who is the female pianist with the best technique?

[stevie]

off the top of my head there are a few that stick out

rebecca penneys - for her chopin etudes
valentina lisitsa - for her random videos
martha argerich - for many things, espcially liszt sonata, funerailles, etc

[mrchops10]

Do we really need a separate category for "female pianists?" This isn't basketball--Martha Argerich et al have technique on the level of any great pianists. It doesn't seem that gender really affects this at all, I'm not even a woman and I'm a little bit offended. Why don't we ask something like "which pianist with webbed feet/a third nipple/yellow teeth has the best technique?" It would be about as relevant.

[thalbergmad]

Very valid point.

Which penguin has the best technique?

[stevie]

Do we really need a separate category for "female pianists?" This isn't basketball--Martha Argerich et al have technique on the level of any great pianists. It doesn't seem that gender really affects this at all, I'm not even a woman and I'm a little bit offended. Why don't we ask something like "which pianist with webbed feet/a third nipple/yellow teeth has the best technique?" It would be about as relevant.

no, really, females in general, in my experience, have inferior technique to males.
it may only be slight, but they often lack power and a rounded forte sound.

argerich et al do NOT have a technique on the level of hamelin and libetta.

no female has their level of technique, and i have to wonder why...are females less competitive, less obsessed?

[stevie]

a friend of mine proposes that -

'females need to practice longer and harder to get the same level of technique, due to their smaller brain'

obviously he is a bit sexist, but he actually believes that.
interesting.

[yoshiki]

'due to their smaller brain'

I beleive females have smaller hands .
But the way, how can you explain why there are so many females piano teacher around?

[m1469]

But the way, how can you explain why there are so many females piano teacher around?

Well, we can already predict how this one's going to go 

[JCarey]

Well, we can already predict how this one's going to go 

Hopefully, it will be an intelligent, objective, fact-based discussion, between both males and females interested in the topic of whether sex affects pianistic ability.

If I am correct in understanding the meaning of the topic, Stevie had asked which female pianist had the best technique, so he could compare their technical ability with that of male pianists to find whether there are, indeed, female pianists that can play as well as Hamelin or Libetta.

Do females have a smaller brain? Possibly, though I have never looked into this. But I do believe that Stevie is right when he says that female pianists generally cannot play as well as Hamelin/Libetta. This is not a sexist remark. This is what I have concluded from personal experience. If somebody can prove me wrong (and I'm sure someone can) then please do so.

Martha Argerich is an exception. She plays very well technically, but musically she is very lacking. However, Olga Kern plays well both technically and musically.

Are either of them as good as Hamelin or Libetta? Probably not, since very few, including males, are. Whether this is related to the size of their brain or not, I do not know. Perhaps someone could research this.

I heard that Clara Schumann was just as good, if not better, of a pianist than Robert Schumann, by the way.

[m1469]

Hopefully, it will be an intelligent, objective, fact-based discussion, between both males and females interested in the topic of whether sex affects pianistic ability.

Well, I just wonder what, exactly, would ever truly prove this for anybody ?  There are simply too many factors involved. 

[stevie]

we are talking raw technical ability.

i simply havent heard any female pianist with a technique that approaches hamelin, libetta, etc.

handsize can be a factor, but libetta's hands arent any larger than the average female pianist's hands.

[JCarey]

Well, I just wonder what, exactly, would ever truly prove this for anybody ?  There are simply too many factors involved. 

True. I doubt it can truly be proven. And even if scientists had "proven" that females had a smaller brain, or whatever, many would refuse to believe it.

For what it's worth, I think females can do anything males do. I have never doubted this, nor have I believed that either sex is superior or inferior.

[brewtality]

Joyce Hatto has played Chopin-Godowsky studies since she was 13 (not all of them at that age obviously). I haven't heard her playing but its supposed to be good.

[stevie]

True. I doubt it can truly be proven. And even if scientists had "proven" that females had a smaller brain, or whatever, many would refuse to believe it.

