Mozart sonatas - practicing evenness & trills

[gr8ape]

Hello, I've been working on the a minor sonata (first movement).

How should I practice to gain speed while maintaining evenness? I can play most passages (except trills) not too bad at 70bpm. Things get uneven really fast though as I push the speed. Should I focus on bringing each bar/parts/sections/whatever up to a certain speed, should I play it through a couple times with metronome and add 3-4 when im satisfied?

Also the passages where one hand is doing some 16th note run, and the other hand trills for a quarter note are giving me a bit of trouble, if I dont get the trill perfectly the other hand stutters and hesitates, any tips for practicing these? Isolated trills with metronome? Simplify the trills?

thanks

[faulty_damper]

Sounds like tension builds up at faster tempi.  Others will tell you to relax.  I will tell you to align the apparatus so that it's already relaxed.

Same for trills: align the apparatus so that you aren't relying excessively on the fingers.

[cwjalex]

Hello, I've been working on the a minor sonata (first movement).

How should I practice to gain speed while maintaining evenness? I can play most passages (except trills) not too bad at 70bpm. Things get uneven really fast though as I push the speed. Should I focus on bringing each bar/parts/sections/whatever up to a certain speed, should I play it through a couple times with metronome and add 3-4 when im satisfied?

Also the passages where one hand is doing some 16th note run, and the other hand trills for a quarter note are giving me a bit of trouble, if I dont get the trill perfectly the other hand stutters and hesitates, any tips for practicing these? Isolated trills with metronome? Simplify the trills?

thanks

for me i was just did it slow with a metronome.  you can also turn the trills into a turn which makes it a lot easier.  the left hand 16th note runs at the end of each section are really tricky.  even though they are scalar they are difficult.  i have seen a lot of people describe these runs as difficult so i know it's a pretty common problem.  the whole sonata is hard to make sound right because it exposes your every technical flaw.  im playing it in a recital in a couple weeks and also have a recording of it in the audition room. 

[gr8ape]

Sounds like tension builds up at faster tempi.  Others will tell you to relax.  I will tell you to align the apparatus so that it's already relaxed.

Same for trills: align the apparatus so that you aren't relying excessively on the fingers.

What do you my apparatus....my hands and arms?

[cwjalex]

by apparatus i think he means the piano or keyboard.  wait a second, after re-reading what he wrote i'm also confused.  it sounds like he's talking about your hands and arms but also maybe he means the piano. just a warning, you have to take faulty's advice with a grain of salt.  when he heard my recording of it of he said that i needed to play it faster and i was already playing it at 120-125 bpm.

[gr8ape]

Are you suggesting I change my hand position to try and maximize relaxation?

[cwjalex]

faulty has trouble clearly expressing his thoughts.  they frequently need clarification.

[faulty_damper]

What do you my apparatus....my hands and arms?

Yes, hands, arms, including shoulders, torso, etc. 

[faulty_damper]

Are you suggesting I change my hand position to try and maximize relaxation?

If you are solely relying on just the fingers to trill, this is very inefficient.  Forearm rotation can be used to greatly improve efficiency of the movements.

[gr8ape]

its not that I have trouble trilling, my right hand trills are decent, and I am working on my left ones, but there is a pattern recurring in this sonata which is

One hand has a semiquaver run in one hand, and the other hand punctuates this run with quarter-note length trills. These are quite hard to "insert" in the runs

[gr8ape]

alex I am talking about the trills around 1min20 in your own video (second one first post)

how did you practice those? slow to past? did play the trills metronomically at slow speed then let it flow as you went faster?

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=56959

[cwjalex]

its not that I have trouble trilling, my right hand trills are decent, and I am working on my left ones, but there is a pattern recurring in this sonata which is

One hand has a semiquaver run in one hand, and the other hand punctuates this run with quarter-note length trills. These are quite hard to "insert" in the runs

how many turns are you doing in the trill?  if you start with the bottom note and do 3 turns in the trill then it fits neatly.  if just do 2 turns then the timing is awkward and the problem will clear itself up when you get better at the sonata.  when i play this sonata now i have trouble doing these sections slowly because of the problem you are describing.  i wouldn't worry about it too much because i think the problem will naturally correct itself.

