Is finger strength a myth?

[rovis77]

I read that hanon or czerny won't make your fingers stronger because fingers don't have muscles, is this a myth?.

[lelle]

Of course the fingers have muscles, else you wouldn't be able to move them. The debate is usually if those muscles' inherent strength is enough to play the piano or not, or if that is even the correct question to ask.

[thalbergmad]

Here we go again

[louispodesta]

Here we go again

At the top of this page is a blank space entitled "search."  Can you read?

This topic has been covered "ad nauseum, " so go look it up, including the one currently running on the Student's Corner forum.

[lostinidlewonder]

If there was no muscular association with our playing we could be playing at full force at the age of 90, its just not the case.

[dima_76557]

Is finger strength a myth?

No, finger strength does exist:

&t=1m1s

but for piano playing, it will hardly be of any value, as our friend here can confirm:

[thalbergmad]

This topic has been covered "ad nauseum, " so go look it up, including the one currently running on the Student's Corner forum.

Has it really. Sorry did not know. Only been here a week.

Thal

[outin]

I think we should first discuss the meaning of "strength" for a few pages 

Anyway, to not let this thread go to waste, I'll talk about a strange experience I am having... Since yesterday I am suffering from a very sudden and very bad attack of urticaria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urticaria). Not only is it itching like h... all over, my limbs are quite swollen as well. I thought it might be very difficult to play the piano but found instead that with these fat fingers playing is easier than normally. I can get out a full and soft tone with little effort, not something that happens with my own hypermobile thin fingers.

Read somewhere that Anton Rubinstein, who was said to have the most beautiful touch, had hands like paws with very short stuffy fingers. I've also seen myself how some pianists with short and fat fingers manage to get a most wonderful tone out of the piano.

So never mind strength, but how does one get fat fingers 

[dima_76557]

I think we should first discuss the meaning of "strength" for a few pages  

I don't think so. "Strength" in the OP is meant as a muscle thing, but it must be clear from the following video clips of an 11-year old playing ALL of the Chopin etudes op. 10 in a row in an acceptable fashion in one concert that physical strength, hand and/or finger size, etc. are really not much of an issue if you want to learn to play the instrument reasonably well:
Part 1
Part 2

About hands: yes, hands like Rubinstein's are ideal to play the instrument because what can be difficult to grasp for someone with much smaller hands is always convenient, but the true secret of his art lies in perfect body alignment, timing, etc. combined with a healthy musical mind.

[outin]

if you want to learn to play the instrument reasonably well

Of course not, but to be able to create the most beautiful tone with ease seems to require a perfect combination of body and mind. That's why it's so rare really...

[nyiregyhazi]

I read that hanon or czerny won't make your fingers stronger because fingers don't have muscles, is this a myth?.

See here if you want to understand what lies behind what some people suppose is strength, in a specific and meaningful way:

https://pianoscience.blogspot.co.uk/2014/08/tonal-control-efficiency-and-health.html

After the definition of what passes on movement efficiently, rather than wastefully, it also demonstrates how so many pianists get lost in a false dichtomy- between the ineptitude of relaxation vs the extreme strength required to fix against collapse with tension. You don't need to be strong, because good pianists neither relax nor stiffen but do something different- ie. create what I call "positive movement". This is at the root of all effortless piano playing and strength cannot compensate for incorrect coordination of movement. The assumption that there is some magic point on a sliding scale between fixation and relaxation is a completely false premise that cannot offer any workable solution. It's when people are lost in this doomed search that extreme strength seems necessary. You don't need much strength when you replace the fixation/relaxation dillemma with an understanding of much more effective (and less effort) usefully directed movement in the hand is.

nb. the post isn't strictly finished, as there are some videos to be added but the basic premise is shown by diagrams.

[louispodesta]

I read that hanon or czerny won't make your fingers stronger because fingers don't have muscles, is this a myth?.

This same post is actively being responded to on another website, which we all know.  So, cut the:   Oops, I am sorry routine.

This is a highly complicated methodology regarding the playing of the piano, and you show it major disrespect by playing the roll of the innocent inquirer.

Every time you respond, I will nail you.  You, are a fraud!  And, that includes the other website.

[nyiregyhazi]

This same post is actively being responded to on another website, which we all know.  So, cut the:   Oops, I am sorry routine.

This is a highly complicated methodology regarding the playing of the piano, and you show it major disrespect by playing the roll of the innocent inquirer.

Every time you respond, I will nail you.  You, are a fraud!  And, that includes the other website.

?

[goldentone]

If there was no muscular association with our playing we could be playing at full force at the age of 90, its just not the case.

