What do you think about Beethoven's music?

[jacobsterling]

Hi everyone,

Since my previous thread on Bach was such an enormous succes (had some nice discussion with Josh), I decided to do one on Beethoven as well.

Share your thoughts, not only his piano music.

Jacob

[josh93248]

Oh Boy, where to start!

Beethoven is my favourite composer easily, even if he is not the greatest composer ever in many senses (Bach is perfect, Mozart is perfect but Beethoven is the Best!)

What can you say about the man who almost invented expression and romanticism? His compositional aspirations reflect the aspirations of all humanity and I find him to be the most inspiring composer.

I once described the difference between Mozart and Beethoven as "Mozart is more concerned with happiness and sadness whereas Beethoven is more concerned with Hope and Despair."

Whether his writing is the most subtle or dumb hit-you-over-the-head-with-the-point type of music I don't mind, he did both so well but I particularly like his endearing stupidity at times

I would also say his writing for piano is exquisitely dumb compared with Chopin but also absolutely raw and inspired and expressed so earnestly and sincerely. I love his piano works as much as anyone elses and then on top of that he wrote so many genius pieces in other styles too.

Finally I think the Finale of the 9th symphony is the greatest thing ever written. Enough said

[jacobsterling]

"Mozart is more concerned with happiness and sadness whereas Beethoven is more concerned with Hope and Despair."

I'm gonna use that quote sometimes I think. As for the rest, I agree with you, except for the point that piano writing is stupid if you compare it with Chopin, since I think most componists before Chopin still tried to find ecstatic moments outside of the piano except for getting obsessed with the piano and the piano alone.

[outin]

I find it boring and uninteresting... All my sincere efforts to listen to it end in me zoning out...

[jacobsterling]

I find it boring and uninteresting... All my sincere efforts to listen to it end in me zoning out...

Why exactly, do you find it boring and uninteresting. What is it that makes you have that opinion?

[outin]

Why exactly, do you find it boring and uninteresting. What is it that makes you have that opinion?

Because it bores me and cannot make me interested  

I may add that when the pianist is really great I can somewhat enjoy the playing but it's rather despite the music than because of it.

[jacobsterling]

Because it bores me and cannot make me interested 

I may add that when the pianist is really great I can somewhat enjoy the playing but it's rather despite the music than because of it.

I don't want to be an anoying person here. Just trying to get everything out of everyone.

So, do you know why exactly it bores you and why it doesn't grasps your interest? Did you ever find that out?

[briansaddleback]

I find it boring and uninteresting... All my sincere efforts to listen to it end in me zoning out...

same with me. I mean , I respect his work. but  I rather listen to the other greats.

[jacobsterling]

same with me. I mean , I respect his work. but  I rather listen to the other greats.

But as I also asked outin. Why?

[bronnestam]

I love Beethoven, my favourite. But, actually, there was a time when I thought like outin. I got some Beethoven assignments by my piano teacher and I truly hated them because ... well, nothing happened.

But you change over time. I also met people who could explain more to me about Beethoven, so I started to listen in other ways. I also started to play more Beethoven myself and now I think it is wonderful. There is always a thought. No matter if it goes up, down or stays on the same spot, if it is in harmony or in disharmony - you can sense that he knew what he was doing, that he wanted to say something with every phrase, every note. It is an adventure to explore these thoughts.

To me, the first movement of the 5th symphony is the best, most genious piece of music ever written. It is so simple, built on this only, nagging rythm pattern: ta-ta-ta-taaa. It goes up. It goes down. It mumbles in the background, it comes softly, it comes in different voices and it comes unisonally. The power and the energy is unbelievable. My heart beats hard when it gathers for the final. I have played this in a four hand arrangement and it is a marvellous piece to work with. And somehow I here also can hear the germ to all modern rock music.

That is also something I adore about Beethoven. He could look into the future. He wrote music for modern pianos, not the pianos of his own time. The characteristic rythm pattern in the 5th symphony, the boogie woggie-rythm from the 32nd sonata, the pumping bass in the Pathétique sonata ... so much ahead of their time. He used emotion, drama and humour, played with genres. His deafness of course was a personal catastrophy for him, but at the same time the isolation might have helped him to develop this unique personality that I feel so strongly in his music.

