Did Chopin add dynamics and pedals with his music editor?

[nrdpiano]

I'm new to this forum. My name is Nicolas, and I'm a piano teacher in France. I have a quick question, and I thought this community might be able to help me.
There's something I don't understand when studying a Chopin mazurka. The manuscript version doesn't contain any indications of dynamics or pedals, whereas the Urtext version does. That's strange, isn't it?
I checked other scores, such as a polonaise, but there are many indications of dynamics and pedals in his manuscript.
My theory would be that the manuscript versions do not include any performance indications. On the other hand, he probably validated his indications with his first publisher during his lifetime. But I can't find any evidence of this when searching forums. Do you have any idea?
Here you can find the link of Chopin Mazurka Op.7 No.4: https://vmirror.imslp.org/files/imglnks/usimg/d/dd/IMSLP775308-PMLP2289-936_Chopin_Fryderyk_1810-1849_Dwa_mazurki_Mazurka_e-mo-2.pdf
And the Urtext version: https://imslp.org/wiki/Mazurkas,_Op.7_(Chopin,_Fr%C3%A9d%C3%A9ric)

[kosulin]

It is known that Chopin worked with his French publishers, which means that the stuff introduced in his French editions should be considered legitimate (except errors/misprints).
I am not sure which Urtext edition of Mazurkas you mean, but editors of most editions base their decisions not just on autograph. They would use, for example, 1st and 2nd French editions that belonged to Chopin pupils and sister (at least 3 copies survived) with Chopin's fingerings, annotations and corrections, and German (Kistner) editions.
The original Mikuli edition (Kistner, not Schirmer) - Mikuli was pupil of Chopin, and his fingerings and dynamics might be legitimate but not necessarily authentic Chopin.
Speaking about Op.7/4 - in addition to autograph there is a sketch by Chopin with fingerings that are missing in the autograph.
Here you can read online the critical commentary to the (best at the momemt IMO) National Edition (Ekier), and to the Henle edition:
https://www.chopin-nationaledition.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/mazurkas-commentaries.pdf
https://www.henle.de/en/download/KB_ausfuehrlich/0265.pdf
Henle edition even went as far as publishing two versions of Op.7-4.
And here you can see scans of many Chopin sources:
https://chopinonline.ac.uk/ocve/browse/

[dizzyfingers]

It is known that Chopin worked with his French publishers, which means that the stuff introduced in his French editions should be considered legitimate (except errors/misprints).
I am not sure which Urtext edition of Mazurkas you mean, but editors of most editions base their decisions not just on autograph. They would use, for example, 1st and 2nd French editions that belonged to Chopin pupils and sister (at least 3 copies survived) with Chopin's fingerings, annotations and corrections, and German (Kistner) editions.
The original Mikuli edition (Kistner, not Schirmer) - Mikuli was pupil of Chopin, and his fingerings and dynamics might be legitimate but not necessarily authentic Chopin.
Speaking about Op.7/4 - in addition to autograph there is a sketch by Chopin with fingerings that are missing in the autograph.
Here you can read online the critical commentary to the (best at the momemt IMO) National Edition (Ekier), and to the Henle edition:
https://www.chopin-nationaledition.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/mazurkas-commentaries.pdf
https://www.henle.de/en/download/KB_ausfuehrlich/0265.pdf
Henle edition even went as far as publishing two versions of Op.7-4.
And here you can see scans of many Chopin sources:
https://chopinonline.ac.uk/ocve/browse/

kosulin, your knowledge of Chopin autorgraphs and early editions is impressive!
does this knowledge extend to other composers?

have you written up your story in Introduction ?
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=122.0

[lelle]

The Urtext question is notoriously difficult with Chopin, exactly because the autographs and first published editions often differ. Chopin was also smart as a business man and published his compositions separately in France, Germany and England. Often, the first editions in each location differ in significant details, and all of them were approved by the composer. However, modern Urtext editions are meticolously researched to get an as "true" text as possible - though this is more difficult with Chopin for the above stated reasons - so I would generally trust them.

[nrdpiano]

It is known that Chopin worked with his French publishers, which means that the stuff introduced in his French editions should be considered legitimate (except errors/misprints).
I am not sure which Urtext edition of Mazurkas you mean, but editors of most editions base their decisions not just on autograph. They would use, for example, 1st and 2nd French editions that belonged to Chopin pupils and sister (at least 3 copies survived) with Chopin's fingerings, annotations and corrections, and German (Kistner) editions.
The original Mikuli edition (Kistner, not Schirmer) - Mikuli was pupil of Chopin, and his fingerings and dynamics might be legitimate but not necessarily authentic Chopin.
Speaking about Op.7/4 - in addition to autograph there is a sketch by Chopin with fingerings that are missing in the autograph.
Here you can read online the critical commentary to the (best at the momemt IMO) National Edition (Ekier), and to the Henle edition:
https://www.chopin-nationaledition.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/mazurkas-commentaries.pdf
https://www.henle.de/en/download/KB_ausfuehrlich/0265.pdf
Henle edition even went as far as publishing two versions of Op.7-4.
And here you can see scans of many Chopin sources:
https://chopinonline.ac.uk/ocve/browse/

Thank you so much for this detailed explanation! I will continue to study it!

[nrdpiano]

The Urtext question is notoriously difficult with Chopin, exactly because the autographs and first published editions often differ. Chopin was also smart as a business man and published his compositions separately in France, Germany and England. Often, the first editions in each location differ in significant details, and all of them were approved by the composer. However, modern Urtext editions are meticolously researched to get an as "true" text as possible - though this is more difficult with Chopin for the above stated reasons - so I would generally trust them.

Thank you so much for your answer! The thing is that editors often rushed to publish the compositions to avoid illegal copies and some versions differ quite a lot so I have a little doubt that Chopin carefully studied each copy sent by the editors before publishing

[kosulin]

Thank you so much for this detailed explanation! I will continue to study it!

If you are interested in Mikuli (Kistner) editions, IMSLP does not have many, they host Schirmer which contains huge number of misprints. All Kistner volumes are available at https://polona.pl/ in good quality. Just do a search by chopin mikuli there.

[jonathannyc]

Hello NRD Piano,

The manuscripts verified to be in Chopin's handwriting often appear to be first drafts. But what did the publishers receive from him? Presumably, each publisher would receive a separate, hand-written draft. How many drafts were simply discarded afterwards? Would he have submitted copies to publishers so cursory as the example cited above? Perhaps, but I find that odd, as it seems somewhat out of character for Chopin, considering the exquisite precision he applied to every aspect of his life.

These questions cannot all be answered, but they are puzzles I also wrestle with. I cross-reference original manuscripts (if they exist) against first publications and then second editions (which might correct first editions, or not). And, in the final analysis, I am never completely confident I have arrived at any definitive truth. 

I go through this process with students at the piano, and my purpose is to get them in the habit of questioning what they see, considering the differences in what they hear, and to go through that deliberative process as part of building their musicianship.

And, with sincere respect for all matters of authenticity when approaching a genius like Chopin, he composed his music on his comparatively delicate Pleyel in his small parlor, and does every pedaling indication that pleased him in that acoustical setting work as well with a Steinway D in an auditorium seating 2,000? It's very easy to question that. The whole process is an interweaving of facts with intuition, and then proceeding with hope that the results honor the work.

Regards.
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