Opinions on the Hardest piano piece ever written

[Skeptopotamus]

Ououuouououououou...scary. Yeah, right. "This ought to shut you up"...you really spooked me there for a moment mate.

I don't know what point, if any, you were trying to make with this statement, but all that came out was ignorance and immaturity.  Nobody is trying to scare or spook you; I'm not sure what sort of midnight-malaised train of thought brought you to that conclusion but it was a wrong one.

This is not music as my eyes see it (and my ears have already heard it). This is a chef salad (and an already stirred one) on paper.

Ah.  This is not music as your eyes see it.  I'm sorry oh great and omnipotent decider of what is and isn't music I forgot who you were!  Of course this isn't music!  It's just notes written onto staves with meter and tempo and playing instructions written for the musical instrument the piano that when followed results in sound, but then again of course you are indeed the one who decides what is and isn't music; after all, it's in your title.  I'm sorry that this piece doesn't adhere to your particular, personal tastes in music but it is indeed a piece of music whether you think so or not.  I know some people enjoy this genre (me being one of them; Xenakis also being my favorite composer).  The question here wasn't "does this insignificant twat like this really hard piece of music?".  It was "what is the most difficult piece?".  And this is the most difficult piece.  And you, oh insignificant twat, can hate it as much as you want but it is still music no matter how much you think it isn't.  Narcissist.  And I'm not sure I get your chef salad on paper remark; wouldn't that be lettuce and other assorted vegetables and a vinegarette on paper as opposed to ink and notes?

Check previous posts Skepto. Any guy with basic music theory knowledge could come up with this at random, and any other with architecture in mind (in the case of Xenakis) could come up with pretty much the same result (and the same effect). I really wonder, if Xenakis saw a live performance of this piece, would he be able to spot possible wrong notes hit? If he really could, well, what can I say...he should be placed in the Guinness book for drinking too much caffeine. Because this thing doesn't adhere to any harmonic template that a sane ear can catch.

Check previous posts?   About what?  Don't be vague; it just leaves you open to attacks about your vagueness.  And don't call me Skepto.  You can call me Skeptopotamus.  Now this is where you're just wrong.  I have actually read Iannis Xenakis' book Formalated Music and publicly performed "Herma" - Musique Symbolique so I'll be damned if you're going to give me a lecture on the writing techniques used in Xenakis' works.  If you knew even the slightest thing about composition you would know to respect Xenakis deeply and you would know that what you just said was a bunch of fallacious bullcrap too.  And I'm sorry if you don't have the musical sense or motivation to understand Xenakis' works but it's not his fault.  I'm sorry you don't have the abilities to do so.

I am not sorry at all that I don't yield the "refined pallette" you mentioned before. In such cases, I would prefer to keep only the 7 basic colors on mine.
Tell me this is impressionism and not music. I take back all of the above.

You should be sorry.  Yes you're very sorry.  Beg for forgiveness ^^  What are the 7 basic colors?  We're talking about your pallette, meaning 7 things you like to taste.  This is too easy.  I'll just let people think what I'm thinking.  Tell you this is Impressionism and not music?  Impressionism is a form of music.

I am God.

Ok I made that one up but he was thinking it.  ^^

[toymaker]

I expressed my personal views, and did not use any aggressive - foul language against you dude.
Since Xenakis was apparently paying for your rent judging by your style and spectacular defense techiques, it's ok...and for what it's worth. you have no idea who I am and what my level of knowledge and understanding is.

All in all, get a life.

[perfect_pitch]

Toymaker - I wouldn't take anything Skeptopotomous says seriously - I mean for a guy who is only 17, who knows nothing about real world experience (only because he is 17), who probably never taught really classroom music teaching.... I wouldn't lose sleep over it. When he has some REAL experience about life.... We might start listening to what he has to say.....   I hope.    And I'm sorry I don't have the musical sense or motivation to understand Xenakis' works... I'll try drink half a bottle of whiskey and see if it starts to make sense.   

And Pita... IGNORANCE??? I gave Impressionistic Music and Expressionism and Chromaticism and Minimalism a shot... Believe me I did...   I studied it... because we had to, but I did everything to try and find something brilliant in it... but there isn't. Simple as that.

