Finger independence exercise questions

[etogmajor]

I'm gonna get real nitty gritty about phenomena that happens in my hands.

I've been trying to figure out how to improve my technical ability over the last couple of months. An old teacher of mine suggested Schmitt's Exercices pour les cinq doigts, and honestly I haven't heard anyone mention this exercise book on the internet, so I don't imagine it's a popular book. I don't even know the author's first name.

Anyway, I'll go with Liszt's technical exercises to speak a more universal language, or like Hanon or something like that

Basically, the exercise in Liszt's finger independence practice is to hold down all fingers but one. That one finger then plays different rhythms.

I've heard the two camps on these sorts of exercises, and it seems the more popular, modern thought is that they're useless, and wrist rotation magically makes everything playable.

I'm approaching these exercises with the assumption that they're useful, because Liszt probably knows what he is talking about? I'd assume so anyway.

Okay general rules that I've heard when playing these exercises:

A quiet hand (what does that mean? My hand never makes noise when playing)
assuming that means that your hand doesn't move, how extreme is that meant to be? Is it just not to use rotation to play? Or is it like your hand is in a metal mould fit specifically to your hand. I ask because, when I try to play just with my finger, there seems to be a rebound effect that bounces my hand slightly. Is this undesirable?

Also, when lifting fingers, the tendons(?) on the back of your hand flex, but not when pushing down. So my old teacher says you can push down with fingers, but let the key bring your finger back up. It's just a matter of relaxing your finger, not pulling the finger back, because the key will do the work for you. This doesn't really work for me with my 3rd finger. When I press my 3rd finger down with my other hand (so I don't activate any muscle) my finger just naturally keeps the key down without me holding any pressure. Just the architecture of the finger is such that the key can't push it back up, so I have to pull my finger back up.

About the only thing that makes sense without question is to keep fingers touching the keys the whole time while doing these exercises.

Also, my 4th finger knuckle tends to raise when I play that finger, especially when I push hard.

Also, when playing my 4th finger independent from anything else, my 3rd finger tendon(?) (man I don't know, the rope cord looking thing on the back of your hand for each finger) has to flex even harder to keep the 3rd finger from coming down with the 4th finger.

Also, my fifth finger seems to bring the knuckle down when playing, like the knuckle sinks when I play that finger. This tends to pull my 4th finger and cause it to move toward the fifth finger slightly.

Are these movements allowed? Are they in keeping with the "quiet hand" playing. Will they go away with strength? Should I not be satisfied unless there are absolutely none of these movements?

[adodd81802]

Sounds like you're massively overthinking this.

Scrutinising every little detail like this you'll end up going insane.

I don't know your skill level, but I'd like to stress a couple points (this is mostly down to opinion here)

1 - Almost nobody plays the piano the same, some play with flat fingers, curved fingers, some of us have long fingers small palms, some of us have short fingers big palms, some can reach an octave, some can reach a 12th, some of us curl the little finger when playing other fingers e.t.c. and this can all be evidenced by professional and advanced pianists

2 - Being a professional or even an accomplished pianist is not about being the best pianist. it's not about being able to play every piece of music, about being note perfect, about making difficult pieces look effortless. There are plenty of professional pianists that avoid different pieces, or have particular trouble with certain pieces that others make look easy.

3 - Don't scrutinise the specific ways that you play until something doesn't work.

Let me give you an example, skip to 6 minutes 10 seconds

Check the way this blind autistic pianist plays his scales. (he proceeds to play flight of the bumble bee)

Note he cannot see how his hands looks, he cannot see a finger looking ever so slightly higher than another e.t.c. he simply plays.

As someone that cannot even see music, I can presume he hasn't gone through Liszt or Schmidt exercises. (Aloys Schmidt btw)

I think if you have 8-10 hours a day to practice the piano, consider strict exercises as part of your daily practice.

However if like the average person you have 2-4 hours, i'd honestly focus on the piece of music you are trying to play, and consider breaking that up into little exercises of your own, based on the general principles of practice such as; slow practice, rhythm practice, repetition practice, dynamic practice.

Thinking about the sound you are trying to achieve will more naturally create the response from your fingers that you desire, rather than trying to look and feel something that my never lead to the results you're trying for.

[mjames]

That's also the premise behind Dohnanyi's finger exercises: keeping the hand still, no wrist rotation, all finger resting on keys except the ones you're using, and no stress (stay relaxed). I worked on the first 5 exercises (just one page really) out of 50 for 1 month with a teacher, never touched the exercises again. Notable effects were improved striking ability, dynamic control, and of course finger independence. I should note that the way you're practicing the exercises isn't the way you're supposed to play music. Typically exercises like Dohnanyi focus specifically on a single technical problem, so it's best to restrict movement as much as possible so the student can focus on the goals of the exercise. So even though Liszt or Dohnanyi tell you not to use your wrists for an exercise, it's not like they're telling you to do the same for their actual music.

"Physical problems" like the restrictions in your 3rd and 4th fingers due to tendons tend to decrease through continued practice. Though you'll never be able to use them like you use your other fingers, flexibility will be greatly improved. Just make sure not emphasize speed as you might end up injuring yourself.


P.S. Don't place too much weight on finger exercises. Also make sure you're studying real music alongside them, for example I worked on Bach preludes/fugues with the Dohnanyi. Best way to work on your finger independence imo.

[etogmajor]

Thanks for the replies.

I'm a chronic overthinker. It'll probably kill me.

My repertoire currently is

Chopin Op. 10 No 4
Mozart Sonata K331
Bach Prelude and Fugue in F Bk 2
Debussy Pagodes
Schumann In Der Nacht

Anyway, I'm hammering out this Chopin Etude, and like, I've been working on it for a while and the hard parts don't ever seem to become do able. Perhaps I'm too obsessed with trying to get technique.

Also, I practice on a Yamaha NU1, which is their hybrid upright electric piano. Immense buyer's remorse I have, but also it's all I got right now and I don't know how much I should blame it for my failings

[outin]

When you consider old technique exercises and read about what some pianist did 150 years ago it's good to remember that most modern pianos are not as light to play. And some uprights can be especially difficult to play. My Yamaha was a nightmare, now I have an older grand and everything is so much easier. Your hand size and joint structure will also affect your technique. All this put together: You need to find a way to play technically difficult parts that works for you and the instrument and the music. With old finger exercises it's sometimes safer to ignore the written instructions...