COUNTDOWN TO best Grands

[amy]

okay guys.... this is a hot topic.. and i need to know...of course.. everyone has their own opinions... but we'll see if we can get a collaborative...almost "close-enough" countdown of the best grands from best to least....     now.. im just guessing... so post your opinons for top 6. (best to least)

6.  steinway?!
5.  Petrof ?
4. yamaha
3. baldwin
2.  samick
1. kawai?

im just guessing here... of course, i dont know the rare ones... thanks

[Bosendorfer_214]

Amy-

In my opinion, best to worst.
These are the top pianos.

1. Bosendorfer
2. Bluthner
3. Bechstein
4. Hamburg Steinway
5. 1920's Mason Hamlin
6. Schimmel
7. Steinway NY

These are great pianos
8. Petrof
9. Yamaha
10. kawai
11. Most of the rest of the Asian Pianos

i would stay away from the Samicks though.

Happy Hunting,
Nic

[amy]

hey there!!!.. thanks for replying...  here's the thing... are those other pianos all of german /european descent??   and.. isnt Bechstein just the maker of Zimmermann pianos?... or is there the seperate brand?

whats the diff. between steinway NY, and Hamburg Steinway??  1920's Mason Hamlin... do they make new ones?

why stay away from samick?? (korean)

thanks

[dinosaurtales]

You didn't mention a price range, so here's my list, based on 7-footers that I played in my search:

Fazioli (what I ended up with - like a Ferrari)
Grotrian (Close second - the Dodge Viper of pianos - lotsa power! - fun!)
Bluthner ( Fabulous deep, dark sound - made for Beethoven! - lovely!)
August Forster (way cheaper than the others above - but they put their money into the right places - you oughta try one)
Steinway ( gotta play lots of them to find a good one, but when you do - oh boy!)
Mason & Hamlin (a bit of a beast, but getting better and better all the time. They'll knock your socks off in 5 years' time!)
Bosendorfer ( beautiful piano. Felt great - Looks good - not really consistent throughout the keyboard for sound)

Mindy

[rachfan]

I like the solid American piano sound featuring the overtones of the strings rather than the fundamentals.  So for me it's:

1. Baldwin
2. NY Steinway
3. Mason & Hamlin

If you can find a Falcone (originally built in Haverhill, MA but no longer made) from the 1980s, those can also be fabulous instruments.

I'm not high on any of the Asian brands.

[TwinkleFingers]

Pearl River Pianos.  Have you tried these at all.  They are made in china and have a great sound to them.  Im having second thoughts on the one I put money down on though because of its size 4'7" but I can upgrade down the line and give me the full purchase price on it.  Im thinking I should of went with a 5'5" or 6' given the big difference in bass and tone.

[eddie92099]

1. Fazioli
2. Steinway
3. Bosendorfer

Outside of these stick with Yamaha or you are wasting your time,
Ed

[jnlje]

From Best to Worst

1.Steinway
2.Bosendorfer
3.Fazioli
4.Kawai
5.Pertof

[G.Fiore]

:)In the 9 ft concert grands,top to bottom it's Bechstein,Fazioli ,Bosendorfer,Bluthner,Grotrian,Baldwin,Hamburg Steinway.If you really want to play a piano that will blow you away,the best kept secret is the Steingraber model 275.Three have been made.They are taking orders now for late 2003-2004 deliveries,but you must make a hefty deposit.Try their 6'9" grand,the renn :-*er action is dynamically balanced,and is a dream in terms of tonal control and repetition.

[dinosaurtales]

What's all this I hear about a Stengraeber 275?!!  What is that - 9 feet?  I'd give anything to play that one!  I played a 6'9" when I was shopping and it was one of the best I played!  I wanted a bigger piano, or I would have bought the thing!  Faboulous piano if they make a nine footer!  Great news!

[allchopin]

What are the average prices we are talking about for these Bechstein's, Fazioli's, and Grotrian whatnot?...

[Bosendorfer_214]

$50,000-$100,000+ US dollars.

[Axtremus]

I'll try to restrict my list to the {5'6" to 7'6"} range, from those I like the most to those I like less and less. Multiple models occupy the same rank if they are "close enough" that I cannot really say one is definitely better than the other(s):

1. {Fazioli F228} This is a class by itself.
2. {Steinway B, Kawai RX-A, Shigeru SK-6}
3. {Mason and Hamlin BB, Fazioli F212, Shigeru SK-5,  AugustForester 190, some Bosendorfers, Yamaha S6}
4. {Pleyel 190, Estonia 190, some C.Bechstein, a Baldwin SF-10}
5. {Steinway M, Yamaha C5/C6, Kawai RX-5, Estonia 170, Pleyel 170, some other C.Bechstein, Yamaha C7, Shigeru SK-3, MasonHamlin A}
6. {Petrof II, some other Bosendorfers, some of the bigger Schimmels}
7. {Petrof III, Schimmel-VOGEL, yet some other Bosendorfers}
8. {Some other Schimmels, Petrof IV, Yamaha C3}
9. {Grotrian 6'3", yet some other Schimmels, the larger Knabes and YoungChangs/Prambergers, Kawai RX-2/RX-3}
10. {Yamaha C2, smaller Knabes, smaller YoungChangs/Prambergers, Schulze Pollmans, Samicks}

