Czerny - Where to Start

[grazioso]

Hey,
having played some chopin and moskowski etudes as well as hanon, i would now like to learn some czerny etudes. Howevere i am completley unfamiliar with them and wondered if there was a good order for attempting them. Due to the huge number of them i don't know where to start. Help please!

[thalbergmad]

I think the answer could be don't start.

The Moszkowski and Chopin are far better than anything you will see from Czerny.

However, some of his solo works are worth looking at, especially his variations Brilliante and trasncription of Mozart's Figaro.

[bernhard]

I have to agree with Thalbergmad. Especially since you are already playing Chopin Studies, so you have already surpassed anything Czerny may give you.

Although I am not a supporter of Czerny, here is a progressive list (from easy to difficult):

1. The little pianist - op. 823 - elementary.

2. Five finger studies - 0p. 777 - elementary (the hands don't move)

3. Practical method for beginners - op. 599 - 100 exercises grouped according to the technical skill they are supposed to develop.

4. 30 new studies in technique - op. 849 - prepares for op. 299 below.

5. School of velocity - op. 299 - one of the most famous of Czerny's collections it might be a good starting point for you.

6. Preliminary school of finger dexterity, op. 636 - prepares for op. 740 below.

7. The art of finger dexterity - op. 740 - advanced exercises (and one of the most famous sets), but not as advanced as Moskowski or Chopin.

8. Studies for the left hand - op. 718. This is actually for two hands, but the right hand just plays the accompaniment.

Now forget about this rubbish, and play some Scarlatti instead.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[ted]

I have to agree with the previous posters. Playing the piano is about music. Those people are too dry and old fashioned to be of any use now. It's been a couple of hundred years since these things were written and the piano has since been played in many ways which are far more interesting. I'm in two minds as to whether the notion of a "study" has outlived its initial conception. Surely any vital modern piece of music is at least a "study" in many more senses of the word than these square-toed exercises. (I'm not talking about Chopin)

If you must do exercises then why not improvise your own for your specific needs and put some music into them while you're at it ?

[stephane]

My teacher asked me to start with op. 849 "etude de mécanisme".
Any idea where this should be put in the list?

Best regards,

Stephane

[bernhard]

My teacher asked me to start with op. 849 "etude de mécanisme".
Any idea where this should be put in the list?

Best regards,

Stephane

Yes. They come just before Op. 299 (and prepare for it). It is actually on my list above (no. 4), I just forgot to put the opus number, and I have now corrected it.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[stephane]

Thanks Bernard.

Language differences don't always help. Good thing they found out Opus numbers.

Best regards,

Stephane

[steve jones]

Berhnard,

You may have answered this numerous times already, but I wondered what exactly you dont like about the Czerny stuff?

Iv used his '160 Exercises' book and Iv found it a real help. Sometimes tackling entire pieces full of difficult technical passages can be a little daunting for me. So these condensed mini-studies are just what the docter ordered.

Im sure there is much Czerny wont prepare you for, but as a (fairly painless) way to develop some of the basic piano techniques, I think his exercises are great.

What would do you suggest your students do to develop these fundamentals in place of such studies? Seriously, Id love to know because I'v found you advice golden!

Cheers

Steve J

[bernhard]

Berhnard,

You may have answered this numerous times already, but I wondered what exactly you dont like about the Czerny stuff?

Iv used his '160 Exercises' book and Iv found it a real help. Sometimes tackling entire pieces full of difficult technical passages can be a little daunting for me. So these condensed mini-studies are just what the docter ordered.

Im sure there is much Czerny wont prepare you for, but as a (fairly painless) way to develop some of the basic piano techniques, I think his exercises are great.

What would do you suggest your students do to develop these fundamentals in place of such studies? Seriously, Id love to know because I'v found you advice golden!

Cheers

Steve J

Czerny exercises are not musical enough. By the way, this is not to say that Czerny as a composer was lacking in that department. It is simply that he belonged to a school of pedagogy that believed in isolating and separating “technique” from “musicality”. I put both words in quotes, because again, these pedagogues (who besides Czerny include Hanon, Cortot, Dohnanyi, Pishcna etc. etc.) had a very peculiar notion of technique.

To discuss in detail every single point where these pedagogues are misguided will take a whole book, but they include wrong anatomical motions, wrong perception of movements, wrong concepts of how co-ordination and the nervous system works. This is to be expected: most of these pedagogues were living in the 19th century, early 20 th century when this information was either unavailable or difficult to come by. As a quick example, they devote page after page to the strengthening and independence of the 4th finger, when such goal is both unattainable (the 3rd, 4th and 5th fingers share tendons) and unnecessary (the problem only exists if you want to lift the 4th finger, but piano is played by pressing the fingers down). Or take Cortot who spends page after page dedicated to the mechanics of passing the thumb under. Again, a movement that cannot possibly work, and that is ultimately unnecessary (you can play every passage requiring the thumb to move without ever placing it under the hand).

But ultimately I ignore Czerny & co. simply because technique ultimately depends on the passage you are playing: it is not transferable. You may practise repeated notes until your fingers fall, the fact remains that the technique to do repeated notes in Scarlatti’s sonata k 141 is completely different from the technique to do it in Beethoven’s Fur Elise. Both have to be learned in their own terms.

