How do you distinguish between a personal belief in God vs what God really Is?

[m1469]

I apoligize for bringing up another thread about God.  I am not trying to argue anything nor am I trying to stir.  I am asking in earnest.

I have noticed that there are a number of very religious people on the forum here.  I will say that I appreciate people's different perspectives and I often learn form reading your posts.  I am not currently striving to argue for or against the existence of God.  For the sake of this post I would like to start with a premise that God does indeed exist and with that I am wondering something in all earnestness.

How do you know when you are believing in/relying on/accepting God Himself and what S/He really Is, vs a personal conjecture or concept of what S/He is?  How does one distinguish the difference(s)?

I am not even talking about the Bible and whether or not it is the word of God or whether it is simply man's drivel.  I am talking about everyday life.  How do you really know for certain the answers to my questions above?  Even if you feel it within, to me this seems to be a possible aspect of one kind of concept on what it means to believe in/accept/rely on God or Jesus or whatever you may be most comfortable with.


m1469

[Daevren]

There is absolutely no proof for or against the existence of God. Actually it is totally impossible to prove something doesn't exist.


When you ask one that believes why or what they 'know' you make a mistake. They do not know, they believe. Or when they aren't that aware of that fact themselves, they believe they know.

Lets assume God exists. How does he communicate himself to humankind? Well, we have the bible that has been endlessly translated for language to language and from different versions to different versions. It can also be assumed people added, deleted and edited things too.

We have people saying they believe God thinks A and other people that believe God thinks B. Well of course one must be wrong right? Or not? Actually it doesn't matter. The person that is right is right by pure coincidentally.

But lets try and look from Gods position. What can a person do with so little information? Is there a way to know Christ was his true messiah? There is not. This is just a matter of believing. Assuming God is a reasonable being he shouldn't throw people in hell for gambling wrongly on this issue. There are other things a person could be more sure about. Compassion is good, killing is wrong, etc. But things like are we born as sinners because of Adam and Eve?

Churches are very unreasonable. I believe that if God does exist this is pure coincidence. He has no hand in the creation of religion on this earth. This would also make the most sense. He set up an experience. He created an universe with the laws set up in such a way evolution would create men. Then he is going to let them live and after they die they will be judged.

Depending on what he wants to judge humans on it would be smart not to interfer with his experiment. If he wants to test men on superstition and how easy a human starts to believe in him he is doing the right thing. But why would he want to do that? And why would punishment and reward have relevance? Isn't testing how 'good' or 'bad' a human is more important? Or how much they resemble God himself? Or how they compare to his other creations?

Also, assuming the christian situation, don't people being born in a non-christian culture have a huge unfair disadvantage. There are people on this world that live in such remote areas they will never hear about Jesus. It wouldn't be very fair to let them burn in hell for eternity for not accepting Christ as their savior, wouldn't it?

[m1469]

Okay, okay.  Everything you are saying is fine and appropriate.  Let me add a thought-process and consequent question that sprung the two questions above.

Within a scenario that God does exist, and even that God is good (I just have to start somewhere, these are not the issues I am trying to resolve at the moment per se).

I started thinking about this idea of "personal power" which for many people is perhaps a more popular belief than that of God's power.  I started thinking about if God does exist and is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscience, where does personal power fit into all that?

It doesn't seem as though personal power exists within this and I think that regardless of religious beliefs this can create a bunch of possible problems.  There is a need, I think, for every individual to feel a sense of power (this is also stemming from a thread I started about a student of mine in the Teacher's board).

Okay.  So one could say that this personal power and God's power do not have to be discordant, nor does the existence of one have to negate the other.  Next thought/question :

'Is it possible then, to rely too much on God?' 

answer :  If God is good (just a premise) then the answer is no (in my opinion).  BUT ....

It IS possible to rely too much on a mere personal concept of what God is or is not. 

Two reasons...

1.   For those who believe in God and the worshipping of God as all powerful, if they are relying on their personal concept of God rather than on God Him/Herself, they are then worshipping the concept and not the God (and couldn't this be considered a "sin" by these very same people?).  They are believing in a belief, and giving this belief power (without even knowing it, perhaps).

2.  A personal concept may be terribly misguided and lead to very poor judgement


So, next thoughts became what I asked above.  How do you distinguish the difference between something that is simply your own perception and something that is concrete beyond one's perception of it (re-worded)?

If it is not possible to distinguish the difference then essentially, people are not believing in God, they are believing in a perception of God- no matter what.

So if it is possible to distinguish the difference, how do you do it?  Not so much why do you believe (although perhaps they are related)? 


m1469

[Daevren]

There is not a way to differentiate between God and a personal concept one may have of him. In philosophy some people say there is no universal truths and all things are personal concepts.

But do point out a problem there. I should argue that a person should be careful and realise that he or she might be wrong in his idea about what God is an wants. I wonder if this conflicts in some way with the strenght of a persons belief. Because it does question a persons belief. And thus this may result in questioning other aspects of a persons belief. Maybe a 'self defence'-system gets activated when a believer starts to question his or her belief. So it may be very hard for someone to do this. 

This is just the way I view it.

[m1469]

So perhaps one would do better for themselves not to seek the distinction between their perceptions and a possible outside reality.

I should argue that a person should be careful and realise that he or she might be wrong in his idea about what God is an wants.