That Xenakis Piece you attached??? There is nothing spiritual or emotional in random notes and a whole lot of noise.

And I'm sorry JCarey... about all this.... but I had to put up with this music for a year... I gave it my best shot and i found nothing fascinating about it... Again JCarey.... I'm sorry I may be insulting your intelligence but Music and Art have lost it's brilliance since the beginning of Schoenberg.

[toymaker]

And I'm sorry I don't have the musical sense or motivation to understand Xenakis' works... I'll try drink half a bottle of whiskey and see if it starts to make sense.   

The bottle is on me mate! And the other half is mine!

[mephisto]

perfect pitch that is some of the most stupid stuff I have heard in my entire life.
My favourite composer of all time is Chopin and most likely I will never find any music from the 20th century that are more beautifull than his music but does that mean that I can`t enjoy 20th century classical music? No it doesn`t. I love most comopsers from Bach to Ligeti and I love them for different reasons.

Why have music since Schoenberg lost its brilliance. I for onelike the msuic of Schoenberg and Berg. It is beautifull.
One type of music that I don`t understand is Boulez´s early music, but should I therefor call his music bad.? No I shouldn`t.
Is music bad only because someone like you don`t understand it.? No it isn`t.

How is music after Schoenberg bad? Have you said that to Berg,Debussy, Ravel, Prokofiev, Stravinsky, Nono, Bartok, Ginastera, Xenakis, Messiane, Ornstein and countless others. Their music is beautifull. But not neccesary for the same reasons that makes Chopin`s music besutifull or Mozart`s music so charming.

Prokofiev`s music for instense have it all. Humor, great melodie, rythm harmoni and exitement. And yes he uses a lot of cromaticsem. But Mozart and Chopin does also us  cromaticsm, but what is wrong about that. Do you mean that music should stand still and that contemporary composrs shoudl compose msuic in the style Mozart.? One thing is for sure Prokofiev`s music has got more power than anything Chopin or Mozart ever wrote. But I like all of them.

I love Xenakis` Evryali. I think that the teme is one of the best in music history and that the piece just becomes more beautifull for every time I listen to. it. What do you find so bad about it.? The only negative thing is that it is so difficult.

I can`t understan that you are so old fashioned that you can`t like 20th century classical and contemporary music. I mean who doesn`t like Ligeti or Stravinsky for that matter? And you must hate Stravinsky since he died after Schoenberg. And who don`t like Stravinsky? I mean grow up and be more open.

Also Rach 3 isn´t the hardest piece  ever. It is insanely hard but not the hardest piece ever. Bartok2 and Prokofiev 2 are harder and they are in the standart repertoire.
Evryali is probbaly the most difficult piece. But some parts of it is impossible to play so you have to choose what to play and what you don`t want to play. So maybe Boulez`2. piano sonata is more difficult.

Even for someone who can`t understand impressionism(!!!!!!) you really shock me.

I mean how can someone call impressionist music stupid? I know they did that in 1895 when Debussy premiered Prelude a la pres midi but come on that is more than 100 years ago and it is today considered to be among the most important compositions of all time. So at the end:

Grow up! And be more open.

-The Mephisto

[toymaker]

I love Xenakis` Evryali. I think that the teme is one of the best in music history and that the piece just becomes more beautifull for every time I listen to. it. What do you find so bad about it.? The only negative thing is that it is so difficult.

In one of my previous posts, I said "Beauty is in the eye (and ears in this occassion) of the beholder". And this is the case right here. Personally, I find everything bad about it, and I strongly disagree with you. It is percussive piano at its extreme. So extreme, that is provokes no feelings at all, it sounds like keyboard abuse. So why bother learn the d@mn thing in the first place? To frighten the audience? If I wanted to do that, I would learn Scriabin's "Verse la Flamme" for example. That should do the trick and make sense to me at the same time, because simply it does. It IS percussive, it IS extreme to an extent, but it leaves something in you when the piece is over. Your example has left nothing but a headache to me.