That's a good point.  But there is not only muscular degeneration as we age, but coordination, mental sharpness, etc.

[nyiregyhazi]

That's a good point.  But there is not only muscular degeneration as we age, but coordination, mental sharpness, etc.

Also taste. Most pianists mellow as they age.

No problems in making a big sound there when he chooses to. You can see that restraint is quite deliberate compared to when he genuinely tries for a big sound.

[j_menz]

So never mind strength, but how does one get fat fingers 

Easy. Lots of....



You may have difficulty isolating the results to the fingers, though.

[lelle]

Easy. Lots of....



You may have difficulty isolating the results to the fingers, though.

Well, luckily isolating the fingers is frowned upon these days 

[outin]

You may have difficulty isolating the results to the fingers, though.

Yeah, and fat thighs don't seem to be a major asset in playing the piano  

I've already tried the pizza method, but nothing seems to go the the fingers unfortunately  

[dima_76557]

I've already tried the pizza method, but nothing seems to go the the fingers unfortunately  

You may want to change jobs. Do something in construction work, carrying bricks, etc. That will train your hands and fingers really beast mode.

P.S.: Enough for the jokes. This has nothing to do with finger thickness. I think what happened is this: your situation simply kept you from tensing/locking those parts of your system that you usually (over)exert to play the instrument. You should be grateful for this opportunity and remember/recall the sensations for future usage. All you have to do is sink into the key and "ground" yourself into the keybed without pressing through it. Comfortable balance. No fixation, no locking, etc. Try it!

[outin]

P.S.: Enough for the jokes. This has nothing to do with finger thickness. I think what happened is this: your situation simply kept you from tensing/locking those parts of your system that you usually (over)exert to play the instrument. You should be grateful for this opportunity and remember/recall the sensations for future usage. All you have to do is sink into the key and "ground" yourself into the keybed without pressing through it. Comfortable balance. No fixation, no locking, etc. Try it!

Actually no, it isn't that simple for everyone. I suffer from quite severe hybermobility which unfortunately is also causing me health issues in addition to making piano playing complicated. I cannot just "sink into a key" without being properly prepared because my finger joints will collapse or even "turn over" which is not only painful but ruins the tone. It has been a really long process to find the right balance with the required muscle work and I constantly need to be aware of it. Obviously the fluid build-up around the finger joints reduced the need to use muscles to stabilize the joints thus making it less effortless to play. But it's almost gone now...

[nyiregyhazi]

Actually no, it isn't that simple for everyone. I suffer from quite severe hybermobility which unfortunately is also causing me health issues in addition to making piano playing complicated. I cannot just "sink into a key" without being properly prepared because my finger joints will collapse or even "turn over" which is not only painful but ruins the tone. It has been a really long process to find the right balance with the required muscle work and I constantly need to be aware of it. Obviously the fluid build-up around the finger joints reduced the need to use muscles to stabilize the joints thus making it less effortless to play. But it's almost gone now...

What do you mean by "prepare"? What you describe suggests that you are working on a premise of trying to immobilise joints against unwanted movements. Swollen joints would limit useful movements as much as unwanted ones, so presumably they helped because you would usually brace harder to reduce collapsing- and they did this job for you.

If by "prepare" you're talking about trying to immobilise, I'd recommend you read the post I linked earlier in this thread. It offers absolute proof that immobilisation against unwanted movement achieves significantly less than instigating movement in the useful direction, and demands far more physical exertion. There's no special compromise between relaxation and tension that is as versatile and effective as generating useful movement.

[hardy_practice]

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I don't think so. "Strength" in the OP is meant as a muscle thing, but it must be clear from the following video clips of an 11-year old playing ALL of the Chopin etudes op. 10 in a row in an acceptable fashion in one concert that physical strength, hand and/or finger size, etc. are really not much of an issue if you want to learn to play the instrument reasonably well:
Part 1
Part 2

Same for this kid?

[nyiregyhazi]

[ Invalid YouTube link ][/youtube]Same for this kid?

Same what?

[dima_76557]

Same for this kid?

What do you mean exactly? In a strength sport, you need (of course) strength. And you certainly need excellent technique too to use that strength effectively.

[hardy_practice]

If piano required strength, as some are contending here, the vid shows it's not a problem for 11 year olds.

[dima_76557]

If piano required strength, as some are contending here, the vid shows it's not a problem for 11 year olds.

Ah, OK.

[outin]

What do you mean by "prepare"?

I'm not going to try to explain anything to you. Let's say it's between me, my doctors and my teacher.

But you are right, the swelling may have had some good consequences, but did reduce some movements, so I guess I'm glad to have my own fingers back.