I agree with this, however, if there is nothing beyond our perception (as you mentioned regarding the philisophical viewpoint) how do we measure what God really is and wants and also, how could we even possibly be wrong if there is no universal truths but only our perception of it?

Logically, I just don't get it 

I just feel like there must be something more because something is not adding up to me

[Daevren]

How does man measure God?

Hmm....

[m1469]

he he... good point 

[lostinidlewonder]

How do you know when you are believing in/relying on/accepting God Himself and what S/He really Is, vs a personal conjecture or concept of what S/He is?  How does one distinguish the difference(s)?

I think this lies right on the line of the eccentric. For those who have a personal concept of what God is does that mean that they go around saying, "This happened to me, it was because of God. Or, what i think comes from God" whatever you can imagine. This I think is a different perspective of what God is to most of us. To most I would think that the concept of God is not even considered because it is beyond our minds reach. For those who believe that it is within our minds reach to totally understand God then they take a path of self worship really because they believe their mind is at equal to God.

To understand is to be at the same level of isnt it? If you understood why Hitler slaughtered Jews then you would be at his level wouldn't you? You may understand his motives, but do you understand the act? No of course not. Same applies for God, do you understand his motives and incorporate that into your life, or do you understand what he really is? To those who understand what he really is they also realise that it is too much to ever realise so it becomes unimportant. Rather the connection with God and the sense of comfort for Life and also an answer to death.

[pianonut]

i once read a book that explained it like this:

while indira ghandi was prime minister of india, someone was visiting the country and noticed cows and oxen wandering through the streets.  "don't these cattle stray quite a distance from home?" "oh, yes," the driver answered. "but when they wander all over the streets so far away, how do their owners find them, to drive them back home for the night?"  the driver smiled and answered, "the owner's don't.  but the cattle and oxen know their owners and where they live.  they find their own way home in the evening."

this could be also said of our own pets, but they don't tend to wander so far.  no matter how far we wander from God, He's always right there.  those who 'walked with God" in the Bible were those that sought Him out (just as m1469 is asking, where is He?  Who is He?)  they probably didn't know any more than anyone else when they were born.  we are taught, but also we learn to seek for things that seem to be missing from our understanding.  Paul noticed the altar with the inscription of the greeks "to the unknown God"  (interesting that although they had many, they also added this one).  (Acts 17:18-19, 22-26, 28)

Romans 8:7 says the natural mind is hostile against God.  if we are agreeable to the idea, that means that we are learning that there is a power over us that is greater.  this is hard for some to accept, even though they cannot change the fact.  Isa. 40:25-26 quotes God himself, "lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things, that bring their host by number (stars): he calls them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that He is strong in power..."

Many astronomers, physicists, and scientists are not disbelievers.  they just do not fully understand.  it is something that is only understood 'by faith.'  James 2:23 says "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."  So, if you first seek (looking for God) you will find Him.  He doesn't force you to do anything.  But, His spirit IS power.  Not power for selfish acts, but power for good.  "God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble." 

i would admit that there are many christians who are still proud.  this is our doing, and not God's.  if we were full of His spirit, we would be pretty selfless, considering our Saviour died for us (so we should be willing to die for others).  It is interesting that even our calendar recalls the BC and AD of that momentous occasion.  It must have been important enough at the time, for people to record it and consent to changing the calendar.  (even if it is off a year or two or three).

James 3:13 says "who is wise and understanding among you?  let him show by good conduct that his works are done in meekness and of wisdom...the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy, and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy...the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace." 

 

[lagin]

Let me ask you a question, m1469.  I'm really not trying to be sarcastic.  If you think about the question long enough, it is quite thought provoking.  I'm aware that this isn't exactly referring to your original question, but it's interesting none the less.

Can you prove to me that you exist?  Can I prove to you that I exist?

It's a very good question you asked, m1469!  Okay, let's just assume that God does exist.  Then how would we know what He is really like?  How do we know that we aren't just believing in someone's interpretation of something?  How on earth do we know that we even "picked the right one!"  You know, I asked the very same questions myself about eight years ago.  The only way I personally (not starting something here) know what He's like is by... (PLEASE FORGIVE THE "RELIGIOUS' LINGO), ...having a personal relationship with Him.  He's proven Himself over and over and over to me.  I can't make you believe or disbelieve.  That's something you have to decide on your own.  Did I help or make more confusion?

[pianonut]

yes, lagin is so right.  many people come to God through very different ways.  some, like myself, through disbelief first.  my parents were God-fearing, but I didn't really see the point of sitting in church (even though i went- and probably believe today because i heard the Bible).  anyway, so you don't think it's just learning dogma...i was dating a non-christian and enjoying my freedom (i thought) until several incidents.  one was out cross country skiing.  we had gone about an hour in (toward mountains) and were coming back out.  the sun started going down and it was getting cold (like 10 above).  i remember partly with humor and partly with fear myboyfriend saying his 'you know what' was getting frozen.  my fingers felt the same.  i knew if we weren't rescued we were going to have some serious frostbite or serious problems if we stopped moving.  i prayed (not the first time, but one of several times) and i don't recall if i said i would believe in God if He helped me, but was probably thinking it.  anyway, two snow machiners suddenly appeared (which happened to have tow-lines!) and towed us both out.

