Rachmaninov Second Concerto Ripped off of Tchaikovsky First

[mike_lang]

Has anyone heard this?  My piano teacher, a composer, suggested this idea to me while I was learning the Tchaikovsky.  He says that Rachmaninov even acknowledged that he stole his ideas for the Second Concerto from Tchaikovsky's first.  Is this true, or is it still within the realm of music being built off of other music over time?

[frederic]

if so, please give us an example of where you think the two pieces sound similar. I highly doubt this however.

[mike_lang]

I ask because I can't figure this one out - I'm just wondering if anyone else has heard the same thing.

[raskolnikov]

You should probably do a harmonic analysis of the score.  That would be a good first start.

[superstition2]

No. He used Grieg's concerto as the model for his first concerto. And, you will hear motifs ripped from Tchaikovsky in the original version of the first concerto. However, the revised version removed some brilliant pyrotechnics and some good ideas.

Rachmaninov had the tendency when making revisions to take away useful transitional music (music that joins one idea to the next). The fourth concerto suffered the most from the loss of such music, rendering the final version nearly incoherant, although still very enjoyable given a good performance.

[lisztisforkids]

I would say Rachmaninoff was more influenced by say Rimsky-Korsakov...

[christiaan]

Rachmaninov Second Concerto Ripped off of Tchaikovsky First? YES!!!!!!!!!!!

Although it sounds completely different (obviously) the form of both 3rd movements are exactly the same. Both have the main theme played by the strings and answered by the piano in dialogue form in two places in different keys. Before the grand finale both concertos have an "cadenza" ( Tchaikovsky=octaves, Rachmaninov=glissando/arpeggio outburst) and then the main theme is played sFF by both pianist and orchestra.

O, and the structure of both second movements are the same!

[hodi]

it doesn't matter, rach2 is still way better than tchai1

[clavicembalisticum]

No. He used Grieg's concerto as the model for his first concerto. And, you will hear motifs ripped from Tchaikovsky in the original version of the first concerto. However, the revised version removed some brilliant pyrotechnics and some good ideas.

Rachmaninov had the tendency when making revisions to take away useful transitional music (music that joins one idea to the next). The fourth concerto suffered the most from the loss of such music, rendering the final version nearly incoherant, although still very enjoyable given a good performance.

Here you go, one who actually pays respect to detail rather than the superficial touch of "yay it is ripped". There is nothing "ripped". Similarities in form and texture do exist, and both concertos owe a lot to the form of their "archetype" which *is* the Grieg, in the very broad sense of form; but I would say that this is where they mostly stop. Tchaikovsky adopted some of Grieg's ideas for this concerto, don't forget that he admired Grieg, dedicating to him his Hamlet Overture of 1888. Rachmaninoff has also admitted various times his admiration for the Grieg concerto. The best way to get the striking formal similarity is to remember the "big tune" finish of every one. It was a question of time until someone else followed down the same path. Saying that the Rach 2 is "ripped" is kind of rushed in my very humble opinion. Strongly influenced yes. But ripped, no. It would be much more just to say that Tchaikovsky ripped a lot of Ukraine folksongs.

I also agree for the second part.

To be honest, my favorite Tchaikovsky concerto remains no 2. It is a much more cohere work that is unfortunately not widely played.

[mike_lang]

I apologize for my terminology.  Although I don't feel quite so strongly, I felt it was necessary to use such language as "ripped" in the title of the thread in order to attract attention.  After all, who would respond to a thread entitled "Rachmaninov 2 and Tchaikovsky 1: Compare and Contrast."?

I started this thread when my teacher, Emile Naoumoff, suggested a striking similarity between the two concerti, which I could not see beyond one chordal passage.  My question is if anyone else saw things in  the Rach 2nd that appeared to be directly influenced by the Tchaikovsky concerto.

Best,

Michael Langlois