What?! You're black!: A greeting that’s all too familiar

[d_b_christopher]

Hello Chaps and Chapettes,

I was recently on the receiving end of some racist abuse that has, to put it lightly, tipped me over the edge.  I would like to open a dialogue on the issue, raise awareness and source some insight from others.

It is nothing new, however, after prolonged exposure, it does get a little old.

https://dacapoacademy.co.uk/articles/what_youre_black/

This article is not a plea for sympathy, but a genuine outburst of frustration and cry for some help with understanding.

Some questions:

• Have you or someone you know ever experienced racism in classical music?
• If so, how did it make you feel, and what did you do about it?
• Given the recent rise to fame and of two high profile 'ethnic' minority-musicians (Sheku Kanneh Mason and Tokio Myers), are things changing?

Note: These questions are not exclusive to 'ethnic' minority-musicians

[beethovenfan01]

Here's an odd feeling I get ...

So, I'm white.

But for the past two or three years, at almost every piano event I've been too, most of the musicians are either Asian or Indian. Is it a bad thing that I feel like an oddball? I have nothing against hard-working Asian musicians--in fact, almost all my musician friends are Asian. But it makes me wonder, though.

Why is it that (from what I can see in my geographical experience, at least) that the majority of accomplished young musicians (for example, most the Portland Youth Philharmonic) are mostly Asian, with only a very few exceptions? Why is it so rare for white kids to be skilled musicians now (exception one family that I know)? What does this imply about our demographic's work ethic? It doesn't give me a good feeling at all. Not exactly racism, but more like a curiosity.

Thoughts?

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Okay so this is the genre of classical music.

All the composers are white men
All the concert goers are white
All the all time great famous pianists are white (though recently we're starting to see Asian)
All the professors are white.
All the doners are white.
All the competitions have white contestants and winners (recently we've been seeing more Asian)
All the judges are white.

I'm talking about canon classical music that people actually care about not no Clara Schumann, Andre Watts, George Walker, or Florence Price (even though I think they're great)

And Classical music BY PURE COINCIDENCE is considered HIGH CLASS art, the BEST art, ELITE art, SOPHISTICATED art blah blah blah

Just a reminder...  THIS IS JUST A COINCIDENCE AND THIS ISN'T A REFLECTION OF HISTORY OR POWER DYNAMICS IN SOCIETY

So tbh I EXPECT to get weird reactions from people when they find out I'm a clsssical pianist.  Well first they assume that I'm a jazz pianist THEN when I tell them I'm a classical pianist I get a weird reaction out of them.

[mjames]

hype

[rachmaninoff_forever]

hype

You need to change your signature I've been meaning to tell you.

It's lame

[clouseau]

Christopher what you describe must be very frustrating. But it is the others who have the problem, not you. Racism is still a big problem in our society and in that regard, we are still in the middle ages.

Where I live (Greece) racism is a huge problem. Few years ago a black guy with greek nationality (his parents from Nigeria) proved to be a great Basketball player ( the "greek-freak" if you are into NBA) and suddenly everyone loves him in Greece although he is black. He is Greeks pride now. That is what annoys me, that inconsistency, to be a racist deep down, but pretend not to be depending on the circumstances. ( I believe something similar happens in the world of classical music)

As for how to deal with people who have a racist mindset, I think telling them they are racist does not touch them (they have heard that too often). One has to go deeper, and expose the faulty thinking process. I usually don't have the courage/energy for that, and just try avoiding them.

[mjames]

You need to change your signature I've been meaning to tell you.

It's lame

Agreed, grew out of it tbh. Any suggestions?

[d_b_christopher]

Christopher what you describe must be very frustrating. But it is the others who have the problem, not you. Racism is still a big problem in our society and in that regard, we are still in the middle ages.

Where I live (Greece) racism is a huge problem. Few years ago a black guy with greek nationality (his parents from Nigeria) proved to be a great Basketball player ( the "greek-freak" if you are into NBA) and suddenly everyone loves him in Greece although he is black. He is Greeks pride now. That is what annoys me, that inconsistency, to be a racist deep down, but pretend not to be depending on the circumstances. ( I believe something similar happens in the world of classical music)

As for how to deal with people who have a racist mindset, I think telling them they are racist does not touch them (they have heard that too often). One has to go deeper, and expose the faulty thinking process. I usually don't have the courage/energy for that, and just try avoiding them.

