the most difficult short work in the romantic repertoire?

[lenny]

of all the romantic repertoire and some of the 20th century(works that are tonal and ''appealing') which short works are the most difficult?

im looking for a piece thats not too long(in terms of pages and length too..) to have as a huge challenge to go alongside my building of normal difficulty repertoire.

im thinking possibly one of the most difficult chopin godowsky studies?
maybe the liszt grande etude no10 - which i love
alkan's op39 have some great possibilities(shorter ones of course)

any ideas?

[brewtality]

Are you really ready to handle such difficult repetoire? You strike me as someone who likes to play pieces that you are not ready to play. I seem to recall you stating that the Ocean Etude was your first ever piece; i shudder to imagine how horribly you must have butchered it (no offence). Since you're keen, why don't you try the Grande Etude no 5? or Alkan 39/1 at full tempo. I expect these should provide you with a decent challenge. 

[lenny]

yes, i am completely ready to learn the notes, playing it really well will come much later.

you think 39/1 is that difficult aside fromt the speed?
it is actually very long, if i remember its over 20 or so pages!

[chromatickler]

yes, i am completely ready to learn the notes

mass debatable

[SteinwayTony]

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7005.0.html

[lenny]

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7005.0.html

grow up... 

[presto agitato]

im looking for a piece thats not too long(in terms of pages and length too..) to have as a huge challenge to go alongside my building of normal difficulty repertoire.

im thinking possibly one of the most difficult chopin godowsky studies?
maybe the liszt grande etude no10 - which i love
alkan's op39 have some great possibilities(shorter ones of course)

any ideas?

Forget about Alkan (Yeah, he wrote hard music but the 90% of his works sound like crap IMO) . Godowsky? I dont like his stuff at all so i can give you an advoce about him.

OK. You are looking for short piece, so try Chopinīs Op 28 nums 8-16 and 24. If you think those preludes are easy, i really like to hear your recording of them...

[lenny]

those preludes are difficult pieces, but theyre nothing compared to the kind sof works im looking for.

you disliking godowsky and alkan doesnt help either - as i adore both composers, and actually alkan is my favourite piano composer.

i like EVERYTHING ive heard by him(eyes-even little trifles) - and i think his greatest works should stand alongside the greatest works of chopin, liszt, schumann, etc.

i think godowksy is actually alot more difficult than alkan in many way, but where alkan is more difficult - is often the atheletic element in his playing - the sheer force, endurance, and speed required.

[SteinwayTony]

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7005.0.html

...The point being that it is silly and naive to choose a piece for its difficulty alone.  Besides, when would you practice it?

[Ant1]

i think chopin op 10, no 4. sounds great and is very hard. otherwise op 10, no 1 or liszt mephisto waltz, also fantasie impromptu - chopin

[Ed Marlo]

Grand Galop Chromatique (Liszt) at full pace.

[Op. 1 No. 2]

...The point being that it is silly and naive to choose a piece for its difficulty alone.  Besides, when would you practice it?

In that case you're probably missing the point of the thread, so stop trying to be smart.

[lenny]

...The point being that it is silly and naive to choose a piece for its difficulty alone.  Besides, when would you practice it?

my point is , IM CHOOSING TO PLAY THE MOST DIFFICULT PIECE I CAN, as a huge challenge to myself.

as i said, i want ideas, and i have to actually really like the piece..

[SteinwayTony]

my point is , IM CHOOSING TO PLAY THE MOST DIFFICULT PIECE I CAN, as a huge challenge to myself.

as i said, i want ideas, and i have to actually really like the piece..

The title of the thread is "the most difficult short work in the romantic repertoire." 

You've worded it so that there must be one piece that supercedes all others in difficulty.  So since your request will presumably yield one work, there is no guarantee you will like it.  Don't throw a hissy fit because of the words you used.

In that case you're probably missing the point of the thread, so stop trying to be smart.

You're right, sweetheart.  I'm off to play Opus Clavicembalisticum. 

[lenny]

The title of the thread is "the most difficult short work in the romantic repertoire." 

You've worded it so that there must be one piece that supercedes all others in difficulty.  So since your request will presumably yield one work, there is no guarantee you will like it.  Don't throw a hissy fit because of the words you used.



You're right, sweetheart.  I'm off to play Opus Clavicembalisticum. 

of course there are multiple candidates, im looking for pieces that are among the most difficult of all, and ill chose the one i think is mosty challenging, and of course that i like most!

[steinwayguy]

i think chopin op 10, no 4. sounds great and is very hard. otherwise op 10, no 1 or liszt mephisto waltz, also fantasie impromptu - chopin

Definitely not even close champ.


Just learn Scarbo or Petrouchka.

[Skeptopotamus]

scarbo isnt that short i dont think.


for SHORT, check the rach/scriabin preludes and etudes

and for kinda short, scarbo or islamei are the most common ones.

[e60m5]

my point is , IM CHOOSING TO PLAY THE MOST DIFFICULT PIECE I CAN, as a huge challenge to myself.

as i said, i want ideas, and i have to actually really like the piece..