sadly, i forgot my prayer.  then, my boyfriend and i were up on the mountain with his bald tired car.  we started sliding down (toward an overhang - trees and boulders) and he let the car spin around - he was a good driver, but it was icy- we were heading backwards down the hill.  oh, fun. now you could say this was stupid (and why would God help stupid teenagers).  well, those are exactly the ones He helps, too, because He knows what stage we are at in life.  somehow the car turned around again without going off the 'cliff.'

again, i forgot my prayers.  and, with the same boyfriend, almost had a head on car accident.  i shut my eyes as the headlights came toward us, and prayed (God, i will choose to believe you, and i will not date anyone who is not a christian anymore - or something like that).  somehow, when i opened my eyes the car had gone by.  i still don't know really what happened.  thankfully, my boyfriend hadn't shut his, but i don't think he really knew what happened either (because i asked him and he didn't have an explaination).  i'm not saying that an unbeliever and a believer can't be close, it's just that it's much harder.  you believe two different things and your children will be confused.  i think it's better to believe one way or the other, and have a spouse that agrees.  my boyfriend and i agreed to disagree and remained friends until he went to college and met someone else.  later, when i met my husband, i could understand why i had to wait.

there have been many other things in my life that are somewhat unexplainable.  i don't think i'm any more spritual than anyone else, but i do notice things.  praying for healing, monetary help (when down and not just wanting stuff), understanding, help in anything...and usually get it.  God is quick to hear and slow to judge us.  The older you get the more you think you have problems.  well, it's just those problems that God wants to help.  not just forgiveness but also love.  He calls himself a Father, because he protects us like a Father.  And, even if we are in a car accident or something, if He allows us to survive (which often happens with people who pray) we may live our life differently afterwards (surviving death).

i don't understand many things about God.  I wonder if He is anxious to reveal Himself very soon!  I hope so, because our world is so messed up.  There are so many people sufferring.  one person or even one group can't help whole countries and places that are sufferring.  we don't understand the sufferring. we don't understand His mercy until we see it.  I believe in the second coming of Jesus Christ.  I believe it may happen soon, (or may not).  We are told to 'be ready.'  that would mean that we should not be caught up 'in the affairs of this life' (money, sex, power) but be thinking about deeper things and maintaining a relationship with Him so that He knows us (by name)when He returns.  Of course, He already knows us, but he says "call upon Him while He is near."  (not just in a catastrophe) 

[timothy42b]

m1469,

I think this is one of the two great religious mysteries, the other being the problem of evil. 

People who are very sure they understand the nature of God are generally remaking him in their own image.  The Bible says man was created in God's image, but it is more common for us to do it the other way around.  Most people's image of God is simply a human with fewer limitations.  Curiously, the more fundamentalist you are, the more so this is true. 

If God really exists, our definition of God is by nature wrong. 

How far wrong is the question. 

And how to get closer without going down some wrong path is the problem. 

I have an artifical parameter which I cannot support with data or logic, but makes a useful rule-of-thumb.  Paths that lead to hatred, intolerance, bigotry, and violence are by definition wrong.  Paths that lead to inclusion, compassion, tolerance, loving wastefully (Spong's phrase, but it seems so apt) are by definition right. 

If God does not exist, then my definition is as good as any.  If he does exist, there is no reason to believe he must conform to my image of him.  All that I have is hope.  And faith. 

In the end, I think one must make a choice and live by it.  Or, abandon choice, thought, and free will, and slavishly follow the sermons you hear preached and one particular interpretation of the Bible.  Not a good option for some of us. 

[Derek]

Here is how I distinguish between personal belief and what/who God really is:

Let me first define personal belief as either religion, spirituality, or a combination thereof, each with an aim at acknolwedging the mystery of the universe but still with an overall assumption that there is a such thing as absolute Truth. (or God as religious types like to name him..I am one of these)

I believe that nearly all mythology and religion represent "glimmers of truth upon the human imagination." Rather than assert one particular belief has a monopoly on all Truth, we now have the possibility that some creeds or faiths or perhaps even individuals may land closer to the truth than others. This, then, would be consistent with the "coincidences" mentioned above, whenever a religion or set of ethics or individual seems to apprehend a great deal of Truth about the universe.

I do not find it productive to sit around thinking about how wrong everyone else is. This is not inconsistent, I don't think, with believing that one's own religion or way of thinking is closer to the Truth than others.

For me, the bottom line is: What way of thinking makes me happier and gives me comfort that our lives are not accidents and that we will see our loved ones again? The only religion that has provided this for me is Christianity. I believe many others could provide the same things: however I grew up in Western culture and was surrounded with Christian literature so it seems only natural to adopt it. I don't think God himself really cares whether I became a Christian or not, though I think he may be glad.

[Floristan]

m1469,
I have an artifical parameter which I cannot support with data or logic, but makes a useful rule-of-thumb. Paths that lead to hatred, intolerance, bigotry, and violence are by definition wrong. Paths that lead to inclusion, compassion, tolerance, loving wastefully (Spong's phrase, but it seems so apt) are by definition right.

If God does not exist, then my definition is as good as any. If he does exist, there is no reason to believe he must conform to my image of him. All that I have is hope. And faith.

In the end, I think one must make a choice and live by it. Or, abandon choice, thought, and free will, and slavishly follow the sermons you hear preached and one particular interpretation of the Bible. Not a good option for some of us.

Well said, Tim!

