Does anyone not like Chopin?

[notsoperfectpitch]

I mean, don't get me wrong, Chopin certainly has some great music full of technical and emotional content, but i find a lot of his music to be too ostentatious and "blurry."  It's hard to describe but Chopin has a certain "sound" that can be easily spotted if you never heard one of his pieces before.  I listen to his music and I usually am unaffected by them despite technical brilliance.   Even the simple Bach Inventions at their best have more of an emotional impact on me.   Of course it's just a matter of opinion, but I was curious if anyone else shared the same thoughts.  I guess an easier way to put this is that I would rather pick up a Beethoven or Schubert piano work than a Chopin work.    

[Rach3]

Grow up.

-Rach3

[mikeyg]

I mean, don't get me wrong, Chopin certainly has some great music full of technical and emotional content, but i find a lot of his music to be too ostentatious and "blurry."  It's hard to describe but Chopin has a certain "sound" that can be easily spotted if you never heard one of his pieces before.  I listen to his music and I usually am unaffected by them despite technical brilliance.   Even the simple Bach Inventions at their best have more of an emotional impact on me.   Of course it's just a matter of opinion, but I was curious if anyone else shared the same thoughts.  I guess an easier way to put this is that I would rather pick up a Beethoven or Schubert piano work than a Chopin work.   

Try listenening to a ballade, or scherzo, or a prelude, or just shut the f*** up.

[JCarey]

I will be completely honest. Generally, I don't like Chopin's music. I think it has too much repetition, is uncomfortable to play, and the melodies are often uninteresting and underdeveloped. Frankly, I much prefer the music of Leopold Godowsky to Chopin.

Rach3 - Why would you say that? Isn't that a bit uncalled for? Should his opinion not be respected in the same way as someone else's who likes Chopin? That doesn't make much sense.

Try listenening to a ballade, or scherzo, or a prelude, or just shut the f*** up.

If this is the type of reply we can expect to typically see in this forum, perhaps I should delete my account. There seems to be more spam/pointless posts now then there ever was! (Sorry MikeyG...)

[notsoperfectpitch]

I don't understand the need for hostility in the replies.  It is purely matter of opinion.  I know most people LOVE Chopin, i personally do not.  

[JCarey]

I don't understand the need for hostility in the replies.  It is purely matter of opinion.  I know most people LOVE Chopin, i personally do not.  

Yes, unfortunately many on this forum are not open to opinions differing from their own. It has been this way for quite some time, but this is the first time I have seen a thread that recieves two negative comments right away on a matter that is entirely based on opinion and individual taste.

Ignore them, that is my suggestion.

[Rach3]

It's fine with me if you prefer Beethoven to Chopin, or if you feel that Bach was slightly greater than Mozart, or whatnot. I personally don't understand why on earth people would want to make such comparisons.

[JCarey]

It's fine with me if you prefer Beethoven to Chopin, or if you feel that Bach was slightly greater than Mozart, or whatnot. I personally don't understand why on earth people would want to make such comparisons.

Why, then, would you respond with "Grow up," if you are "fine with it"?

[Jake]

Whether you like Chopin or not is a matter of personal taste. Whether Chopin's music is "good" isn't really up for discussion, in my opinion. Viewed in a historical context, I think you can objectively state that Chopin was a great composer, and that his music is of considerable originality and quality.

If you're more touched by 50 Cent than Chopin, good on ya. However, Fiddy's music is OBJECTIVELY much less innovative, original, harmonic, complicated etc... 

PS: Just because Godowsky's Etudes on Chopin are wonderful and ingenious shouldn't detract at all from our opinion of Chopin. 

[Nightscape]

There is a school of thought that has indeed considered doing away with piano competitions.  However, many argue that competitions are a vital incentive to the next generation of pianists.  Over course, many have experienced firsthand the brutal effects of too much competition. 

[happyface94]

Chopin is Romantic music. It is something else to appreciate. I know that most people that dont play music kinda tend to like Chopin too. I personally love him.

