Buying a grand...

[hfmadopter]

That Bluthner all tuned up and if in good mechanical shape might be a good option for you and your apartment. What size is that one (you probably listed it, I'll look ) ? Suffice it to say that probably either would work and be better than your present piano.

[huaidongxi]

prices on steinway O's, newer or older, can be outrageously high, and access to a highly qualified technician (which apparently you have) essential.  looking forward to hearing the audio samples and you sound fairly confident that either instrument will give you much joy.  peace

[outin]

That Bluthner all tuned up and if in good mechanical shape might be a good option for you and your apartment. What size is that one (you probably listed it, I'll look ) ? Suffice it to say that probably either would work and be better than your present piano.

The Bluthner is 154cm.

[huaidongxi]

the 154 cm. grand is what Bluethner now calls its model 11, their smallest at just over five feet in anglo terms.  those leipzigers are very rational, with their tallest upright at just under five feet, very serious for the configuration.  my first grand was about the same size as the model 11 and to this day it was the piano that motivated me to play more than before or since, but life is simpler in one's stupid youth.

[hfmadopter]

The Bluthner is 154cm.

That should have a nice mid range in it when properly tuned. The little experience I have with them is the bass lacks a bit, still blends nicely though, but that's me and it may be fine for you at that( I'm at liberty in my own house to make a piano roar lol). Most  Bluthners have a little unique tone to them due to aliquot stringing ( a fourth suspended string in the mid and upper notes that is not struck by the hammers but give a sympathetic resonance and something you should enjoy I would think). If you listen to some you tube videos you don't have to hear many to be kind of taken by this tone.

Bass strings are very high tinsel in these pianos, a tuner needs to proceed accordingly, very small movements of the tuning hammer. And of course it is a little unique to tune as well because of that fourth string.

Bluthner action should be nice, it's their own roller action.

How are you feeling today ?

[outin]

That should have a nice  range in it when properly tuned. The little experience I have with them is the bass lacks a bit, still blends nicely though, but that's me and it may be fine for you at that( I'm at liberty in my own house to make a piano roar lol). Most  Bluthners have a little unique tone to them due to aliquot stringing ( a fourth suspended string in the mid and upper notes that is not struck by the hammers but give a sympathetic resonance and something you should enjoy I would think). If you listen to some you tube videos you don't have to hear many to be kind of taken by this tone.

Bass strings are very high tinsel in these pianos, a tuner needs to proceed accordingly, very small movements of the tuning hammer. And of course it is a little unique to tune as well because of that fourth string.

Bluthner action should be nice, it's their own roller action.

How are you feeling today ?

Just a bit stuffy and still coughing...it's also allergy season of course...

I have been packing all day and now finally on my way to the cabin with 6 cats and one digital  piano 
Did not have time to edit the recordings yet. I have an internet connection at the cabin even if a bit slow so I'll do it after settling in...

[hfmadopter]

Enjoy !

[outin]

So I have sound samples from the 2 pianos I am now considering. I will post them separately, hopefully they are not too large for the forum.

It was not the best day to test play and record because there was a lot happening in the store. Some grands were leaving and there was a couple also piano shopping, so a lot of background noise. There were people talking and trying out different pianos beside me, so much of the recorded material is unusable, but I tried to cut samples with less background noise... Also they had moved the Bosie to a very tight place away from one of the grands leaving which meant I had not enough room to sit comfortably. Don't mind the playing, I had some trouble adjusting because both pianos felt very responsive and easy to play compared to what I am used to. Also had trouble playing any pieces from memory… enough with excuses, frankly I just suck

I didn't put much effort into placing the microphone and didn't even adjust the recording level, just put the thing on the piano beside the music stand facing the strings. That and neither of the pianos not being perfectly in tune makes the recordings a bit harsh.

One of them had better keys and was more comfortable to play, but neither felt bad.

You may keep in mind that the price difference between these two pianos is 13000 euros 

[outin]

Sample recordings of piano 1 attached.

[outin]

Sample recordings of piano 2 attached.

[hfmadopter]

The first is obviously in better, or clearer anyway, tune. This brings on a state of wonder, wondering which holds tune better.

