Bosendorfer vs Steinway

[cognoscentus]

I'm curious what people think about Bosendorfer vs Steinway lines in the smaller pianos.  I'm thinking of say the Bosendorfer 170 vs the Steinway M.  I tend to play more 'delicate' music like Ravel and Debussy.  I'd appreciate peoples opinions on this.

2nd question - how does the 170 compare to the M in price?

3rd quesiton - does anyone know who the authorized Bosie dealers are in NYC?  I know I visited an authorized dealer about a year ago but for the life of me I can't remember who it was!

Cheers!

[Michele Felice]

It sounds like you have a large budget for a piano and thus have a great amount of choice in pianos. New Bosendorfer 170s list in the area of $100K. New Steinway Ms list in the area of $45K. Although I have no idea of the discounts available on Bosendorfers in NYC, high-priced pianos (except for Steinways) are in general, more heavily-discounted than less-expensive ones. You might get a 25% discount on a high-end piano, from its "asking" price. Whatever the potential discount, you will have to find a piano you like and then make an offer you are willing to pay. The dealer can accept your price or give you a price he can accept. There certainly should be no shame in offering a dealer 30 or 40% under the asking price.

If you are favorably disposed towards Steinway Ms, you really should go out and try other high-priced makes. The M is, at best, a piano of only middling quality. If you are able to spend $100K for an instrument, or even $70K, you should investigate all the high-end pianos that come in smaller sizes. I would include, perhaps especially, Fazioli (which some people consider to be the most meticulously-crafted of all pianos) and Grotrian. There are lots of good piano dealers in NYC and you should have no trouble finding a delightful instrument. There is a Bosendorfer specialist with a good showroom, which you can find in your telephone book or online. Buona fortuna.

[G.Fiore]

 Gerhard Feldman on Lexintgon Ave is a Bösendorfer dealer. The 170 lists at $80,000, but prices have recently gone up so it couild be a bit more.
 I would get a model 185 6'2" if it were me. It has a lot more bass for the money, listing at $85,000.
 Most dealers will discount a Bösendorfer by no more than 25%, unless they have to move it qiuckly.
 I recently purchased a Bösendorfer model 214  7 footer. It lists at $107,000, I got about a 22% discount off list price.
 Try Cunningham Piano Factory in Philadelphia, they are an authorized dealer for Bösendorfer and are great to work with.

[Hmoll]

What other pianos have you played? You owe it to yourself to play a larger universe of makes/models - Grotrian, Fazioli, Bluthner, Pleyel, Petrof, Estonia, Bechstein, etc.

[Axtremus]

What other pianos have you played? You owe it to yourself to play a larger universe of makes/models - Grotrian, Fazioli, Bluthner, Pleyel, Petrof, Estonia, Bechstein, etc.

Ah... I see that the Asians and the Americans got left out, again!  

For completeness, add Yamaha, Kawai/Shigeru, Young Chang/Pramberger, Samick/Knabe, Baldwin, Pearl River/Ritmuller, Story and Clark/Nordiska/Hallet Davis, Bohemia, August Foerster, Mason and Hamlin, Boston, Steinberg, etc. For the price of a new 5.5ft Steinway or Boesendorfer, you can get big 7' to 9' concert grands from these other brands (and some times even two or three big pianos from some of these other brands for the same money).

Though as a matter of personal taste, I think I like "delicate music like Ravel and Debussy" on Boesendorfers eventhough I am not a Boesendorfer fan in general. I also think that that type of music would work well on August Foersters. Seeing that the August Foersters will be MUCH MUCH CHEAPER than either Boesendorfer, do consider checking out the August Foersters. If you're shopping in the New York area, just hop over to Elizabeth or Lawrenceville in New Jersey to check out the Foerster dealer there.

FWIW, I think the Boesendorfer will work just fine, and for my understanding of "delicate music like Ravel and Debussy," I also like Boesies better for this kind of music.

Good luck.

[Motrax]

Get a Steingraeber if you have that kind of money! www.steingraeber.de is their website. They make very few pianos each year (60-120 I think?) so prices are rather steep even for smaller-sized grands (75,000 for a 6'9").

For some more information click these links (I describe Steingraebers in a bit more detail)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,6375.msg63492.html#msg63492

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4527.msg43099.html#msg43099

Good luck!

[cognoscentus]

Thanks for all the responses. 