Even for someone who can`t understand impressionism(!!!!!!) you really shock me.

Classical impressionism is at least fantastic at times, e.g. Ravel's "Mirroirs" are a perfect example of that. Contemporary impressionism? For my taste, please give me a break. The examples I saw and heard in this thread are terrible to say the least.

That's what I tried to state in my previous posts: my personal opinion. And Skepto(potamus) went berserk about it...chill out guys...it is music for crying out loud. It's just like some people like watermelons and some not: it's just a matter of taste.

[mephisto]

When you wrote impressionism I instently tought like probably every sane man(human being) that you meant impressionism. How stupid of me

You are of course allowed to hate or like what ever music you want to. Saying the opposite is just stupid. but to call all classical music after Schoenberg stupid is even more stupid.

I mean do you really think that le sacre primtemps(rite of the spring) is a stupid piece?

Also first you say tha beauty is in the eyes of the beholder and than you say that Evryali is percussive piano at its worst?
Also what do you think about other percussive piano music such as Prokofiev and Bartók?

-The Mephisto

[toymaker]

When you wrote impressionism I instently tought like probably every sane man(human being) that you meant impressionism. How stupid of me

You are of course allowed to hate or like what ever music you want to. Saying the opposite is just stupid. but to call all classical music after Schoenberg stupid is even more stupid.

I mean do you really think that le sacre primtemps(rite of the spring) is a stupid piece?

Also first you say tha beauty is in the eyes of the beholder and than you say that Evryali is percussive piano at its worst?
Also what do you think about other percussive piano music such as Prokofiev and Bartók?

-The Mephisto

Yes, I did say that about Evryali, and not only that particular piece. Please read the paralellism I made here: http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,10658.msg116975.html#msg116975. That is how I see the progress of art nowadays, my mind just doesn't get it. What can I do about it? If there are people who like contemporary art in general, good for them. Personally, I just hate it conclusively, after having given it a thorough try.

About Prokofiev and Bartok: I like both of them, but are not on the top 5 of my favorites. I have given a try on some of their "popular" works, e.g. Suggestion Diabolique (NOT at the tempo it should be played) and Allegro Barbaro. However, I am not qualified to play most of their music: don't have enough time to study so hard for it! And when I do, I prefer to invest it on Liszt.

One final note: I never implied that a piece is stupid. There might very well be Fermat's last theorem's proof in the notes of Evryali...why should I care? 

[Skeptopotamus]

Toymaker - I wouldn't take anything Skeptopotomous says seriously - I mean for a guy who is only 17, who knows nothing about real world experience (only because he is 17), who probably never taught really classroom music teaching.... I wouldn't lose sleep over it. When he has some REAL experience about life.... We might start listening to what he has to say.....   I hope.    And I'm sorry I don't have the musical sense or motivation to understand Xenakis' works... I'll try drink half a bottle of whiskey and see if it starts to make sense.   

You know, at least toymaker has some idea of what he's talking about, unlike you.  so I'm stupid because i'm only 17.  I guess when I read Formalated Music I couldn't understand the big words cause i'm just a stupid 17 year old.  And when did I ever say I was a teacher?  Oh wait that's right; never, idiot.  Or maybe you just cant speak properly at all and you meant i've never BEEN taught in a classroom.  Well I've been going on/off private study/fine arts school for 7 years so you're wrong again.  And i have a feeling I've had much more experience with Xenakis than you, but then again I dont go making outrageous assumptions like you do.  Only idiots do that.  But unless you've studied him and played his works then I do indeed have more experience in the matter, and since the chances of someone like you having done that being slim to none I guess this makes you wrong again!

And if you're wondering why you pissed me off so much it's because anyone who knows me well can tell you i've dealt with a HELL of a lot more life than you probably have, speaking in terms of both music and generality.