For what it's worth, I think females can do anything males do. I have never doubted this, nor have I believed that either sex is superior or inferior.

female brains are obviously smaller, the average is 10% smaller, like the body size ratio.

but this has virtually no bearing on intelligence, whales have huge brains but havent anywhere near human intelligence.

if not mental, maybe males have superior physical apparatus for piano playing?

[m1469]

True. I doubt it can truly be proven. And even if scientists had "proven" that females had a smaller brain, or whatever, many would refuse to believe it.

 

It is more a matter of whether social or other theoretical/philosophical limitations are forever placed upon people for whatever the reason.   Those are the things that anyone, in my opinion, should simply refuse to buy into, no matter who tells them what.   Furthermore, everyone has seeming "limitations" stemming from whatever cause, and the good news is that these limitations can be overcome   


m1469

[practicingnow]

Lisitsa

[pianistimo]

why is the 'best technique,' 'fastest player,' etc. very important.  my teacher implys that musicality and listening to oneself is far more important.  very slow movements can be very beautiful.  also, very fast and light movements such as in bach and scarlatti.  women can be lighter players, but still very strong.  i can get a triple forte now, but it is in relation to the other dynamics and not out to break the strings anymore (even in beethoven).  i thought it was a sign of a great pianist to be able to have such a noticeable 'technique.'  now, i realize, it's all about taste.  just like mozart said.  to have it 'flow like oil.'  or, if you are playing a contemporary piece (or romantic) to understand it and have a grasp of what the composer was trying to portray or what you yourself understand the piece to mean. 

of the many students i've heard in various master classes, many were very 'inhibited' players.  i count myself among them.  it takes a long time to let go of fears and not be so 'careful.'  guys (i hope i am not saying this out of turn) seem to let go, but sometimes are too bold and brash in places (some players/but not all).  and, i think women are naturally able and more inclined to be more demonstrative in their playing, whereas some men seem more 'stiff' even when they 'let go.'  this may not make sense at first, but you often see women play in a more relaxed manner (they have learned to deal with stress long ago).  whereas guys have naturally more muscles, so they have to 'tone down' the sounds when they want to produce a beautful soft sound or hold out notes with a sort of 'melting chocolate' technique that comes easy to women.

women look better on stage. 

women feel better about themselves on stage.

some women, just like to BE on stage. 

it's rather exhibitionistic if you think about it.  men may think they are the more comfortable, but when a female pianist gets really good, they are more appealing to watch (graceful). 

women don't wear those awful tails.  i mean that's penguinish.

women don't have big feet.

women can pedal lighter.

in general - women are just made to play the piano (being 10% shorter, unless tall) because they are usually closer to the keys - therefore making playing easier.

who's the best female pianist?  alicia delarrochia, imo.

ps  i don't consider myself a feminist, really, and actually prefer to watch a man play.  this doesn't discredit what i have said, but just emphasizes that there IS something to stage presence and appeal.  i mean, either a man or a woman, if they are self-confident and have something to share, can be equally appealing.

[stevie]

but im talking about pure virtuosity, speed, power, endurance, and coordination of the most impossibly difficult passages.

[pianistimo]

that only impresses women if a man is playing.  if a woman wants to impress a man, she does it with more conservative playing, i think, and more taste.

[stevie]

that only impresses women if a man is playing.  if a woman wants to impress a man, she does it with more conservative playing, i think, and more taste.

maybe, but its obvious some female piansits play to the peak of their physical abilities sometimes, and then is when it invites comparison with male counterparts.

the question isnt what women should play like, its more about wondering if they actually CAN replicate the virtuosic feats of the top male virtuosos.

[pianistimo]

i once heard john browning.  i loved his playing.  and, i cut out his pic out of the paper and saved it in a box (along with a bunch of other pics).  now you know how crazy i am.  BUT, never once did i think to myself, 'i want to play just like him.'  No.  I want to play like myself.  i want people to say, when they hear me, that's her.  that's her playing.  like a fingerprint.