I was an unbeliever for a long time, and during that time. my life went in many destructive directions.  I railed against the world and other people, blaming everyone but myself for my unhappiness.  I certainly was not expecting what then happened to me.  One night when I was at a particularly low point, I had the sensation of leaving my body for a split second and standing on the other side of the room watching myself.  In that second or less, I knew I was destroying myself, that no one or nothing else was to blame, that I needed help, and specifically where to find that help.  BAM.  It was like being slapped along side the head by God.  I didn't think that at the time, only later after I had sought help and found myself having to confront not just the physical and psychological mess of my life, but the spiritual bankruptcy I had driven myself into.  I had to admit that I had done a terrible job of running my own life and that maybe, just maybe, there was a power greater than myself with whom I could align myself, and that doing so would restore my life to sanity.    I had to quit trying to be my own god, because as gods go, I was pretty bad at it! 

I didn't start believing in God overnight.  It happened gradually.  It happened because I saw God working through other people, people whose only interest in me was to help me and who believed that helping me was the best way to help themselves.  While this may not be the totally selfless caring of a Mother Theresa, it was the first time I had been the object of selfless love since childhood.  It's a powerful experience and was the beginning of my spiritual journey, which is ongoing.

None of this occurred within the context of organized religion, and I don't identify with any organized religion.  I experience God and lead a spiritual life outside the confines of organized religion.  Nor do I think one needs sink into despair to know God, though that is what happened to me.   I even think it's possible to understand one's powerlessness over people, places, and things and have a humble view of oneself vis-a-vis the world without positing God.  I don't even think that believing in God is necessary to understand that selfless acts of kindness are better than selfish acts of mean-spiritedness.  My personal experience is that I came to understand these things as I found my God.

As to knowing God, which started this thread...for me it's not about knowing as I know things intellectually.  Rather it's about seeing how my life changes for the better when I align myself with God's will rather than my will.  Some have said here that they are happy because they found God.  For me it's not so much a matter of happiness as it is of peace and serenity.  That is how I know God is there in my life.  When I lose peace and serenity, I know that I have abandoned God again.  Saying "Thy will not mine be done" always seemed like resignation to me before -- resignation that the world would always be filled with pain and suffering and that it was beyond me to understand it or do anything about it.  Now I think, yes, I'll never understand it, but I came to see that I could do some very small thing about the world's suffering.  I could quit contributing to the misery and making it worse, for starters, I could control my own behavior (but no one else's), and I could start making a positive contribution, however small, however seemingly insignificant.  I could start destroying karma rather than creating it. 

This is just my experience. 

[ted]

Surely Derek has come up with the punch line here. If you embrace a belief which makes you happier, more content in yourself, leads you to behave in a kind and compassionate way toward creatures capable of feeling pain, and provides a stable base for the psyche and a healthy perception of the universe, gives your life a positive direction – then however fanciful the belief in the logical sense, it must surely be seen as good, at least for the individual holding it.

On the other hand, if a belief leads to anxiety, fear and hatred, if it induces unease and crisis in the psyche because of logical or emotional conflict and inconsistency, and leads its holders to hurt other living creatures, then I should have no hesitation in avoiding such a belief.

Speaking for myself, I have never found it necessary to embrace any beliefs at all in order to direct myself toward the above-mentioned positive ends. I have had bucketloads of mystical and inexplicable experiences of the type described by Floristan over the years. They have the potential to be life-changing and I value them very highly, as I do dreams and visions of every type but I have no urge to make sense of them by constructing a religion out of them or by aligning them with any existing religious structure. I tend to agree with Huxley and Jung, who saw them as being at the core of all religious experience.

So for me the word “God” isn’t terribly meaningful, at least not in the sense most people seem to use it. I suppose I could use it to mean the totality of my mystical experience, but why bother when less ambiguous and certainly less inflammatory terms exist ?

[m1469]

Dear people,

I have realized some "very big" things upon reading and thinking about your posts :  Some of my biggest and most tormenting questions about life do not have answers in the way I had outlined they would  , mainly because I have questioned under the impression of a false premise.   It is a waste of time to ask and look for any answer beyond this.  Right now I am realizing/glimpsing a need to make a shift in how I approach certain issues about life.

I think I can accept that certain questions as they may stand, don't have answers as such.  But there is a need to change the question and accept a different answer.  This is actually seemingly life changing for me.

People have tried to help me see this before and I am reminded of that now.  For some reason I see it the most clearly after having read your posts.

Thank you, 

m1469

[Torp]

So for me the word “God” isn’t terribly meaningful, at least not in the sense most people seem to use it. I suppose I could use it to mean the totality of my mystical experience, but why bother when less ambiguous and certainly less inflammatory terms exist ?

You have just summed up in one paragraph what I have been trying to express for over 20 years.  You should know that I am now going to plagarize this shamelessly in all my future conversations.

Some of my biggest and most tormenting questions about life do not have answers in the way I had outlined they would.

Asking the "right" questions is always very important.  However, I have also found that I often don't have the right questions until long after the answer has been found.

Jef

[ted]

Oh, thank you Jef, that is a very nice compliment. Feel free to quote me as often as required.

[Torp]

Oh, thank you Jef, that is a very nice compliment. Feel free to quote me as often as required.

Thanks, I will.

[m1469]

Did I help or make more confusion?

