The Pope

[mikeyg]

Just watching the news.  He is unconcious, and the news said he died, but then they said that he is still alive.  This guy accomplished alot in his life, eh?

[BoliverAllmon]

it is sad that he is gone. I hope everything will turn out ok.

boliver

[lfischer]

I'm looking at the news now, and most sources (updated an hour ago) say that he is "near death". However one or two say that he is dead, but I believe that these may be just premature... Its hard to say whether he's actually dead yet!

[BoliverAllmon]

I'm looking at the news now, and most sources (updated an hour ago) say that he is "near death". However one or two say that he is dead, but I believe that these may be just premature... Its hard to say whether he's actually dead yet!

well won't some type of smoke  be seen if the pope is dead?

boliver

[Waldszenen]

Yep, whenever a Pope dies then there's some pretty elaborate rituals involving gates and smoke and stuff.


I hope he lives through it, although he seems to be sufferring pretty bad.

[Cecin_Koot]

he died at 9:37 PM local time.  that was 5:37 in the morning for me.  now it is 12:14. 

[Waldszenen]

At least he's out of his suffering now.

[BoliverAllmon]

THe pictures of all those people surround st. peter's square was touching.

[lfischer]

Does anyone know who the new Pope will be? The last Pope had a good Papacy, but it'd be good to have someone more modern representing God now.

[Daevren]

Obviously no one knows who the new Pope will be. Within 20 days they will start the conclave where a new pope will be 'elected'.

How this happens can be read here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conclave

[BoliverAllmon]

Does anyone know who the new Pope will be? The last Pope had a good Papacy, but it'd be good to have someone more modern representing God now.

please define that last statement.

I heard recently that the Catholic faith have their own prophecies that state that an evil Pope will come into power and do horrific things. They say that he will aid or even become the anti-christ. Has anyone else heard this before? and if so what are their thoughts on the next pope becoming this person.

boliver

[lfischer]

I know that of course the next Pope has not been elected yet. But usually the cardinals all have a pretty good idea as to who will be the next one before the old one has even died... just wondering if anyone knew who the favourite to become next Pope might be.

I've never heard of that Catholic prophecy before.

[Daevren]

I think Revelations says that the anti-christ will infiltrate the Vatican.

I heard some people claim the anti-christ is alive today, a middle aged man in Europe. I heard one of the advisors of a previous pope claim that John Paul II wasn't a christian. He called him a bureaucrat, a manager, a CEO of the church. This explains strange things like him kissing the Quran. He claimed that the church wanted to absorb as many religions and rule over them. Thats why the last pope tried to make contact with many different religious. He also said that there are satanic activities in the vatican already.

The belief is that humanity will have a big problem and then someone will come and help humanity. He will be a well loved hero. Then he will claim he is Christ and he will demand worship. The Vatican will be supposed to be a 'battleground'.

I cannot say I like christian myths and prophecies.

[janice]

please define that last statement.

I heard recently that the Catholic faith have their own prophecies that state that an evil Pope will come into power and do horrific things. They say that he will aid or even become the anti-christ. Has anyone else heard this before? and if so what are their thoughts on the next pope becoming this person.

boliver

I'm not Catholic.  But Christians get prophecy about end-times mainly from the last book of the Bible, the book of Revelation.  The Old Testament book of Daniel is extremely prophetic.  I never heard of the prophecy of an evil POPE, but there are prophecies of an evil PERSON coming into power and doing horrific things.  The Bible talks about the Anti-Christ (singular), and that there will be many Anti-Christs (plural).  Personally, I can think of many people who seem evil enough to qualify an one of the anti-Christs!  I guess that I never thought that the next Pope could become that person, because I never think about Catholic stuff, but maybe I should.  Thank you so much for asking this question, because now I want to read and ask my pastor or someone who might know!!

[janice]

I heard some people claim the anti-christ is alive today, a middle aged man in Europe. 

In my opinion, this is a very accurate statement!  I believe that the anti-Christ is alive today, because I think that the "end times" are near, though I can't speculate.  I know that I need to study prophecy more, because I really lack the knowledge about this.  Have you read or heard of the "Left Behind" series?  It's a series of books (they are sooo addictive!!) about the 7 year period following the Rapture.  Basically, the books (fiction) put into story-format about what the book of Revelation says.  In the series, the Anti-Christ comes out of Europe and is middle-age.  If you can get ahold of "Left Behind", that would be great!  You will not be able to put it down!  I got so attached to the characters!  It's by Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins.