[pita bread]

I don't care for Chopin either.

Curious though, where did this come from?

There is a school of thought that has indeed considered doing away with piano competitions.  However, many argue that competitions are a vital incentive to the next generation of pianists.  Over course, many have experienced firsthand the brutal effects of too much competition.

[Nightscape]

Curious though, where did this come from?

What are your real motives behind this statement,  pita_bread!?  Enough with the false pretenses and masks of deception!  Reveal to us your true intentions and pray that you are spared the wrath my friend, who has a particular fondness for Greek cuisine.

[pita bread]

What are you going to do? Eat me? I'll let you do that if you buy some good olive-spread first.

Back on topic, I was wondering where your quote regarding piano competitions came from, seeing no mention of competitions anywhere else in this thread.

[Dazzer]

Well... i don't mind listening to chopin. I love his ballades. But playing them is another matter.

As for not having any connection to chopin, i feel the same way towards liszt. And i'm sure there're people out there who'd feel the same way towards bartok, shostakovich, rachmaninov, prokofiev etc.

[ako]

Music taste can change over the years. When I was in HS, I loved Chopin and he was my one and only, favorite favorite composer. Now, I still like Chopin but I like Ravel, Beethoven and Bach more. Maybe 5 years from now, I'll develop a taste for yet another set of composers.

[Barbosa-piano]

 Well, Chopin is a composer that I respect greatly, and I love to play his music, great technique and musicality. But, I understand your point of view. That may happen to anyone that listens to any composer (the message is simple, and to the point).
 My own experience was: I loved (and still love) Chopin's music greatly. But, the first time I heard his Sonata in B Flat Minor, I was puzzled. I had a very hard time "understanding" it. The piece attracted me greatly, and I had no idea why. The first and last movements, where the ones I had trouble understanding. They seemed rhythmically incorrected and odd. But after listening them about 5 times, I got the point, and it is a beautiful piece completely together. The same case when I first heard Rachmaninoff's Prelude in C# minor, Op. 3 No. 4. I had that experience with many compositions.
 I think Prokofiev's piano works are the only ones that I am still trying to absorb into my mind. They are very removed from the usual classic. Different people, different opinions...

Well... i don't mind listening to chopin. I love his ballades. But playing them is another matter.

As for not having any connection to chopin, i feel the same way towards liszt. And i'm sure there're people out there who'd feel the same way towards bartok, shostakovich, rachmaninov, prokofiev etc.

I understand clearly what you mean. In my first years of piano practice, I had a very strong connection to Chopin. But now, this seems to be changing. It seems like I am leaning more toward other composers, specially Rachmaninoff and Bach.

 Chopin is still a refuge to me...  

Sincerely,
Mario Barbosa

 

[mikeyg]

Hmm, I probably should have read the first post before I replied... anyway, much of Chopin's music is highly emotional, much more so than most Bach, especilly the inventions.  Now, I agree that Chopin is highly overrated, and is far from being one of my favorite composere, most of his stuff sounds like parlor music, or anything that anyone else wrote during that time period.  His music is very shallow, it does not have the complexity that a piece of Bach has, which is what kind of turns me off to him [Chopin].  But unless you're a robot, you have to feel some emotion in some of his pieces (just don't listen to the waltzes, they are crap to the first degree.)

Sorry for the stupid response originally. 



And John, this here chameleon does not forgive.

[thierry13]

Sorry for the stupid response originally. 

This post is your stupidest one. You can't call the waltz crap. Maybe you don't like them, but there are SO beautiful, slow waltz. There are too exciting ones. They are all but crap. He is not highly overrated. Where is Chopin RATED as greatest composer? It's just that people really like his music, not because it's complex, because it's beautiful. Do not, EVER, call a piece of music crap again. I'll say like you : shut the *** up.

