CURRENT Thoughts on Valentina Lisitsa?

[jsolo10]

Hi. Brand new to this forum but not classical piano in general. In fact, it is the pianist named in this thread's subject, Valentina Lisitsa, who has in part rekindled my interest in the subject. There are several threads on this forum about her, but none I can find over the past few years.

Here's my question. It seems like the reviews of her work in those old threads I referenced were mixed at best -- that she's somewhat polarizing. What I would like to know is if anyone's opinion of her has changed over the past few years. As some of you may know, she has been releasing videos on Youtube this year of all of Beethoven's 32 piano sonatas, although apparently the project has been put on hold due to an inability to enter Russia at this time, where she has been recording these. I, for one, am thoroughly enjoying just about all of these performances, and, again, would just like to know if anyone here has seen them as well and think she has evolved. Thanks.

[perfect_pitch]

The one thing I believe is that she is a brilliant show-woman. She's like a female version of Liszt. Liszt was admired and had an incredible technique, Lisitsa is a woman who seems to have no tension in her arms and wrists whatsoever and plays effortlessly.

A lot of people are jealous of that. I'll admit, if I had the chance to just practice 10 hours a day - I would, but some people have to work instead and don't get to refine their pianism that much.   

[jsolo10]

It's interesting. To me, someone like Lang Lang is much more of a showman than Lisitsa is a show-woman. Of course, the fact that you think of Lisitsa as a show-woman doesn't mean that you don't think of Lang Lang as a showman as well -- I don't know.

What's also kind of interesting to me is that the most common criticism of her seems to be that her playing is flat and without emotion, which would seem kind of contradictory to me -- a show-woman who plays without emotion. Although I guess what you'll probably say is that the showiness is purely from the technical aspect.

I don't know. Maybe I just don't have a sophisticated enough ear, and of course this is all hugely subjective, but I've certainly become a fan.

[perfect_pitch]

What's also kind of interesting to me is that the most common criticism of her seems to be that her playing is flat and without emotion, which would seem kind of contradictory to me -- a show-woman who plays without emotion. Although I guess what you'll probably say is that the showiness is purely from the technical aspect.

I can say this though - she plays with more emotion than Lang Lang. There's a reason his nickname used to be 'Bang Bang'.

[dogperson]

Yes, it is very subjective. I don’t know if she has evolved, or if. I have;  I didn’t much care for her when she first starting playing on the concert stage, but I really enjoy her now.  How can you not admire arms and hands that move as smoothly as butter?

[ranjit]

Disclaimer: What I'm about to say is purely my own opinion.

I feel like her playing as a theme does lack musicality, although there are a few videos where I think I liked it. Her touch on the piano isn't as finely graded as many of the other pianists at that level. Quite frankly, Lang Lang, Yuja Wang and the likes can play circles around her, both musically as well as technically. Her expressions of emotion seem very "overt" to me, or lacking in nuance. That is, if you listen to her playing without paying a lot of attention, it sounds all right. But if you listen to it attentively, there is a certain lack of subtlety and charm to it. The problem with that kind of "overt" expression is that it allows for a less wide variety of emotion to come across. However, it makes the piece more instantly recognizable, in a sense. It sounds less original, and mechanical.

I do find her story interesting though. The way she plays has enough emotion and is at the same time relatable enough for a lot of people to appreciate. She has hit a sort of middle ground, and that is very interesting. Plus she's really good at marketing herself.

I do have to say though, that reading some of her racist rants lately have left me with a bitter taste.

[lostinidlewonder]

She has done well to promote her piano music and inspire others to listen to/learn piano. It is interesting how she used the internet to propogate her career becoming one of the most viewed pianists on youtube. To me overall she seems more like a "technican" on the piano, accurate notes, lacks that daring of expression we find in the golden age of piano, though this seems to be the general trend these days. Can't say much good about her politics (eg: Ukraine) and arguing on the internet (eg: being baited by that idiot who goes on about half tempo being tradition), she should perhaps take more careful responsibility for that since she has a large audience.