[cwjalex]

alex I am talking about the trills around 1min20 in your own video (second one first post)

how did you practice those? slow to past? did play the trills metronomically at slow speed then let it flow as you went faster?

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=56959

like i said  i have always had trouble doing it slowly and the problem just naturally fixed itself for me.  i also find it helpful to really focus on the right hand during these parts.  the left hand 16th notes are evenly timed and for me i would just kind of let my left hand go in "auto-mode" and really look, focus, and concentrate on the right hand to insert the trills.

have you ever tried to rub your stomach in a circular motion with one hand and tap your head with the other?  the way i do this is start by doing one action, letting it continue on auto pilot and then just put all my attention on the other hand.  i learned these trills in the same way.  left hand auto pilot and focus on the right hand.

[gr8ape]

i thought there was just a turn a the end of the trill?

for example in the first one I do

(GA)-(GA)-(GAG)-(F#G)

where each parenthese group represents a semi-quaver

[hardy_practice]

Mostly Mozart trills start on the upper note.

[gr8ape]

Yes I read that yesterday while searching

however doesnt it sound very odd?? It sounds weird to me if the trills are semi-semiquavers

unless the trills are completely free then it would make sense...

[cwjalex]

Yes I read that yesterday while searching

however doesnt it sound very odd?? It sounds weird to me if the trills are semi-semiquavers

unless the trills are completely free then it would make sense...

yeah i started with the upper note in the beginning but i didn't like the sound of it.  also, it may help to remove one of those parenthesis and do one less GA.  i started doing the exact way that you described but the trill sounded too long to me.

[cwjalex]

maybe something like this with the metronome. 

[gr8ape]

Cool I didn't quite picture how one less "GA" would have sounded when you posted it, now I see (and hear lol)!
Ill try it out, it should be easier to master this than the "faster" version I am trying to do.

Thanks for the video

[hardy_practice]

Why wouldn't you just do this:

[cwjalex]

Why wouldn't you just do this:

i think that's how it's written but if you play it like that the trill sounds way too long.  i've listened to dozens of professional recordings of this piece and i'm pretty sure nobody makes the trill that long.

[hardy_practice]

At the appropriate speed it's fine.

[gr8ape]

Why wouldn't you just do this:

because it sounds bad in my opinion

I really like the way daniel barenboim plays it (kindof my reference/guide)

at least last time I tried....ill try it again tonight

[cwjalex]

give me a moment and i will upload both versions.

the first one sounds off to me.  the trill sounds too long

[gr8ape]

awesome

[hardy_practice]

A quick perusal of youtube finds they're nearly all doing this:

because they go too fast - it's Maestoso!
apart from www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfwMUuzCWAs  who at least starts on the upper note but his F# to G  isn't snappy enough and overall he's too slow.

[hardy_practice]

Sigmund Lebert and William Scharfenberg (Schirmer) agree with me:



an excellent edition.  We even came up with the same fingering! Available here: https://imslp.org/wiki/Piano_Sonata_No.8_in_A_minor,_K.310/300d_%28Mozart,_Wolfgang_Amadeus%29

[gr8ape]

What I dont understand then is that before the trill there is an appogiatura using A! How can the trill start on A if this is the case?

[hardy_practice]

Actually it's an acciaccatura and not Mozart's - it's Lebert et al's way of making sure you don't start the trill on the note as you would post-Mozart.

[cwjalex]

A quick perusal of youtube finds they're nearly all doing this:

because they go too fast - it's Maestoso!
apart from www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfwMUuzCWAs  who at least starts on the upper note but his F# to G  isn't snappy enough and overall he's too slow.

what does this mean?  what's too fast?  and what do u mean by maestoso?  also "quick perusal" doesn't make sense.  perusal means examine thoroughly.

[hardy_practice]

what does this mean?  what's too fast?  and what do u mean by maestoso?  also "quick perusal" doesn't make sense.  perusal means examine thoroughly.