Bosendorfers, Schimmels, and Young Changs float all over the place because, well, I don't remember the exact lengths of the models I played -- I just have the impression that there are some Bosendorfers/Schimmels/YoungChangs models that appealed to me more than the other models from the same manufacturers, or just different instruments of the same model. They just span over a wide range of quality and tone colors, some I like, some I don't. (I could say the same for a lot of Steinways I came across lately, but in the above ranking I used the Model M and B I like the most.)

[pianomanrsn]

Ok,

Here's my list for larger grands (6'9" and up)

1. Bluthner (best all around - expensive)
2. Fazioli (beautiful and expensive)
3. Steingraber (expensive & rare only two 275s existant)
4. Grotrian (growly bass to die for)
5. Bosendorfer (beautifully crafted: not everyone's taste)
6. Steinway - Hamburg (excellent all around)
7. Mason & Hamlin (wonderful pianos)
8. Bechstein (a lot like Bosendorfer to my ear)
9. August Forster (best value in a grand)
10. Ibach (often overlooked, but fine pianos)
11. Borgato (very rare, but the big grands are something)
12. S. Kawai (quantum leap over the RX series)
13. Yamaha S series (similar to S. Kawai)
14. Steinway - New York (quality control problems)
15. Feurich (often confused with non German brand)
16. Stuart & Sons (custom and rare)
17. Kawai RX and EX series (best production piano)
18. Yamaha (love em or hate em)
19. The rest - Baldwin, Petrof, Pleyel, Saunter, Schimmel, Seiler, Estonia, Young Chang, etc.

Robert in Dallas

[Noah]

1. Bosendorfer
2. Steinway Hamburg
3. Bechstein

Never played a Fazioli though   :-/

[G.Fiore]

:)I note that very few have mentioned the Baldwin SF-10 and SD-10 7 ft & 9 ft grands.These are also top tier pianos.Like NY Steinway,when well prepped they can certainly hold their own against Steinway and other european makes.The SF-10 is also one of the best 7 ft scales ever designed,and surpases the Mason & Hamlin in regards to even tone across the scale,especially at the tenor /treble break.Try them,and you'll know what a really well scaled piano sounds like.

[dinosaurtales]

George - that's probably because those suckers are hard to find.  I shopped high-end pianos for a year and a half from the Portland Oregon area, and never ran across one.  There's even a (suppposedly) Baldwin dealer in town!  

[Hmoll]

George - that's probably because those suckers are hard to find.  I shopped high-end pianos for a year and a half from the Portland Oregon area, and never ran across one.  There's even a (suppposedly) Baldwin dealer in town!  

It's been a few years since I've played a Baldwin Grand, but I have yet to like one that I've played. However, I've played some Baldwin uprights that I like. Also, the Baldwins built pre-Gibson are said to be better.

Having said that, some people really like the Baldwin sound.

[ASBpiano]

Ok well i'll try to be as un-biased as possible... I'm having a 1929 Mason & Hamlin model A rebuilt and am completely in love!  

Today i went to another store and played a just redone M&H model A of the same year, it was completely incredible, better than the Steinways, Yamahas, etc. in the store.  I also went to another place with Fazioli's, Bosendorfers, and Schimells.  So my list of top grands is....  I'll compare how Liszts "Un Sospiro" feels on each one as it uses the whole keyboard and tests dynamic range very well.

1. Fazioli -  Truly amazing pianos.  The bass is the grandest i've played/heard.  The only downside, IMO, is the una corda.  It was nearly impossible to play the beginning broken chords of Un Sospiro.  However, this was a new Fazioli so maybe that had something to do with it...
2. Bosendorfer - Great control.  I couldn't get as much forte as i would have liked but Liszt came out very fluidly.  
3. Mason & Hamlin - I just recently discovered them but they are truly awesome.  The dynamic range is great and it has a beautiful, sweet sound and one of the best actions i've played on.  They are one of the (if not THE) heaviest pianos available.  You may see this as a downside but it is because of the thickness and quality of the wood used.  Just to give you an idea, the model A (5' 8.5") weighs 860 lbs while the Steinway L (5' 10" i believe) is in the 600's.  
4.  Steinway - I'm sure most of you have played on one.  Beautiful sound, action is great.