[ranjit]

To me overall she seems more like a "technican" on the piano, accurate notes, lacks that daring of expression we find in the golden age of piano, though this seems to be the general trend these days.

You have a point there. It's sad to see how sterilized expression has become nowadays. I can't name a single current generation pianist who manages to get the same level of depth of expression. The youngest I can think of is Zimerman. Not sure what to think of Trifonov -- though people regard him highly, I don't really see the appeal.

[klavieronin]

I can say this though - she plays with more emotion than Lang Lang. There's a reason his nickname used to be 'Bang Bang'.

I always thought the problem with Lang Lang is too much emotion. His playing always seemed so affected with little nuance or artistic restraint. That said, I have seen a couple of nice performances by him.

[perfect_pitch]

I always thought the problem with Lang Lang is too much emotion.

When have you ever seen that???

[klavieronin]

When have you ever seen that???

For example;

[volcanoadam]

Form and expression is very subjective. I love some of her recordings and I'm indifferent of others. I can't say how much she involved in the recent years because even her oldest recordings sound great to me.
Undoubtedly her technique is brilliant, effortless without any unnecessary movements (unlike the mentioned showoff Lang Lang). I love watching her hands, her technique is staggeringly beautiful. I've never seen another pianist who plays with such a grace.

The youngest I can think of is Zimerman. Not sure what to think of Trifonov -- though people regard him highly, I don't really see the appeal.

I like Zimmerman but of modern pianists my favourite is Kemal Gekic:

[perfect_pitch]

For example;

No... it looks like he took a whole bunch of Ex-Lax and he's just holding it in...

The whole over the top facial is just a farce, and a poor one at that. Either he's playing things too fast to try and heighten the excitement (which he usually fails to do and just beats the piano to pieces), or he slows down to the absolute extreme where the music just crawls (in an attempt to feign emotion).

While I'll admit his technique is brilliant, his musicality is the polar opposite.

[jsolo10]

No... it looks like he took a whole bunch of Ex-Lax and he's just holding it in...

The whole over the top facial is just a farce, and a poor one at that. Either he's playing things too fast to try and heighten the excitement (which he usually fails to do and just beats the piano to pieces), or he slows down to the absolute extreme where the music just crawls (in an attempt to feign emotion).

While I'll admit his technique is brilliant, his musicality is the polar opposite.

Right, that's kind of what I meant about him being a showman. Unlike Lisitsa, from what I perceive (and of course no one can actually get inside somebody's head to know what he/she is feeling), Lang Lang seems to be doing it for show (like "hey, everybody, look how moved I am by this music!"), as if it's something that he's SUPPOSED to be doing, more than actually feeling the music.

[lostinidlewonder]

Roger Woodward once told me something which has lasted with me for decades, "Good musicians play the music, lesser ones allow the music to play them". This can be interpreted on many levels but Lang Lang for instance allows the music to play him not him play the music, you see this in his melodramatic expressions sometimes combined with empty sounding playing. Although Lang Lang has done a HUGE amount for piano so I really don't care how he exactly plays, he has really helped piano music flourish.

[jsolo10]

That I do appreciate. I mean, when they did that "musicians perform from home" (whatever they actually called it) thing earlier this year, Lang Lang and his wife Alice Redlinger were, I believe, the only representatives from the classical world. And that's a lot better than nothing!

[klavieronin]

… Lang Lang for instance allows the music to play him not him play the music…

That's what I meant when I said he plays with too much emotion. I'm sure there is an element of showmanship in the way he plays but don't doubt that he feels the music very deeply. I just think that the feeling gets the better of him and he gets a bit carried away with it. His best performances are much more restrained than the one one I posted above.

And like you, I also appreciate how he has managed to bring a wider audience to classical music. Much like David Helfgott did once upon a time.

[jsolo10]

I do have to say though, that reading some of her racist rants lately have left me with a bitter taste.

Lately? That was like five years ago! Unless there's something new I haven't heard about.

As you said, your opinion of her is, sure enough, your opinion. Just as mine is mine. And I guess I just don't hear what you're hearing (especially in comparison to the aforementioned Lang Lang and Yuja Wang). But that's what makes this all interesting!