So, learning Beethoven pieces is never boring. I always find something new, I get lots of ideas. I dont' like playing pop songs, though. They feel so ridiculously thin compared to Beethoven. A nice melody in your right hand, a stone dead, boring accompaniment in your left - soo? Nothing more to discover. Besides Beethoven had so many sweet, clever melodies in his works. Many of them have survived to our days - one famous example is the theme of Pathetique II. The lead theme of Waldstein III is deceivingly simple - and during the movement it is built up to something truly fantastic.  

[briansaddleback]

But as I also asked outin. Why?

Good question. I havent figured it out yet. It is like looking at certain styles of plates or furniture or art or anything. I prefer some over others. Other styles I just walk on by.
Just we are a bit wired differently is all I can say.
My mom loves beethoven. I used to listen to it all the time  because of her. Then I discovered debussy and CHopin and rach and never looked back.

[rubinsteinmad]

I find it boring and uninteresting... All my sincere efforts to listen to it end in me zoning out...

OMG I had a piano lesson today with:

Beethoven Sonata, III
Liszt Etude
Concerto, III

BTW, it was right after school

But the Beethoven left me in a state that I could barely keep my eyes open. So boring.

I was awakened by my gorgeuous Liszt Etude, and even more awakened by the Concerto.

[outin]

I don't want to be an anoying person here. Just trying to get everything out of everyone.

So, do you know why exactly it bores you and why it doesn't grasps your interest? Did you ever find that out?

I guess it simply lacks those things that I find enjoyable or interesting in music. It's too German, too classical still, I don't find the harmonics or rhythmic qualities interesting enough, don't like the way he uses the piano, his "dramatic effects" don't work on me at all and his music cannot evoke any kind of feelings in me.

I have been told by some people that my perceptions would change if I played his music myself. I doubt it and it's really not possible, because I cannot make myself learn something like that

[rubinsteinmad]

I guess it simply lacks those things that I find enjoyable or interesting in music. It's too German, too classical still, I don't find the harmonics or rhythmic qualities interesting enough, don't like the way he uses the piano, his "dramatic effects" don't work on me at all and his music cannot evoke any kind of feelings in me.

Wow. You don't have to refer to it as German music.

But I agree. IMO the most overrated composers are:
Schumann; Richard Strauss; Brahms; and Wagner. It just happens that they're all Germans. I have nothing against Germans though.

[outin]

Wow. You don't have to refer to it as German music.

But I agree. IMO the most overrated composers are:
Schumann; Richard Strauss; Brahms; and Wagner. It just happens that they're all Germans. I have nothing against Germans though.

I have nothing against German either, but there are not many German composers that I really like, it's a tradition and style that is not to my taste.
I do like a lot of Brahms though

[rubinsteinmad]

I have nothing against German either, but there are not many German composers that I really like, it's a tradion and style that is not to my taste.
I do like a lot of Brahms though

***Insert Brahms joke here****************

[briansaddleback]

oh yeah Brahms way overrated. only thing i like from him is the second rhapsody. Or was it the first? anyways, the more well known one w a lot of bass octaves.

[bronnestam]

I don't think it is fair to call a composer "overrated" just because YOU don't like him/her.  No, I don't like Brahms either. There are, in fact, lots and lots of composers I don't like very much. But it is just my taste, or maybe I haven't explored them enough yet. I respect that other people have another taste.

No, I cannot stand Wagner, nor Hindemith, nor Stravinskij. But still, if you do, then I am happy for you. The world would be boring if we all shared the same taste.

[cbreemer]

Beethoven is such fun to play ! At least the early to middle sonatas are. After having spent a lot of time with Bach (WTC foremost) now Beethoven's sonatas have gotten the better of me and I am beginning to understand why his sonata canon is called the "new testament" of the piano. I guess
composers like Bach and Beethoven usually come to you with age. Like many, I used to find them boring in my teens.

I find the idea that Brahms is overrated faintly ridiculous. Few composers combine such
consistent depth and quality in such a large oeuvre. Here is another composer that must grow
on you. It is ok to dislike his music, not to belittle it though.

[jacobsterling]

No, I cannot stand Wagner, nor Hindemith, nor Stravinskij. But still, if you do, then I am happy for you. The world would be boring if we all shared the same taste.

You can't stand Wagner nor Hindemith? Ooh, I do not like that. 