Help 

[ted]

In my case, rather obviously neither, but I'm such an oddball that this is probably scant reassurance for you. The prosaic truth is that my piano action is being completely rebuilt and having no instrument I have been wandering into other wards of the asylum .... so to speak....as it were....

[Torp]

........., the other being the problem of evil. 

I hope I'm not hijacking the thread by wondering further about this.  If I am, let me know and we can create a new topic if there's any interest.  I also don't know if what I'm going to say here has anything to do with what TimR was thinking in his post.  Anyway:

When I was younger, much younger, I started to read the bible.  As I read the first few verses of the creation story I was overcome by a thought, "Where did evil come from?"

My struggle was, IF god created everything, AND, as the bible says, it was all good, then doesn't deductive reasoning suggest that evil is good.

If god did not create evil, then where did it come from?  Who created it?  Does that mean that there is some other higher power that as equal creation abilities along with god?  Why would god allow that?  If god allowed it, in his "complete" wisdom, knowing that it serves some greater purpose, then ultimately doesn't that then mean that it is good, since god can only do good?

On a lighter note, I've also wondered about god's planning abilities.  On day one he separates light from dark, but doesn't create the sun until day 4?  If the sun wasn't creating the light on day one, what was?  Where is that light source now?

My father was going to seminary at the time so we used to discuss these and other thoughts at length.  He'd then take these same questions to his university and discuss them there with the professors.  I never did get any satisfactory answers to the above line of questioning then.  Maybe I'll have better luck on a piano forum

Jef

[m1469]

No you are not hijacking this thread, though with this subject it is very possible it will happen, so I hope people can respect what has already begun.

These are the exact things I was talking about.  And the existence of "evil".... etc.

I have been thinking for some years about all of this.  Some of it for my entire conscious life.  I have been looking for reasons behind "evil" in efforts to make it disappear.  To change it or at least to counteract it. 

I have also been thinking a lot about human reasoning and perception, as reflected in my initial questions (which were a reslult of this thinking).  And discovering its inadequacies in breadth to explain most phenomena in existence.  Human reasoning cannot explain nor reason out that which is considered "good" either (man, now I am thinking even deeper on this... curses).

There are two main things that have struck me with regard to all of this.

On one level, the human level that wishes to reason everything out, I realized that "evil" will never get reasoned out.  There is no true reasoning behind it.  People can psycho analyze and say this event or emotion caused this person to do this thing... and so on... but this does not explain the "possiblity" of a "wrong" act and it's possibilities of being thought out.

So, looking for the answer as to why or what purpose through human reasoning, I will NEVER find an answer which puts to rest the need to question.  Not because there is one that I am simply not capable of achieving, but because there is not an answer to these questions of which human reasoning can satisfactorally attain. 

This is the most satisfactory answer in terms of human reasoning that I have found, after spending a good portion of my life's energy looking for the answers  (curses, again).


So, step number two for me is to change my course.  And in this case, it is my life's course.  The course which I thought was fundamental in me (curses, curses... kicks the dirt... sees a lizard.. runs to the lizard... catches it and brings it home  ).  This will, by necessity,  include new questions.

Okay, please be gentle people.  This was all very hard to put into words.  Anyway, Jef, you stirred me and I had to respond.

m1469

[Torp]

I have been looking for reasons behind "evil" in efforts to make it disappear.

Human reasoning cannot explain nor reason out that which is considered "good" either (man, now I am thinking even deeper on this... curses).

So, looking for the answer as to why or what purpose through human reasoning, I will NEVER find an answer which puts to rest the need to question.

Humans have probably been searching for 'reasons' since they became cognizant.  This search for reason has led to at least two very significant schools of thought, religion and science.  These schools of thought are very similar in that they attempt to explain how and why things happen.  Where these schools of thought diverge is that, for many, the explanations of science are always followed by more in-depth questioning and searching with an aim towards predictable, repeatable results.  In other words, answers lead to questions.  Religions also attempt to explain how and why things happen.  Just like there are many branches of science there are many branches of religion.  These branches, at least to me, are fascinating and beautiful with more in common than all the supposed differences.  In most cases I find that religious beliefs are a repository of a people's history; and, perhaps more importantly, a record of their relationship with the world.  It's a way for them to make sense out of things that make no sense.  Unfortunately, my own personal journey has shown that a good number of religions provide an answer that you either have to accept or suffer the consequences.  Something along the lines of a bumper sticker that I saw once that said, "God did, the bible says, that's it."

There are things in this world and universe I cannot explain.  For some, they gain comfort and understanding through their belief and faith that a higher power has all those answers and is in charge.  For me, I gain neither of those things when I contemplate a sentient higher power.  I certainly don't stop asking why though.  That is half the fun of life, watching the answers change.

So, step number two for me is to change my course.  And in this case, it is my life's course.  The course which I thought was fundamental in me (curses, curses... kicks the dirt... sees a lizard.. runs to the lizard... catches it and brings it home  ).  This will, by necessity,  include new questions.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with changing your life's course.  Rather than cursing and and kicking the dirt, grab a handful of it, throw it into the wind and see which way it blows, then follow it, or don't, go right, go left, or stay where you are.  In the end, it is not the path that matters but rather the traveller.

btw, perception can explain everything....for you.  Or it can explain everything for me, or for just about any individual.  The problem with perceptions (and the benefit) is that they are unique.  This is why we end up with heated discussions about the difficulty of specific pieces of piano repertoire, etc.

