of the context/ concepts I gave you. I can do no more in terms of "interpretation". Sorry. The 4th movement reminds me of a scene in one of those films by Ingmar Bergman. It is more an impression than a finished whole in the classical, musical, sense. Just imagine the end titles rolling before the curtain closes with this picture in the background.

From the musicological point of view, I found another .pdf document (yet another dissertation, this time by Jonathan Mitchell) that might be of interest, especially about how Chopin generally handles the exposition in his larger works. If it has no particular value for you personally, then that may surely be the case for some other forum members/readers, so here it is: CONSIDERING FORM IN CHOPIN’S SONATAS AND BALLADES

P.S.: If you listen closely to how Rachmaninoff plays the 1st movement of this Sonata, then you can't miss the quotes from the coda of Chopin's 1st ballade.

[thalbergmad]

I have just farted.

Thal

[outin]

I have just farted.

Thal

You should compose a sonata about that 

[cometear]

Allow me to dispute. 

A Funeral March is from the place of laying in state to the church, and/or from the church to the graveyard.  Not actually the funeral itself.

A funeral procession is indeed part of a funeral.

[cometear]

I don't hear what you're thinking.  The four movements don't sound cohesive to give such an impression of sadness, anger, etc.  The sonata doesn't sound like it's based around the funeral march, either.  I think you're trying too much to add meaning to it when it's not there.

I don't understand why you claim I am "trying too much to add meaning to when it's not there" when that is precisely what you are asking us to do. In fact, I have had this story in my mind ever since I heard the sonata. So I am not adding meaning to this piece for your self-gratification but for the reason that I have always had this opinion.

If it's based around anything, it's based around the funeral march. This predates the other movements by nearly two years.

Also I completely disagree with faulty_damper about the funeral march. I completely agree with you, j_menz, on this one.

@ faulty_damper

An addition to give a little more focus:
1st movement: revolt, non-acceptance of a hopeless struggle against what is more powerful than mankind;
2nd movement: death playing games of all kinds;
3d movement: humanity in pain and mourning over a loss;
4th movement: wind over the gravestones on a cemetry, playing with the leaves in autumn. One cannot but regret that a beloved one has gone, never to return.

P.S.: I cannot go further, because everything I add would be trivial and silly. Figure it out yourself or leave the piece alone.

Interesting! I like it a lot.

Faulty_damper. You should just take our opinion since you are the one in need of it, not us. I have no intent to offend you with my ideas but I surly do not expect to be questioned. Find it out on you're own.

And if you were a musician, you wouldn't have to start threads asking people what the meaning of a piece is!

The truth hurts doesn't it?

[awesom_o]

Analogy: Since you speak, therefore you LOVE to speak publicly and get all kinds of unwanted attention because you're such a gifted speaker.   

I don't understand.... I do love to speak publicly, and I love having people's attention directed at my erudition!

If you have any erudition yourself, you'll hurry on over to the audition room and show us what you're made of!

Because right now, you're made of pure poo!

[cometear]

Because right now, you're made of pure poo!

Surprisingly, I couldn't agree with you more!

[awesom_o]

I'm starting to think that Faulty Damper must be such a bungling oaf at the keyboard, he's probably terrified to post any recordings of his playing!   

[faulty_damper]

Considering how much you post in the audition room, all you want to do is compare yourself to others to see where you stand.  I have no need to compare myself to anyone; the only thing I'm interested in is making good music.  Good music doesn't need comparing to other pianists.  Anyway, since you've clearly run out of ideas on how to attack me, this is the only thing you can resort to.  You need to grow some maturity.

[faulty_damper]

I don't understand why you claim I am "trying too much to add meaning to when it's not there" when that is precisely what you are asking us to do. In fact, I have had this story in my mind ever since I heard the sonata. So I am not adding meaning to this piece for your self-gratification but for the reason that I have always had this opinion.