[mikeyg]

This post is your stupidest one. You can't call the waltz crap. Maybe you don't like them, but there are SO beautiful, slow waltz. There are too exciting ones. They are all but crap. He is not highly overrated. Where is Chopin RATED as greatest composer? It's just that people really like his music, not because it's complex, because it's beautiful. Do not, EVER, call a piece of music crap again. I'll say like you : shut the *** up.

I will call crap whatever I think is crap.  If you think I can't have an opinion, and that I can't express that opinion, then you can just shut the *** up.  mr. thierry.  Not everyone is a Chopinphile, and that's just something that you'll have to live with.

[Rach3]

Grow up.

[mikeyg]

This post is your stupidest one.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[mikeyg]

Grow up.

If this is to me, then why?  Because I don't like the chopin waltzes?  Because I think they are emotionally shallow?  As I said, I like the ballads, and the preludes, and the scherzos, you know, things that actually make him stand out from the overwhelming quantity of composers who created things just like his waltzes.  If you think the waltzes are great music, then you either have listened to a small amount of music, or you are just like OMG, it's Chopdaddy!  It's awesome!!!11uno

[Rach3]

I have enormous respect for the Chopin Waltzes, I'd appreciate if you'd refrain from direct insults.

-Rach3

[mikeyg]

As opposed to "grow up"?

Can someone plaese explain to me how the Chopin Waltzes are special?

[rlefebvr]

Well, Chopin is not on top of my list either.

I much prefer Bach and Beethoven, although I really like Chopin's preludes.

This of course is very personal and is my taste in music.

As for playing piano music, there is no doubt Chopin has to be at the top of any serious pianist list. It is so demanding most do not even attempt it.

I believe that is why you get such a zealot response from people. It's because they know the importance of Chopin to the piano itself and how he redefined the piano that we play or attempt to play it today. They take offence to anything that undermine or could undermine the importance of his music to the piano.You will find the better the piano player, the stronger his feelings for Chopin becomes.

and then of course there are the childish responses that demand no response at all.

[llamaman]

I like Chopin, but it must be difficult for people to dislike him, especially piano players, but I suppose there are some that do dislike him.

[mikeyg]

and then of course there are the childish responses that demand no response at all.

I asked what makes the waltzes so special.  Is this truly childish?  It is a serious question.  I don't see any difference between this and all the other pieces written be everryone else.  Please, I beg of you, enlighten me.

[Daevren]

Why do you assume that comment was aimed at you?

[Rach3]

I asked what makes the waltzes so special.  Is this truly childish?  It is a serious question.  I don't see any difference between this and all the other pieces written be everryone else.  Please, I beg of you, enlighten me.

Listen to music yourself. Get your own bloody opinions on things. If you don't see any difference between Chopin Waltzes and other composers' works, then you really have not been listening to music very long.

-Rach3

[mikeyg]

Listen to music yourself. Get your own bloody opinions on things. If you don't see any difference between Chopin Waltzes and other composers' works, then you really have not been listening to music very long.

-Rach3

I gave my own opinion.  I was criticized for it.  I asked why others liked them.  I see no problem with this.

Why do you assume that comment was aimed at you?

I was just guessing.

[rlefebvr]

I asked what makes the waltzes so special.  Is this truly childish?  It is a serious question.  I don't see any difference between this and all the other pieces written be everryone else.  Please, I beg of you, enlighten me.

Comment was not aimed at you buddy, quite the contrary.

Why you would assume such a thing is beyond me.

As for the Waltzes someone else will have to anwser that one.

[classico]

I know everybody has a different musical taste, but I still think it's hard not to like Chopin. His works are some of the most beautiful piece that have ever been composed. Actually he's my all-time favourite. I think his pieces are full of his true emotion. I don't think in this aspect anyone has ever come closer than Chopin.   

[gee]

geez man, i love his waltzes. I know some people may not enjoy them as much, but is it so bad that you have to give it the title of crap?

[mikeyg]

geez man, i love his waltzes. I know some people may not enjoy them as much, but is it so bad that you have to give it the title of crap?