[outin]

The first is obviously in better, or clearer anyway, tune. This brings on a state of wonder, wondering which holds tune better.

I don't think we can tell really. The piano 2 probably has not been tuned for a while. The first one had been tuned the week I  was there, but it still wasn't quite perfect.

[visitor]

I don't think we can tell really. The piano 2 probably has not been tuned for a while. The first one had been tuned the week I  was there, but it still wasn't quite perfect.

would not be unreasonable to ask if the out of tune instrume t could given a quick retune, business should undrstand you need to make an apples to apples  comparo, right now its apples to steak sauce.  i think you will "feel" which is rightm if you like them both a lot, then consider it is a forever piano or you want to trade up to something else in 6-12 years or so

[quantum]

To me, #1 has much more of a singing quality and #2 is very colorful in its tone but not as assertive as the former.  It sounds like you were more comfortable playing #1, yet may have been pondering more about piano #2 when making the recording on it.

What were your impressions?

[outin]

To me, #1 has much more of a singing quality and #2 is very colorful in its tone but not as assertive as the former.  It sounds like you were more comfortable playing #1, yet may have been pondering more about piano #2 when making the recording on it.

What were your impressions?

Actually my hands were more comfortable playing piano 2, but piano 1 was better placed with less hassle around.

I personally like the sound more on piano 2 even now when I listen to the recordings.

[hfmadopter]

Piano 2 sound much like my 1889 HFM when it needs tuning. A bit mellow with some color. Being out of tune of course brings unwanted color LOL !  I'd love to hear it tuned and hear if some of what I heard in the bass ( kind of thudding and or groaning)goes away, it may well do that. The treble might sing more too. But even out of tune you can tell it's warmer sounding than the other, though the other clearer presently. Well  anyway Bluthner's are warm and Bosendorfer's sing, it's kind of the nature of both beasts.

As to playing , the bit of apprehension was probably brought on in trying to listen. It's easy to play a piano that is more in tune, you don't have to wonder if it sounds right or not.

[outin]

would not be unreasonable to ask if the out of tune instrume t could given a quick retune, business should undrstand you need to make an apples to apples  comparo, right now its apples to steak sauce.  i think you will "feel" which is rightm if you like them both a lot, then consider it is a forever piano or you want to trade up to something else in 6-12 years or so

I have trouble deciding still

I can ask piano 2 to be tuned better but I am not that worried about tuning. It only needs some TLC from my own tech. In the end our climate is such that nothing will stay in tune for long unless perfectly climate controlled. I'm used to pianos being out of tune most of the time really. I also have an option to try out the piano in my own place before deciding on the purchase and get it checked by my own tech.

[hfmadopter]

I have trouble deciding still

I can ask piano 2 to be tuned better but I am not that worried about tuning. It only needs some TLC from my own tech. In the end our climate is such that nothing will stay in tune for long unless perfectly climate controlled. I'm used to pianos being out of tune most of the time really. I also have an option to try out the piano in my own place before deciding on the purchase and get it checked by my own tech.

That option is worth more than gold, diamonds and rubies.

Hah, as far as trouble deciding, that's why I like Pianoteq, drop down menu and change it up, never out of tune unless I had dialed that into my preset. I can't stand a groaning out of tune piano, I won't play it.

[outin]

The condition of the sound board and keyboard is much better on piano 2 (Bösendorfer). There's a little crack on piano 1 (Blüthner). Also the Blühner is about 25 years older than the Bösendorfer. But for the low price I don't think the Blüthner is a bad purchase. Then again I doubt I would be happy with it for more than a few years... While it does sing, I'm not really happy with the lower register and the tone colour. The keyboard also could be a bit more responsive. It does not hurt my ears though, as some other cheaper grands and all the new Yamahas did.

As an added bonus the Blüthner is small enough to fit our elevator which makes it a lot cheaper to move if necessary. The Bösendorfer would require quite a lot of manpower to get in and out of my place with some tricky stairs.