I switch off mentally while nodding and smiling.  However, this does not make it hurt any less.

[outin]

Whether the person in question actually is a racist or not, it's certainly rude... I think it's normal to be surprised if you have built a mental image of someone you have not met before and it turns out wrong. You just don't say it loud. Imagine someone saying "What, you are fat? You sounded so thin...".

People get my gender wrong a lot on the net. It does not offend me, quite the opposite, because it just proves how irrelevant gender is in most context. But it might be different if that happened often in my professional life. As in "What, they sent a woman to this meeting?". Because the next question is would a woman be invited if given the choice. Such things could not happen much before here though, because the names were so gender specific. But after the rise of immigration I frequently do not know the gender of the people who's affairs I am handling. Gender is not registered in our system. So I do indeed get it wrong sometimes. Is that a problem? Should not in what I do, I am supposed to treat everyone the same unless there is a specific legitimate reason not to.

"Race" as a concept should not even exist anymore in any official context, unfortunately it is still used even in countries that appear to be civilized   When it comes to profiling, skin tone or hair colour are things matter to me so little I rarely even think about it beforehand. It is however interesting to me whether the person can communicate well with any language I know. If not I know it will be difficult so I will have expectations. And my expectations can of course be wrong if based on only the name of a person, because someone with a foreign name can be born and raised here. So this  is something that I need to be very careful about, especially when recruiting. And I can see how a person might feel if I blurted out something like: "Oh, you actually speak/are Finnish" when meeting someone who has a strange name or looks foreign for the first time. Because they get that a lot and enough is enough...

the bigger issue is really not the rude behavior (not to mean it should be accepted) but how conscious and unconscious profiling will affect people's chances in life. We should not try to ignore such thinking patterns in ourselves pretending they do not exist because they are normal. How you act matters more. And how you act will gradually have an effect on how you think as well, it's not just the other way round. After one learns to treat people in a neutral way one also does less "profiling" to begin with. But we all do it to some extend, because of our previous experiences. Or in the most unfortunate cases because of pure ignorance or upbringing.

[d_b_christopher]

Here's an odd feeling I get ...

So, I'm white.

But for the past two or three years, at almost every piano event I've been too, most of the musicians are either Asian or Indian. Is it a bad thing that I feel like an oddball? I have nothing against hard-working Asian musicians--in fact, almost all my musician friends are Asian. But it makes me wonder, though.

Why is it that (from what I can see in my geographical experience, at least) that the majority of accomplished young musicians (for example, most the Portland Youth Philharmonic) are mostly Asian, with only a very few exceptions? Why is it so rare for white kids to be skilled musicians now (exception one family that I know)? What does this imply about our demographic's work ethic? It doesn't give me a good feeling at all. Not exactly racism, but more like a curiosity.

Thoughts?

Culture has a large impact; read Lang Lang's biography 'Lang Lang: Playing with Flying Keys' and you will understand why people work so hard and achieve such high standards.

"Lang Lang No. 1"; he was not afforded the luxuries that western children have come to enjoy.

[d_b_christopher]

Imagine someone saying "What, you are fat? You sounded so thin...".

I just spat out my Coffee over my keyboard, thank you.

[d_b_christopher]

Okay so this is the genre of classical music.

All the composers are white men
All the concert goers are white
All the all time great famous pianists are white (though recently we're starting to see Asian)
All the professors are white.
All the doners are white.
All the competitions have white contestants and winners (recently we've been seeing more Asian)
All the judges are white.

I'm talking about canon classical music that people actually care about not no Clara Schumann, Andre Watts, George Walker, or Florence Price (even though I think they're great)

And Classical music BY PURE COINCIDENCE is considered HIGH CLASS art, the BEST art, ELITE art, SOPHISTICATED art blah blah blah

Just a reminder...  THIS IS JUST A COINCIDENCE AND THIS ISN'T A REFLECTION OF HISTORY OR POWER DYNAMICS IN SOCIETY

So tbh I EXPECT to get weird reactions from people when they find out I'm a clsssical pianist.  Well first they assume that I'm a jazz pianist THEN when I tell them I'm a classical pianist I get a weird reaction out of them.

Everything you have said is true; your text is quite ... eye-catching!  Thank you for sharing.

Many people also assume I am a Jazz musician also.

[outin]

Okay so this is the genre of classical music.