I'm not asking for an external meaning, like the ones describing a story about some death or whatever.  I've heard this explanation many years ago when I first started learning this piece but I have never once been convinced that this is what the piece is about.  The ideas are too loose and incohesive for it to make sense in this way; it's not programatic like Liszt's sonata, for example.

I think the issue with this work, as a whole, is that it's simply not composed very well.  I very much agree that the work sounds like a mischling of random parts thrown together in a pot with the hope that something good came out of it.  But I don't think that occurred.

Now, as some of you, even those who disagree with my opinion, have stated or implied, it's not Chopin's best work.  Why is that?  Probably for the very same reasons I'm pointing out.  While you may be able to dismiss them/forgive them (because it was composed by Chopin, after all), I am not.  A work should be able to stand on its own, not behind the name of the creator.

[awesom_o]

the only thing I'm interested in is making good music. 

So far, you haven't made any good music!
Why don't you put your money where your mouth is, and show us some good music?
You can talk the talk.....but can you walk the walk?

[thalbergmad]

Good music doesn't need comparing to other pianists. 

Of course it does. Without comparison, it is very difficult to say what is good or what is bad.

Thal

[faulty_damper]

You're talking about performance, not communication.  What matters are the ideas and the communication of those ideas.  I don't disagree that this sonata has some good ideas, but the way he goes about communicating it doesn't put them in their best light since they sound disorganized and aren't developed well.

[thalbergmad]

You're talking about performance, not communication. 

I might not be the brightest spark on this forum, but to me there is no difference between performance and communication.

Thal

[faulty_damper]

Are you reading aloud these posts to perform then so that you can understand them?  Or do you read them silently in your own mind at your own pace?  I think you may be in need of a jump start.

[thalbergmad]

After reading this thread, I am in need of beer more than anything else.

Thal

[j_menz]

After reading this thread, I am in need of beer more than anything else.

Thal

Me too. 



I still don't understand why it is necessary to "get" every single piece of music, or why anyone thinks that some verbal ramblings are going to produce that understanding. Nor is it essential to like everything, and no amount of words are going to overcome that.

[awesom_o]

I still don't understand why it is necessary to "get" every single piece of music, or why anyone thinks that some verbal ramblings are going to produce that understanding. Nor is it essential to like everything, and no amount of words are going to overcome that.

This is worth noting!

I think 'disliking' anything is a waste of time! If you don't like something, don't like it! That's fine!

But once you start actively 'disliking' something, you are wasting valuable time and mental energy that could be better invested into your musical future in some other way.....such as exploring something that you DO like. 

[faulty_damper]

You actively dislike something to avoid similar things.  It's a fundamental behavioral trait.  Similarly, if you like something, you find others that are similar.  But the problem I find with this sonata is that it's overrated and over-praised.  You like Chopin? That's fine, but that doesn't make everything he wrote genius or worth playing as often as this piece is.

[j_menz]

But the problem I find with this sonata is that it's overrated and over-praised. 

Why do you care what other people think about it?

[kalirren]

Are you being forced, or somehow otherwise induced, to play this piece, that you show such resentment towards it?

[faulty_damper]

I'm just trying to find out why other people have some sort of affinity towards it.  Really, if it weren't for the nice funeral march, and that it was written by Chopin, this piece would have been forgotten in the annals of piano history.  Remove the funeral march and you're left with a hollow, and shallow, piece of musical drivel.

[kalirren]

To be fair, basically every commenter and article cited by the commenters above has identified the funeral march as the keystone of the series. It shouldn't be surprising that if you take it out, the whole quadriptych falls apart.

Do you have similar difficulties appreciating Op. 58, which doesn't share this structure?

[cometear]

Remove the funeral march and you're left with a hollow, and shallow, piece of musical drivel.

I completely disagree. I find the first movement to be very rich in emotion and expression. It is very tensing. I enjoy it very much. The second movement is also wonderful. I don't think it is "hollow and shallow." The fourth movement is my favorite of them all! I believe it's a great sonata. I don't think it's wrong that you don't like it. It's fine. There is no need for you to verbally abuse us since we differ in our opinions.