[jacobsterling]

I guess it simply lacks those things that I find enjoyable or interesting in music. It's too German, too classical still, I don't find the harmonics or rhythmic qualities interesting enough, don't like the way he uses the piano, his "dramatic effects" don't work on me at all and his music cannot evoke any kind of feelings in me.

I have been told by some people that my perceptions would change if I played his music myself. I doubt it and it's really not possible, because I cannot make myself learn something like that

Now that's more like an answer to my question. However, I could of course go even deeper and ask what those things are, but I won't be a jackass.

[visitor]

I like that it is not Chopin.

[mjames]

People don't even know how to write one bar of music are calling the great masters of the "Germanic" tradition (Brahms for example) overrated. It's fine to not like a composers body of work, but that doesn't mean that you have to be arrogant about it.

I didn't know much about Wagner until I attended an opera of his (LIVE) and that's when I began to understand why he is revered. I dread to think how obsessed I'd be If I actually understood the language they sang in. Well, that's why I'm learning German.

Beethoven is such fun to play ! At least the early to middle sonatas are. After having spent a lot of time with Bach (WTC foremost) now Beethoven's sonatas have gotten the better of me and I am beginning to understand why his sonata canon is called the "new testament" of the piano. I guess
composers like Bach and Beethoven usually come to you with age. Like many, I used to find them boring in my teens.

I find the idea that Brahms is overrated faintly ridiculous. Few composers combine such
consistent depth and quality in such a large oeuvre. Here is another composer that must grow
on you. It is ok to dislike his music, not to belittle it though.

^ pretty much this.

As I have improved my playing and overall musical knowledge for some reason composers like Bach and Beethoven began to grow on me. Back when I knew nothing about piano playing I found Beethoven's piano music absolutely booooooooooooooooooooring. Now I'm itching to play one of his early sonatas after Im done working on my current repertoire  list.

[outin]

Now that's more like an answer to my question. However, I could of course go even deeper and ask what those things are, but I won't be a jackass.

I might be in the mood some day to make a more profound analysis, but today is not one of those days

[visitor]

agreed to lots of the above.  the nod to Brahms is consistent with my aesthetic. I don't exactly enjoy playing/learning Brahms but that is independent of my admiration for the music (Brahms writes in very much 'orchestral' type style and texture, it's awkward, but we are rewarded for our efforts. It feels like a lot of what Brahms put down was in his head before he sat at the piano, if composed at the keyboard at all, lots of composers when you play it, you can feel it was done on and for and with the intent to play on the piano, vs. an idea that was made to'fit' the instrument).

Still, without Brahms, we have no Richard Strauss (which is way awesome and sadly, not sure why there is so much love for Beethoven and Brahms, yet Rick takes the tradition forward and is sadly neglected in piano, no so much instrumental he is very appreciated but piano music gets overlooked).

And for lovers of the above, folks really should seek out Egon Kornauth. Wow. Amazing. more please.

**by the way I know we're supposed to insert Robert Schumann in between Beethoven and Brahms, but altough I acknowledge his prominence and important, just don't care for his piano music (ensemble and lieder stuff is cool though).

[cbreemer]

And for lovers of the above, folks really should seek out Egon Kornauth. Wow. Amazing. more please.

Dang ! None of these vids are available here. YouTube says 'Sorry about that.' 

[visitor]

Dang ! None of these vids are available here. YouTube says 'Sorry about that.' 

that's a shame, you might be able to stream little 30 second samples of the album here
https://www.allmusic.com/album/egon-kornauth-piano-music-vol-1-mw0002486666

here's a some of  review. great stuff, recc purchasing the cd (physical or dl copy)
onathan Powell is one of the most eloquent commentators on the music he plays I have come across, whether that be Sorabji or Kornauth, and his booklet note is a source of great interest. The angular, active Fantasy (1915) contains distinctly Richard Straussian turns of harmony and phrase in the sweet contrasting themes (that influence is less obvious in the more Schwung sections); the overt lush Straussian gestures sound more like a reduction of an orchestral tone poem. The op. 25 Klavierstücke (1920) are more modernist, probably because of his experiences of Schreker. The first is decidedly Bergian (think the op. 1 Piano Sonata), while the central Improvisation sounds exactly like that. Most fascinating is the final “Walzer,” a very sprightly evocation of Viennese dance, a bit like an Austro-Germanic Ravel La Valse in places.