It's all relative.  In comparison to his ballades, the Liszt sonata, and beethonen op106, it is crap.  But that is just my opinion.  Others may love it.

[orlandopiano]

I will be completely honest. Generally, I don't like Chopin's music. I think it has too much repetition, is uncomfortable to play, and the melodies are often uninteresting and underdeveloped. Frankly, I much prefer the music of Leopold Godowsky to Chopin.

You call Chopin uncomfortable and under developed, yet you prefer Godowsky? Color me confused.

[mikeyg]

You call Chopin uncomfortable and under developed, yet you prefer Godowsky? Color me confused.

Ludwig likes the more complex music, and that is cool with me.  It's why I like Bach so much.  And I admire the God for other reasons...  (SDC reasons)  I can see how one would consider the god's transcription to be better.

[orlandopiano]

Ludwig likes the more complex music, and that is cool with me.  It's why I like Bach so much.  And I admire the God for other reasons...  (SDC reasons)  I can see how one would consider the god's transcription to be better.

Yes but this still doesn't explain how Godowski is better developed and more comfortable to play than Chopin.

[mikeyg]

Yes but this still doesn't explain how Godowski is better developed and more comfortable to play than Chopin.

More developed,..yes.  better...matter of opinion.  But I agree.  it is definately no mor comfortable than chopin is.

[orlandopiano]

More developed,..yes.  better...matter of opinion.  But I agree.  it is definately no mor comfortable than chopin is.

Okay you're right he did say "more" developed, not better. But I'm not sure how being more developed does anything for a piece, other than make it longer and possibly more boring. Shoot I could sit here for three hours and improvise on a Chopin Nocturne, but that doesn't make it better.
 

[pita bread]

More developed can sometimes mean more interesting. Look at how Godowsky mutated many of the Chopin Etudes, it's fascinating.

[steinwayguy]

It's all relative. In comparison to his ballades, the Liszt sonata, and beethonen op106, it is crap. But that is just my opinion. Others may love it.

Why on earth would you compare Chopin's Waltzes with his Ballades, the Liszt Sonata and the Hammerklavier? There aren't many more diametrically opposed works than a Chopin Waltz and Beethoven 106. Chopin didn't write a Waltz with the intent of writing something as horrificly difficult and enormous as the Hammerklavier. There is absolutely no sense in your comment.

[pies]

­

[Waldszenen]

Chopin might not be to every pianist's tastes (as demonstrated in this thread) but no one can deny the enormous importance and stature of Chopin as a composer - he's probably the greatest composer for piano in history.


In saying that, Chopin has always been one of my favourite composers. And as a sidenote... I hate his piano concerti.

[mikeyg]

Why on earth would you compare Chopin's Waltzes with his Ballades, the Liszt Sonata and the Hammerklavier? There aren't many more diametrically opposed works than a Chopin Waltz and Beethoven 106. Chopin didn't write a Waltz with the intent of writing something as horrificly difficult and enormous as the Hammerklavier. There is absolutely no sense in your comment.

Alright, then the Rach preludes are superior to the Chopin Waltzes.  That up to your standards, Sir Guy?

[nicolo]

I've been reading this thread, as well as others, and I see a reoccuring theme.  Chopin and Beethoven seem to be constantly be mentioned together & the context regarding the piano only is the following:

Beethoven - Writer of complex, mature, well structured, & emotionally meaningful music. 

Chopin - Writer of non-complex, immature, shallow, music in which he exibits musical lazzyiness, sloppy structure.......and where Beethoven's music is described as musically excellent, Chopin's is not but it may be 'ok' pianistically.