All the composers are white men
All the concert goers are white
All the all time great famous pianists are white (though recently we're starting to see Asian)
All the professors are white.
All the doners are white.
All the competitions have white contestants and winners (recently we've been seeing more Asian)
All the judges are white.

I'm talking about canon classical music that people actually care about not no Clara Schumann, Andre Watts, George Walker, or Florence Price (even though I think they're great)

And Classical music BY PURE COINCIDENCE is considered HIGH CLASS art, the BEST art, ELITE art, SOPHISTICATED art blah blah blah

Just a reminder...  THIS IS JUST A COINCIDENCE AND THIS ISN'T A REFLECTION OF HISTORY OR POWER DYNAMICS IN SOCIETY

So tbh I EXPECT to get weird reactions from people when they find out I'm a clsssical pianist.  Well first they assume that I'm a jazz pianist THEN when I tell them I'm a classical pianist I get a weird reaction out of them.

Since you cannot change it all, make sure you take full advantage of being a novelty!

I would not go to an R4 concert just because he's a cute black guy though, if I knew he sounded like sh*t. So do not forget to practice...

[mjames]

don't you just love it when girls get all excited when they hear you're a pianist because they expect some soothing jazz medleys until you ruin their night by playing some weird Schoenberg piece. 

[outin]

don't you just love it when girls get all excited when they hear you're a pianist because they expect some soothing jazz medleys until you ruin their night by playing some weird Schoenberg piece. 

Beware...you may ran into someone weird one day

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Since you cannot change it all, make sure you take full advantage of being a novelty!

I would not go to an R4 concert just because he's a cute black guy though, if I knew he sounded like sh*t. So do not forget to practice...

I actually started taking jazz lessons and I'm trying to do a set with a singer for a house concert some time next month.  I still don't really know what I'm doing but Ima give it a shot anyways.

So I guess soon enough people will be accurate in just calling me a jazz pianist

Also I'm thinking of going for a bald look.

[outin]

I actually started taking jazz lessons and I'm trying to do a set with a singer for a house concert some time next month.  I still don't really know what I'm doing but Ima give it a shot anyways.

So I guess soon enough people will be accurate in just calling me a jazz pianist

Also I'm thinking of going for a bald look.

Do spread out occasionally if you wish, but do not waste my hands!

I would keep the hair though...it will offer some protection not only from cold but also on impact.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Do spread out occasionally if you wish, but do not waste my hands!

I would keep the hair though...it will offer some protection not only from cold but also on impact.

My hair is thinning so I mm gonna end up bald anyways.  I'm super salty and self conscious about it though

[outin]

My hair is thinning so I mm gonna end up bald anyways.  I'm super salty and self conscious about it though

Really? So you got poor genes...wear a cool hat then!

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Really? So you got poor genes...wear a cool hat then!

DUDE IM ONLY 22 WHAT THE HECK

I can hide it if I keep my hair short but that'll only last a few years maybe

[mjames]

My hair is thinning so I mm gonna end up bald anyways.  I'm super salty and self conscious about it though

wait a second.
ok...here it goes


HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHA.

Done.

[mike71]

Whether the person in question actually is a racist or not, it's certainly rude... I think it's normal to be surprised if you have built a mental image of someone you have not met before and it turns out wrong. You just don't say it loud. Imagine someone saying "What, you are fat? You sounded so thin...".

I am from Italy, and I have type 2 diabetes. I follow a diet, so I rarely eat tagliatelle alla bolognese o polennta alla bolognese (spaghetti are spaghetti alla napoleatana not alla bolognese btw), i topped eating pasta al burro (USA: pasta alfredo) and fried chips, not to mention pizza. I have eaten a small slice of cake 30 days ago, you get the picture.
To keep blood sugars in control I follow a strict diet regimen, before the diagnosis I was eatig a pizza once or twice a week, the quick dish was some spaghetti and some butter - i LOVED to eat something new and going to restaurants, you could figure how it's hard for me to follow the diet.
A side effect of the diet is hat I am not fact to be precise I am over 4 kg of my ideal weight or 2 kg if I use another calculation.

Happened that people asked me how can I have diabetes in I am not fat. This makes me a bit angry, Worse some people are saying that I had diabetes because I have eaten too many sweets.

As you can see #racism# could take a lot of aspects, even conditions are profiled. Unfortunately in a lot of cases prejudices are amplifed by media and politicians instead to be rationalized.
A friend of mine is a mezzo soprano. From San Francisco, She's black and took Italian citizenship two years ago. And speaks a perfect frencs except she puts all accent like the Quebecois.
And likes to tanche Berlin-style techno.