Re Fazioli, I did try a couple the other day.  Great pianos, but too bright for my taste.   

Re Pleyel -I used to play an old one (1920s) and loved it.  I tried a couple of new ones, and found the tone and touch to be agreeable.  I'm a bit concerned about the quality - from what I understand the brand was just resurrected so the company in its current form doesnt seem to have much of a track record.  Also, they're hard to find here.  They just switched authorized dealers here in NYC and the new guy only has one on display.

I haven't loved the Petrofs or Estonias I've played.  (my piano tuner is in love with the Petrofs - says they're the best value for the money out there).

I have to admit, I've not tried the Grotrian or the Foerster.  From what I've read, the Foerster in particular sounds like it should be right up my alley.  I'll give it a whirl, once I locate a dealer.  I could end up saving 30k.

Thanks again for all the input.

- Jonny

[iumonito]

I am with Motrax on this one.  Steingraeber 205 can do everything sweet you like in the Bose, much easier, much clearer and for entirely comparable price.

Add to the list Irmler, made by Bluthner in Poland.  That's what I got and am very pleased.  It owes nothing to a Steinway B (although it seems that is not the line that sells to you).

For yet another option, try a Seiler 208.  Much better than Grotrian or August Forster

[cognoscentus]

Thanks for the continuing input -

anyone know who the dealers are in the NYC area for:  Bluthner, Forster, and Steingraeber?

[G.Fiore]

 Jon,  the only east coast representative for Steingraeber is Keith Kerman at Pianocraft in Gaithersburg, Maryland. For A.Forster go to Elizabeth, NJ to Altenburg Piano House

[Axtremus]

Allegro Pianos in Stamford, Connecticut is picking up the Blüthner line and said to be expecting new Blüthner pianos soon (should be about a half-hour drive from Whitestone bridge). And with that, I'll also guess that Faust-Harrison Pianos on West 58th Street in NYC will soon also carry Blüthner. Good luck.

[CJ Quinn]

Johnny:

Check out Grotrians at Beethovens on 58 street.  Someone just told me they have a used Bosie >200cm there as well.

The Bosie NY store is awesome too, I got weak in the knees when I went in there in December.

[keith d kerman]

Johnny,

IMO, a good Steinway is preferable to most Boses in Debussy and Ravel, including, but not limited to the most delicate moments.  I would look at the model O, A, and if you have room, the B, over an M.

[CJ Quinn]

Johnny,

IMO, a good Steinway is preferable to most Boses in Debussy and Ravel, including, but not limited to the most delicate moments.  I would look at the model O, A, and if you have room, the B, over an M.

Keith:

You don't like Ls?

[keith d kerman]

CJQ,

Ls are fine.  I like Ms better than Ls, believe it or not.  And I think the O can be really beautiful, and I like it much more than an L.

[xvimbi]

Johnny,

IMO, a good Steinway is preferable to most Boses in Debussy and Ravel, including, but not limited to the most delicate moments.  I would look at the model O, A, and if you have room, the B, over an M.

Interesting. By far most of the people I have had such conversations with hands down prefer the Boesendorfers over the Steinways for exactly this type of music (i.e. delicate, rather than over-powering).

[cognoscentus]

Johnny:

Check out Grotrians at Beethovens on 58 street.  Someone just told me they have a used Bosie >200cm there as well.

The Bosie NY store is awesome too, I got weak in the knees when I went in there in December.

I played the Grotrian and the 1979 Bosendorfer 214 at Beethovens just the other day.  Beautiful instruments, both.  Also, I had a similar reaction at BosendorferNY.  It was the first time I played an Imperial.  They are something else.

[CJ Quinn]

CJQ,

Ls are fine.  I like Ms better than Ls, believe it or not.  And I think the O can be really beautiful, and I like it much more than an L.

You're a mysterious man, Kerman.  Are you the only guy on the planet who likes Ms better than Ls or do you just have an M you're trying to sell me 

Aren't Os and Ls very similar?

[cognoscentus]

Johnny,

IMO, a good Steinway is preferable to most Boses in Debussy and Ravel, including, but not limited to the most delicate moments.  I would look at the model O, A, and if you have room, the B, over an M.

Keith - I grew up playing a Steinway, they are definitely great instruments.  All in all, though, I prefer the touch and tone of a Bosendorfer, they seem more subtle, more capable.  Of course, I realize its a matter of taste.