The Kleine Suite (1923) has fewer ambitions than the other works on the disc and receives another fantastic performance from Powell. The Barcarolle (third movement) sums the suite up in essence, reflecting the less demanding demeanor of the piece, while the penultimate “Walzer” elicits a phenomenally light touch from Powell before the cheekily scampering Finale rounds things off with a smile.

The Präludium und Passacaglia offers maximal contrast, the B?-Minor twilight of Bachian rigor and severity of the Prelude meeting the storm clouds of Chopin’s finest turbulence; the Passacaglia continues the gloominess. Powell paces it superbly: The close is truly crushing before the final surprise major-key end. The op. 44Klavierstücke of 1940 is also sometimes known as the Second Suite. It is shot through with sweet nostalgia. The five pieces (“Präludium”; “Intermezzo”; “Capriccio”; “Mährische Ballade”; “Walzer”) speak of sweet nostalgia. Powell lavishes them with an attention to detail that almost makes them sparkle (in a retrospective sort of way). The “Mährische Ballade” (Moravian Ballad) is the highlight. Its almost folkish mode of discourse hides a strong compositional rudder steering the work perfectly; the final “Walzer” is the suite’s longest movement, and drips with charm.

This is a fascinating disc (as we are beginning to expect from Toccata Classics). The recording (made at Durham University, U.K.) is excellent.’

[cbreemer]

Thanks, I sampled some of these snippets. Hefty stuff indeed, apparently very well written for the piano. Hard to gauge from the short fragments what the composer is trying to say though.

How did this thread get so horribly OT I wonder ?

[visitor]

Thanks, I sampled some of these snippets. Hefty stuff indeed, apparently very well written for the piano. Hard to gauge from the short fragments what the composer is trying to say though.

How did this thread get so horribly OT I wonder ?

no worries.
hhm, let's recalibrate. Back to Beethoven

this is why i like Beethoven. It sounds good in almost any style

 

[briansaddleback]

Schumann overrated as well.

[goldentone]

This thread did scamper away from Beethoven.  For the record, I'm just a two a year Kapustin chap. What really separates Beethoven is his spiritual depth and transcendental material of his later works. No one touches him here.  Brahms seems to have skirted this territory, but only Beethoven was able to dwell within.  It's a twofold accomplishment in that he entered into these waters, and then the ability to transmute that into music is something else.

[glennross]

This thread did scamper away from Beethoven.  For the record, I'm just a two a year Kapustin chap. What really separates Beethoven is his spiritual depth and transcendental material of his later works. No one touches him here.  Brahms seems to have skirted this territory, but only Beethoven was able to dwell within.  It's a twofold accomplishment in that he entered into these waters, and then the ability to transmute that into music is something else.

I agree with you.

However, as I indeed agree that Beethoven had the ability to bring transcendence into his music, I think that Brahms did this in another way than Beethoven did. I think with Brahms it is some kind of different atmosphere he creates, especially in his Op. 10 Ballades and also a lot of the later works.

It is, for me at least, a quasi-improvised atmosphere in which every harmony is pretty much unexpected.

But, yes indeed this thread is not so much about Beethoven anymore. Maybe open another one on Brahms/Schumann, Jacob?

BW,
Glenn

[rubinsteinmad]

People don't even know how to write one bar of music are calling the great masters of the "Germanic" tradition (Brahms for example) overrated. It's fine to not like a composers body of work, but that doesn't mean that you have to be arrogant about it.

I didn't know much about Wagner until I attended an opera of his (LIVE) and that's when I began to understand why he is revered. I dread to think how obsessed I'd be If I actually understood the language they sang in. Well, that's why I'm learning German.

^ pretty much this.

As I have improved my playing and overall musical knowledge for some reason composers like Bach and Beethoven began to grow on me. Back when I knew nothing about piano playing I found Beethoven's piano music absolutely booooooooooooooooooooring. Now I'm itching to play one of his early sonatas after Im done working on my current repertoire  list.

And WHY would you assume that PS members cannot compose a single bar of music? Just a question

[glennross]

People don't even know how to write one bar of music

Just some work in progress on pieces by a person who "doesn't even know how to write one bar of music."

[symphonicdance]

BBC Great Composers series - Beethoven

[CC]

I may have written the most detailed analysis of how Beethoven invented group theory before the mathematicians did, and claim that he is the grandfather of the internet.  Go to my web site below, then to 3rd edition and section 67; also other comments on LVB in  sections 48-50.