The quintuplet I posted is what most youtube players actually play (which isn't what Mozart wrote)

They play the quintuplet because playing at the speed they play (too fast), Mozart's instruction is not possible.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maestoso
Maestoso is an Italian musical term and is used to direct performers to play a certain passage of music in a stately, dignified and majestic fashion

perusal
pəˈruːz(ə)l/
nounformal
the action of reading or examining something.
"I continued my perusal of the instructions"

[cwjalex]

The quintuplet I posted is what most youtube players actually play (which isn't what Mozart wrote)

They play the quintuplet because playing at the speed they play (too fast), Mozart's instruction is not possible.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maestoso
Maestoso is an Italian musical term and is used to direct performers to play a certain passage of music in a stately, dignified and majestic fashion

perusal
pəˈruːz(ə)l/
nounformal
the action of reading or examining something.
"I continued my perusal of the instructions"

okay on everything except perusal.  that's not really the definition that most of us use.  it means to examine it thoroughly.  most definitions will include this and it's the meaning that we most commonly use.  it's a common misconception that perusal means to skim but it's the opposite.  the problem is that it is so widely misused that many definitions actually include this error.  in the oxford american dictionary 'peruse' has a specific usage note that explains that 'skim' is incorrect.

[hardy_practice]

okay on everything except perusal.  that's not really the definition that most of us use.  it means to examine it thoroughly.  most definitions will include this and it's the meaning that we most commonly use.  it's a common misconception that perusal means to skim but it's the opposite.

Perusal Sentence Examples
A quick perusal of the bibliography on e-learning confirms that we can easily become too fixated on technology. 

Perusal of documents of the Foreign Office in Warsaw has given us later some surprising explanations. 

A quick perusal of the records I had copied showed the name as " Anders " every time (such consistency is fortunate)

However, I suspect that a quick perusal of the manual page or the configuration file should quickly point the way.     

Indeed, any close perusal of the literature on the development of inclusion in Europe inevitably reveals influences from the USA.     

The farm 's exact location becomes clear from a quick perusal of the map below.

[cwjalex]

Perusal Sentence Examples
A quick perusal of the bibliography on e-learning confirms that we can easily become too fixated on technology.  

Perusal of documents of the Foreign Office in Warsaw has given us later some surprising explanations.  

A quick perusal of the records I had copied showed the name as " Anders " every time (such consistency is fortunate)

However, I suspect that a quick perusal of the manual page or the configuration file should quickly point the way.    

Indeed, any close perusal of the literature on the development of inclusion in Europe inevitably reveals influences from the USA.    

The farm 's exact location becomes clear from a quick perusal of the map below.

I wouldn't celebrate misuse of the word.  Take literally vs figuratively for example.  Literally has been so commonly misused that in 3 different dictionaries, merriam webster, oxford dictionaries, cambridge dictionaries, the definition of figurative is actually included in the definition of literal.  To me this is insanity and I would prefer if words kept their true meaning instead of just changing their meaning to whatever we want even if it is the exact opposite of their intended meaning.

To peruse means to examine thoroughly although it has been misused for so long that incorrect definitions and uses are accepted. Saying that you "quickly, thoroughly examined" something just doesn't make sense.  If you want to claim that peruse just means to read then it does make sense.  Just keep in mind that people can also claim that "literally" also means "figuratively" in the exact same manner.

[hardy_practice]

Here's the Oxford English Dictionary (OED) - the last word on English!

To go through (a series of things or persons) so as to deal with one after the other; to handle, deal with, describe, or examine (a number of things) one by one.

It mentions your definition - to survey, inspect, examine, or consider in detail - as archaic.  1878 was the last use in your sense they found.

[cwjalex]

Here's the Oxford English Dictionary (OED) - the last word on English!

To go through (a series of things or persons) so as to deal with one after the other; to handle, deal with, describe, or examine (a number of things) one by one.