[nyiregyhazi]

I'm not going to try to explain anything to you. Let's say it's between me, my doctors and my teacher.

But you are right, the swelling may have had some good consequences, but did reduce some movements, so I guess I'm glad to have my own fingers back.

You discuss piano technique with your doctors but it's a secret from piano forum members?

[hardy_practice]

You discuss piano technique with your doctors but it's a secret from piano forum members?

No.  Knowing your track record, I would think just to you!

[pianoman53]

You discuss piano technique with your doctors but it's a secret from piano forum members?

Did this "talent" of your come at birth, or did you have to develop it yourself? Just leave people alone. If she doesn't want to tell you, she won't. Geez!

[mjames]

Seen this question way too many times, but imma pitch in for once. I may not have played since I was 3 like most of you who debate this, started playing two years ago and I can most definitely tell you that my fingers feel stronger. Not strong in the sense that I can lift weights with it, but they feel firm and heavier than it did before I started playing piano. Not a doctor, not a genius, not a teacher just telling you my experience.

[outin]

You discuss piano technique with your doctors but it's a secret from piano forum members?

Oh, no secret, I'd be happy to show you in person if I could. I'm just not good enough a writer to make myself understood.

[nyiregyhazi]

Oh, no secret, I'd be happy to show you in person if I could. I'm just not good enough a writer to make myself understood.

People have tried to describe these things subjectively in all kinds of mysterious and frankly meaningless ways. I wasn't suggesting that kind of vague answer. At the root of it, it comes down to two possibilities- do you prepare by trying to make the finger more rigid (to preserve its shape against resistance) or do you prepare by starting to move the finger in the useful direction? Regardless of the fine details, piano technique objectively boils down to these two different foundations of approach. It's just one or the other and there's no need for anything more subjective. If you're not sure, it's a question worth asking- given that it's easy to objectively prove that immobilisation yields lesser results for more physical effort.

[outin]

People have tried to describe these things subjectively in all kinds of mysterious and frankly meaningless ways. I wasn't suggesting that kind of vague answer. At the root of it, it comes down to two possibilities- do you prepare by trying to make the finger more rigid (to preserve its shape against resistance) or do you prepare by starting to move the finger in the useful direction? Regardless of the fine details, piano technique objectively boils down to these two different foundations of approach. It's just one or the other and there's no need for anything more subjective.

I guess I'm not good enough a reader either since I can't follow the reasoning in your posts.

[nyiregyhazi]

I guess I'm not good enough a reader either since I can't follow the reasoning in your posts.

The third choice is to let a limp finger collapse. What other way do you propose there is to stop that - other than fixating joints with tension or moving them in useful direction(so as to eliminate the possibility of collapse without any fixation)? It's not rocket science but the most simple logic. Anything else is just adding superfluous complexity to a simple binary issue. All pianists either strive to immobilise finger joints or to move from them in a productive way. There is no objective alternative that doesn't end with the palm hitting a cluster during every chord.

Its a simple question. Assuming you don't collapse into a cluster with each chord, do you achieve that by trying to lock fingers into rigidity or by generating movement that pushes the knuckles up into freedom (rather than down towards impact)? Everything involves one or the other.

[outin]

Its a simple question. Assuming you don't collapse into a cluster with each chord, do you achieve that by trying to lock fingers or by generating movement that pushes the knuckles up rather than down?

Not simple enough a question for a simpleton like me I'm afraid. What do you mean by locking fingers? And how could one push the knuckles down?

[nyiregyhazi]

Not simple enough a question for a simpleton like me I'm afraid. What do you mean by locking fingers? And how could one push the knuckles down?

By them being human fingers rather than  solid steel? Anything that doesn't involve active creation of movement in the fingers is based on fixation against collapse. Fingers which are not moving in the useful direction collapse freely unless rigidified.

Click on my blog and see the diagrams in the first article. Unfortunately conventional teaching muddies the waters with all kinds of mysteriously subjective talk that makes the objective simplicity of reality quite startling at first. But it's far simpler when you look at objective fact that fingers aren't rigid and think about whether you operate by trying to make them so, or by moving them in a useful path.

[outin]

By them being human fingers rather than  solid steel? Anything that doesn't involve active creation of movement in the fingers is based on fixation against collapse. Fingers which are not moving in the useful direction collapse freely unless rigidified.

That certainly didn't help to clarify anything. Steel fingers 

And no, I'm not going to go to your blog. But if you feel it's too much work to explain yourself here, I understand.

[nyiregyhazi]

That certainly didn't help to clarify anything. Steel fingers  

And no, I'm not going to go to your blog. But if you feel it's too much work to explain yourself here, I understand.