And as for her past political statements, well, I'm fairly rare these days in that I can separate an artist (or really a celebrity of any kind) from his/her opinions or values. So when I said up top that she's polarizing, I meant purely as an artist, although I do know that in reality it goes beyond that.

[ranjit]

And I guess I just don't hear what you're hearing (especially in comparison to the aforementioned Lang Lang and Yuja Wang). But that's what makes this all interesting!

Both Lang Lang and Yuja Wang have an incredibly sophisticated distinctive touch at the piano, which pretty much only the very top tier of pianists possess. Valentina Lisista has good "technique" as in getting the right notes at the right time, but it ends up sounding like stock music. Both Lang Lang and Yuja Wang could play like that, but they choose not to. I'm not saying that better pianists don't exist and I usually don't care much about Lang Lang's playing (though I personally think Yuja Wang is really good: listen to her first movement of Petrushka for example), but I would listen to them over Valentina. If you watch Lang Lang's masterclasses, he clearly knows his sh*t, it's not clear to me why he plays like he does though.

Edit: You might want to take a look at this if you haven't already:

[diomedes]

She's polarizing in many ways but you can't really dispute her in some ways. What a side hustle it must have been to put the concertos of rachmaninov in her repertoire at an early stage. I don't listen to her however so I don't know all that much... That graffman video looks interesting thank you.

[fftransform]

Topic asks whether Lisitsa is well-regarded among the most sophisticated listeners.

Pianists brought up: Lang Lang, Yuja Wang.

Yeah dude, you aren't talking with the sophistos haha  Lemme tell you, most serious listeners I know consider her to only be a more matured version of youtube pianist 'Rousseau.'  It's soulless gunk for beginner listeners to get into classical music.  Very fast and clean, just like a midi but with tits!  Ok, that's a bit unfair, she doesn't still flaunt herself like she did when she started off.  But that's what her chauvinist, gay-murdering buddy Putin would say about her

[dogperson]

Topic asks whether Lisitsa is well-regarded among the most sophisticated listeners.

Pianists brought up: Lang Lang, Yuja Wang.

Yeah dude, you aren't talking with the sophistos haha  Lemme tell you, most serious listeners I know consider her to only be a more matured version of youtube pianist 'Rousseau.'  It's soulless gunk for beginner listeners to get into classical music.  Very fast and clean, just like a midi but with tits!  Ok, that's a bit unfair, she doesn't still flaunt herself like she did when she started off.  But that's what her chauvinist, gay-murdering buddy Putin would say about her

No, the original question did not ask if we see ourselves as sophisticated prior to giving an opinion.  Good to know you seem to put everyone who is not negative about her in the unsophisticated bucket.

The original post also did not ask that we include an assessment of her politics when providing  a response- just her playing.

[lostinidlewonder]

..the original question did not ask if we see ourselves as sophisticated prior to giving an opinion....also did not ask that we include an assessment of her politics when providing  a response- just her playing.

We can add extra information we feel inspired to write about that doesn't specifically answer only the questions in the OP. I think politics play an important role in how one is looked at, or listened to. I certainly saw Wagner in a different light.

[taoo]

She is my favorite classical pianist. And there are a lot of elite attitudes here. Like She is most for beginners.  But I prefer her straight forward plays to all other styles.

[ahinton]

Topic asks whether Lisitsa is well-regarded among the most sophisticated listeners.

Pianists brought up: Lang Lang, Yuja Wang.

Yeah dude, you aren't talking with the sophistos haha  Lemme tell you, most serious listeners I know consider her to only be a more matured version of youtube pianist 'Rousseau.'  It's soulless gunk for beginner listeners to get into classical music.  Very fast and clean, just like a midi but with tits!  Ok, that's a bit unfair, she doesn't still flaunt herself like she did when she started off.  But that's what her chauvinist, gay-murdering buddy Putin would say about her

I wouldn't go that far - and I'm keeping out of the political side of things, not least because that's not in the OP, - but I find her playing efficient but dishearteningly uninspiring and, at worst, rather dull. As something of a seasoned ambassador for Bösendorfer pianos, she at least doesn't just accept whatever Model D's thrown at her unquestioningly. However, in the end, I find her playing to be disappointingly ordinary and unmemorable as a rule.