Don't really have a fifth.  I'm sure it would most likely be  Bechstein or something along those lines but i haven't played on one since i was 8 (i'm 13 now) and i can't really remember...  

[rachfan]

Hi G. Fiore,

I agree with you on your Baldwin assessment.  I have a Model L (6'3") at home; but if I could fit an SF10 (7') into my living room, it would already be here!  It's an astounding piano, and totally even across the scale design as you mentioned.  The SF10 (9') is the Baldwin flagship piano, of course, and they lavish a lot on it--and it sounds it too!  I've chatted with Steinway fanatics who readily admit that the SD10 has an amazing sound that can sometimes surpass Steinway's D.  As I mentioned above, I much prefer the American sound to the European (not everybody does, and I understand that), and I like it far more than what you get from the Asian pianos, and for me, among the American choices, Baldwin is it.  

[G.Fiore]

:)Hi Rachfan, it's me G.Fiore (Curry),remember I would know,I have a 2000 SF-10.If you ever get down to NJ,come and play her.

[dinosaurtales]

that sounded .. uh.... suggestive.  He's married, ya know.

[rachfan]

Hey Dino,

It's OK, "she's" the SF10.  But thanks for looking out for my reputation!  By the way, I had left you that commentary on the Scriabin Etude.  Don't know if you ever saw it as I posted it awhile after you had been there and asked your question.

Curry,

That's what happens when you have two names, one for Piano Forum and another for Piano World.   You had me fooled preaching to the choir.  Talk about being faked out.  Do you still watch TV from underneath the SF10?  

[G.Fiore]

Hey Rach,being a teacher and a Tech has it's benefits.Having all summer off,the old lady and I re-arranged the living,putting the SF along the far wall.Now we can sit on the couch to watch TV.I now also note that we also have room for an SD.Shall I ask Barb? :)I think if I did,I would incur much pain to my body.Such are" The Days of Our Lives".

[rachfan]

Hey Curry,

That's good that you're now back on the sofa rather than under the SF.  On the SD though, it's an exciting thought, but I wouldn't press my luck with the little lady.  The way to rationalize not doing it: Convince yourself that the SD will be too powerful in the home setting even with the lid closed.  That kind of self denial will be better than no longer having peace under the teepee--or under the SD, actually, as that would have to be your new base of operations there for most living room activities.   Gosh, it is tempting though, eh?  

[dinosaurtales]

This little discussion you two are having really makes me realize why most folks get 5 and 6 footers for *home* use, and the 7 and 9's are for *concert* use.  Mine is a 7 footer - I was *this close* to getting a slightly bigger one, and as tempting as it still is, the7 footer blows the ceilings off this place.  I still think about the 7 1/2 footer, and wonder what mods I could make to the house to accomodate?

hm.

Mindy

[rachfan]

Mindy,

You know what my dream has always been (yeah, yeah, keep dreaming)?  To have a house, but land large enough to also accommodate a recital hall.  It would have a stage with the Baldwin SF10, and seating for 150 or so.  Would include a shallow balcony in the rear with 1 or 2 rows of seats, and  arched windows along the sides.  Oh, and maybe a couple of boxes down front near the stage.  The object wouldn't be to recitalize there, just to practice and perform for my own enjoyment.  Ah, the piano would sound so spectacular in such a setting.  In a way, this would be the ultimate "home theatre".   A pretty expensive amusement, don't you think?

Dave

[Bosendorfer_214]

Mine is also a 7 footer and I was torn between it and the prospect of a Steinway D but I couldn't find a D that I liked.  Oh well... I like my Bosie.

Nic

[dinosaurtales]

Whew!  RachFan you DO think big!  My *fantasy* runs along similar line, just not nearly as grandiose.  our house does have a big empty space in back (when the piano is paid for, I may contemplate this seriously), that could accomodate a pretty large extra room.  Probably separate from the house, and could be just about any dimension - not large enough to seat 150, but 20 or 30, and have *balcony* seating -the box idea really appeals to me, now that you mention it!  I was thinking more along the lines of chamber music concerts for friends there, and the ocassional recital.  In the meantime, I will stick with where the piano currently is- the designer drew the house we built with a small side room that sort of looks like a little stage.  I just think he didnb't comprehend how big a piano I wanted.  He was probably using a baby grand as a model fo the room.  But I fantasize about the big room.

I have thought about painting a trompe loe (sp?) on the wall of a concert audience, sort of like Rupert Pupkin in King of Comedy.  Is this twisted, or what?

[Axtremus]

... To have a house, but land large enough to also accommodate a recital hall.  It would have a stage with the Baldwin SF10, and seating for 150 or so ...  