It mentions your definition - to survey, inspect, examine, or consider in detail - as archaic.  1878 was the last use in your sense they found.

well i'll refer back to my post about literal vs figurative.  dictionaries now accept wrong definitions if they are used enough.  you can keep using your peruse definition of skim just keep in mind a lot of people will think you are a little ignorant (not in general just in this particular instance).  Do you really want to be one of those people that use literally to mean figuratively? also, 1878 was when the word was introduced, not when it was last used.  we use plenty of words now that were introduced much earlier.

[hardy_practice]

Well I'm sorry the OED is not authoritative enough for you.  Who would have thought?

[cwjalex]

Well I'm sorry the OED is not authoritative enough for you.  Who would have thought?

did you read what i wrote about literal vs figurative?  the definition of figurative is included in the OED for literal!  if the OED included the definition of "short" as an accepted definition for the word "tall" would you still find that acceptable?  that is the exact same thing that happened with literal vs figurative.  likewise people misused peruse enough that the opposite definition "skim" is now accepted. 

[hardy_practice]

Yes, under literal it says 3c) Of persons: Apt to take literally what is spoken figuratively or with humorous exaggeration or irony; prosaic, matter-of-fact.

Problems with that?

[cwjalex]

Yes, under literal it says 3c) Of persons: Apt to take literally what is spoken figuratively or with humorous exaggeration or irony; prosaic, matter-of-fact.

Problems with that?

yeah.  because it's justifying people using the incorrect definition. like you did with peruse.  that is just one dictionary as well.

https://theweek.com/articles/466957/wrong-definition-literally-sneaked-into-dictionary

https://www.cnn.com/2013/08/15/living/literally-definition/

you don't have a problem with literal to mean figurative by the dictionary?  well i guess not everyone does but i sure do, especially since it's the opposite.  people use the dictionary as authority and authoritative text like the dictionary should not include incorrect definitions no matter how often they are used.

[hardy_practice]

 that is just one dictionary as well.

No, it's the OED.

you don't have a problem with literal to mean figurative by the dictionary?  

And quite where does it say literal means figurative here: 3c) Of persons: Apt to take literally what is spoken figuratively or with humorous exaggeration or irony; prosaic, matter-of-fact.?

[cwjalex]

No, it's the OED.
And quite where does it say literal means figurative here: 3c) Of persons: Apt to take literally what is spoken figuratively or with humorous exaggeration or irony; prosaic, matter-of-fact.

where it says "figuratively".  read the links that i sent.  the wrong definition of literal is included in many dictionaries.

[hardy_practice]

read the links that i sent.

I'm happy with the OED thanks very much.  That's enough OT.

[cwjalex]

I'm happy with the OED thanks very much.  That's enough OT.

well if u are okay with wrong definitions included in dictionaries then there's nothing more i can say.

[hardy_practice]

I looked at your links - pretty innocuous stuff if you ask me.  I suggest you start a discussion in anything-but-piano if that particular bee's got into your bonnet.   Language is like democracy - even the biggest idiot has his/her right to make an input.

[cwjalex]

I looked at your links - pretty innocuous stuff if you ask me.  I suggest you start a discussion in anything-but-piano if that particular bee's got into your bonnet.   Language is like democracy - even the biggest idiot has his/her right to make an input.

it wasn't supposed to offensive, it was supposed to be informative. also, this wasn't intended to be this long drawn out discussion, just a 1 sentence comment but it evolved into more.  It's also not that big of a deal to me, the literal/figurative thing really bothers me since it's more more common than peruse.  

[hardy_practice]

Not much difference between others using their new 2015 meaning of literal and you sticking to your archaic 1878 definition of peruse really - in their own way each shows a disregard for the living language.

[gr8ape]

Guys I came back to the forum and saw dozens more replies to my thread and I was thrilled.

Then I clicked on the thread and realized it was all off-topic

Still thanks for the input, I have been practicing it has gotten a bit better but I think I really have to concentrate on being able to get the left hand on autopilot even if I think about trills. I learned the second third of the movement too in an astonishly short amount of time (realized the structure was very simple and repetitive in some ways, patterns and all)

[hardy_practice]

Sorry about that.  I just did this for you:

  Is that any help?  I may learn it myself.

[gr8ape]

It is! Thanks, I think will practice it a bit like that so I can practice the whole movement up to speed