However, Czerny did write a few exercises which I personally like to play as pieces of music. That being the case, I have nothing against it.

In short: all you need is already in the pieces you would love to play. And working on Czerny is not really going to help you in that department (even though it may look this way). So ultimately it is a waste of time. As you get older, you begin to value time highly.

Here is some more information:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/board,4/topic,4880.3.html#msg46319
(discusses how to acquire technique and what technique actually is)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1918.msg15015.html#msg15015
(Thumb under/over – detailed explanation – Fosberry flop)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2502.msg21594.html#msg21594
(Independence of the 3rd and 4thfinger – it is impossible, one should work towards the illusion of independence: it is all arm work)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2507.msg21688.html#msg21688
(Round fingers – the role of fingers)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1808.msg23879.html#msg23879
(Ultra fast arpeggios – slow practice x slow motion practice – good post by Herve – Abby whiteside is also mentioned)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2814.msg24872.html#msg24872
(How a student’s physicality affects teaching – discussion on arm x fingers – moving from the centre: tantien and taichi – Seymour Fink gets discussed as well)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2809.msg25013.html#msg25013
(Body movement – piano playing and martial arts)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2948.msg25927.html#msg25927
(Czerny x Scarlatti to acquire technique – Ted gives an excellent contribution)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3100.msg27113.html#msg27113
(thumb over – hand displacement – practising with awareness – awareness is not thinking – learning by imitation)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3987.msg36197.html#msg36197
(etudes and alternatives to them)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4082.msg37362.html#msg37362
(one cannot learn technique in a vacuum. At the same time one cannot simply play pieces – comparison with tennis)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4182.msg38775.html#msg38775
(Hanon: pros and cons – Robert Henry’s opinion)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4385.msg41226.html#msg41226
(technique is personal and relative to the piece – Fosberry flop – the best books on technique)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4734.msg44770.html#msg44770
(how to acquire virtuoso technique – aiming at 100 pieces in five years)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4880.msg46339.html#msg46339
(definition of technique: quote from Fink, Sandor and Pires – Example of the A-E-A arpeggio)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4887.msg47334.html#msg47334
(more on Hanon)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5034.msg47829.html#msg47829
(The finger strength controversy – some excellent posts by xvimbi)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5352.msg50998.html#msg50998
(Exercises x repertory – why technique cannot be isolated from music)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5375.msg51272.html#msg51272
(Defending technicalexercises – two different philosophies regarding exercises – chopstick analogy)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7226.msg72166.html#msg72166
(Thumb over is a misnomer: it consists of co-ordinating four separate movements).

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7887.msg79326.html#msg79326
(why the lifting of the 4th finger is a non-problem)

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,7341.msg114168.html#msg114168
(repeated note-groups for difficult passages – correct technique is never uncomfortable – rotation as the solution to 5th finger weakness – criticism to misguided technical exercises – trusting the unconscious)

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,7175.msg114163.html#msg114163
(wrist action – the movements that should be avoided when playing and the movements that should be used).

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,2619.msg104249.html#msg104249
(Scale fingering must be modified according to the piece – Godard op. 149 no.5 – yet another example of the folly of technical exercises)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2998.msg26268.html#msg26268
(Scales HT, why? – why and when to practise scales HS and HT – Pragmatical  x logical way of teaching – analogy with aikido – list of piano techniques – DVORAK – realistic x sports martial arts – technique and how to acquire it by solving technical problems – Hanon and why it should be avoided - Lemmings)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4123.msg37829.html#msg37829
(How to investigate the best movement pattern: Example Scarlatti sonata K70 – How to work out the best fingering. Example: CPE Bach Allegro in A – Slow x slow motion practice – HS x HT – practising for only 5 – 10 minutes)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3625.msg32673.html#msg32673
(PPI –  comparison with body building – brief mention of movement and intellectual centre – comparison with babies walking and coma patients- muscle tension and nerve inhibition – how to investigate and test practice ideas – How to teach by using progressively difficult repertory)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2429.msg21061.html#msg21061
(Technical studies x pieces – the genesis of Studies and how Czerny derived his exercises from Beethoven sonatas - why scales are useless and at the same time essential – Chopin x Kalkbrenner story – Unorthodox fingering for scales).

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1867.msg14268.html#msg14268
(Getting technique from pieces – several important tricks: hand memory, dropping notes, repeated note-groups)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4145.msg38568.html#msg38568
(beginner’s muscle development – anatomy of the hand forearm – true reasons for extremely slow practice)

(Tip of the iceberg )

Ah, yes, you asked what to play instead of Czerny. Besides the pieces you love, I usually encourage my students to work on Scarlatti sonatas, Bach inventions and sinfonias and the WTC, Beethoven sonatas and Chopin etudes. Master those and you will have more technique than you will have use for. (And they are lovely pieces).

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Bouter Boogie]

I think the answer could be don't start.

The Moszkowski and Chopin are far better than anything you will see from Czerny.

I agree. I started Czerny's etudies years ago and now I only play Moszkowski and Chopin etudies. Don't do it the other way around, that's my advice.

- BB