[stevie]

right, but what

[pianistimo]

i think women can be just as fast, coordinated, maybe not as 'powerful' and 'endurance' related, but possibly (depending on the woman).  it's sometimes, for me, good days and bad days.  if i have a really good day (talking about practicing) i can play for seven hours straight.  that's endurance.  but, i don't try to play really difficult music the entire time.  i try to alternate between some easy stuff and harder stuff (my hard stuff is easy to my teacher).  for some pianists, they don't think about the specifics of the technique as much as the mental understanding of the piece they are playing.  i mean, if you focus on a particular passage too much you are focusing your mind to 'get through it' instead of incorporating it into the bigger picture.  when an artist plays, you don't get the sense of any anticipation of what's to come beyond the story telling that unfolds. you don't get a wierd look on the face (like uh oh, here comes the really difficult parts), or TOO concentrated (bathroom look) because of the hours and hours of practice put into making it a total performance. 

i guess i understand your curiosity and desire to see a woman just bash a piece and walk away.  i'll do it for you sometime with mussorgsky's pic's at and exhibition if you want.  maybe in a few years.  i'm still working on it.

[nanabush]

Some women are pretty damn strong, and some male pianists are little ppl.... so maybe you could say could that little man ever play as well as this strong woman... lol never mind

[thalbergmad]

Winifred Atwell

[leahcim]

Which penguin has the best technique?

Tux

[maxy]

funny...

I recently read some article that said something about the modern piano being built for men.  It went on, saying that if the keys were smaller, that if the instrument was more closely adapted to the females, they would outshine men by far since they naturally have much more nimble fingers...

[ramseytheii]

It is more a matter of whether social or other theoretical/philosophical limitations are forever placed upon people for whatever the reason.   Those are the things that anyone, in my opinion, should simply refuse to buy into, no matter who tells them what.   Furthermore, everyone has seeming "limitations" stemming from whatever cause, and the good news is that these limitations can be overcome 


m1469

unlike the conducting or composing world, I can't see any limitations on the women pianists in the Piano world.  There have got to be 3 times as many women students as there are men, and i am sure in most studios, the best students get the most attention, not just the male ones!

Walter Ramsey

[maryruth]

Perhaps the problem with women's technique is that we are generally left to play pieces written by men.  Perhaps what we really need are pieces written by women.  If the tables were turned and men were left to play pieces written by woman would they be able to play them as well?  And would what constitutes superior technique be made of different elements?

[piazzo23]

Is speed related to brain size?!

Anyway, male pianists are gay and female pianists are lesbians.

[timothy42b]

Wouldn't you think social factors account for most of the differences, if they exist?

The biggest factor is probably group vs individual.  Adolescent females are pack animals.  You never see just one.  Adolescent males are much more comfortable with solitary activities.  Piano is not a group function.  Right there you are going to have a much larger group of male pianists to choose from. 

If strength were important males would have an edge, obviously.  Women do not as a rule hypertrophy regardless of what kind of weight training regimen they try, because of the hormone levels in the cells.  But it is not at all clear to me that piano demands a weightlifting level of strength. 

There was an interesting segment on "Echo Boomers" on 60 minutes last night, and that may have some relevance as well. 

[arensky]

                                 Which penguin has the best technique?

                 Josef Hoffman! He was known as the Penguin for some reason...

[goansongo]

Men pianist, for the most part, seem to be better (or at least more prolific) than women pianists...

[quasimodo]

Lisitsa, most probably.

And maybe she's not technically as good as the likes of Hamelin or Volodos, but she's quite superior to average of male players (I find Listsa VERY VERY musical, btw, and that matters much more than technique isn't it  ).

"Best technique" is also very relative and subjective, so the discussion is maybe, er..., pointless   

[thalbergmad]

funny...