Lang Lang has a well honed facility but acts before the instrument as a most distracting exhibitionist when all that requires exhibiting is the music. His playing is rarely as unexciting as Lisitsa's can sometimes be but there are plenty of finer players around today.

Yuja Wang is, I think, on another level altogether. Yes, she wears almost comically absurd concert attire, in particular the ridiculous shoes that must be about as unconducive to effective pedalling (especially in passages where all three pedals are used) as it is possible for footwear to be and which look designed for the sole purpose of walking her straight to the osteopath's office. She has a considerable facility - greater, I'd say, than those of VL or LL - and I believe her to be a better endowed musicians than either of them but, again, I would not put her in the top class of current pianists. Her appearance when performing is sufficient of a distraction (rather like LL's) as to warrant keeping one's eyes shut the while. I heard (but didn't see) her playing the three Brahms sonatas for violin and piano with Leonidas Kavakos and her performances were models of sensitivity and restraint.

If ever I encounter any of the three of them playing Szymanowski or Medtner, let alone Messiaen, Boulez, Stockhausen or Finnissy, I will appropriately fall off my chair...

Anyway, that's my two cents' worth, FWIW.

Best,

Alistair

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Valentina is only good at playing Liszt

Lang Lang and Yuja are both fantastic.  Lang Lang just knows the audience he’s playing for.  If he’s playing for a bunch of non classical listeners he’s super showy but if he’s playing for an educated audience he’s actually pretty good.  Yuja Wang is mostly great but never practices that’s all.

[visitor]

I really like her playing of and the fact she went out to record modern well done versions of the old movie concertos ie Baths Cornish Rhapsody etc

I am not rally a fan of hers but do enjoy individual recordings of hers and she has a good fundamental and sound physical approach to playing, even if her interpretation of some std literature is a little conservative for my overall taste

[pianopuff]

Great skill for the most part, tends to play super fast for no real good reason. Her Hungarian Rhapsody 2 is a bit of a train wreck but maybe she had a bad day?

[ranjit]

If ever I encounter any of the three of them playing Szymanowski or Medtner, let alone Messiaen, Boulez, Stockhausen or Finnissy, I will appropriately fall off my chair...

I heard someone spoke to Yuja Wang and she said that she liked Medtner a lot. It was in a youtube comment somewhere.

I haven't listened to Finissy, but I hear he wrote country music.

[ahinton]

I heard someone spoke to Yuja Wang and she said that she liked Medtner a lot. It was in a youtube comment somewhere.

Good - well, let's see if she turns that appreciation into performances!

I haven't listened to Finissy, but I hear he wrote country music.

!!!

[lostinidlewonder]

If ever I encounter any of the three of them playing Szymanowski or Medtner, let alone Messiaen, Boulez, Stockhausen or Finnissy, I will appropriately fall off my chair...

You've gotta be wary of falls.

[ranjit]

I haven't listened to Finissy, but I hear he wrote country music.

Does that make him like Bartok?

[thalbergmad]

She bores me so much I would almost prefer listening to Hamelin.
When the looks fade, she will have precious little to offer.

Thal

[achoo42]

She is not consistent, most of her playing is dull although there is an occasional good performance. There are much better pianists out there with a much larger repertoire.