Jef

[m1469]

Well, okay.  Let me ponder a bit and take a couple steps in some direction.  Thank you very much.

m1469

[m1469]

For some, they gain comfort and understanding through their belief and faith that a higher power has all those answers and is in charge.  For me, I gain neither of those things when I contemplate a sentient higher power.

By the way, I find it quite interesting that you say a sentient higher power.  I suppose I agree with this, that I find neither comfort nor understanding in this.  Though, I am not sure as to exactly why that is....   

m1469

[ted]

m1469, it occurs to me you might like the essays of Lloyd Geering, the new Zealand theologian, now professor of religious studies at Victoria University. He has written excellent books outlining his own consistent reconciliation of all these matters. "In the World Today", "Tomorrow's God", "Christianity Without God" and many more are well worth reading - he's a very clever man. They won't appeal to the reader who isn't broadminded though.

[Torp]

m1469, it occurs to me you might like the essays of Lloyd Geering, the new Zealand theologian, now professor of religious studies at Victoria University. He has written excellent books outlining his own consistent reconciliation of all these matters. "In the World Today", "Tomorrow's God", "Christianity Without God" and many more are well worth reading - he's a very clever man. They won't appeal to the reader who isn't broadminded though.

Just looked these up on Amazon, they sound fascinating.  Thanks for the tip.

Jef

[m1469]

Why, thank you kindly Sir

(*tips brim of cowgirl hat and spits...* spurs jingle as she walks her way... he he)

[outsyde yn]

I know when God is in my life because i can see Him and hear Him.

bye,
Clair

[timothy42b]

Ah, science and religion.  I think the purposes get confused.

Historically, at one time the purposes were similar.  With literal understanding of the natural processes, science WAS religion.  Angels bowling as an explanation for thunder was fine.  Mythology met our needs for certainty about a mysterious world.

Now, except for a few super literal fundamentalists, the world is a bit less mysterious.  Science has taken the problems of knowing the material world farther than could ever have been expected.  And yes, this leads to some conflicts with the Bible, which are unresolvable if you consider the Bible a science text. 

So what should the purpose of religion be?  I think it is very simple.  It should supply us the direction and strength to live a just and moral life.  There are certainly other paths to such a life, but some of us choose a religious path to do so. 

[m1469]

Well, I suppose what I consider to be the biggest descrepencies between science and much religious "belief" is that of mentality.

Along the lines of what Jef mentioned above

Where these schools of thought diverge is that, for many, the explanations of science are always followed by more in-depth questioning and searching with an aim towards predictable, repeatable results.  In other words, answers lead to questions.  Religions also attempt to explain how and why things happen.

I would say it is important to distinguish (I am connecting some thoughts in my mind, not trying to put words into Jef's mouth) that it is not so much the religion itself necessarily, which stunts the questioning mind, but more the mentality that may be involved.  When an individual stops questioning, and I personally think there will always be deeper questions at least within the so called human existence, then in many ways one stunts their own conscious growth as an individual. 

I can appreciate the mentality of seeking for newness within many scientific minds.  Though, I again would like to make the distinction that it is not even necessarily the content of each discovery that I respect, but the mentality that discovered it. 
There are some big generalizations here.  But my main point is that I think it is indeed possible to reconcile spirituality and science to a degree, within the mentality(s) of the individual.  Religionists can ask questions of the bible with a scientific mentality, and scientists can ask questions of science with a spiritual mentality.

Please, let me note that I think this thread is thus far extremely useful, at least for me.  There are already plenty of threads with much quoting and arguing over these things.  I am sincerely trying to reach/dig somewhere else without striving to prove anyone to be wrong or right.

Please, continue to read carefully what has been shared within this thread, I think the intentions are positive here.

m1469

[pianonut]

dear Torp,

because i'm thinking about your question first, i'll answer it (in my understanding) from the bible itself.  then go on to some of mayla's questions/ideas.  in rev. 22:5 it says "and there shall no longer be any night; and they shall not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the SUN, because the Lord God shall illuminate them..."  This must have been what it was like in the beginning, too.  For those that believe the bible is true, that would be an explaination.

as far as evil.  evil and good are opposites - so sometimes i think it is something lost in 'translation.'  we know from james 3:14 that 'this wisdom (evil) is not that which comes down from above (God) but is earthly, natural,demonic.  For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing."

So, in Jude, when we realize that Satan and his demons were cast down to the earth before man was created...that explains some of it.  God destroyed anything they created because it was 'evil.'  II Peter 3:5-6 explains what happened BEFORE creation.  "it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and th earth was formed OUT OF WATER (it was what the Spirit of God was moving over in Gen. 1:2) and by water, through which the world at that TIME was destroyed, being flooded with water.  For people like me, i believe this was the prehistoric age documented by God himself.  Jude 6 says "and angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode (with God- and left), He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgement of the great day.