[faulty_damper]

Uh, excuse me.  Verbally abuse?  Are you being a hypocrite?  Have you even read the responses by certain members in this thread?  Have you even read your own responses to these responses?  You endorse what you condemn!   

[dima_76557]

I'm not asking for an external meaning, like the ones describing a story about some death or whatever.  I've heard this explanation many years ago when I first started learning this piece but I have never once been convinced that this is what the piece is about.  The ideas are too loose and incohesive for it to make sense in this way; it's not programatic like Liszt's sonata, for example.

It's NOT a "story", it's a spiritual theme throughout this piece, wherein everybody has lots of freedom to let the music play itself. As long as you keep rejoicing in yourself and have the arrogance to deny a spiritual tradition, you will not be able to crack this nut.

[faulty_damper]

There's nothing spiritual in this sonata.

[awesom_o]

Those of us who play it well happen to disagree!

[dima_76557]

There's nothing spiritual in this sonata.

O lovely science, that only lets one suffer longer! Could it give me back my strength, qualify me to do any good, to make any sacrifice – but a life of fainting, of grief, of pain to all who love me, to prolong such a life – O lovely science!

[j_menz]

O lovely science, that only lets one suffer longer! Could it give me back my strength, qualify me to do any good, to make any sacrifice – but a life of fainting, of grief, of pain to all who love me, to prolong such a life – O lovely science!

To be fair, medical science at the time was most unlikely to lengthen his sufferings, and much more likely to shorten them.

And science at the time was not seen as the enemy of spirituality it might sometimes be portrayed as today.

[dima_76557]

@ j_menz

The "scientific" solution is to simply look impressive while playing as we have "learned" from that Chinese scientist, ex-Miss Long Island, who also seems to understand everything in a culture that is not her own.

[j_menz]

@ j_menz

The "scientific" solution is to simply look impressive while playing.

I doubt that was the sort of science Chopin cursed.  Do you just make random word associations?

[dima_76557]

I doubt that was the sort of science Chopin cursed.  Do you just make random word associations?

You may doubt, but Chopin was baptized a Catholic, later turned his back towards his faith, and still later in life regretted that. That's what this quote is about. It is not limited to doctors only, since, as you correctly concluded: the standards of science at that time would have more likely shortened his life, rather than lengthened it.
P.S.: I think the initial function of science was indeed to free the people of the dictatorship of religion, but as a reaction, many tended to throw out the baby with the bath water and rejected spirituality altogether.

[j_menz]

That's what this quote is about.

Rubbish.  Periodically he went all melancholic and lamented that he was still alive and cursed anything that might have contributed to that. He later cursed Sand in the same vein.

Also, read up on the history of science. Your lack of education is glaringly obvious on this.

[faulty_damper]

Those of us who play it well happen to disagree!

Speaking of arrogance...

[cometear]

Uh, excuse me.  Verbally abuse?  Are you being a hypocrite?  Have you even read the responses by certain members in this thread?  Have you even read your own responses to these responses?  You endorse what you condemn!   

If you didn't insult our opinions, which you pleaded us to give, we would not have any need to defend ourselves. You are being very immature.

[dima_76557]

Rubbish.  Periodically he went all melancholic and lamented that he was still alive and cursed anything that might have contributed to that. He later cursed Sand in the same vein.

Also, read up on the history of science. Your lack of education is glaringly obvious on this.

No need to get personal. There's nothing wrong with my education. We may be interpreting Voltaire (and historical events as a whole) differently because we have a very different background.

[faulty_damper]

If you didn't insult our opinions, which you pleaded us to give, we would not have any need to defend ourselves. You are being very immature.

When did I even do that?  I think you need to read this thread again and pay close attention to context.  You are being a hypocrite if you think only you can make implied or direct insults so your very own statement about maturity is directed at yourself.