The point was that they are NOT steel. So they collapse unless you work senselessly hard by trying to make them as stiff as steel . or, more simply, by moving them.

It's a simple question and there's no third way. Do you resist collapse by stiffening and trying to turn your fingers into steel or by moving them in the opposite direction to collapse? If it's not the latter, you're doing the former. Which I really don't recommend to someone with joint issues.

[outin]

It's a simple question and there's no third way. Do you resist collapse by stiffening and trying to turn your fingers into steel or by moving them in the opposite direction to collapse?

I don't see how I could turn my fingers into steel so obviously not.

What do you mean by "moving the finger in the opposite direction to collapse"?

[hardy_practice]

Basically all you need to do is adjust the resistance of your joints as you encounter the resistance of the key.  This of course is far too simple for Mr Pseudo-Science!

[nyiregyhazi]

I don't see how I could turn my fingers into steel so obviously not.

What do you mean by "moving the finger in the opposite direction to collapse"?

Look at the diagrams and you'll see. They demonstrate better than any words.

It doesn't matter whether you rationally think your fingers can become steel. The vast majority of those who play piano intuitively stiffen rather than move. There's no alternative but stiffness when you don't generate useful movement.

[nyiregyhazi]

Basically all you need to do is adjust the resistance of your joints as you encounter the resistance of the key.  This of course is far too simple for Mr Pseudo-Science!

Indeed. Because it fails to differentiate between combating collapse with extreme muscular effort to fix a joint and eliminating it with the lower effort alternative of movement. It offers no clues about the difference between effective and inadequate solutions.

[outin]

Look at the diagrams and you'll see. They demonstrate better than any words.

So I guess I'd need to draw a diagram to explain what is happening. But unfortunately I draw even worse than I write.

It doesn't matter whether you rationally think your fingers can become steel. The vast majority of those who play piano intuitively stiffen rather than move. There's no alternative but stiffness when you don't generate useful movement.

If it doesn't matter what I rationally think, then why would you bother to ask me? Are you expecting an irrational answer?

EDIT: Looked at the diagrams. How would those apply here, since my problem is not collapsing knuckles, that is quite easy to avoid with the  palm musculature.

[hardy_practice]

and eliminating it with the lower effort alternative of movement.

Move the finger to lower the key?  I think you're on to something there!

[nyiregyhazi]

So I guess I'd need to draw a diagram to explain what is happening. But unfortunately I draw even worse than I write.

If it doesn't matter what I rationally think, then why would you bother to ask me? Are you expecting an irrational answer?

EDIT: Looked at the diagrams. How would those apply here, since my problem is not collapsing knuckles, that is quite easy to avoid with the  palm musculature.

Yes- if you use notable muscular tension to fixate the hand then it's indeed very easy to stop knuckles collapsing in a really obvious visible way. But the point was the difference between whether you achieve it via high effort fixation or lower effort movement in the opposite direction (there is no other alternative). Unless your hand is literally made of steel, they still collapse a fraction unless you are generating movement well- hence my straightforward question to you (that I ask again- are you preventing collapse by moving or stiffening against it? It's a straightforward question, with only two possible answers- that you need to ask yourself, if you don't know the answer). And that's without even going into how unhealthy it is to achieve that with fixation. I didn't speak broadly of not collapsing the knuckles at any cost. I spoke specifically of how different the two different ways of fighting collapse are. And the diagram is purely to show the direction of the collapse. Even half a mm in the indicated direction counts as a collapse- so I wouldn't be so full of bravado. The whole reason this discussion exists is because people who try to play loud attempt it via finger fixation- which yields poor results for a lot of effort and thus creates the impression that more strength would be the answer.

I taught a number of lessons to a performing concert pianist recently, who has played numerous concertos with orchestra and played various big solo works. He had not mastered these issues any more than I have- and was fortunately openminded enough to be looking for areas where he can continue to develop his playing, rather than assuming himself to be a consumate model of pianistic perfection. When I showed him how to play big chords by expanding (rather than tensing against collapse and then relaxing) the hand, he commented (entirely unprompted) on how much more resonant and sonorous he found the sound to be, with less physical effort. But you feel you've already mastered issues that he and myself have plenty of room for improvement on? Have you checked your knuckles in the massive organ like sonorities of Franck's Prelude Chorale and Fugue yet?