  This explains strange things like him kissing the Quran. He claimed that the church wanted to absorb as many religions and rule over them. Thats why the last pope tried to make contact with many different religious. He also said that there are satanic activities in the vatican already.
 

You very well could be right!  I bet that there are satanic activities in the vatican.

The belief is that humanity will have a big problem and then someone will come and help humanity. He will be a well loved hero. Then he will claim he is Christ and he will demand worship.   

YES!!  You are right on target!

[musik_man]

I think all this speculation about the end times is pretty stupid.  The Bible makes it quite clear that only God knows when it's going to occur.  There's no reason to make random guesses about whether it's coming soon, as they aren't based off any real information.

[Daevren]

Hey, I don't believe all this stuff.

Its just some rumours christians tell around.


The "Left Behind" books were covered here in the media in the context of the american elections. And about how many american voters believed that the end of times would come in their lives. This helped to explain why those people re-elected Bush, which is very hard to understand for Europeans.

And even if I was a christian, some writers translating so called bible propecies into modern polular fiction, assuming all kinds of stuff and filling gaps and adding detail by making up stuff, doesn't really sound like a good idea to me.

[Torp]

This helped to explain why those people re-elected Bush, which is very hard to understand for Europeans.

Trust me, it's very hard to understand for close to 50% of Americans too, myself included.

But, now that you mention it, having American's mind's swayed by a fictional book based on another fictional book at least provides 'some' explanation for our idiocy.

Sorry, I'll stop now since I obviously have nothing to say about the Pope, or at least nothing constructive.

Jef

[BoliverAllmon]

there is a rumor that says that the cardinals are thinking about electing a latin-american or african pope. Not sure if this will occur, but will be interesting to see.

any one heard of the Black Pope?

boliver

[Daevren]

There have been black popes before the middle ages.

[mikeyg]

Scratch that

[pocorina]

I am so sad that the Pope has died. I have no idea why; I hardly even knew his name, let alone the things he acheived.

And i hate the Vatican for all the things they covered up and the way they manipulate from the inside out. But i still got sad.

[musik_man]

The "Left Behind" books were covered here in the media in the context of the american elections. And about how many american voters believed that the end of times would come in their lives. This helped to explain why those people re-elected Bush, which is very hard to understand for Europeans.

....

That is terribly stupid.  Where did you read that?  I don't know a single Christian who voted for Bush because they think it will bring about the rapture.  Bizarre...

[janice]

I don't think that that is what Daevran meant, but I don't know!  (please correct me if I'm wrong, Daevran).  But I don't think that he meant that there are Christians who think that they can "speed up" the Rapture.  Christians realize that they are powerless to do so, and we know that the Bible says that ONLY God Himself knows the day or the hour.  Even Jesus--who we believe is the 2nd member of the Triune God--doesn't know!  I think that's pretty incredible!  Anyway, many Christians alive today believe that it will happen within their lifetime, and I think that this is because we just cannot imagine things getting worse!  Yes, I realize that Christians throughout the 2000 years since Christ was born have thought the exact same thing--"It can't get much worse than this!"  However, looking at Bible prophecy, most of the prophecies have been filled, and I know that many are related to Israel.

[Daevren]

....

That is terribly stupid.  Where did you read that?  I don't know a single Christian who voted for Bush because they think it will bring about the rapture.  Bizarre...

Do you know a single person that voted for Kerry because she/he believes there will be a rapture in their lifetime?

Its not that it will speed up. It just shows the US has a big conservative christian movement, a part Europeans rarely see. We see Hollywood and New York on TV.

I don't want to offend someone, but by bringing out the fact these books were on a best sellers list and showing a poll about how many people believed the rapture will be in their lifetime, voting for Bush doesn't seem that strange or bizarre anymore for the average European, or maybe better, for the average dutch person.

Do you think rapture believers wanted Kerry to be the president when the end of time started? I know many do not prefer Bush but Kerry is so awful to them. What if he legalised same sex marriage and euthanasia?

I think people did some research on the voting demography. These people generally don't vote but they did this last time and they gave Bush the victory.

