what do you think is the most difficult piece

[Kapellmeister27]

...musically that is

There are so many posts where people discuss technically challenging pieces and other people bereate them for only caring about technique and not interpretation or musicality.

So, my question is, which piece or pieces (and please mention some that are fairly common in addition to less frequently played one) do you think are the most difficul musically?

By most difficult, I mean that if this piece were to be played at a competition by all a lot of major pianists, it would have such a variety of performances that the judges would have a nearly impossible time figuring out which interpretation they thought most accurately conveyed the perforemers or composers intents. 

[sharon_f]

Beethoven's Diabelli Variations

[lenny]

sorabji's opus clavicembalisticum is naturally one of the most difficult pieces musically

[steinwayguy]

Beethoven's Diabelli Variations

Agree.

Also, Schubert D.960, the 4th Ballade (IMO), Mozart's 25th concerto and Beethoven's 4th concerto.

[klavierkonzerte]

i think beethoven apassionata is very hard musically

[apion]

sorabji's opus clavicembalisticum is naturally one of the most difficult pieces musically

Agreed.  In fact, just about any piece that lasts that long (4+ hours) will be difficult.

[apion]

Beethoven's Diabelli Variations

I think the Brahms Paganini Variations are on par, or perhaps more difficult than, the Diabelli.

[Hamfast]

I think all Chopin's pieces are very hard musically, hard technically
Liszt' pieces are very hard technically, difficult musisally
Rachmaninow's pieces are hard technically and musically;
Schuman, Scriabin, Beethoven, Brahms is very very hard.


But the hardest piece in whole world is....

 ;DBach's FIRST TWO PART INVENTION!!!!!!!!!!! 

[apion]

I think all Chopin's pieces are very hard musically, hard technically
Liszt' pieces are very hard technically, difficult musisally
Rachmaninow's pieces are hard technically and musically;
Schuman, Scriabin, Beethoven, Brahms is very very hard.


But the hardest piece in whole world is....

 ;DBach's FIRST TWO PART INVENTION!!!!!!!!!!! 

Hamfast, who's more technically demanding:

CHOPIN
LISZT
RACHMANINOFF

?

[Hamfast]

Technically? LISZT, decidedly. Look over his Etudes, Hungarian Rapsodies, Mephisto Waltzes and Sonata B.

[Hamfast]

I think those pieses is hardest than his concertos. What do you think about it?

[SDL]

I notice its back onto technical again!!
If its technical then arguably the most difficult piano music is that of Alkan.  Even Liszt found it the most difficult music above his own and considered him the greatest viruoso of the time.  Most Alkan works are even too stretchy for some people to even contemplate let alone the technical demands.  Charles Valentin Alkan was a recluse most of his life (after a short successful career on the concert platform).  Chopin was his close friend in Paris.  You would probably say some of his music is like Liszt for example - the grande Sonate is very similar to the Liszt B minor sonata theme.  But Alkan wrote his first!!  He's very influential but its not widely known and no doubtl covered up at the time. 

If you havent heard of Alkan can I suggest you listen to Hamelin play him.

Musically - theres so much that's difficult to play well (with new ideas convincingly) that theres too much to mention.

[Hamfast]

If you havent heard of Alkan can I suggest you listen to Hamelin play him.

Musically - theres so much that's difficult to play well (with new ideas convincingly) that theres too much to mention.

I agree.
Where I find some Hamelin's performances?

[jcromp78]

A piece that is definatley up there with the most difficult ever written would have to be Charles Ives "Concord Sonata". If not the whole thing at least the movement entitled "Hawthorne" requires extraordinary virtuosity and is musically quite challenging also. It takes a Hamelin to play a piece like this and make it sound great. There are as far as I know not very many other recordings of this piece besides Hamelin's.

[presto agitato]

Liszt - Hungarian Rhapsodie num 12
Schubert- Wanderer Fantasy
Mendelssohn - Variations Serious

Those pieces combine virtuoso technique, great musicality and feeling of fire.

[anda]

...musically that is

brahms - ballades op. 10

[Ludwig Van Rachabji]

sorabji's opus clavicembalisticum is naturally one of the most difficult pieces musically

I agree with Lenny 100%. A pianist who completely butchered this piece musically (as well as technically) was Madge. It seemed as if he thought he could get away with it. Well, I have played the Opus Clav. at 1/100th the speed, and discovered that this piece was, in fact, completely tonal, and that if Madge had interpreted it correctly (and played the right notes!) it would sound completely different.