Also, you seem to think I'm stupid because I'm younger than you.  Maybe you'd like to talk about the differences in Camus' and Sartre's viewpoints and which ones' ideals are more apt to modern day life.  Or maybe you want to talk about whether Kafka is a Nihilist or Existentialist.  Possibly just have a spirited conversation about the philosophy of Kierkegaard or Nietzsche or Kant, Spinoza, or Schopenhauer.  Possibly of the similarities and differences of Anthony Burgess and George Orwell.  Maybe we could talk about the meaning behind Joyce's Finnegan's Wake or the allusions in his Ulysses.  Or we could always talk about Beckett's Waiting for Gonod and Company; those are classics.  Maybe even discuss some of my own published work!

Maybe you don't read much and we could talk about art!  How and why Miro is classified as a Surrealist or contrast Kandinsky and Mondrian's artwork to their Architecture.  We could talk about the evolution of Dali's work, or discuss the color schemes of Rothko.  Maybe you don't have any culture and you don't read OR enjoy art.  I noticed toymaker said something about Fermat's Last Theorem (x^n+y^n=z^n) which was the longest standing math puzzle until recently.  Maybe you're a math major.  We could talk about Chaos Math, String Theory, Super String Theory, Quantum Mechanics, 3-space; you name it.  I was on the math team for 7 years after all, and I bone up on Hawking and Greene in my spare time, and if you think I'm bluffing try me.

Or we could get to the point and talk about music.  We could talk about the different tone structures in Xenakis' Herma, or the construction of his Persopolis or the boulean methods he used to create Eonta and Palimpsest.  But maybe Xenakis isn't your thing; we could talk about Penderecki's unique music structures and his formulas, or maybe we could talk about Boulez's Algorhythmic methods.  We could compare Messiaen with Takemitsu, or just stick with Messiaen and debate over whether he succeeded in writing his music as visually uncomplicated.  Maybe I could try to explain to you how Ligeti's Etude "Desordre" was written but I doubt you'd understand.   I could show you how to draft a twelve-tone matrix if you'd like.

Also if you'd like I could pull up my SAT and ACT scores for you (1540 and 34 respectively) or show my GPA (4.7) or my International Baccauleariate Diploma.  Maybe you would want to see where I was nominated as my school's National Merit Finalist.  I could show you how I'm a member of Mensa and the High IQ Society also if you'd like, or my NFL (national forensics league) certificate.  Possibly the offers I have sitting in front of me from Ivy League schools?



hmmmmmmmm....... looks like the 17 year old is smarter than you =)

[toymaker]

Skeptopotamus, do you seriously think that anybody would go through your last post and be impressed? Moreover, call you smart? 
Remember kid: It's one thing to be educated and having a good memory, and a whole another to be cultivated. Just think about that for a sec.
It's understandable to brag about your knowledge judging by your age, but instead, you should keep all this info ("so what" crap to some, no pun intended) to yourself, and formulate an opinion of your own instead of being a parrot. Just a piece of advice from a guy older than you.

[Skeptopotamus]

My opinion is the Evryali is a spectacular piece of music, and I wasn't bragging; just making a point that he shouldn't assume i'm intellectually inferior to him due to my age.

[Skeptopotamus]

hmmmmmm......... cultivated.  I'm not sure how my manners effect my ability to give valuably insight on a subject but w/e I'm told i have great tablemanners and I always open the door for my boyfriend if that counts.

[janne p.]

If the only thing you (all of you) can post is insults and judgments of each other's intelligence etc., please start a new thread for it or go private. Please. It's quite boring.

[toymaker]

You're absolutely right Janne. I'm outta here.

[Skeptopotamus]

they started it! *points* i just finished it ^^


ok.  so back to the question.  does anyone believe there is a piece harder than evryali still?

[JCarey]

they started it! *points* i just finished it ^^


ok.  so back to the question.  does anyone believe there is a piece harder than evryali still?

Skepto, do you happen to have a file of the entire piece that you could send me?  If you do, I would really appreciate it if you would send it to jcarey_compositions@yahoo.com. I'd really be interested in seeing it. Thanks.

[Skeptopotamus]

sure!

[thierry13]

And Pita... IGNORANCE??? I gave Impressionistic Music and Expressionism and Chromaticism and Minimalism a shot... Believe me I did...   I studied it... because we had to, but I did everything to try and find something brilliant in it... but there isn't. Simple as that.