But I still cannot decide...because grands such as the Bösendorfer are extremely rare here and I might not stumble into one again...and there really isn't anything I don't like about it, except the price of course.

[outin]

That option is worth more than gold, diamonds and rubies.

Hah, as far as trouble deciding, that's why I like Pianoteq, drop down menu and change it up, never out of tune unless I had dialed that into my preset. I can't stand a groaning out of tune piano, I won't play it.

Here we are different. I would take a slightly out of tune acoustic piano any day over a digital.

[hfmadopter]

Here we are different. I would take a slightly out of tune acoustic piano any day over a digital.

Me too if it were just a digital piano without Pianoteq and a decent sound system. No comparison. I rarely play my grand piano now. Maybe quarterly I touch up the strings and play a tune, then go back on the digital. But to just play a digital piano as it comes out of the box, no thanks.

[outin]

Me too if it were just a digital piano without Pianoteq and a decent sound system.

Haven't tried that but honestly I have just grown to really like the unpredictability of acoustics pianos and to try to emulate that seems far too much work...time better spent playing

[hfmadopter]

Haven't tried that but honestly I have just grown to really like the unpredictability of acoustics pianos and to try to emulate that seems far too much work...time better spent playing

Well there is no getting around the fact that an acoustic piano is real, regardless of what it reveals.

[hfmadopter]

Outin, you're describing number 2 as the better investment, if I'm reading this all correctly. You felt better on the keys, you like the tone better and you stated it's in better condition. Forgetting about the money ( for a minute anyway), which piano will you want to come home to and look forward to playing and practicing on ?

I'm not sure if i would willingly/knowingly buy a piano with a crack in the sound board. Especially if I planned on flipping it in a few years. A dealer is going to try and sell that for all he can get, by the same token use that as a severe downgrade on trade in. it may not even effect the tone but it's there and you know it's there. it's one thing to own it and a crack appears, you deal with it. But to knowingly buy into that is another matter to at least weigh into your thought process.

It's me thinking out loud again lol !!

[outin]

Outin, you're describing number 2 as the better investment, if I'm reading this all correctly. You felt better on the keys, you like the tone better and you stated it's in better condition. Forgetting about the money, which piano will you want to come home to and look forward to playing and practicing on ?

If they cost the same I would of course take nr 2. But the more I think about it the more my reason tells me to just get the cheaper one now. I don't want to end up with another year without one and I am not sure I am ready to decide on such a big investment right now. And I hope my tech can the Bluthner sound better than it does now. In the end I am looking for a practice tool (although it would be nice to be able to make good sounding recordings as well).

Although...  I don't think I mentioned that the bosie has ivory keys...they felt really good to play...

[hfmadopter]

If they cost the same I would of course take nr 2. But the more I think about it the more my reason tells me to just get the cheaper one now. I don't want to end up with another year without one and I am not sure I am ready to decide on such a big investment right now. And I hope my tech can the Bluthner sound better than it does now. In the end I am looking for a practice tool (although it would be nice to be able to make good sounding recordings as well).

Although...  I don't think I mentioned that the bosie has ivory keys...they felt really good to play...

In tune that is going to be a different sounding instrument, number 2. But you should ask your tech if he is really comfortable tuning a Bluther, it's a little different . i think i mentioned that already some posts ago now.

[outin]

In tune that is going to be a different sounding instrument, number 2. But you should ask your tech if he is really comfortable tuning a Bluther, it's a little different . i think i mentioned that already some posts ago now.

He's quite skilled and does plenty difficult work so that's not a problem. Besides he suggested the Bluthner in the first place when we were looking at the options online.

[hfmadopter]

He's quite skilled and does plenty difficult work so that's not a problem. Besides he suggested the Bluthner in the first place when we were looking at the options online.

Hmmm.

[outin]

Hmmm.

?
Just to clarify, the Bosie came to the picture later... it was never advertized since it was reserved but had been cancelled the day before I went there.

[hfmadopter]

?
Just to clarify, the Bosie came to the picture later... it was never advertized since it was reserved but had been cancelled the day before I went there.

Hmmm, was kind of like saying "I see". Now I say it again, I see.  It would seem un important which one was there first ?