Focusing on the subject of the musicality including the complexity, and value vs shallow, could somebody please enlighten me on what these people are talking about when they say that Chopin's music is not musical, not complex especially compared to Beethoven?  I guess the only definition that I don't understand in its context is the musical vs pianistic (I thought I understood but guess not if after seeing it applied here)  And what would be sreally enlightening is if actuall examples could be used, especially works that I have studied....I play alot of Chopin but only a couple of Beethoven Sonatas; for brevity, Pathetique, Moonlight, Appassonata 1st mov.  And if anyone would attempt give a brief explanation I would love to understand.

[Jacey1973]

Aww Rach 3 and Mikey they were harsh responses! Notsoperfectpitch has his/her right to an opinion.

I personally love Chopin's music, but i can see what you mean about Chopin having a certain sound that you would recognise anywhere (surely that is a good thing though?)

I understand that Chopin music can sometimes sound quite samey - i think this is true of say e.g the waltzes but there is a hell of alot of artistic merit in e.g ballades, nocturnes etc.

For me i first properly discovered Chopin about 3 years ago and was obsessed with his music for at least a year solid afterwards (well i guess i still am)! It's the kind of music that draws you in, you can't help having his melodies playing in your head all day (or all year in my case).

[Baohui]

Almost half of the waltzes were published posthumously, and so against Chopin's wishes. Therefore you can't use them to judge him, or the rest of the waltzes. Chopin was also obviously scornful of waltzes in general, look at these quotes:

"Among the numerous pleasures of Vienna the hotel evenings are famous. During supper Strauss or Lanner play waltzes...After every waltz they get huge applause; and if they play a Quodlibet, or jumble of opera, song and dance, the hearers are so overjoyed that they don't know what to do with themselves. It shows the corrupt taste of the Viennese public."

"Here, waltzes are called works! And Strauss and Lanner, who play them for dancing, are called Kapellmeistern. This does not mean that everyone thinks like that; indeed, nearly everyone laughs about it; but only waltzes get printed."

(https://www.geocities.com/Vienna/2217/quotes.htm)

Therefore it seems likely that Chopin composed his waltzes not for the sake of the music, but for the aristocratic public. This means that you cannot compare them to serious pieces of music like the Rach preludes.

Beethoven - Writer of complex, mature, well structured, & emotionally meaningful music.

Chopin - Writer of non-complex, immature, shallow, music in which he exibits musical lazzyiness, sloppy structure.......and where Beethoven's music is described as musically excellent, Chopin's is not but it may be 'ok' pianistically.

I would also like to see one of Chopin's detractors justify this with specific examples.

[orlandopiano]

Alright, then the Rach preludes are superior to the Chopin Waltzes.  That up to your standards, Sir Guy?

This continuing reference to the waltzes is getting absurdly stupid. NEWSFLASH: THE WALTZES ARE NOT CHOPIN'S MOST GREATEST PIECES.  No one ever claimed they were, and Chopin never had any intention of making them structural masterpieces. In fact, they might be musically his most unsubstantial pieces. Why even bring them up? Brahms wrote waltzes too, but do we use those as his musical benchmark?  Or maybe we should criticize Beethoven's compositional abilities because of that blasted Fur Elise.

So this is still a strange and unfair comparison because you are comparing arguably Chopin's least impressive set of pieces (Waltzes) with Rachmaninoff's most impressive (Preludes). Wouldn't it make more sense to compare Chopin's preludes with Rachmaninoff's preludes? Chopin's etudes with Rachmaninoff's etude-Tableaux? Chopin's sonatas with Rachmaninoff's sonatas? Chopin's Ballades with Rachmaninoff's Moment Musicaux?  Chopin's concertos with Rachmaninoff's concertos?  And what do you have of Rachmaninoff to compare to the Nocturnes, Impromptus, Scherzi, Polonaises, Barcarolle, Fantasie, etc?

[Jacey1973]

It's just cos everyone knows the waltzes and have probably played a great deal of them (as they are much easier than some of his bigger works). None of us said we were Chopin specialists! But take your point about the waltzes, good point.

Thanks for the Chopin quotes, I didn't know how Chopin felt about the waltzes, anyone got anymore interesting quotes?