Actually, about speeding up, this was kind of a thing. It was about Israel. But since Kerry and Bush had the same views on Israel I am not sure how important this was.

It can't get much worse than this? What do you mean? Wasn't it much worse? We never had democracies in the past, we had slavery, genocide was normal. Now we have human rights organisations, international law, people in democracy demand of their government to do something when a country starts to kill off a minority. We never had this before. Of course there are still bad things. But we have made some improvement.

[musik_man]

Do you know a single person that voted for Kerry because she/he believes there will be a rapture in their lifetime?

I don't know anyone who voted for anyone based off of their beliefs about the rapture.

I don't want to offend someone, but by bringing out the fact these books were on a best sellers list and showing a poll about how many people believed the rapture will be in their lifetime, voting for Bush doesn't seem that strange or bizarre anymore for the average European, or maybe better, for the average dutch person.

This paragraph kinda threw me off.  Are you saying that the high amount of people who believe the rapture will come soon, shows that the US has a large religuous movement, and that movement voted for Bush, not because of their beliefs about the rapture, but because of their general religious beliefs?

Do you think rapture believers wanted Kerry to be the president when the end of time started? I know many do not prefer Bush but Kerry is so awful to them. What if he legalised same sex marriage and euthanasia?

I don't see what the rapture has to do with any of this.  Most conservative Christians would be against gay-marriage and  euthanasia regardless of when they believed the rapture was coming.

Sorry if I appear snappy, it just bugs me when people ascribe wierd beliefs to Christians, that we don't hold, and then try to draw conclusions from them.

[Waldszenen]

For all those interested in the 2nd Judgment story thing (evil popes etc) then you'll be interested to know that one of the earliest popes in history was actually Satan in disguise. 

[Daevren]

The fact that those americans believe in the rapture explains how strange they are viewed from european perspective.

The whole rapture thing is a protestant american thing. It does not exist in Europe or anywhere else in the world.

You are kind of missing the point. No one would vote for Bush because he is 'the rapture president' or something. But they fact that they are so fundementalist that they believe in a rapture in their lifetime explains how they think.

I looked up the actual plot of the books. The UN seems to be the tool of power used by the anti christ. If of all those americans that already believe in the rapture and read those books half of them believe that the UN will actually be the way the anti christ will rise to power, consider both Bush and Kerry's views on the UN.
So anyone bringing peace through the UN could be the anti christ and can expect US opposition. Uuh, thats fucked up. We all know the whole rapture thing stopped peace in the middle east, but this goes too far.

[janice]

The whole rapture thing is a protestant american thing. It does not exist in Europe or anywhere else in the world.

I don't think that is an "American" thing.  It's a "Christian" thing, because we read the same Bible that the Europeans read.  Maybe the Europeans emphasize other things.

[BoliverAllmon]

For all those interested in the 2nd Judgment story thing (evil popes etc) then you'll be interested to know that one of the earliest popes in history was actually Satan in disguise. 

I don't think anybody cared to hear this. They like to argue like schoolchildren. I don't know if you were being sarcastic or serious, but am interested. The black pope thing is not a little black pope as in color of skin. he is the real leader of the Catholic church. The pope that we see is just a political figure.

boliver

[janice]

For all those interested in the 2nd Judgment story thing (evil popes etc) then you'll be interested to know that one of the earliest popes in history was actually Satan in disguise. 

There is absolutely NO way that you can know this for a fact!

[dinosaurtales]

not being Catholic I frankly never gave much thought to the pope, but now that he's entered my consciousness I am amazed at what his job really is.  Unlike presidents of individual countries, he is acutally a world leader of a specific "cultural" slice, managing all of the chruches' teachings within the strict standards of the church.  What a job, when you consider more "liberal" countries like in Europe or hte USA, as well as third world countries all have Catholic churches in them!  Tough problem!  Amazing guy!

[mikeyg]

.
Uuh, thats fucked up.