[outin]

Hmmm, was kind of like saying "I see". Now I say it again, I see.  It would seem un important which one was there first ?

Ok, I thought you had some problem with him recommending I go check out the Bluthner

(Only because where I come from "hmmm" is usually used as a cynical/negative statement)

[hfmadopter]

Ok, I thought you had some problem with him recommending I go check out the Bluthner

(Only because where I come from "hmmm" is usually used as a cynical/negative statement)

It can be here too but that's not how I meant it, maybe I should have dropped the H. I tend to use that when texting relatives and people who know me well because its how I speak sometimes.. Call it habit. Probably not the greatest one.

[outin]

It can be here too but that's not how I meant it, maybe I should have dropped the H. I tend to use that when texting relatives and people who know me well because its how I speak sometimes.. Call it habit. Probably not the greatest one.

It's no problem for me, when in doubt, better just ask

[iansinclair]

I'm going to be so interested to see which one you settle on, if you do!  Myself, I'd pick the Bosendorfer from what you have said, and figure out how to get it into my place (there's almost always a way... though I don't recommend having to hire a crane, which I had to do once! ).

[irrational]

I may be biased, but I think everything that is posted points to the Bosendorfer except money.
Bluthner is a wonderful piano, no doubt, but ion this case I think it loses out. Even after listening.
I think money should be the last concern (I had the same issues before buying mine. Still suffering from severe credit card debt, but so worth it and when I play, the sing of the Bosendorfer puts a smile on my face every time).

I want my piano to be perfect, so any cracks will worry me. As you said the Bosendorfer is not common at all and in great condition. That means it will keep its value and it will be easier to trade if you want to get a larger one some day. A dealer will absolutely hammer you on imperfections if you try to trade the Bluthner.

A further thing on the cost. My personal view is to never compromise. Buy the best and greatest you can afford that appeals to you (within sensibility). The quality shows in the long run and the cost will not seem so much after a few years!. You will never have doubts and second thoughts that you should have done better and you don't have to go through the process again in the future. Its much less stressful and you can enjoy your purchase to the fullest.

Good luck with your decision!

[hfmadopter]

I may be biased, but I think everything that is posted points to the Bosendorfer except money.
Bluthner is a wonderful piano, no doubt, but ion this case I think it loses out. Even after listening.
I think money should be the last concern (I had the same issues before buying mine. Still suffering from severe credit card debt, but so worth it and when I play, the sing of the Bosendorfer puts a smile on my face every time).

I want my piano to be perfect, so any cracks will worry me. As you said the Bosendorfer is not common at all and in great condition. That means it will keep its value and it will be easier to trade if you want to get a larger one some day. A dealer will absolutely hammer you on imperfections if you try to trade the Bluthner.

A further thing on the cost. My personal view is to never compromise. Buy the best and greatest you can afford that appeals to you (within sensibility). The quality shows in the long run and the cost will not seem so much after a few years!. You will never have doubts and second thoughts that you should have done better and you don't have to go through the process again in the future. Its much less stressful and you can enjoy your purchase to the fullest.

Good luck with your decision!

Course it's not our money and not for us to say but I feel about the same way. In the end though, it makes a difference if this cleans out the bank account entirely and if that bank account was mad money, saved money just for this purpose or the purchase cuts into essential money . Again none of our business.

That's ok, I'm not even sure I know which piano is which any more lol !!

[visitor]

did i miss something? updates? 

[outin]

did i miss something? updates? 

Nothing to update really... I've been enjoying my holiday and given myself some time off making any decisions. Instead I went to a recital today to hear some wonderful piano music live like Scriabin's 8th and (I have to whisper so that Thal won't hear) Sorabji's 1st sonata.

One more week before I will return home and then I'll probably be able to let you know...

[outin]

Finally an update:
I called the dealer yeasterday and told him that I will buy the Blüthner. It will be delivered some time next week. I really appreciate all your help and opinions. But of course in the end I take full responsibility for my decision

There were other things but basically I wanted to keep my options open in case I decide to move in a few years and have more room and more choices. I think this one will serve me well for a few years after my tech has worked his magic on it. And because of the size and price it will be easier to get rid of if I run into something I really cannot live without...

