brogers what you are describing is phrasing, and I agree, that this aspect of legato is created by the fingers. I did not make it quite clear at my original post, that I am referring more on how to connect notes. With that i mean, that there is not the slightest pause between them. And that on passages where multiple voices are played with one hand. the paradox I am talking about might become more evident with the following exampleswhile pressing down the pedal, finger legato on:double 3rds/6ths in fast tempitrying to connect the upper voice on successive chordsholding notes and playing the melody with one hand. typical scenario:arpeggiated chords on the left hand (with pedal), while the right hand is playing a melody in octaves. An old teacher I had used to tell me I should connect the octaves with the fingers so they are connected even without pedal. That involves special and sometimes awkward fingering (using 5,4,3 on the right hand) while the same passage could be played just with thumb and pinky much easier, and with better phrasing, because there is no tension in the hand
I find it equivalent to not walking under ladders.
hello malabdal, I did not say to play all octaves with thumb and pinky, I am saying that when there is a passage which is easier to play that way, with the help of the pedal, you should not be dogmatic and consider that as an option. Let's say, the final measures of the "black key" Etude, which if I remember correctly, is descending double octaves on the black keys. Would you bother there using 4th and 3rd finger trying to connect the upper voice? Of course not, you hit the octaves with 1-5, it's much easier.
And up to that point, I can follow.I have often heard the opinion that playing finger legato makes a difference in sound, a more beautiful sound, even when using the pedal. (therefore it is suggested to play finger legato in Beethoven and even Chopin). Are there any advocates of this opinion and if yes, can you explain this a bit?This sounds quite paradoxical to me, and quite mysterious that even acclaimed pianists support this thesis.Everyone who knows the basics mechanics of the piano is aware that when you press down the pedal, all dampers raise. Whether you keep a key pressed or not after the hammer hits the string, while the pedal is down, it makes no difference. That is not a matter of opinion, this is physics.(I don't refer to the specific case where finger legato is executed with selective pedaling because in this case, it makes perfect sense as it gives more options in terms of sound color)Some editions of Chopin nocturnes, for instance, indicate finger legato in places where more notes are held, like you would do in a fugue (this becomes apparent by the fingering, with finger substitutions being the most obvious indicator) but in places where the pedal is pressed down.The thing is, that some passages are somewhat tough to play like that. Why connect with fingers AND pedal, when you can connect just with pedal with much more ease and control over your sound?It seems to me that there is a lot of finger-legato-mania out there. Is it just my impression, or has become finger-legato an end in itself in teaching?
I came across another perfect example which might be of interest, to further give insight into this erroneous way of thinking (and teaching) with respect to unnecessarily holding the notes while pedaling.This lady here shares her insights about the Chopin Prelude op.28 No.8:Her attitude is mirrored in her statements like "1024 thirty-second notes" and "this is a workout". And if you think about it, she actually made a workout out of it, since she chose to hold the inner-melody notes for their whole value with the thumb and suggests that this is the way to go. It goes without saying that the thirty-second notes don't flow as fast and effortless when you hold the thumb down.It is a virtuoso piece indeed but does this mean we have to hurt ourselves? Try it out yourself, both ways and see how can you play faster and more expressivelyNow see how a great pianist does it, for example, Marta Argerich (you can also slow down the video to see her hands better)A typical example of applying concepts blindly imo.
It goes without saying that the thirty-second notes don't flow as fast and effortless when you hold the thumb down.
It is a virtuoso piece indeed but does this mean we have to hurt ourselves? Try it out yourself, both ways and see how can you play faster and more expressively
anamnesis, hello again It is possible to play the prelude with sticky thumb, but it takes more effort. The beginning bars are ok, but it is not always that easy as later you have to move in and away from the black key area while still holding the thumb(during the same beat) which results in either twisting or curled fingers. (in my situation, the fingers get stuck between the black keys)But the question is not how, but why. Why do it here, when half-pedaling with rotational movements towards the thumb produces a beautiful sound, not too muddy or too dry, with the melody notes sustaining nicely through the figuration?
btw op.25 No.6 is a monster(!), way more difficult than the prelude. Are you sure it is a good idea to go from difficult to easy?
You open a vast subject now, that of analyzing and interpreting Chopin's works. I quite agree though that the rhythms/note values are not always to be taken literally. Don't know much about schenkerian analysis, you believe it is essential to understanding a work by Chopin?
If you don't quite have the skill to hold it, then given no other choice, I agree. I'm just mentioning how to actually get it done so that it feels like you are using the same amount of effort. It's not the amount of effort between doing it or not that is the problem. But the increase in effort from lacking the coordination. So skipping to this part of your post:If 25 no 6 seems daunting, it is a sign that holding notes will be an issue.
Holding the notes with the thumb does in no way have to cause us to hurt ourselves. Holding the notes with thumb does allow us to be more creative with the pedal though. What if you want to play some figures unpedalled, or with quarter pedal? =527