Why did I found out if there isn't? Minimalism not brillant ? what! Xenakis not brilliant ? what! May it be dissonant, and not pleasing for ears at first listen, it is still genius.

[pita bread]

And Pita... IGNORANCE??? I gave Impressionistic Music and Expressionism and Chromaticism and Minimalism a shot... Believe me I did...   I studied it... because we had to, but I did everything to try and find something brilliant in it... but there isn't. Simple as that.

So there isn't any brilliance because you couldn't find it. Too bad, you're wrong, some of us have found brilliance in it.

That Xenakis Piece you attached??? There is nothing spiritual or emotional in random notes and a whole lot of noise.

First, I will say again, I like how you state your opinion as fact. However, the only thing your "facts" are proving is your ignorance.

Second, your opinions are worthless in this argument because you supply nothing solid to back them.

perfect_pitch, this thread was about the "hardest piano piece ever written." I don't care whether you think any of the aforementioned pieces are music or not. I am here to discuss what I think, and what other people think, is the "hardest piano piece ever written." I didn't ask for your ignorance, I highly doubt anyone else here asked for your ignorance.

[sevencircles]

Xenakis pianomusic is not very good but some of the orchestral works are milestones like Metastasis.

Check out Jonchaies as well. An amazing work that can send a cold chill down your spine.

[Skeptopotamus]

i like his piano music but yes I agree that you could definitely get some emotion out of a few of his orchestral works.  Check Palimpsest, Persepolis [GMR Remix] and Plaiedes to name a few.  All very fun ^.-

[jehangircama]

hey skepto, just drifting from the topic a bit, have you read Brian Greene's "The Elegant Universe"? I came across the name in Hawking's"The Universe in a Nutshell" bibliography. I've got the book. What did you think of it? I'm not going to discuss these modern composers here till I fin d out a bit about them. anyways....

[Skeptopotamus]

yes!  That's the Greene I was referring to.  It's a book on String Theory- sort of a beginner's guide which is nice to get started on reading on teh topic =D  If you're interested in String Theory it's probably the best book to get started with.  It's not too dense so it's rather readable.  Also it's in paperback so you wont have to spend a fortune buying it ^^

[jehangircama]

GREAT i've got exams now but i'll read it first thing after them.. btw there was a very good Discovery channel programme about 2 months ago on string theory and how the 5 different theories combined into M theory. really interesting.

[chromatickler]

I always open the door for my boyfriend if that counts.

unpredictable

[mephisto]

ok.  so back to the question.  does anyone believe there is a piece harder than evryali still?

Yes.
Let me explain. Evryali is impossible to play. Therefor it can`t count. If evryali counts than I can write another impossible piece that is even more difficult than Evryali. If you don`t belive me that the piece is physicly impossible to play than read this.

http://pages.infinit.net/kore/xenakistamingfull.html

Anyway after you have  read that and agrees with me that Evryali can`t count than there are other playable pieces that can be discussed.

t is difficult to say exectly wich piece is the most difficult but I have a little list.
Xenaxis- Herma
Barret`s- tract
Zimmerman`s -wustenwanderung
finessy- general pianomusic more specific PC 4 and All fall down.
Sorabji -Opus Clavicembalisticum is also extremely difficult also a piece called Gulistan.

But if you are thinking of piecs wich normal people would find nice and at the same time is very difficult maybe
Godowsky`s passacaglia is the most difficult one.

There are prolly more tough. But not Evryali. If you say Evryali than I will just compose a piece where you have to play a million notes per second.

-The Mephisto

[stevie]

i have always agreed that it is a more valid argument to debate the most difficult piece that actually sounds GOOD.

of course, yes i do like some sorabji and others...but to appeal to general audiences, i have long had the theory that godowsky's are the most difficult works in a romantic tonality.

yes, theres the barber sonata, and other things, but this is kind of neo-romantic, and not as polyphonically intense.

ligeti i also like, and can be as hard or harder in some ways than godowksy, but again this is music that doesnt appeal to as many people as romantic tonal works.