Gee... I have a very similar dream myself -- except I want to put an SD-10 or a Fazioli F-228 (or bigger) in there. I don't care much for the balcony, but would like an orchestra area (or just an orchestra pit) just in case I want to pick up a concerto one day.   Oh yeah, I have a friend with whom I'd like to play duet with, so make it an SD-10 AND a big-a** Fazioli so we can play some two-piano repertiore (like Rachmaninoff's suites for two pianos) instead of just four-hand music.  

[dinosaurtales]

uh oh.  This is starting to turn into a Piano Fantasy post

[rachfan]

I'm glad my piano fantasy wasn't too far fetched, as others have added their own here.  It struck a "responsive chord".  Mindy, that trompe de ... well trick of the eye style painting, just gave me an idea.  I like your suggestion about painting the audience.  In my scheme, I could use that same effect to create a total decor for the recital hall.  I think Rococo would be the way to go.  There could be arches, lunettes, a fancy procenium over the stage, murals in the manner of the painter Watteau, gold leaf for the balcony, boxes, procenium and molded ceiling, velvet draperies, etc.  I can picture it now!  Plus, I'll add a green room for back stage.

[dinosaurtales]

RachFan - incredible thinking.    geez.  If you haven't seen the King of Comedy with Robert deNiro, you've gotta.  There's onlyb one little scene in it where he shows his *room* but it's every performers' little fantasy room -

So do you do the lights, too?

[rachfan]

Hi Mindy,

Yes, I'll watch for the DeNiro flick.  Thanks.

Ah, the lights.  Thinking about that now, and the new Rococo decor, the ligthting will need to be more innovative, and I have just the thing.  First, I'll scrap the arched windows along the side walls and substitute on both walls two fake boxes in the middle and toward the balcony to match the real boxes down front, except the fake ones will be smaller.  Behind the fake boxes in the wall will be arches, and within the arches will be those Watteau-like murals I mentioned.  Now, the ingenuity: In the floor of the fake boxes will be wash lighting aimed to illuminate the murals and to also bounce lighting up at the ceiling as well.  Next, with the Rococo style, they'll have to be a crystal chandelier in the center of the ceiling.  To each side of the two real boxes, there'll be wall-mounted lighting fixtures in a style to exactly compliment the chandelier.  And under the balcony will be some recessed lighting there to disipate any shaddow in that area.  So with a flick of a switch, lighting should be ample.  Stage lighting, hidden away above the proscenium, can be utilitarian and specifically designed to get the job done.

So, what do you think?

[eddie92099]

I think you have too much time on your hands...
Ed

[dinosaurtales]

You're not married, are you, ed?

[eddie92099]

Not last time I checked...I am only 17 though!
Ed

[dinosaurtales]

well, if you ever do, you'll start indulging in goofy fantasies like this, too.  

trust me on this.  I know.

[rachfan]

I agree.  And with life being ever so serious, it's fun to goof around once in a while.

[eddie92099]

I put my fantasy in the fantasy thread, I just didn't get on to lighting particulars  ,
Ed

[rachfan]

Hey eddie,

Don't despair.  I left the lighting details for you on the other thread.  

[eddie92099]

Terribly kind of you,
Ed

[sram]

gee.. the Baldwin SD10... i remember an LP of Ilana Vered playing the Chopin Etudes on an SD10. The sound was fabulous.
but i never had the chance to try one myself.

i have played on both NY and Hamburg Steinways, one Fazioli ( the 7 ft one i played on wasn't very hot), Bosendorfers (Imperial and 7ft) , Mason and Hamlins and i own a 7' 7" Bluthner ( built circa 1989).
So much depends on their state and maintenance.Wonderful technicians can do wonders indeed.

[rachfan]

Hi Sram,

I recently bought CDs of older Nonesuch recordings of Ruth Laredo playing Scriabin etudes and sonatas on the Baldwin SD10.  The sound knocks me out.  Fabulous!  That piano is very hard to beat.  Even some Steinway D enthusiasts have come away totally impressed by the SD10.

Check out Axtremus' interesting observations on the SD10 in his Sept. 7th post on this same Instruments Board.

[eddie92099]

I wonder where I can find an SD10 to play in London. Any suggestions?
Ed

[rachfan]

eddie, your best bet might be to go onto www.baldwinpiano.com and click on the dealers button in the navigation bar.  There is a very short form to fill out there to find the nearest dealer.  I don't know whether Baldwin activily markets their pianos in the UK or not.  It would be worth a look.

[eddie92099]

Thanks a lot, I'll do that,
Ed

[classicarts]

Amy, your list is terrible and it's not even close to the actual top 6 pianos out in the market.  You need to obtain more knowledge before you post anything on here.

[piazzo23]

.

[joyfulmusic]

well well classicarts, I guess you are superior to Amy... NOT.  Any sentence that begins with 'You need to"... Give me a break.  Get over yourself.