How'going with stereotypes?

[d_b_christopher]

I am from Italy, and I have type 2 diabetes. I follow a diet, so I rarely eat tagliatelle alla bolognese o polennta alla bolognese (spaghetti are spaghetti alla napoleatana not alla bolognese btw), i topped eating pasta al burro (USA: pasta alfredo) and fried chips, not to mention pizza. I have eaten a small slice of cake 30 days ago, you get the picture.
To keep blood sugars in control I follow a strict diet regimen, before the diagnosis I was eatig a pizza once or twice a week, the quick dish was some spaghetti and some butter - i LOVED to eat something new and going to restaurants, you could figure how it's hard for me to follow the diet.
A side effect of the diet is hat I am not fact to be precise I am over 4 kg of my ideal weight or 2 kg if I use another calculation.

Happened that people asked me how can I have diabetes in I am not fat. This makes me a bit angry, Worse some people are saying that I had diabetes because I have eaten too many sweets.

As you can see #racism# could take a lot of aspects, even conditions are profiled. Unfortunately in a lot of cases prejudices are amplifed by media and politicians instead to be rationalized.
A friend of mine is a mezzo soprano. From San Francisco, She's black and took Italian citizenship two years ago. And speaks a perfect frencs except she puts all accent like the Quebecois.
And likes to tanche Berlin-style techno.

How'going with stereotypes?

I think racism is perhaps one form of discrimination and prejudice.  This is why in recent years we have seen a rise in movements such as pro-feminism, and body-positivity.  Unfortunately, there are zealots in every case who push the agenda pass what is realistic or fair.

There are derogatory names used for these people; however, it creates a strawman argument, that being anyone who exhibits the slightest protest to any discrimination is then labeled as:

Femi-Nazi
Using the race card
Social Justice Warrior

Adversely the opposition

Mansplainer
Rascist
Regressive

Thank you for your courage, posting about your personal struggle.

[lostinidlewonder]

We are different races but each of us are individuals. I have come across racial bias a few times in teaching. I am half Chinese/German (I have a Chinese surname) and look more European but I know some Chinese students actually prefer 100% Chinese teachers, they have some kind of allegiance to their "motherland" and prefer lessons conducted in their own language or by people who look 100% Chinese. This of course is not something that occurs all the time but it does happen so when I meet new Chinese students and their family I am wary of the possibility of their values and attitudes in this respect. This is just a tendency in their behaviour which is anchored within their race. I am not being irrationally racist painting the entire race with one brush I am just aware that this pattern of behavior that can exist.

When some asked stupid questions to my mother "oh I thought you were Chinese based on your name" she would give an equally stupid response "oh I had plastic surgery". Sometimes stupid people require stupid answers because they still remain in their ignorance with normal education. I could never imagine the intensity of racism that comes with being black, I teach a number of black students and like discussing racism with them when appropriate and some stories they have shared are just simply dumbfounding. In a way however racism helps you weed out undesirable people.

[mike71]

Thank you for your courage, posting about your personal struggle.

Thank you. It's hard but there are a lot of successful people with diabetes, like Theresa May. Or between musicians BB King, the lead singer of Poison a Johnny Cash.

Back on topic on prejudice and racism in Europe and in Italy the race and skin colour is perceived differently compared to USA, I think because the slavery period.
And Italy and catholic churches are full of blak Virgis, in Rome there are more than a dozen of black Virgin paintings or statues. Negro is a fairly common north Italy surname, with the Dal Negro playing card company, there are an half dozen of Negro wine makers.
On the other hand we had the privilege to have the real and original Fascist dictatorship, so the 'neri' ot the black shirts were the bad guys...
 


On the other hand in the last period a lot of people arrived from war zone like Syria and central Africa and this caused a lot of problems and especially with the poorest Italian people this cause a pejudice and racism surge. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43030951

Apologies for other Italians reading this, I oversemplified a rather complex argument.