[mephisto]

Well it is impossible to say if somethings actually sounds good or nt. I acyually thinks that Xenakis evryali is a beautifull piece.

Are you sure that stravinsy`s petrouchka isn`t more difficult than Godowsky`s passacaglia?
i guess you answer will be. In some ways it is more difficult, but in other was the Godowsky piece is more difficult.

-The Mephisto

[stevie]

the stravinsky piece, i have heard, but not seen the score.

its a completely different kind of music, stravinsky must be played with a prokofiev-like percussive touch and strength...

godowsky must be played like bach, really. you cant simply play the notes, for it to work properly you have to have extreme finger independence to bring out the many voices.

[pita bread]

Yes.
Let me explain. Evryali is impossible to play. Therefor it can`t count.

If it's impossible to play, how do you explain the recordings?

[pianistimo]

say, who decides what graduate students have to play for sightreading exams?  wouldn't it be funny if it was that evryali piece?  hahaha   

the first time i saw the piece i was supposed to sightread, i look up really close at it,  then leaned back far away, and then up close again.  trying to visually scan, but all i could see was the first measure.  then i said 'oh no.'  'oh NOOO'   i think it was something by rachmaninov which should have been easy enough, but this piece.  hahathe judges would really get a performance out of that.

skeptotamus, you really aRE 17?  this is not a joke?  i thought, from your list of stuff, that you were like my last piano prof.  you are a serious student.  (*slightly wonders about skepto and the porcorina thread.  wonders if skepto is 90)

i really like the sounds that poulenc gets out of chords.  his music isn't as difficult as some, but it is difficult.  he's rather mozartish to me because he does affirm form, but he does away with one tonality and uses either bi-tonality or modalism or picks out a tonic note that you would not expect.  he also experimented with medieval and renaissance types of music (with fourths/fifths and open chords) and also, purely vocal compositions.  you get the sense that he LIKED tone and not that he was against beauty of hearing  certain harmonies (although we might not be used to that particular sound nowdays).  i don't know much about xenaxis , but from what people are saying, am wondering what his written purposes were.  sometimes composers say exactly what's on their minds, thus explaining the dissonances and making sense for you - so you can better understand where they are coming from.

[JCarey]

If it's impossible to play, how do you explain the recordings?

Well, you might come to the conclusion that they faked it, much like Madge faked the OC.

To me, Evryali sounds like the overall effect is more important than the individual notes. I would also say that that applies to the English Country Tunes as well.

[Etude]

Well, you might come to the conclusion that they faked it, much like Madge faked the OC.

I don't agree that it's similar to what Madge did.  We know now that Opus Clavicembalisticum is actually possible to play (so what he did in the 22 years he spent learning it I have no idea), but the other pieces may not be.  I very much doubt the pages from Finnissy are possible at all.

To me, Evryali sounds like the overall effect is more important than the individual notes. I would also say that that applies to the English Country Tunes as well.

Well some sections of the first piece sound a little like that, but you can almost always hear the individual notes, unlike in the extract from Finnissy which is just a wall of sound.

[mephisto]

If it's impossible to play, how do you explain the recordings?

Well what can you expect from someone whos name is pitabread.

If you will  read the hole link you may understand. First of the piece is laid out on fore staves and in some cases it is impossible to play all at the sames time therefor you have to choose wich(the smartest is of course to play the top) to play. And now go and read the link.

-The Mephisto

[mephisto]

the stravinsky piece, i have heard, but not seen the score.

its a completely different kind of music, stravinsky must be played with a prokofiev-like percussive touch and strength...

godowsky must be played like bach, really. you cant simply play the notes, for it to work properly you have to have extreme finger independence to bring out the many voices.

Are you saying that to play the Stravinsky piece you only have to play the notes and nothing more? If you listen to Pollini play it and no body else you will hear how insanely better he plays it than the others who have played it. You need to do a lot more than to just play the notes( as you said) to give a nice performance of it! And also it sounds better(not to diss the Godowsky piece). Also you have to play like and orchestra and the piece isn`t nearly as pianistic ans Godowsky. But yeah the Godowsky piece is much like bach on steroids.

http://www.piano.ru/stra.html download the top piece.