To make this short - and not an extended essay or sermon - i would say to m1469 to just consider all the various options of action (as you already are). there are many days i feel like cursing too.  We sometimes curse ourselves by our own actions.  I don't always even treat my family members as i should, and am harder on them than myself (sometimes).  Women have so much stress in their lives already, it might be the doorbell that sets me off (STOP RINGING THE DOORBELL!!!!!!!)  I've never kicked the cat but lizards actually sound interesting to keep as pets to humor one on a bad day.  just realizing that being green isn't always bad.  i think if God meant for us to be perfect without Him, he would have made us that way.  So, as you say, if we learn to control impulses and change direction of things in our life - we might end up being the vice-president of manhattan bank.  (or, for me, simply a better mother). 

[m1469]

I have known of the Bible for all of my life.  There are things that I have enjoyed about it, things I have questioned, things I don't understand and cannot explain.
Along the lines of what we are discussing, I will say that what has genuinely struck me within the Bible are some of the teachings of Jesus and the results these teachings have produced.  I am genuinely struck by the story (whether true or not is not my concern at this point) of Jesus rising from the grave.  Without getting into everything I believe, I would like to comment further on this and try to tie together some of my other statements from above.

Jesus told his disciples to go and do likewise (something like this).  I am striving to approach this with the mind of a scientist (at least my own concept of what that is), and I have to ask myself ...how?  How does one go and do likewise?

(Sometimes I feel that this gets forgotten or overlooked by many people)

If it is possible, then there must be a principle involved beyond Jesus himself which anyone can prove.  If the Bible is just a story, or if it is not, perhaps the principles are still discernable and proveable, and proof in my book is some form of evidence within our very lives.

This is my main thrust of my study in life.  As some form of being a "scientist", I want evidence.  As an individual who accepts there being more to existence than physicality, or at least what physicality seems to be, I am willing to approach from outside the box of what I understand to be physicality.

I will note that, I personally believe science will find any answer there is to be found, it is only a matter of time (and funding, resources, etc).  So my point is that I am not trying to diverge from science at all, if anything I embrace the mentality, but I am trying to approach existence from a number of different angles.  So I am willing to look at what principles may be found in any book, including the Bible.

Again, I am simply digging now.

m1469

[Floristan]

m1469, it occurs to me you might like the essays of Lloyd Geering, the new Zealand theologian, now professor of religious studies at Victoria University. He has written excellent books outlining his own consistent reconciliation of all these matters. "In the World Today", "Tomorrow's God", "Christianity Without God" and many more are well worth reading - he's a very clever man. They won't appeal to the reader who isn't broadminded though.

Ted.  I just wanted to thank you for this post...Lloyd Geering sounds like a very interesting fellow, and I will look into his writings soon.

m1469.  I'm not sure I understand your quest, but a quest is always a good thing!  The most amazing things happen along the way.

What exactly are you looking for "proof" of?  You speak of evil and resurrection and how the deciples could emulate Jesus, so I see many swirling thoughts, but it's difficult to know what to respond to.

Scientists do not accept experience by itself as proof.  Typically they observe phenomena over and over and try to find patterns that explain the phenomena, then see if those patterns (hypotheses) are replicable and predictive.  Detached observation is the core of science. 

Spiritual life is experential and by its nature unobservable.  Oh, one can see that a person is sitting cross-legged and meditating, and one can then observe that person's state after meditation.  This could go on for years with many observations of many meditators.  Tests could be given to measure biometrics, say.  Heart rate is lower, breathing regular, subject reports sense of calm and peace, etc.  I'm sure meditation has been investigated scientifically from every conceivable angle, and yet none of it tells what is essential, which is the experience of it and how it can completely alter one's attitudes toward everything.  I would guess all forms of religious experience can produce these changes, each in it's own way.

Soto zen master Suzuki made it clear that opening oneself to direct contact with the world unmediated by the critical mind requires rigorous, disciplined application of zazen and yet, some get it with little or no meditating.  The point being it's experential, hopefully aided by sitting in zazen, but zazen isn't required.  Becoming one with the world in the present moment is enlightenment, which makes all clear as it raises one's awareness to a level where issues like good and evil are on a lower plane, or at least subsumed by the awareness that comes of how it all is everything and nothing.

But this is zen.  Other approaches have other ways, but most make experience central to understanding and accepting.  Christians pray to understand God and accept his will, but many believe it is not until you have the experience of the Holy Spirit inside you that you "get it" (like the apostles did) and can then pass it on.

Judaism is a religion of tradition, and in enacting these traditions, jews feel connected back to the beginning of time.  Jewish scholars argue endlessly but joyfully about what God intended in a word or phrase in Hebrew.  The annotated Torah contains a small square of the original text surrounded with centuries of commentary of every kind, showing a people who appear comfortable embracing their not-knowingness even as they strive to know. 

Most spiritual endeavor I've encountered has concerned coming to terms with the not-knowingness of the universe -- that we strive to know and so make strides with the intellect but are still bedeviled by our moral and immoral natures.  That there are no answers is a good thing.  We are mere humans, not gods or God.  The answers to much is beyond our ken, but it is not beyond experential possibility to know in your soul or gut or wherever you locate your spiritual self that you can connect, albeit briefly for most of us, with the Great Soul or the Collective Unconscious or whatever you want to call it.  And when it happens, it's like putting one's little finger through to this other level and saying "aaah! yes!"  Sometimes it happens when you work for it through disciplined meditation, prayer, devotion to ritual, etc. and sometimes it just happens. 

Not sure I'm making a lot of sense, but hope it's in the general direction you're investigating.

[m1469]

m1469.  I'm not sure I understand your quest, but a quest is always a good thing!  The most amazing things happen along the way.

