Forearm problems

[hardy_practice]

Can't help it but that is how it felt. Your tone wasn't exactly elegant if I may say so.

Oh, OK. But how did you decide then that your fingering will actually work a tempo, the more so for others?

I can play it a tempo but the insecurities in my Dim7 knowledge causes glitches.  The technique's a breeze - I could pass it on to muscle memory but wouldn't gain anything like as much.

[goldentone]

Stop arguing, the pair of you, before there's a forearm a hummin'.

[hardy_practice]

You bargin' in?

[goldentone]

When you see the curvature of spacetime. . .

[nyiregyhazi]

I can play it a tempo but the insecurities in my Dim7 knowledge causes glitches.  The technique's a breeze - I could pass it on to muscle memory but wouldn't gain anything like as much.

If you can't get yourself acquainted with all of three possible four note chords, I suggest you avoid virtually all music ever written. You'll be lost with 99.9 percent of it, based on that level of knowledge.

[dima_76557]

The technique's a breeze - I could pass it on to muscle memory but wouldn't gain anything like as much.

It still goes against Chopin, that's why it doesn't work. I have done all of the etudes and contrary to what you say in the Waltz topic, Chopin was obsessed not as much with the strength of the fourth finger, as he was with the index finger as a pivot point to gain simplicity of execution, something you seek to avoid with your fingering. Don't ask for a "source". It's experience that anyone who has really gone through the two sets of etudes will be happy to confirm.

Do the technique right and music is the result. Do the music right and technique is the result. There is no dividing whatsoever between those two in Chopin's music.

[hardy_practice]

, Chopin was obsessed not as much with the strength of the fourth finger, as he was with the index finger as a pivot point to gain simplicity of execution,

'All that is left to me is a long nose and a fourth finger out of practice.' - Chopin .  You want to show me where, perhaps in his Method?, he mentions index fingers?

[dima_76557]

'All I have left is a big nose and an underdeveloped fourth finger' - Chopin .  You want to show me where, perhaps in his Method?, he mentions index fingers?

Perhaps, but I must say that my patience with you is gradually wearing out:
From Chopin's unfinished Method: "the pivot is the index finger, which divides the hand in half when it spreads open"; and, the third finger is "the middle and the pivot [point d'appui]". The sources are provided in the book.

https://books.google.com/books?id=UVVqMCoeJIkC&pg=PA231&lpg=PA231&dq=piano:+Chopin+index+finger+as+pivot+point&source=bl&ots=tA6_A0nRfw&sig=uJmqXRTX9GiPZh8siw0L1ncQzfE&hl=ru&sa=X&ei=TelJVNzlGIrnygOCzYDACA&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=piano%3A%20Chopin%20index%20finger%20as%20pivot%20point&f=false

[hardy_practice]

Perhaps, but I must say that my patience with you is gradually wearing out:

Well bully for you!  Your patronizing attitude doesn't exactly endear you either.

[dima_76557]

Well bully for you!  Your patronizing attitude doesn't exactly endear you either.

Let's keep things on topic. I gave you what you were asking for. What do you say to that?

[hardy_practice]

'everything is a matter of good fingering.  Hummel was the most knowledgeable on this subject.' also from The Method.  Quite what's 'pivotal' about 1-3; 1-3; is quite beyond me anyhow.

[dima_76557]

'everything is a matter of good fingering.  Hummel was the most knowledgeable on this subject.' also from The Method.  Quite what's 'pivotal' about 1-3; 1-3; is quite beyond me anyhow.

Since Chopin is dead and all, we can't ask him, but if you analyze the "standard" fingering in this cadenza, then you will see that nobody has to stretch there, go into weird contortions of any kind, or change the fingering to something else because:

in the first group, 2 is the pivot and
in the second group, 3 is the pivot

and the pattern continues like that until the cadenza dies out.

So, although it looks like you are using the same units (1-3), their function is essentially different. Besides, in the second 1-3, you have the benefit of the hand that actually initiates the group according to Chopin's instructions - the slurs, that do not indicate "physical legato" but musical and technical groupings.

P.S.: Your "fourth finger" quote is evidence that Chopin thought that it COULDN'T be changed with any practice at all, just like the form of his nose. It's a very sarcastic remark, aimed at proponents of the "traditional" schools of his time with their crazy mechanical exercises to make that finger stronger.

[swagmaster420x]

Can you guys have a piano battle

[hardy_practice]

P.S.: Your "fourth finger" quote is evidence that Chopin thought that it COULDN'T be changed with any practice at all, just like the form of his nose. It's a very sarcastic remark, aimed at proponents of the "traditional" schools of his time with their crazy mechanical exercises to make that finger stronger.

NO!  He's dying!  Read the letter.

https://archive.org/stream/selectedcorrespo002644mbp/selectedcorrespo002644mbp_djvu.txt

[dima_76557]

NO!  He's dying!  Read the letter.

How long are you going to play this "everybody is stupid but me" game, Hardy?
P.S.: Wish you good luck with the cadenza. Over and out.

[hardy_practice]

How long are you going to play this "everybody is stupid but me" game, Hardy?

So not only a master of exegesis, a mind reader too?