Second Greatest composer for Piano after Beethoven

[presto agitato]

Beethoven wrote the best music for piano ever. That is the opinion of musicologists, teachers, concert pianists, conductors, mélomanes etc.

So , whos the best after him?

This not a matter of tastes. Example: I like more Glinka than Chopin, but i must accept that Chopin wrote better PIANO music than Glinka. Do you get the point?

After listening piano music for about ten years my conclusion is: Schubert is the best after Beethoven. His wonderful melodies are the main reason i choose him.  WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF HE WOULD NOT HAVE DIED SO YOUNG?

[orlandopiano]

Beethoven wrote the best music for piano ever. That is the opinion of musicologists, teachers, concert pianists, conductors, mélomanes etc.

So , whos the best after him?

This not a matter of tastes. Example: I like more Glinka than Chopin, but i must accept that Chopin wrote better PIANO music than Glinka. Do you get the point?

After listening piano music for about ten years my conclusion is: Schubert is the best after Beethoven. His wonderful melodies are the main reason i choose him.  WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF HE WOULD NOT HAVE DIED SO YOUNG?

Don't take this the wrong way, but you're crazy.

[emmdoubleew]

Beethoven wrote the best music for piano ever. That is the opinion of musicologists, teachers, concert pianists, conductors, mélomanes etc.

Hhahahahhaha WHAT THA FUNK HAVE YOU BEEN SMOKING?

[jre58591]

Beethoven wrote the best music for piano ever. That is the opinion of musicologists, teachers, concert pianists, conductors, mélomanes etc.

So , whos the best after him?

This not a matter of tastes. Example: I like more Glinka than Chopin, but i must accept that Chopin wrote better PIANO music than Glinka. Do you get the point?

After listening piano music for about ten years my conclusion is: Schubert is the best after Beethoven. His wonderful melodies are the main reason i choose him.  WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF HE WOULD NOT HAVE DIED SO YOUNG?

someone hasnt done their research, to put it lightly.

[musik_man]

Claiming Beethoven to be the greatest anything(besides opera composer) is not crazy.

[soliloquy]

Claiming Beethoven to be the greatest anything(besides opera composer) is not crazy.

So it's totally sane to say Beethoven was the best gay erotic bestiality fiction poet?


Liszt, Alkan, Scriabin, Debussy are probably the best at what they did.

[airasia]

So it's totally sane to say Beethoven was the best gay erotic bestiality fiction poet?


Liszt, Alkan, Scriabin, Debussy are probably the best at what they did.

That may be your opinion, but most people (educated on the topic) find that much of Liszt's music lacks any real depth and emotion behind it, and was composed mostly for show.  And presto agitato is incorrect for saying that musicologists, composers, pianists, etc. generally find Beethoven to be the greatest composer?  That's what I thought too. 

[princess_moose]

In my opinion...Mozart,Chopin or Debussy.

[da jake]

Schubert - the greatest.

[presto agitato]

Schubert - the greatest.

After Beethoven?

[matt haley]

   i dont think its a laughable comment....

  beethoven was surely one of the greatest piano composers of all time....
and i dont care what anyone says, No One wrote sonatas like beethoven....

  so much colour and outstanding piano writing in his sonatas....

  that said i do think scarlatti and haydn sonatas never got the full credit they deserve....


Matt haley

[da jake]

After Beethoven?

After Bach.

[orlandopiano]

Schubert - the greatest.

As a melodist, Schubert comes close to rivaling Chopin.

At harmonizing those melodies and opening them up on the piano perfectly, he was twenty years behind.

[matt haley]

As a melodist, Schubert comes close to rivaling Chopin.

At harmonizing those melodies and opening them up on the piano perfectly, he was twenty years behind.

  i'l second that.....although he had some beautiful harmonies,for example the gflat impromptu, he never actually took his pieces to another leval........

  chopin was a true poet of the piano

[crazy for ivan moravec]

   chopin was a true poet of the piano

i even believe he wrote piano music better than beethoven did.

although i recognize that beethoven improved a lot of the pianistic techniques and even exhausted the capabilities of the instrument, i still think that what chopin wrote was piano music that could not be imagined played with any other instrument than the piano. it was perfectly written for the piano!

his piano writing is perfect. his melodies and harmonies were great. can't explain further but imo, Chopin wrote the MOST BEAUTIFUL PIANO MUSIC ever.