Fair enough, but that's a pretty poor basis upon which to decide what you're going to play. But hell, to each his own. Go play Islamey or Gaspard if you want.

[lenny]

Fair enough, but that's a pretty poor basis upon which to decide what you're going to play. But hell, to each his own. Go play Islamey or Gaspard if you want.

why did you decide to learn islamey? 

mr. hypocrite...

[e60m5]

why did you decide to learn islamey? 

mr. hypocrite...

Because I genuinely liked the piece.

If I wanted to learn the most difficult piece around, wouldn't I have chosen something else?

You know nothing about me, the pieces I play, why I play the pieces I do, and why I play in the first place. So please don't call me a hypocrite.

However, you have announced to everybody that you want to pick a piece to play because it's the most difficult piece ever.

Very different situation for the both of us.

[lenny]

Because I genuinely liked the piece.

If I wanted to learn the most difficult piece around, wouldn't I have chosen something else?

You know nothing about me, the pieces I play, why I play the pieces I do, and why I play in the first place. So please don't call me a hypocrite.

However, you have announced to everybody that you want to pick a piece to play because it's the most difficult piece ever.

Very different situation for the both of us.

no, i want to choose the most difficult piece that i may like

i do like islamey alot actually, but im thinking more along the lines of a chopin-godowsky study, i love quite a few of them.

the winterwind one looks especially difficult and fun.

whats wrong with choosing a piece for this reason?

[e60m5]

no, i want to choose the most difficult piece that i may like

i do like islamey alot actually, but im thinking more along the lines of a chopin-godowsky study, i love quite a few of them.

the winterwind one looks especially difficult and fun.

whats wrong with choosing a piece for this reason?

It's not a very good reason to choose a piece for several reasons. Firstly and most obviously, choosing the most difficult work would mean choosing a work for which you're not ready (and I don't mean you as in :you:, but in general), unless you're Marc-André Hamelin or something. Choosing a work for which you're not ready isn't wise at all. Secondly, choosing a piece on its technical merits alone would limit your enjoyment of the piece to its technical joys - and if the piece in question was the most difficult around, then very quickly I anticipate those joys would turn to frustrations. Thirdly - why should you choose a piece based on its difficulty alone? What reason is there, other than to be able to say "Oh, I've learnt that"? Is there any other reason other than to brag?

As for ChopGods, my favourites are the 10/3 and 10/12 ones. Both for the LH alone.

[lenny]

yes, its for showing off, to brag, and also a sense of personal accomplishment.

i just think im very talented and want a bit of a challenge.

[e60m5]

yes, its for showing off, to brag, and also a sense of personal accomplishment.

i just think im very talented and want a bit of a challenge.

 

[lenny]

 

 

[Skeptopotamus]

that's a good enough reason for me!

but if you want a piece to show off with, romantic era isnt the best.


Babajanian Poem for Piano
Prokofiev Toccata
Bowen Toccata
Corigliano Etude No. 4 "Ornament"


will always impress.

[lenny]

that's a good enough reason for me!

but if you want a piece to show off with, romantic era isnt the best.


Babajanian Poem for Piano
Prokofiev Toccata
Bowen Toccata
Corigliano Etude No. 4 "Ornament"


will always impress.

a havent heard the 1st and 4th pieces you listed, i like the other 2 but are they really the hardest out there?

[musicsdarkangel]

Oh come on guys, I understand your points, but give him a break.

Hmmm Mephisto Waltz (10-14 min)
La Campanella (4-6 min, a pregnant dog.)
Rachmaninoff op 23 no 7 isn't that hard, but is beautiful and pretty difficult to play well.

I agree with Grand Gallope Chromatique as well.

[Skeptopotamus]

um no they are not the very hardest.   But if we get much harder then we get to VERY unappealing music.  Those 4 pieces are nasty enough.  sigh........



check out the ligeti etudes if you are really looking to kill yourself.  Sorabji wrote a couple sonatas i think that aren't very long at all.  Look up Mardi Gras from Danielpour's The Enchanted Garden, try Massiaen's Vignt Regards suite.  Xenakis wrote some shorter pieces which you cant play.  Alkan wrote some stuff that you also will be unable to play.  Try Berg's Piano Sonata Op. 1. Busoni's Sonatina No. 2 or Liebermann stuff.  Godowsky will mop the floor with you too if you aren't a Chopin expert.  Rautavaara can be completely impossible at times, Szymanowski and Penderecki also come to mind as being almost unplayable in certain pieces.


have fun..... i guess.  Look up the single pieces yourself.