[nw746]

I do not know her playing very well, but I have enjoyed all the volumes of her Beethoven piano sonatas released to date. The character of her playing suits that of Beethoven's music. She doesn't have the technical control of a Yuja Wang or Hisako Kawamura or Steven Osborne, but then nor did Friedrich Gulda or Alfred Brendel, the artists she most closely resembles from an aesthetic perspective. The energy and freshness and attention to detail already makes her cycle superior to those by e.g. Barenboim or Kempff or Ashkenazy. The main deficiency of her playing (& that will most likely keep her cycle from joining the "great" ones) is that it is small-scale; she doesn't bring out the long phrases, on the 16- or 32-bar level, and how they flow into one another. Her phrasing is choppy. At times this doesn't matter too much, e.g. her tempo in the first movement of the D major sonata Op. 10 no. 3 is fast enough (minim = ~158-162, which is more or less correct) that entire sections can be played as more or less one long phrase without needing to bring up distinctions between them. At other times this is a bigger problem, e.g. in the slow movement of the same sonata phrases feel disconnected from one another, and there is not enough coherence to hold a listener's attention (me being the listener), or to maintain the shape of a broad dramatic "wave" building inexorably to a crest in bar 72 and then breaking.

(It might be helpful to compare Lisitsa's performance of Op. 10 no. 3 to the greatest one I know of on record, which is Martha Argerich's from her set of early recordings on Deutsche Grammophon, to get a better idea of her strengths and weaknesses. Argerich plays the Presto at around minim = 152, which for Beethoven was more of an "Allegro molto" than a "Presto", but in all other respects shapes the first movement much better with respect to phrasing. In the slow movement there is obviously no comparison.)

I would overall therefore consider Lisitsa about as good (in Beethoven, anyway) as Gulda or Brendel, or Yusuke Kikuchi, Stewart Goodyear, or Michael Korstick. IOW, part of a large group of technically and artistically proficient pianists whose playing can successfully convey the intentions of the composer, if not actually realise those intentions. There are pianists who can completely realise a composer's intentions, and there are pianists who can go beyond the composer's intentions altogether and present their own equally valid interpretations; Lisitsa doesn't fall into either of these categories. But I think she's significantly better than average.

[lelle]

I have met and talked to Lisitsa and she was very nice and kind. It is clear she has a love for music, and to my surprise she is a big fan of "Golden Age" pianists such as Backhaus, and if I recall correctly she prefer that style of playing to modern recordings. Her interpretations are generally not to my taste, but she has her style and knows her craft very well and I respect her for that.

EDIT

Yuja Wang is mostly great but never practices that’s all.

Source on the never practises part? Last time I heard her she played very cleanly.

[rkd201177]

What I can 100% say is there are some frankly uneducated and wrong thoughts. Lang Lang is NOT technically better than Lisitsa. His technical ability is average, his performance of Rach 3 illustrates this perfectly. Both Valentina and Yuja are in a different universe to Lang Lang. Also someone suggested that Valentina plays more conventional repertoire, again completely untrue. In terms of ability compare Wang and Lisitsa both playing the Hammerklavier (Beethoven). Many pianists do not even attempt this. Lisitsa is more melodic and lyrical. Wang more obviously virtuosic but there is nothing really to pick between these two geniuses. But please do not compare Lang Lang to either. He’s the Skoda where the two ladies are Ferraris

[transitional]

I don't like when people argue about pianists. Everyone has their own tastes, that's all. For me, all the best pianists are ones who record 100% live recordings with a muffled background noise and that's just me!

[amc252]

So, can we agree that nobody agrees whether Valentina (or any other pianist for that matter) is good or not?

[pianopro181]

Lisitsa is a technician through and through. There is so much lacking in her playing musically where oftentimes I find it unbearable to listen to. She also plays everything way too fast where it loses meaning like in Rach 3. Lang Lang on the other hand has way more musicianship and thorough understanding of different styles (I give him as an example as he’s been mentioned). Yes, he’s a showman and sometimes does ridiculous things with the music and pulls ridiculous faces, but he’s a superb pianist and gives a lot of feeling and authenticity to the music he plays. I actually prefer him to Yuja. His Prok 3 for example is fantastic. I’ll admit I don’t like his Bach though like at all. He’s very good at romantic music that’s really his forte. A lot of innovative ideas whether you agree with any of it or not it’s admirable.

[liszt-and-the-galops]

So, can we agree that nobody agrees whether Valentina (or any other pianist for that matter) is good or not?

I think we can, with the exception of Liszt.