I recently read some article that said something about the modern piano being built for men.  It went on, saying that if the keys were smaller, that if the instrument was more closely adapted to the females, they would outshine men by far since they naturally have much more nimble fingers...

If a piano was built with females in mind, it would have an inbuilt ironing board

[xvimbi]

If a piano was built with females in mind, it would have an inbuilt ironing board

That's what the lid is for!

[thierry13]

My biology teacher ( wich is female), told us that the brain had two sections. The logical part, and the emotional part. The males have a much more developed logical brain than females. Females have a more developed emotional part. Doesn't mean they will have more emotions than us, but more that they will be more affected by their feelings than us. So, males have a superior technical/logical brain. Wich explains they have better technic, their brain can understand perfectly at higher speed. Girls will just have to feel special, so they will use dicipline, and learn following their emotional instinct more.

[pianodaria]

Eliso Virsaladze is  the best female pianist out there. Alicia de Larrocha playing Spanish music is fantastic, too.

I think there is no significant advantage of the gender in music, and this could be argued from physical and emotional points of view, only there has not been a pianist of either gender born since Rachmaninov that would inherit all the qualities he had, in the same rich combination and strength.

[m1469]

The males have a much more developed logical brain than females.  Females have a more developed emotional part.

Yeah... those developed logical brains, constantly getting men into fist fights with each other... starting wars, forgetting what they're fighting for (or never really knowing in the first place).  Now there's some logic I should really get around to learnin' from 

[piazzo23]

Yeah... those developed logical brains, constantly getting men into fist fights with each other... starting wars, forgetting what they're fighting for (or never really knowing in the first place).  Now there's some logic I should really get around to learnin' from 

Don´t worry, there´s not a single cientist that understands how brain works yet.
This things posted are nonsense.

[m1469]

Don´t worry, there´s not a single cientist that understands how brain works yet.
This things posted are nonsense.

Which is exactly why thierry *decided* to state that "his teacher" is a woman. 

At first us women are supposed to respect this woman teacher and what she says, because she is a woman saying it.  Then, once the information gets proven wrong, or ridiculous, it will be pointed out that an illogical woman stated it. 

[thierry13]

Yeah... those developed logical brains, constantly getting men into fist fights with each other... starting wars, forgetting what they're fighting for (or never really knowing in the first place).  Now there's some logic I should really get around to learnin' from 

You see, you're the proof girls are less logical than guys. It's not that KIND of logic. It's logic like solving math logic problems. So what I meant is guys are BASICALLY better in maths, and THOSE KIND of logics, than girls.

[thierry13]

Which is exactly why thierry *decided* to state that "his teacher" is a woman. 

At first us women are supposed to respect this woman teacher and what she says, because she is a woman saying it.  Then, once the information gets proven wrong, or ridiculous, it will be pointed out that an illogical woman stated it. 

My teacher was far from illogical. She is a biology teacher, once was a doctor. She did many researches when she was doctor, and some on the brain. I think she knows better than you what she's talking about. You see, you now are emotionally schocked to know basically girls are less good in maths that guys. So you let it influence your logic, and assume my teacher was illogical, without even knowing her. I didn't said all guys are smarter than girls, I said that the midle guy is more intelligent than the middle girl, but still, there are TONS of girls who are more intelligent than guys. Still, basically, girls have a less logic brain mathematically.

[pianistimo]

i think it is what people in general are told they can and can't do.  or shouldn't do.  or might not be able to do because of a percieved 'problem.'   my neighbor, who is female, has a phd and a house of her own.  she is japanese, and in that culture the mothers really encourage the daughters to be independent.  never underestimate the power of a woman (who is determined).  it's kinda dependent on hormones too.  right about the time most women start taking off in their 'careers' they have children (maybe two or three or four).  if you are single, or married w/out children, it's probably different during the 20's and 30's.  i think piano is like riding a bike.  if you learn while you're young, and keep up some kind of practice - it will still be there when you are older.

that's where i am right now. in my 40's and attempting a comeback.  we'll see.  even if the worst happens and i don't perform a lot (soloing), i'll be really happy just to have my skills given a boost and do accompanying for church/choirs and possibly gigs at restaurants and hopefully longwood gardens (places like that). 

