Berhnard,
You may have answered this numerous times already, but I wondered what exactly you dont like about the Czerny stuff?
Iv used his '160 Exercises' book and Iv found it a real help. Sometimes tackling entire pieces full of difficult technical passages can be a little daunting for me. So these condensed mini-studies are just what the docter ordered.
Im sure there is much Czerny wont prepare you for, but as a (fairly painless) way to develop some of the basic piano techniques, I think his exercises are great.
What would do you suggest your students do to develop these fundamentals in place of such studies? Seriously, Id love to know because I'v found you advice golden!
Cheers
Steve J
Czerny exercises are not musical enough. By the way, this is not to say that Czerny as a composer was lacking in that department. It is simply that he belonged to a school of pedagogy that believed in isolating and separating “technique” from “musicality”. I put both words in quotes, because again, these pedagogues (who besides Czerny include Hanon, Cortot, Dohnanyi, Pishcna etc. etc.) had a very peculiar notion of technique.
To discuss in detail every single point where these pedagogues are misguided will take a whole book, but they include wrong anatomical motions, wrong perception of movements, wrong concepts of how co-ordination and the nervous system works. This is to be expected: most of these pedagogues were living in the 19th century, early 20 th century when this information was either unavailable or difficult to come by. As a quick example, they devote page after page to the strengthening and independence of the 4th finger, when such goal is both unattainable (the 3rd, 4th and 5th fingers share tendons) and unnecessary (the problem only exists if you want to lift the 4th finger, but piano is played by pressing the fingers
down). Or take Cortot who spends page after page dedicated to the mechanics of passing the thumb under. Again, a movement that cannot possibly work, and that is ultimately unnecessary (you can play every passage requiring the thumb to move without ever placing it under the hand).
But ultimately I ignore Czerny & co. simply because technique ultimately depends on the passage you are playing: it is not transferable. You may practise repeated notes until your fingers fall, the fact remains that the technique to do repeated notes in Scarlatti’s sonata k 141 is completely different from the technique to do it in Beethoven’s Fur Elise. Both have to be learned in their own terms.
However, Czerny did write a few exercises which I personally like to play as
pieces of music. That being the case, I have nothing against it.
In short: all you need is already in the pieces you would love to play. And working on Czerny is not really going to help you in that department (even though it may look this way). So ultimately it is a waste of time. As you get older, you begin to value time highly.
Here is some more information:
https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/board,4/topic,4880.3.html#msg46319(discusses how to acquire technique and what technique actually is)
https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1918.msg15015.html#msg15015(Thumb under/over – detailed explanation – Fosberry flop)
https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2502.msg21594.html#msg21594(Independence of the 3rd and 4thfinger – it is impossible, one should work towards the illusion of independence: it is all arm work)
https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2507.msg21688.html#msg21688(Round fingers – the role of fingers)
https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1808.msg23879.html#msg23879(Ultra fast arpeggios – slow practice x slow motion practice – good post by Herve – Abby whiteside is also mentioned)
https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2814.msg24872.html#msg24872(How a student’s physicality affects teaching – discussion on arm x fingers – moving from the centre: tantien and taichi – Seymour Fink gets discussed as well)
https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2809.msg25013.html#msg25013(Body movement – piano playing and martial arts)
https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2948.msg25927.html#msg25927(Czerny x Scarlatti to acquire technique – Ted gives an excellent contribution)
https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3100.msg27113.html#msg27113(thumb over – hand displacement – practising with awareness – awareness is not thinking – learning by imitation)
https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3987.msg36197.html#msg36197(etudes and alternatives to them)
https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4082.msg37362.html#msg37362(one cannot learn technique in a vacuum. At the same time one cannot simply play pieces – comparison with tennis)
https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4182.msg38775.html#msg38775(Hanon: pros and cons – Robert Henry’s opinion)
https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4385.msg41226.html#msg41226(technique is personal and relative to the piece – Fosberry flop – the best books on technique)
https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4734.msg44770.html#msg44770(how to acquire virtuoso technique – aiming at 100 pieces in five years)
https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4880.msg46339.html#msg46339(definition of technique: quote from Fink, Sandor and Pires – Example of the A-E-A arpeggio)
https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4887.msg47334.html#msg47334(more on Hanon)
https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5034.msg47829.html#msg47829(The finger strength controversy – some excellent posts by xvimbi)
https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5352.msg50998.html#msg50998(Exercises x repertory – why technique cannot be isolated from music)
https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5375.msg51272.html#msg51272(Defending technicalexercises – two different philosophies regarding exercises – chopstick analogy)
https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7226.msg72166.html#msg72166(Thumb over is a misnomer: it consists of co-ordinating four separate movements).
https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7887.msg79326.html#msg79326(why the lifting of the 4th finger is a non-problem)
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,7341.msg114168.html#msg114168(repeated note-groups for difficult passages – correct technique is never uncomfortable – rotation as the solution to 5th finger weakness – criticism to misguided technical exercises – trusting the unconscious)
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,7175.msg114163.html#msg114163(wrist action – the movements that should be avoided when playing and the movements that should be used).
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,2619.msg104249.html#msg104249(Scale fingering must be modified according to the piece – Godard op. 149 no.5 – yet another example of the folly of technical exercises)
https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2998.msg26268.html#msg26268(Scales HT, why? – why and when to practise scales HS and HT – Pragmatical x logical way of teaching – analogy with aikido – list of piano techniques – DVORAK – realistic x sports martial arts – technique and how to acquire it by solving technical problems – Hanon and why it should be avoided - Lemmings)
https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4123.msg37829.html#msg37829(How to investigate the best movement pattern: Example Scarlatti sonata K70 – How to work out the best fingering. Example: CPE Bach Allegro in A – Slow x slow motion practice – HS x HT – practising for only 5 – 10 minutes)
https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3625.msg32673.html#msg32673(PPI – comparison with body building – brief mention of movement and intellectual centre – comparison with babies walking and coma patients- muscle tension and nerve inhibition – how to investigate and test practice ideas – How to teach by using progressively difficult repertory)
https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2429.msg21061.html#msg21061(Technical studies x pieces – the genesis of Studies and how Czerny derived his exercises from Beethoven sonatas - why scales are useless and at the same time essential – Chopin x Kalkbrenner story – Unorthodox fingering for scales).
https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1867.msg14268.html#msg14268(Getting technique from pieces – several important tricks: hand memory, dropping notes, repeated note-groups)
https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4145.msg38568.html#msg38568(beginner’s muscle development – anatomy of the hand forearm – true reasons for extremely slow practice)
(Tip of the iceberg
)
Ah, yes, you asked what to play instead of Czerny. Besides the pieces you love, I usually encourage my students to work on Scarlatti sonatas, Bach inventions and sinfonias and the WTC, Beethoven sonatas and Chopin etudes. Master those and you will have more technique than you will have use for. (And they are lovely pieces).
Best wishes,
Bernhard.
Topic: Czerny - Where to Start