If you want to believe that you've totally nailed technical issues that neither he nor myself have, that's up to you. But I'd be interested to know how your hand can supposedly resist collapsing- if it's neither made of steel nor creating movement in the opposite direction to collapse. Sure sounds to me like you're wasting effort by attempting to immobilise joints- like the overwhelming majority of pianists. That would explain why the tightened up joints actually helped you, where they ought to have limited you. If you're comfortable that your technique is a model of perfection that suffers neither collapse nor stiffness, then you're certainly a lot more cocksure than both this performing artist and myself. Personally, I find that openmindedness about the possibility that you haven't necessarily mastered everything goes a long way towards improvement...

[nyiregyhazi]

Move the finger to lower the key?  I think you're on to something there!

It's a real pity that this isn't the straightforward truism it should be. If it weren't for all the methods that suggest that the finger should only "support" arm energy (without generating movement of its own) then we wouldn't be in situation where something that should be so transparently obvious is completely lost on so many pianists. Taubman's very selective description of pianism is a classic example of a method that encourages fingers to fixate against collapse, rather than move in a healthy and truly low effort fashion. There are more common methods that omit (or even argue against) the essential factors that are required to avoid fixation, than those that actually detail them meaningfully.

[outin]

But I'd be interested to know how your hand can supposedly resist collapsing- if it's neither made of steel nor creating movement in the opposite direction to collapse. Sure sounds to me like you're wasting effort by attempting to immobilise joints- like the overwhelming majority of pianists. That would explain why the tightened up joints actually helped you, where they ought to have limited you. If you're comfortable that your technique is a model of perfection that suffers neither collapse nor stiffness, then you're certainly a lot more cocksure than both this performing artist and myself. Personally, I find that openmindedness about the possibility that you haven't necessarily mastered everything goes a long way towards improvement...

I would never claim I have mastered everything or that "my technique is a model of perfection". It's simply stupid of you to assume something like that. On the contrary there's a lot I need to keep working on. But I have gone a long way to develope a technique that works for MY hands and at least two competent teachers who have actually seen me play seem to agree. Neither do I get tired or get pains from playing anymore. You have a really bad habit of reading what other people write in a way that helps you maintain your prejudices. When I said it's easy to use the palm muscles I did not mean it's easy to learn to do it (took quite a long time for me) but that it is physically not demanding after you've learned it.

Maybe a couple of photos would be helpful in explaining the issues I am dealing with (to various degrees depending on the individual finger):





The first image shows the normal finger shape on the right and hypermobile 1st finger joints on the left. The second picture shows hypermobility acting on the 2nd joints. The photos show what happens if I try to use straight fingers without being prepared. Do you or your concert pianist have such hands? Or have you worked with many students who have? Or maybe your expertice comes from studying such things?

There are special finger braces to prevent this type of over flexing. I've never tried those, but obviously the swelling acted in a similar way, preventing the unwanted flexibility while still allowing the fingers to curve normally.

Since the muscles in the hand only extend beyond the knuckle joints in the fingers, the ways to control the behavior of the other two finger joints are with the muscles in the forearm and by controlling the weight that is laid on each finger, can you agree?

My teacher and I are quite happy to call my worst fingers "weak". Yet there's no shortage of grip strength, I can carry a bag with any one finger. To think only about grip strength when discussing finger strength is a common mistake. The word not only refers to "the quality or state of being physically strong" but also to "the ability to resist being moved or broken by a force" (www.merriam-webster.com). If the finger joints "break" from even the tiniest pressure, IMO that qualifies for lack of strength that is counterproductive for playing the piano.

[dima_76557]

If the finger joints "break" from even the tiniest pressure, IMO that qualifies for lack of strength that is counterproductive for playing the piano.

I'd say this qualifies not so much as "lack of strength", but rather as "reduced joint control" for several reasons and with remedies that may lie beyond the territory of standard piano pedagogy. This takes one-on-one consultation with a knowledgeable teacher/trainer/therapist to train the proper areas FOR YOUR PARTICULAR CASE away from the instrument, so I am not going to advise anything here and I recommend others refrain from doing that too. Rest assured though: this *can* be solved!

[outin]

I'd say this qualifies not so much as "lack of strength", but rather as "reduced joint control"

Ok, but I'd say it's a question of semantics  

for several reasons and with remedies that may lie beyond the territory of piano pedagogy. This takes one-on-one consultation with a knowledgeable teacher/trainer/therapist to train the proper areas FOR YOUR PARTICULAR CASE away from the instrument, so I am not going to advise anything here and I recommend others refrain from doing that too. Rest assured though: this *can* be solved!

Thanks
Despite having had many moments of desperation I now believe so too if I just can keep myself motivated to do all the extra work and accept that it takes time... At least well enough to be able to enjoy playing a lot of piano repertoire well enough to please my ears, if not on a virtuoso level