What exactly are you looking for "proof" of?  You speak of evil and resurrection and how the deciples could emulate Jesus, so I see many swirling thoughts, but it's difficult to know what to respond to.

yeah, no worries.  Thanks for your helpful response.

[ted]

Floristan has put his finger on the central issue here. Mystical experience cannot be communicated using syntactical means from one person to another. Attempts to do so invariably result in the use of words such as “God”, “Nirvana”, “divine ground”, “clear light of the void”, “suchness” and many more terms which, while clear as crystal to their originators, communicate nothing at all of the essential experience.

A tragedy of recent decades is that, with the rise of scientific rationalism, those for whom religious experience was simply a set of unquestioned beliefs, rules and rituals have been left in a limbo. They have never actively pursued direct contact with mystical experience and, at the same time, their strengthening rationality has more or less demolished their previous religious handholds. As Jung observed many years ago, the number of middle-aged people particularly in this sad state has increased dramatically.

But, as Floristan implicitly asks, how on earth can somebody open what Huxley called their “doors of perception” ? Well, I think the first step might be to follow J.B. Priestley’s advice and begin paying attention to thoughts and states of mind we have hitherto been accustomed to nipping in the bud with our conscious rationality. We can try to steer clear of the poles of “nothing but” scientific rationality and knee-jerk religious dogmas of the past. Both these reactions are poisonous to any real perception of “what’s what”.

A way I have found personally to be very effective is to begin loving the ordinary. “The body of the Buddha is the hedge at the bottom of the garden”. Again this is supremely difficult for many of us because we are taught from an early age to worship the extraordinary and to adulate communicable, external standards of beauty.

Another way, of course, is through art, in our case music. But even this requires getting into the habit of paying attention to the internal reaction to our own sounds rather than those aspects of them which are communicable and easily described and numbered. Again, this is not easy for somebody nurtured on musical structures and external effects.

Actually we do not have to do anything at all to get anywhere because, if we only knew it, we are already there. The trick lies in finding ways of knowing it. 

[m1469]

much appreciated.  thinking.

[pianonut]

dear m1469,

i can't help but respond one more time!  i believe, like many others, that science and religion are not at odds.  it is not negating one for the other.  as you say, you like to see christians actually follow Christ and not just blindly follow one another (as cults).  there are many scriptures in the bible that point to the Holy Spirit as being what people need to attain Christ's level of spirituality.  We can 'be nice' and thoughtful of our neighbors, we can 'share' (as everything we really need to know IS probably taught in kindergarten), but there is one thing missing...are we pleasing to God?  if we just please each other we aren't really counting the 'cost' of discipleship.  there is a cost involved.  that is sacrificing our wants and needs for others (not just physically) by asking God daily for help to do whatever it is that He wants us to do.  we don't have to know the Bible backwards and forwards (although it is helpful) but we do need the holy spirit to teach us.  luke 12:12 "for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say."  This kind of help is 'awesome' and when you experience it, even in a small way...it is like hearing beautiful music and getting a shiver down your spine.  you don't necessarily hear voices per se, but you get the sense that when you pray for help, you have a Father who hears and provides an answer to whatever you are seeking.  You cannot get this from science.  Good is not scientific.  But, the consequences are!  so is Evil.  You can see that they are opposites in what each (observably) obtains.  One has God's favor and is BLESSED, the other is not and is CURSED.  one is life, and the other ends in death.  our potential and possibility with God is endless.  that's why Satan (also unobservable by science - as he is spirit, made as an angel) is jealous of us.  he didn't obtain what we might and knows that only for now, we are 'a little lower than the angels.' 

Milton's 'paradise lost' may be a bit of speculation, but was written during a time when monarchs were losing favor and people were even wondering about the power the Church had over people and doctrine.  He speculates that in the original state (which it is implied) that death would not have been tied to sin and sex together.  am doing a short summary of the duet between adam and eve (and chorus) 'by thee with bliss.'  when all of creation was made, adam and eve first praised God for everthing created (including each other) and then promptly made love.  this was before the fall and before each other knew about the deception Satan had in mind.  if Cain was in the womb--this explains the 'type' of people :  one under sin and bondage, another free and not tied to physical death.  even though adam and eve were banished.  they repented of their sin and were forgiven and granted another son.  the effects of what we do are often generated down - and some families seem perpetually cursed while others (who do right) are blessed.

many people today, because of this being so MANY generations from creation have 'family histories' that they have to deal with and overcome.  from my personal observation, the psychology classes, psychologists, and people who deal mostly from a point of scientific observation SHOULD start analyzing lives of christians vs non-believers.  sometimes people are advised to divorce, to sue, to get back at someone and would not be given this advise by a christian psychologist or counselor (most of the time).  the difference in the advice is FORGIVENESS.  this is the core of what Jesus taught his disciples.  this is a spiritual attribute and is not observable at the beginning because it starts in the mind.  but, usually there is a peace that you can observe in christians because they don't worry so much about getting even, getting what's due.  they just pray.  leaving most of their deepest worries to God.  thus, getting better sleep.  and, when facing difficult situation- take their time to hear God's reply to any one of a number of situations.  i think christians face every single problem everyone else does.  it is simply their reaction that is different (or should be).   

[pianowelsh]

By what he tells us about himself in his word!!!!