[musik_man]

Ummm, did someone say that Agerich is not Hamelin's equal because of musicality!?!  I'd rather listen to my dentist sing while he's drilling my teeth than listen to Hamelin.

[chromatickler]

My teacher was far from illogical. She is a biology teacher, once was a doctor. She did many researches when she was doctor, and some on the brain. I think she knows better than you what she's talking about. You see, you now are emotionally schocked to know basically girls are less good in maths that guys. So you let it influence your logic, and assume my teacher was illogical, without even knowing her. I didn't said all guys are smarter than girls, I said that the midle guy is more intelligent than the middle girl, but still, there are TONS of girls who are more intelligent than guys. Still, basically, girls have a less logic brain mathematically.

she took 4 lines to make fun of you, while you took 8 lines to convey your discomfort at being made fun of by a woman. it's not hard to see who's the more emotionally influenced here.

[piazzo23]

Ummm, did someone say that Agerich is not Hamelin's equal because of musicality!?!  I'd rather listen to my dentist sing while he's drilling my teeth than listen to Hamelin.

Agreed.

[piazzo23]

My biology teacher ( wich is female), told us that the brain had two sections. The logical part, and the emotional part. The males have a much more developed logical brain than females. Females have a more developed emotional part. Doesn't mean they will have more emotions than us, but more that they will be more affected by their feelings than us. So, males have a superior technical/logical brain. Wich explains they have better technic, their brain can understand perfectly at higher speed. Girls will just have to feel special, so they will use dicipline, and learn following their emotional instinct more.

I thought it was the other way around.
Any scientist here?

Not that this has anything to do with technique anyway. Any motor activity depends on procedural memory and neural plasticity, not logical thinking, so...

[m1469]

You see, you're the proof girls are less logical than guys. It's not that KIND of logic. It's logic like solving math logic problems. So what I meant is guys are BASICALLY better in maths, and THOSE KIND of logics, than girls.

My point is actually less on the side of pointing out any kind or type of logical reaction, and more on the side of pointing out an emotional reaction.
 

My teacher was far from illogical. She is a biology teacher, once was a doctor. She did many researches when she was doctor, and some on the brain. I think she knows better than you what she's talking about. You see, you now are emotionally schocked to know basically girls are less good in maths that guys. So you let it influence your logic, and assume my teacher was illogical, without even knowing her. I didn't said all guys are smarter than girls, I said that the midle guy is more intelligent than the middle girl, but still, there are TONS of girls who are more intelligent than guys. Still, basically, girls have a less logic brain mathematically.

Other than that, you don't truly expect me to take these seriously, do you ?   Anyway, I am not here to fight you, Mr thierry.  I just think it's silly when people try to say this kind of stuff.  Think of me what you will.


m1469 


ps-  I was not trying to make fun of you.  I know you didn't say I was, but I just want to be clear, I was never intending to personally attack you.

pss-  I mostly think this subject is moot.  I think this thread was created mainly to get an emotional reaction out of people like me.  So, you know, I'm a curious person.  Sometimes I do go ahead and bite the bait a little. 

                                                                     
                                               

[thierry13]

she took 4 lines to make fun of you, while you took 8 lines to convey your discomfort at being made fun of by a woman. it's not hard to see who's the more emotionally influenced here.

I was explaining my facts.

[thierry13]

I thought it was the other way arround.
Any scientist here?

Not that this has anything to do with technique anyway. Any motor activity depends on procedural memory and neural plasticity, not logical thinking, so...

It is in the same part of the brain. This part is like all what's math and science related. The scientifical part of music, is analised by this part of the mind. And how you play what your brain as analised, is reffered by your emotional brain-side.