Somebody should learn this piece AND LEARN IT RIGHT! Now there's a concept! When we have pianists like Madge who don't seem to give a d@mn whether they play the right notes or not, we end up having many people dislike Sorabji without truly knowing what his music sounds like (and after my discovery, I realize that I don't even know!).

A shame.

[lenny]

yeah, madge has really commited wuite a musical crime, i heard his recording and thought the piece was a load of crap, then i saw the score and....hmmm

[apion]

I think those pieses is hardest than his concertos. What do you think about it?

Yes, I think you're correct.  However, piano concertos add an entirely new layer of difficulty not found in solo piano, so we're really comparing apples to oranges.  Have you ever studied the score to Liszt's "Totentanz" for piano and orchestra?  It's probably Liszt's most demanding piece overall.

[apion]

I notice its back onto technical again!!
If its technical then arguably the most difficult piano music is that of Alkan.  Even Liszt found it the most difficult music above his own and considered him the greatest viruoso of the time.  Most Alkan works are even too stretchy for some people to even contemplate let alone the technical demands.  Charles Valentin Alkan was a recluse most of his life (after a short successful career on the concert platform).  Chopin was his close friend in Paris.  You would probably say some of his music is like Liszt for example - the grande Sonate is very similar to the Liszt B minor sonata theme.  But Alkan wrote his first!!  He's very influential but its not widely known and no doubtl covered up at the time. 

If you havent heard of Alkan can I suggest you listen to Hamelin play him.

Musically - theres so much that's difficult to play well (with new ideas convincingly) that theres too much to mention.

When you say "the Alkan," are you referring to the Concerto for Piano, the Symphony for Piano, or both?

[apion]

Liszt - Hungarian Rhapsodie num 12
Schubert- Wanderer Fantasy
Mendelssohn - Variations Serious

Those pieces combine virtuoso technique, great musicality and feeling of fire.

I agree with the first two.  The "Wanderer" is a killer.  I've never heard the Mendelssohn.

[lenny]

When you say "the Alkan," are you referring to the Concerto for Piano, the Symphony for Piano, or both?

he referred to neither, just alkan in general

he wrote more than just those works you know!

and actually IMO his most technically demanding piece is the etude for right hand alone

[apion]

he referred to neither, just alkan in general

he wrote more than just those works you know!

and actually IMO his most technically demanding piece is the etude for right hand alone

Thanks.  It seems that Alkan has composed some of the most ferociously difficult piano music in the literature.

I wonder if that was his express intention?  (or did it just happen to turn out that way)

[pianowelsh]

EVERYTHING is difficult!

[musicsdarkangel]

Mozart sonata in D major k 284

the first and 3rd movements, musically, are beasts.


Props to Pires and la Rocha

[Hamfast]

Yes, I think you're correct.  However, piano concertos add an entirely new layer of difficulty not found in solo piano, so we're really comparing apples to oranges.  Have you ever studied the score to Liszt's "Totentanz" for piano and orchestra?  It's probably Liszt's most demanding piece overall.

I have never studied "Totentanz" and i have heard only Zimerman's interpretation. I think, its perfect! and must be very very hard but i dont know what is more difficult to performance: Totentanz or 12Etudes Transcendante, Concert-Etudes and Paganini Etudes

[apion]

I have never studied "Totentanz" and i have heard only Zimerman's interpretation. I think, its perfect! and must be very very hard

Yes, yes, Zimerman is up to the task.  Totentanz is perfect, and it's quintessentially Liszt. 

 but i dont know what is more difficult to performance: Totentanz or 12Etudes Transcendante, Concert-Etudes and Paganini Etudes

Well, NOTHING is harder than the Transcendental Etudes, agreed?

[steinwayguy]

Well, NOTHING is harder than the Transcendental Etudes, agreed?

Mozart is harder than the Transcendental Etudes.

[lenny]

Thanks.  It seems that Alkan has composed some of the most ferociously difficult piano music in the literature.

I wonder if that was his express intention?  (or did it just happen to turn out that way)

not just ferociously difficult - he was the most aggressively furious composer of the 19th century.

the difficulty was a combined result of his taste for insane speed and fury - and the orchestral nature of his piano writing which he wrote almost entirely without pianistic compromise - to attain the new sounds he desired the difficulty is necessary.

also - i think his op39 contains some of the most difficult piano works from a musical view too.

the concerto and symphony for solo piano demand extremely complex interprative abilities(for their sheer architectural grandeur and thematic unity etc.)