[mjames]

speaking as half african/european that's currently living in the US for school, the slang may be different but the racism is very much the same. : )

[tinyhands]

I am always quite surprised at the racism geared towards ‘non-whites’ in the classical music world, and also the sexism towards female performers. Yuja wang gets it for being Asian AND a woman who doesn’t dress ‘appropriately’ for the stuffy male..white middle classes. Do you think it all goes back to white imperialism..? the middle/upper classes feel they lay claim to the highbrow civilized ‘classics’ and how could other races/ nations possibly understand something that is seen as so highbrow. !?Is that where it stems from, cause I really don’t understand it. As a white female I am often feel out of place at a concert especially  in the UK...it’s usually full of pompous white old men bleating on about stuff they know very little about, And I’m always struck at how few black or Asian people are in the audience. When you look at a family like the Kanneh-Mason’s that the OP mentioned, well they are a family of brilliant musicians..I love how one family of 7 can be so dedicated, so talented but I have seen a lot of negative comments and press about them. Infact when Sheku Kanneh-Mason won Young Muscian of the Year a few years ago I read some horrible stuff about him, things like ‘it was a PC sympathy vote’...how he ‘couldn’t possibly understand and convey the music he was playing...’ etc etc.
Here was a young guy that was a BRILIANT muscian..infact the family of Jaqueline du Pre commented on how good he was..and how he reminded them of her. He moved me to tears with his beautiful playing yet he had the critics bashing him. I can only put this down to a combination of snobbery, jealously and racism.
It really is time we got over all this crap. It’s 2018 for god sake, we live in a diverse multicultural world. The days of the Empire are long gone. Music is music, who cares what creed, colour or gender play it. music is a beautiful thing to be shared and explored by everyone.
I also feel class also comes into it ..especially in the UK. I know many people who feel out of place or intimidated and would never go to a classical concert or Opera...I also think secretly the boards of trustees and governors like the fact it is seen as highbrow or slightly unattainable...it keeps it ‘exclusive’...god forbid the common masses got onboard...there would be anarchy... ( sarcasm of course...)

[mike71]

Opera was a popular genre, followed by all kind of people above the poverty level. It become an "high class" genre in the XX century. My grandfather was a rabid opera fan and I still have a "Cavalleria Rusticana" opera in 78 rpm bough by him before WWII, he was a Fiat worker and made only first grade schools.
Jazz music also was a popular genre but now is considere a posh and classy music to listen to.

I suppose that some problem are cause due the bad music teaching that is made in schools, where if classical pieces are used as a tools to make exercises makes pupils to hate classical music.

About women in classical music, yes it's a long problem, but also in pop and electronic music is.

But it all boils down to gender polarization, that unfortunately in worsening angain in the XXI century. Seel Lego advertising for instance, or kid's furniture offers.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

SO...

Apparently...

There are currently no black directors of ANY major American orchestras.  
only 4.2% of musicians in American orchestras are black and latinx COMBINED.
Less than 0.5% of the directors of those orchestras are black/latinx
Less than 1% of music performed by those orchestras are black/latinx composers

I lost the source for this but I'll find it again

[tinyhands]

After this topic came up I was listening to BBC Desert Island Discs (Uk forum members will know this radio programme) and they interviewed Chi Chi Nwanoku Who is a female bassist and the founder of the first black and ethnic minority orchestra ‘Chineke foundation’ it was really interesting hearing her talk, about being told not only was she black she was playing a ‘male’ instrument..so had a few disadvantages. She mentioned how some music conservatories are now doing ‘blind auditions’ where prospective students audition behind screens so there is no prejudice..interesting! Anyway worth a listen if you can.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09r3qty

https://www.chi-chinwanoku.com/chineke-foundation/

[bernadette60614]

The world is changing...and thank God (who whatever high power in which one chooses to believe in) for that!

I'm not black, but I am a woman.  For years, I was the only woman in a certain professional circle.  I've been 1) paid less than the most junior male 2) had business I brought in taken away from me and given to a man 3) told my the Managing Director of our firm that while I was the best professional on staff I should lower my professional expectations because clients wanted to "see someone just like themselves" in business situations.

Bias exists, and bias quite frankly goes beyond ignorance, it is flat out stupid.  The sheer waste of talent and great work is appalling.

[tinyhands]

I was reminded of this post and a comment I had made about the wonderful Sheku Kanneh -Mason when I saw he was the cellist for the Uk Royal wedding last week. I’m not a royalist by any means but it was amazing to see this talented young man get the opportunity to reach a global audience.  I think he is quite wonderful , infact his siblings are all so talented. His sister was up for BBC young musician this year but didn’t make the final unfortunately.   I have attached link for those who didn’t see it, hopefully it will work