-The Mephisto

[pita bread]

Well what can you expect from someone whos name is pitabread.

If you will read the hole link you may understand. First of the piece is laid out on fore staves and in some cases it is impossible to play all at the sames time therefor you have to choose wich(the smartest is of course to play the top) to play. And now go and read the link.

-The Mephisto

Just because Peter Hill and Marc Couroux find it impossible to play doesn't mean it IS impossible. Giant intervals (13th's, 14th's) don't make a piece impossible, if you can't reach it, there's always the option of breaking the chord and taking the lowest as a grace. Sorabji's Opus Clavicembalisticum hits 5 staves and is still clearly playable. Face it, no matter how insanely difficult it is, Evryali was designed to be humanly playable.

[mephisto]

Just because Peter Hill and Marc Couroux find it impossible to play doesn't mean it IS impossible. Giant intervals (13th's, 14th's) don't make a piece impossible, if you can't reach it, there's always the option of breaking the chord and taking the lowest as a grace. Sorabji's Opus Clavicembalisticum hits 5 staves and is still clearly playable. Face it, no matter how insanely difficult it is, Evryali was designed to be humanly playable.

My answer was maybe a little bit stupid.. I didn`t mean that becasue it was on 4 staves it is impossible. But that because of that it is easier to cheat becasue you can play the to top staves and no one will hear the difference.

And no this piece isn`t designed for a human to play. it isn`t just that it is extremely difficult it is impossible. At least have I been led to belive. I have the score, do you?

-The Mephisto

[stevie]

i saw the petrushka score, yes it is very difficult, but its really a less complicated difficulty than the godowsky work, to me atleast.

[cz4p32]

I am coming in on this late....

But since everyone has their own ideas of what is music to them, some people might like Finnissy, and such, and yes taking it just as technical difficulty, it may be the most difficult.  So I think a better question to ask is this.  What is the most technically difficult piece, where you can still hum the basic melody?  That eliminates works like Opus C, and Finnissy, and such.  In my opinion, it would be Alkan Concerto for solo piano.

[stevie]

I am coming in on this late....

But since everyone has their own ideas of what is music to them, some people might like Finnissy, and such, and yes taking it just as technical difficulty, it may be the most difficult.  So I think a better question to ask is this.  What is the most technically difficult piece, where you can still hum the basic melody?  That eliminates works like Opus C, and Finnissy, and such.  In my opinion, it would be Alkan Concerto for solo piano.

well, yeah, this is the point i have been getting at.

the alkan concerto actually isnt as difficult as the op76 no2 IMO.

[mephisto]

I am coming in on this late....

But since everyone has their own ideas of what is music to them, some people might like Finnissy, and such, and yes taking it just as technical difficulty, it may be the most difficult.  So I think a better question to ask is this.  What is the most technically difficult piece, where you can still hum the basic melody?  That eliminates works like Opus C, and Finnissy, and such.  In my opinion, it would be Alkan Concerto for solo piano.

One of the most stupid things I have heard in my hole live. Musical value isn`t based on how easy you can remember the melodie and can hum it. The question is simply what is the most difficult piece, end of question.

-The Mephisto

[cz4p32]

One of the most stupid things I have heard in my hole live. Musical value isn`t based on how easy you can remember the melodie and can hum it. The question is simply what is the most difficult piece, end of question.

-The Mephisto

It's not stupid if you really think about it.  because like was pointed out over an over, someone could throw a million notes on paper, say to play them all in 30 seconds, and bam!  You have the most difficult piece...end of question.  But then someone can come along, and add 1million more notes and bam!  You've made it more difficult.  So there has to be some limits.  If you're talking about the most difficult piece a human being can play, technically speaking, then yes modern composers like finnissy, etc...come to mind.  My point was there should be a discussion on difficult, understandable music.  It's not a matter of being easy to remember the melody, it's a matter of having a melody at all!

[pita bread]

My point was there should be a discussion on difficult, understandable music. It's not a matter of being easy to remember the melody, it's a matter of having a melody at all!