[lenny]

actually the rachmaninov op23no9 is a contender, ive heard people say its more difficult than any chopin or liszt double note etude

[lenny]

um no they are not the very hardest.   But if we get much harder then we get to VERY unappealing music.  Those 4 pieces are nasty enough.  sigh........



check out the ligeti etudes if you are really looking to kill yourself.  Sorabji wrote a couple sonatas i think that aren't very long at all.  Look up Mardi Gras from Danielpour's The Enchanted Garden, try Massiaen's Vignt Regards suite.  Xenakis wrote some shorter pieces which you cant play.  Alkan wrote some stuff that you also will be unable to play.  Try Berg's Piano Sonata Op. 1. Busoni's Sonatina No. 2 or Liebermann stuff.  Godowsky will mop the floor with you too if you aren't a Chopin expert.  Rautavaara can be completely impossible at times, Szymanowski and Penderecki also come to mind as being almost unplayable in certain pieces.


have fun..... i guess.  Look up the single pieces yourself.

yes i realise the difficulty of 20th century works, but the porblem is, i dont like them enough to sped that much time on!

i love godowsky and alkan, so they are probably the top candidates!

which are the hardest alkan and godowsky pieces then? 

[Skeptopotamus]

i would think you would learn anything you could brag about and use to stroke your ego.


jk



anyways, for alkan?  hmmm....what is hard by alkan?  i would go with everything.

for short pieces i'd like to see you get Comme Le Vent below 4:30
WARNING SHOWING OFF HERE Mine's under 4:25   ALERT IS OVER

try le preux if you dont like comme le vent.

[Op. 1 No. 2]

You're right, sweetheart.  I'm off to play Opus Clavicembalisticum. 

See, that's exactly what I mean. If this kid wants to play those things, let him play them. I don't see your problem. Perhaps he is ready for it (I doubt it, but you can never know.)

[lenny]

i would think you would learn anything you could brag about and use to stroke your ego.


jk



anyways, for alkan?  hmmm....what is hard by alkan?  i would go with everything.

for short pieces i'd like to see you get Comme Le Vent below 4:30
WARNING SHOWING OFF HERE Mine's under 4:25   ALERT IS OVER

try le preux if you dont like comme le vent.

i love both those pieces, are you sure theyr are the hardest alkan pieces?

i think op76no2 - etude for right hand alone is his hardest piece - but its quite long

[thracozaag]

actually the rachmaninov op23no9 is a contender, ive heard people say its more difficult than any chopin or liszt double note etude

  It is.

koji (STSD)

[chromatickler]

Liszt's 1835 paganini etude#4 version2

[lenny]

Liszt's 1835 paganini etude#4 version2

ive heard of this one, what kind of tempo is required?

[SteinwayTony]

See, that's exactly what I mean. If this kid wants to play those things, let him play them. I don't see your problem. Perhaps he is ready for it (I doubt it, but you can never know.)

Okay, cupcake.  Off to play Symphony for Solo Piano!

[Op. 1 No. 2]

Okay, cupcake.  Off to play Symphony for Solo Piano!

 

[Floristan]

Short, romantic period, very difficult:  Schumann Toccata, maybe, or is that too long?

[SteinwayTony]

 

 

[pianowelsh]

You cant do much better than the Scumann toccata NOONE will argue its difficulty (no  you wont!!!!!) and it is intensely romantic in senitiment and compositional style. The only problem is it is essentially etude like - it will stretch your doubled note playing but not much else - it will keep you occupied for sometime though! It certainly must be considered one of the hardest romantic shortworks (ie under 10mins) - several distinguished names refuse to play it in public in fact and really i know works like Gaspard and Prokofiev toccata are HARD but are they really romantic in any sense???

[Skeptopotamus]

hehe


schumann toccata isnt as hard as most of the stuff that has gotten mentioned.


and i find it rather dry as far as emotion goes.

[thracozaag]

hehe


schumann toccata isnt as hard as most of the stuff that has gotten mentioned.


and i find it rather dry as far as emotion goes.

  As with most things, it depends on the performance.

koji (STSD)

[lenny]

i have never really liked the schumann toccata very much, the section with octaves is my favouriter though.

Okay, cupcake. Off to play Symphony for Solo Piano!

what about the last movement of this, how hard is it?

[Skeptopotamus]

it's hard enough.  if it's alkan it's gonna be hard.

[lenny]

it's hard enough.  if it's alkan it's gonna be hard.

i dont want hard enough, i want THE HARDEST 

[Skeptopotamus]

hehe- ok tough guy.   Try the Ligeti Etude No. 6 "Automne e Varisie"


i can play it so im sure you can too

[lenny]

hehe- ok tough guy.   Try the Ligeti Etude No. 6 "Automne e Varisie"


i can play it so im sure you can too

problem is...i just looked at the score  , but ill have to hear it...im not sure if ill actually like it

this is why i asked for romantic pieces 

[fred smalls]

Lenny, i know you think you are very talented and you prbably are, but please be modest. With respect,  I find your posts irritating and i think you should start being a little more modest. By the way, some good (hard) pieces are....

1.Mezeppa
2.Feux Follets
3.Chasse-neige

All from the tanscendental etudes, as you know. I can't play any of them but they are very hard and appealing to the ear. Try these (if you haven't already learnt the entire Transcendental etudes, jk )
Good luck......