[visitor]

Right on! I think wise choice and as you exorcise.its own little demons you may find you like it more than eexpectex I know that was the case w my little sleeper of a grand, after a few years of tinkering and having my tech shore up some factory shortfall and lack if dealer prep, i addoremy litttle grand (for now    )

[hfmadopter]

Nice Outin !! I'm sure your tech will iron it right out. Congratulations ! Smiling with you over here in the US this morning !

[quantum]

Congratulations Outin!

[iansinclair]

Hooray!  Enjoy it!

[irrational]

Enjoy the new piano!
And please upload a snippet once its been regulated and tuned to your satisfaction.

[outin]

There has been some delay due to my schedules, but the piano will finally be delivered tomorrow evening... I hope it will be a beginning of a beautiful relationship. I do understand that relationships need work, so I have been told

[hfmadopter]

There has been some delay due to my schedules, but the piano will finally be delivered tomorrow evening... I hope it will be a beginning of a beautiful relationship. I do understand that relationships need work, so I have been told

That's awesome , Outin !

[outin]

Update:

The Blüthner arrived finally!

I will not be able to make recordings yet, because the damper pedal is making so much noise, which the dealer has to repair. It will be done when it is tuned after settling a little. The dealer does offer 5 year guarantee on used pianos, which is good when buying such an old one. If something actually breaks at least I won't have to pay everything from my own pocket.

After this is done I will ask my tech to come and evaluate what he thinks should be done with it now and how much is worth it considering the age and model. Since it's from 1950 it is surely in need for work, and I am prepared to pay for it to a certain level. But I do also need to consider if I want to instead update in a few years.

I have only been home late in the evening after it arrived, so I have only been able to play briefly yesterday and haven't tried it with the lid open yet...
But despite the problem with the pedal and one of the lowest bass dampers stucking I think it sounds nice in my living room (which is a concrete block). It's mellow and singing, very different to most new pianos I have played. Even if the tuning is what it is, there's no such harshness that disturbs me in most pianos I have played. The bass is not that deep as is expected with this size, but I don't mind, since my upright has a bass that is far too loud and I am sick of it... High volume isn't even something I wanted, I don't have a large space for the piano and my ears hurt very easily.

It also fits my hands much better than my upright, the keys are more responsive and I think they may actually be slightly smaller. I don't know if and when it has been regulated, so there's probably lot to do in that depertment...

Good thing I have some Baroque pieces to practice, so I can play without the pedal for now. Will be able to really try it out this weekend. I am a realist, so I do expect little things to come out in use...

Oh, and the cats really love it!  

[quantum]

Good to hear!  Any chance of photos while we await the recording?

[outin]

Good to hear!  Any chance of photos while we await the recording?

Of course, I can take some this weekend. I personally couldn't care less how pianos look though, only how they sound and play...as long as they are not white of course

Edit: Just called the dealer and they will come tomorrow to fix the pedal. So need some other excuse to not record something this weekend 

[hfmadopter]

Outin, about the cats: Watch them closely for a time with the grand piano in the house, in two ways. One is they may try to bat your dampers around. And secondly, that they don't go inside the piano and want to try and mark territory. I like to keep my piano top up on the low stick and when I do that and leave it that way overnight my music rest assembly can be slid over the dampers on mine. Any cats we have owned over the last 30+ years were only interested in this for a period of time but if I left the top fully open I could find a cat sleeping in there. In my case, the piano sounds best in this room on the low stick anyway. Of the many cats we have owned , one tried to urinate inside my piano. But with the piano on the low stick everyting becomes a bit awkward for the cats, that's the good news.

And what ever you do, regardless of how many music books you have seen with flower arrangements on top of a grand piano, never ever do that with water in a vase with cats around. You surely will find it tipped over and the water will run right down through the hinged area and on top of your dampers and strings and ultimately rest on your sound board. If you are lucky you will find it in time to mop it up quickly with no damage done..

Just a word to the already cat conscious wise, lol !!