[CJ Quinn]

I played the Grotrian and the 1979 Bosendorfer 214 at Beethovens just the other day.  Beautiful instruments, both.  Also, I had a similar reaction at BosendorferNY.  It was the first time I played an Imperial.  They are something else.

Do you remember the approx price of the Bosie?

Others have mentioned Altenburg in NJ, I bought my Foerster there and became pals with Fred Altenburg as a result, a very decent guy.  Definitely worth the trip to Elizabeth as he'll have multiple AF170s and 190s out on the floor for testing.  Call ahead and talk to Fred himself, as some of his sales staff may be a bit off-putting and Fred can give you the best deal.

[cognoscentus]

Do you remember the approx price of the Bosie?

He had it listed at 55k. 

I'll make my way down to Freds, as long as I don't get sucked up by one of those oil refineries while trying to find the store.

[CJ Quinn]

He had it listed at 55k. 

I'll make my way down to Freds, as long as I don't get sucked up by one of those oil refineries while trying to find the store.

It's not that bad if you bring your own air supply 

If you're near Brooklyn's Prospect park, you're welcome to stop by and play my AF190 as long as you promiss that you're not an axe murderer, and that you won't play Mozart.  I have recordings of my piano on my website also.

[Axtremus]

CJ Quinn, is that really you?
Keith D Kerman, et tu?

I grew up playing a Steinway, they are definitely great instruments.  All in all, though, I prefer the touch and tone of a Bosendorfer, they seem more subtle, more capable.  Of course, I realize its a matter of taste.

As a matter of taste, I can go along with the "more subtle" part, but have reservation with the "more capable" part.

[keith d kerman]

You're a mysterious man, Kerman.  Are you the only guy on the planet who likes Ms better than Ls or do you just have an M you're trying to sell me 

Aren't Os and Ls very similar?

No Ms for you Chris, only an Estonia 168 with your name on it.  Seriel #666!
Most techs and pianists that I know prefer the M to the L.

The O and the L are similar size, but very different in design. 

[keith d kerman]

Hi Ax!

[CJ Quinn]

CJ Quinn, is that really you?

Drat!  I thought my cleverly disguised screen name here would fool you. 
I guess you can't keep a mediocre opinonmongerer quiet for too long.

(edit:  moved L vs M questions to it's own thread.  SOrry about highjacking this one from Johnny)

[Axtremus]

(Apology to jonny k in nyc for this off-topic greeting to a couple of Internet pals.)

CJQ and Keith,

WELCOME! I am very glad to "see" both of you here.

[EDIT: Deleted bad jokes made at 2am last night.  ]

[Allan]

My mom (who used to be a concert pianist) liked the Bosedorfer but did not want to practice on it since so many venues have Steinways instead and she felt that Steinways had a stiffer action that needed getting used to.

[pianowelsh]

Every single piano by every single maker is different FACT! just go round every piano dealership until you find a piano you like  - as clearly price isn't a major consideration. It's always useful to bear in mind that if you by eg a steinway for a steinway dealership you get better aftersales we have some Bosendorfers locally but the local technition dosent understand them nearly as well as steinways so go somewhere specialist!! Remember where it will go as well because it will most likely sound totally different in your front room that a big reflective salesroom! I would ask for a trial 6 month rent with option to buy. Just a suggestion!!

[Hmoll]

Just an aside: I was in Faust Harrisons - NYC - last weekend, and the fellow there said they are going to be selling Bluthners as well.

[cognoscentus]

Great - i've been meaning to try a Bluthner and was worried I'd have to head deep into jersey territory to find one.

[CJ Quinn]

Great - i've been meaning to try a Bluthner and was worried I'd have to head deep into jersey territory to find one.

Hey, didn't I see you at 200 Lex yesterday?     Can't you make up your mind?

[Axtremus]

Just an aside: I was in Faust Harrisons - NYC - last weekend, and the fellow there said they are going to be selling Bluthners as well.

Nice to have an earlierguess confirmed. Thanks.

[Axtremus]

Nice to have an earlier guess confirmed. Thanks.

[cognoscentus]

Hey, didn't I see you at 200 Lex yesterday?     Can't you make up your mind?

So many pianos, so little time....

[CJ Quinn]

Nice to have an earlierguess confirmed. Thanks.

Now Ax, you didn;t exactly need a crystal ball to predict that one.