Umm, I'm pretty sure that language isn't really approprate for a thread about the POPE.  Are the filters broken, because that would be pretty ridiculous.  Don't swear, you have been warned.
If you want to rip on Americans. Then go do it in some s**thead European Union forum.  You want to talk about people who are insane over thier religion, then talk about any Islamic country in the world.  Anyone.  But not in this thread, entitled "The Pope"

[dinosaurtales]

Umm, I'm pretty sure that language isn't really approprate for a thread about the POPE.  Are the filters broken, because that would be pretty ridiculous.  Don't swear, you have been warned.
If you want to rip on Americans. Then go do it in some s**thead European Union forum.  You want to talk about people who are insane over thier religion, then talk about any Islamic country in the world.  Anyone.  But not in this thread, entitled "The Pope"

Thank you , mikeyg!

[mikeyg]

No problem.

[Torp]

Umm, I'm pretty sure that language isn't really approprate for a thread about the POPE.  Are the filters broken, because that would be pretty ridiculous.  Don't swear, you have been warned.
If you want to rip on Americans. Then go do it in some s**thead European Union forum.  You want to talk about people who are insane over thier religion, then talk about any Islamic country in the world.  Anyone.  But not in this thread, entitled "The Pope"

I'm pretty sure this language isn't then either.

[mikeyg]

What part.  Seriously, I'm curious.

[Daevren]

Mikeyg, I miss your point.

About the rapture in Europe. It is an american thing. The bible doesn't say there will be something called the rapture. There are things in there that support it but also things that oppose it. The catholic church for example have very different ideas about the end of times and the second comming. There are very little christians in Europe that support the rapture or some other kind of dispensationalism. It has nothing to do with putting emphasis.

[Torp]

What part.  Seriously, I'm curious.

OK, I'll break down what you said and give my perceptions about it.

"Umm, I'm pretty sure that language isn't really approprate for a thread about the POPE."

So far I'm with you, though I don't think it matters that it is a post about the Pope.  I think that language is inappropriate in this forum, period.

"Are the filters broken, because that would be pretty ridiculous.  Don't swear, you have been warned."

The first part of the first sentence I was wondering myself, so no argument from me.  The second part of the first sentence I don't know what you mean.  The second sentence is a threat.  Again, although it doesn't use profanity (which by the way I use all the time in places I think it is warranted), this doesn't strike me as appropriate language in a thread about the death of the Pope if the poster has already implied that some standard does exist to govern the appropriateness of the language used. I don't recall Daevren making threats to anyone in his/her posts.

"If you want to rip on Americans. Then go do it in some s**thead European Union forum."

I believe that most people reading this thread are intelligent enough to fill in the "h and i" in place of the asterisks.  So, unfortunately, you have just done exactly the same thing you're accusing Daevren of doing, using inappropriate language.  Btw, I am an American and I didn't feel that Daevren was ripping on us.  I think he was trying to make an argument that explains why we voted for a president that a lot of countries outside of the US didn't see as the wisest choice.  I took his wording, which you quoted in your post thus giving it even greater weight, to be said more as a casual epithet that two friends might use while talking over a beer.  Your sentence was directed at Daevren with what I perceived to be a much higher level of personal animosity.  Again, I think this level of animosity isn't warranted in any post, but it seems even stranger coming from someone who is telling others not to post that type of language.  In other words, you're undermining your own position by reverting to the standards of communication your trying to protest.

"You want to talk about people who are insane over their religion, then talk about any Islamic country in the world.  Anyone.  But not in this thread, entitled "The Pope""

You believe it IS appropriate to lump all the Islamic countries in the world together and call the people in those countries insane?  I don't think it is/was any more or less appropriate for you to make this statement than any statement Daevren made.

Your post would have had a much greater amount of power if you had simply said.  "Umm, I'm pretty sure that language isn't really appropriate."

Not sure what else I can add.  Hopefully that clarifies what I meant in my other post.

Jef

[Torp]

Mikeyg, I miss your point.

About the rapture in Europe. It is an american thing. The bible doesn't say there will be something called the rapture. There are things in there that support it but also things that oppose it. The catholic church for example have very different ideas about the end of times and the second comming. There are very little christians in Europe that support the rapture or some other kind of dispensationalism. It has nothing to do with putting emphasis.

I believe his point was fairly obvious given his quote of your post.  However, to put words into his mouth, I believe he is saying he feels it is inappropriate to use the type of profanity you used in a post about the pope.

As far as further discussion about the "rapture" why don't you start another thread on it?  There are plenty of people who will be willing to debate that topic with you.