I'm sorry if Sorabji's Opus Clavicembalisticum is beyond your understanding, but the OC most certainly has a melody, and quite a few, at that.

By the way, are those sheets for Finnissy's Gershwin transcriptions availible anywhere?

[mephisto]

Evryali has a melodie.
OC has a lot more than one melodie.

And if you rank music after the quantity that likes it than Britney Spears music should be among the most difficult music that people actually likes. Alkan`s would on the other side be ranked among the worst music in the world because so few people have heard about him or like him, therefor he should not be a  part of this question.

Most difficult piece that most people actually likes: Fur Elise or maybe Rondo Alla Turca.. Not Alkan. How many pre cent of the population actually likes Alkan? Prolly 0.0001%.

And anyway Godowsky is even more difficult than Alkan and he writes tonal romantic music.

We are talking about music that is actually playable and therefor you can`t just throw in a million notes. Boulez 2. sonata has to be among the most difficult playable pieces no mather how much you hate it.
Also those other pieces that I mentioned earlier.

And yet again the question is: What pieces are the most difficult ever written. And they have to be playable. And not what is the most difficult piano piece that the wast majority of the citisens of the world actually likes.

-The Mephisto

[stevie]

some alkan is comparable to godowsky in difficulty, check out some of the op76 no2 etude for right hand alone.

there are many kinds of difficulty too, in godowsky there isnt anything of the ssame kind of difficulty as the 2nd movement of alkan's sonata, extreme leaps at speed in both hands.

[mephisto]

I think that Godowsky has a lot of mental difficulity and I think that Alkan has more physical difficulity.

My souces may be completly wrong but isn`t opus 76 no2 for the rigth hand a lone?

-The Mephisto

[Siberian Husky]

look at this sh*t

everybody is tryna stand on their tippy toes as much as they can to down talk on other people?...especially those guy who use their age to insinuate wisdom and quality of thought is reflected by age through some parallel default growth...i dont fuckin get it...

we're all on the same team..we're all music lovers....why are you guys trippin eachother up?..over nothin..all the composers you speak of are standing together in the heavens shaking their heads in disbelief as to how people like you could lose focus of the importance that they initially attempted to convey...

"you cant grasp the understanding"
"your too young to realise this"
"your too ignorant to comprehend this"...


im not gunna be one to judge..you guys can like and dislike what you may..we shouldnt expect others to view things like we do...im not even gunna say its "childish"..cause theres nothing inferior about a child..it simply is a different state of mind...just like everyones theory of mind here is different from the next...

you can boast your maturity all you like...people here may call me immature and childish..annoying and waste of text..but i could give a flying *** honestly..its the internet..your staring at a computer screen and punching your fingers on a plastic pad....

whats beautiful is seeing people expression passion on here...through internet...you know..simple texts can mean alot when they are eloquent about what you speak of...but downtalking on someone..name calling..and seriously getting into rediculous disputes about who is better...and then..what gets me..is when people add a little emoticon smiley like a wink..or that eye roller..or that sarcastic grin..cause they know if they dont add that they'll look like a complete moron LOL....seriously people lighten up....quit wasting your time flaming someone over the net...you'll never meet them..you'll never know of their true ways...etc etc...


i got a new car

[stevie]

I think that Godowsky has a lot of mental difficulity and I think that Alkan has more physical difficulity.

My souces may be completly wrong but isn`t opus 76 no2 for the rigth hand a lone?

-The Mephisto

thats what i said, and all piano playing is both mental and physical.

do you basically mean that godowsky is more difficult to co-ordinate, and alkan is simply more tiring to the fingers and arms?

[Etude]

I'm sorry if Sorabji's Opus Clavicembalisticum is beyond your understanding, but the OC most certainly has a melody, and quite a few, at that. 

Indeed.  24 to be exact, excluding inversions, retrogrades, and retrograde inversions.
Many of them are incredibly beautiful, such as the passacaglia theme.

[mephisto]

thats what i said, and all piano playing is both mental and physical.

do you basically mean that godowsky is more difficult to co-ordinate, and alkan is simply more tiring to the fingers and arms?

Yes.

-The Mephisto