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Topic: Did Chopin add dynamics and pedals with his music editor?  (Read 172 times)

Offline nrdpiano

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Did Chopin add dynamics and pedals with his music editor?
on: September 04, 2025, 07:48:16 AM
I'm new to this forum. My name is Nicolas, and I'm a piano teacher in France. I have a quick question, and I thought this community might be able to help me.
There's something I don't understand when studying a Chopin mazurka. The manuscript version doesn't contain any indications of dynamics or pedals, whereas the Urtext version does. That's strange, isn't it?
I checked other scores, such as a polonaise, but there are many indications of dynamics and pedals in his manuscript.
My theory would be that the manuscript versions do not include any performance indications. On the other hand, he probably validated his indications with his first publisher during his lifetime. But I can't find any evidence of this when searching forums. Do you have any idea?
Here you can find the link of Chopin Mazurka Op.7 No.4: https://vmirror.imslp.org/files/imglnks/usimg/d/dd/IMSLP775308-PMLP2289-936_Chopin_Fryderyk_1810-1849_Dwa_mazurki_Mazurka_e-mo-2.pdf
And the Urtext version: https://imslp.org/wiki/Mazurkas,_Op.7_(Chopin,_Fr%C3%A9d%C3%A9ric)

Offline kosulin

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Re: Did Chopin add dynamics and pedals with his music editor?
Reply #1 on: September 04, 2025, 03:59:07 PM
It is known that Chopin worked with his French publishers, which means that the stuff introduced in his French editions should be considered legitimate (except errors/misprints).
I am not sure which Urtext edition of Mazurkas you mean, but editors of most editions base their decisions not just on autograph. They would use, for example, 1st and 2nd French editions that belonged to Chopin pupils and sister (at least 3 copies survived) with Chopin's fingerings, annotations and corrections, and German (Kistner) editions.
The original Mikuli edition (Kistner, not Schirmer) - Mikuli was pupil of Chopin, and his fingerings and dynamics might be legitimate but not necessarily authentic Chopin.
Speaking about Op.7/4 - in addition to autograph there is a sketch by Chopin with fingerings that are missing in the autograph.
Here you can read online the critical commentary to the (best at the momemt IMO) National Edition (Ekier), and to the Henle edition:
https://www.chopin-nationaledition.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/mazurkas-commentaries.pdf
https://www.henle.de/en/download/KB_ausfuehrlich/0265.pdf
Henle edition even went as far as publishing two versions of Op.7-4.
And here you can see scans of many Chopin sources:
https://chopinonline.ac.uk/ocve/browse/
Vlad

Offline dizzyfingers

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Re: Did Chopin add dynamics and pedals with his music editor?
Reply #2 on: September 05, 2025, 12:51:37 PM
It is known that Chopin worked with his French publishers, which means that the stuff introduced in his French editions should be considered legitimate (except errors/misprints).
I am not sure which Urtext edition of Mazurkas you mean, but editors of most editions base their decisions not just on autograph. They would use, for example, 1st and 2nd French editions that belonged to Chopin pupils and sister (at least 3 copies survived) with Chopin's fingerings, annotations and corrections, and German (Kistner) editions.
The original Mikuli edition (Kistner, not Schirmer) - Mikuli was pupil of Chopin, and his fingerings and dynamics might be legitimate but not necessarily authentic Chopin.
Speaking about Op.7/4 - in addition to autograph there is a sketch by Chopin with fingerings that are missing in the autograph.
Here you can read online the critical commentary to the (best at the momemt IMO) National Edition (Ekier), and to the Henle edition:
https://www.chopin-nationaledition.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/mazurkas-commentaries.pdf
https://www.henle.de/en/download/KB_ausfuehrlich/0265.pdf
Henle edition even went as far as publishing two versions of Op.7-4.
And here you can see scans of many Chopin sources:
https://chopinonline.ac.uk/ocve/browse/

kosulin, your knowledge of Chopin autorgraphs and early editions is impressive!
does this knowledge extend to other composers?

have you written up your story in Introduction ?
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=122.0






Offline lelle

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The Urtext question is notoriously difficult with Chopin, exactly because the autographs and first published editions often differ. Chopin was also smart as a business man and published his compositions separately in France, Germany and England. Often, the first editions in each location differ in significant details, and all of them were approved by the composer. However, modern Urtext editions are meticolously researched to get an as "true" text as possible - though this is more difficult with Chopin for the above stated reasons - so I would generally trust them.
For more information about this topic, click search below!

Piano Street Magazine:
New Piano Piece by Chopin Discovered – Free Piano Score

A previously unknown manuscript by Frédéric Chopin has been discovered at New York’s Morgan Library and Museum. The handwritten score is titled “Valse” and consists of 24 bars of music in the key of A minor and is considered a major discovery in the wold of classical piano music. Read more
 

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