Jef

[Siberian Husky]

you guys are nit picking and disecting eachother's text...how rediculous

its one thing rellaying debateful manifestations...but man you guys sound like kids...

[Daevren]

Well, if you don't think not supporting the UN in matters of international peace because of a fictional book called 'Left Behind' about some theological apocalypse concept.

I was asked to go into detail while my point was, in my opinion, fairly obvious.

I do not seem how some use of 'power language' in a normal post is 'inappropriate use of language'. Blocking peace and international thing is not just a 'not very positive thing', it is a very wrong thing.


I didn't say anything about the Pope, but because of all this commotion I will.

The fact that the Pope spoke against the use of condoms to prevent AIDS and even had his priests lie about it and clain that the HIV virus would go straight to the comdoms is very fucked up. Why? Because millions more people die because of this. And don't give me the 'sexual responsibility' story. I am a non-religious celebate myself. Of course it would be better. But denying condoms kills people and the Pope is responsible for it.

If 'fucked up' isn't appropiate to describe the deaths of thousands or millions, then what word is? You want a nice word instead of a not nice one? I don't think it would be very appropiate had I used 'lovely' instead of 'fucked up'.
 
And someone please explain me the difference between 'fucked up' and 'f*cked up'.

Thank you.

[mikeyg]

OK, I'll break down what you said and give my perceptions about it.

"Umm, I'm pretty sure that language isn't really approprate for a thread about the POPE."

So far I'm with you, though I don't think it matters that it is a post about the Pope.  I think that language is inappropriate in this forum, period.

"Are the filters broken, because that would be pretty ridiculous.  Don't swear, you have been warned."

The first part of the first sentence I was wondering myself, so no argument from me.  The second part of the first sentence I don't know what you mean.  The second sentence is a threat.  Again, although it doesn't use profanity (which by the way I use all the time in places I think it is warranted), this doesn't strike me as appropriate language in a thread about the death of the Pope if the poster has already implied that some standard does exist to govern the appropriateness of the language used. I don't recall Daevren making threats to anyone in his/her posts.

"If you want to rip on Americans. Then go do it in some s**thead European Union forum."

I believe that most people reading this thread are intelligent enough to fill in the "h and i" in place of the asterisks.  So, unfortunately, you have just done exactly the same thing you're accusing Daevren of doing, using inappropriate language.  Btw, I am an American and I didn't feel that Daevren was ripping on us.  I think he was trying to make an argument that explains why we voted for a president that a lot of countries outside of the US didn't see as the wisest choice.  I took his wording, which you quoted in your post thus giving it even greater weight, to be said more as a casual epithet that two friends might use while talking over a beer.  Your sentence was directed at Daevren with what I perceived to be a much higher level of personal animosity.  Again, I think this level of animosity isn't warranted in any post, but it seems even stranger coming from someone who is telling others not to post that type of language.  In other words, you're undermining your own position by reverting to the standards of communication your trying to protest.

"You want to talk about people who are insane over their religion, then talk about any Islamic country in the world.  Anyone.  But not in this thread, entitled "The Pope""

You believe it IS appropriate to lump all the Islamic countries in the world together and call the people in those countries insane?  I don't think it is/was any more or less appropriate for you to make this statement than any statement Daevren made.

Your post would have had a much greater amount of power if you had simply said.  "Umm, I'm pretty sure that language isn't really appropriate."

Not sure what else I can add.  Hopefully that clarifies what I meant in my other post.

Jef

The "you have been warned" means that if he does it again (which he just did) I will contact nils (which I may do).

The comment about the EU is out of my frustration towards their constant animosity of the US (which Daervin fits in wonderfully with).

No, I don't thinkl it is inapropriate to lump all Islamic countries together.  "Find 3 good [Islamic countries] and [I will not rip on them]" (my attempt at scripture)

[mikeyg]

And Daevren, you seem to have alot of pent up anger at not only the US, but christianity in general.  This causes you to say stupid things, ie that the Pope is responsible for the aids epidemic.  Aids is most dominant in Africa, and most of them probably don't even know who the pope is.

By the way, I am a non-believer, yet I can still respect the pope as a great person.

[mikeyg]

I'm unlocking this.

[mikeyg]

Christian mythology goes here: https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,8021.0.html