having trouble with finger speed

[pascalxus]

I've noticed a pattern, that whenever I learn a piece that requires fast finger speed like mozart sonatas (sixteenth notes played at allegro), for example, I tend to get stuck at around 90 to 100 bpm.  I have no problem learning to play them at 40 bpm, 50, 60, 70, even 80.

For instance, I just started Mozart sonata k280 (189e), 1st movement allegro assai, just the first page, practiced it for 7 hours over the last couple of weeks and my progress has slowed considerably, above 90 bpm.

I practice slowly (from 45 to 85) and vary the pace a lot, mostly with the metronome.  The triplets aren't so bad because the finger speed requirement is slower on those.

I looked up some research to see what speed the pros play this particular piece at and it says:
130 136 140 153 140. (bpm). https://www.eecs.qmul.ac.uk/~simond/pub/2001/isscm-classes.pdf

Are these speeds realistically achievable for the amateur piano players ( < 2 hr practice per day) ?

Is anyone else running into the same issues I am?  or is it just me?

[brogers70]

I'm an amateur. I started piano 25 years ago, at age 40. I can play all the major and minor scales at 140-160 bpm with 4 notes to the beat (16ths), so certainly fast enough for the Mozart scalar passages you are talking about. I spent many years practicing them not very effectively - though at least I managed to engrain the fingerings in my head. Then over the past 3 years I started using a bunch of practice tips from Josh Wright's videos (lots of them free on youtube), and working explicitly on increasing the speed. It's definitely doable, but I think that simply going through them every day and trying to gradually up the metronome speed is not very efficient. There are lots of approaches to try, finger staccato, rhythms, working on just the shifts in hand position, various relaxation exercises. I think you need to use a variety of practice techniques to get scalar passages up to a good speed, cleanly. But it's certainly achievable; you don't need to have started at age 4. Not sure about 200 BPM, but the speeds you want for Mozart are doable.

[jamienc]

I know I’ve mentioned this in many other posts here, but I’ll say again that the faster your fingers move through a passage of scales or arpeggios, the lighter and less “in the key” you must play through the note groupings. You have to be very careful when slow practicing any passage that requires speed and agility. My rationale for saying this is because when you move slower on the keyboard, the tendency is to remain in the key for a longer period of time due to the fact that the technical requirements at a slower tempo are much easier than when a performance tempo is faster. Here is what I suspect is happening:

When you are practicing the scales at half tempo, you are probably over-connecting all of the notes, making them much more legato than they realistically will be as you start to approach your desired tempo. It is very easy to be complacent with the “wrong“ physical technique when there is little pressure to play the notes in rapid succession. If you don’t train the body at a slow tempo to perform the passages as they will feel at the faster tempo, then the slow practice has essentially been wasted. I have found that practicing at 1/2 of the desired tempo is in most cases too slow for the proper technique to be applied without a tremendous amount of concentration and a strong knowledge of how the playing mechanism should feel. I tend to hover around 2/3 of the desired tempo or above.

I know this doesn’t apply to every single person who plays the instrument, but I have found faster passages to be much easier when the finger engages with the key and releases quickly to allow for a little bit of space between each of the notes in the groupings. I am certainly not saying that everything is to be played staccato, but the quicker the finger activates and releases the key, the faster and cleaner your scale/arpeggio passages will become at your desired tempo. This kind of approach simply facilitates much more mobility between the shifts in your scale or arpeggio passages and results in more fluid and even execution of the passage overall.

Try practicing around 100 bpm with a lighter finger action that is less legato and see if that helps you increase your speed without losing accuracy or evenness. Hope this helps!

[brogers70]

I know this doesn’t apply to every single person who plays the instrument, but I have found faster passages to be much easier when the finger engages with the key and releases quickly to allow for a little bit of space between each of the notes in the groupings. I am certainly not saying that everything is to be played staccato, but the quicker the finger activates and releases the key, the faster and cleaner your scale/arpeggio passages will become at your desired tempo.

I agree. I think that this is one reason why practicing a fast passage at a comfortable tempo using a very quick finger staccato is helpful. If you've been being "sticky" on some particular note you'll notice that when you play the passage with finger staccato, that note will feel awkward, and it shows you right where the problem is. And then just doing the finger staccato will help you get used to getting off the key faster. Often in fast passages it's not getting onto the keys fast enough that's the problem, but getting off them quickly.

[pianistavt]

I know I’ve mentioned this in many other posts here, but I’ll say again that the faster your fingers move through a passage of scales or arpeggios, the lighter and less “in the key” you must play through the note groupings. You have to be very careful when slow practicing any passage that requires speed and agility. My rationale for saying this is because when you move slower on the keyboard, the tendency is to remain in the key for a longer period of time due to the fact that the technical requirements at a slower tempo are much easier than when a performance tempo is faster. Here is what I suspect is happening:

I haven't come across this idea here, and haven't thought about it in quite a while, so thanks for mentioning it Yet Again.  I think I've fallen into the trap of playing too into the keys, too heavy a touch, with Chopin scherzo 2, which has made it tough to move the tempo forward.  There's a lot of legato at forte in this piece so it's counter-intuitive to practice staccato at mp, but I think it's absolutely required.

[lelle]

It's ultimately a technique issue. If practicing slowly doesn't enable you to play it faster, you need to work on your overall playing technique. I think it's absolutely achievable for an amateur, it's just that there are physical things holding you back right now. Do you have a teacher who can help you progress?

[beebebleuga]

Thinking about using the arms and wrists to help the fingers play the passage in big motions (depending on how you group) could help!
Perhaps moving your arm horizontally to lead the motion would help? Make sure that the arm is guiding the fingers and not the other way around. Also make sure that the wrists are not tensed but the fingers (maybe from the knuckles) are firm.
Usually when I have problems with scaly passages I play all the notes that I can at once to make sure that my hand is aligned well with the keys (hope this makes sense..) Practicing the passage in dotted rhythms and triplets can help! Also break the passage down if it is not short, and practice many different tempos!

[teresa_b]

Hi, haven't been on here in awhile. I am an amateur pianist, but I have played a ton of Mozart, so I have experience with the type of passage you're referring to. I agree with not practicing too slowly, or you may be putting too much weight into the keys.  I think you can't overestimate the importance of scales! OK, they're a little boring, but it helps a LOT if you have the "muscle memory" of what the scale feels like in the key you're working in. Then you're ahead of the game learning Mozartean passage work ("Oh, this is just an A Major scale!"). Think "air" between the notes, don't try to do super-connected finger legato (remember what Mozart's piano sounded like?). Don't drop your wrist or use a lot of arm weight in this kind of passage. Good luck! A good teacher could help show you a lot of techniques much more effectively than people can describe them online. Good luck and enjoy the music! 

[ranjit]

Fwiw, I started as an adult and can play scales at 180-200 bpm if I really push it, albeit not cleanly. I haven't really seen a hard limit. But simply working with the metronome may not help; it is not what I did, at any rate.