-END-

[matt haley]

i even believe he wrote piano music better than beethoven did.

although i recognize that beethoven improved a lot of the pianistic techniques and even exhausted the capabilities of the instrument, i still think that what chopin wrote was piano music that could not be imagined played with any other instrument than the piano. it was perfectly written for the piano!

can't explain further but imo, Chopin wrote the MOST BEAUTIFUL PIANO MUSIC ever.

-END-

completely agree with what crazy says........

as far as piano music goes.chopin composed the most amazing works............


preludes,mazurkas,etudes,sonatas,waltzes,ballades,polanaies,impromptus

this guy was a true poet,and i agree i think he did enough to be considered the best  but what i find scary.........

all this was wrote before he died at the tendure age of 37(i think), we can only guess how many other outstanding works he would of wrote if he had lived to say 70 like other composers...

if he had....there could of been 20 polanaies,10 sonatas,40 nocturnes,3 more sets of etudes...etc etc etc

this genius would have clearly sat out there on a mantle above the rest had he lived so long,even so that it he may of been considered by Everyone as the GREATEST....
 
Matt Haley

[da jake]

At harmonizing those melodies and opening them up on the piano perfectly, he was twenty years behind.

What on earth are you talking about. Schubert is probably the greatest master of harmony of all. Ever listen to the late sonatas. He was FAR ahead of Beethoven, Harmonically.

A piece like the Wanderer Fantasy is about 30 years ahead of it's time.

[thalbergmad]

What on earth are you talking about. Schubert is probably the greatest master of harmony of all. Ever listen to the late sonatas. He was FAR ahead of Beethoven, Harmonically.

A piece like the Wanderer Fantasy is about 30 years ahead of it's time.

Agreement

[jas]

i even believe he wrote piano music better than beethoven did.

although i recognize that beethoven improved a lot of the pianistic techniques and even exhausted the capabilities of the instrument, i still think that what chopin wrote was piano music that could not be imagined played with any other instrument than the piano. it was perfectly written for the piano!

his piano writing is perfect. his melodies and harmonies were great. can't explain further but imo, Chopin wrote the MOST BEAUTIFUL PIANO MUSIC ever.

-END-

I agree with this. I honestly believe that Chopin was the greatest composer for the piano who has ever lived.
Great as Beethoven's piano works are, they aren't particularly innovative in terms of piano composition.

Jas

[orlandopiano]

What on earth are you talking about. Schubert is probably the greatest master of harmony of all. Ever listen to the late sonatas. He was FAR ahead of Beethoven, Harmonically.

A piece like the Wanderer Fantasy is about 30 years ahead of it's time.

Read my response again. I was comparing Schubert with CHOPIN, not Beethoven.

[panic]

In my opinion Schubert's sonatas are just about as good as Beethoven's on average and I think he was just as good a piano composer.

I think Chopin was the greatest because of the textural mastery of his works. Just about all of these composers could write great melodies (except maybe for Liszt), but I have no idea how Chopin could have spun off the textures he did. It's not hard to see how Beethoven or Schubert or especially Liszt or Alkan could have built their textures, but Chopin's are pure mastery.

[presto agitato]

Who voted for Frack?

[jre58591]

Who voted for Franck?

hey, franck was a pretty good composer also. i dont know much about the guy or his works, but from what ive heard, he seems like he could qualify as a legend.

[presto agitato]

hey, franck was a pretty good composer also. i dont know much about the guy or his works, but from what ive heard, he seems like he could qualify as a legend.

He is Amazing. I love his works.

Alfred Cortot used to say that Frnack´s "Prelude, Chorale and Fugue" was the best piano piece ever composed.

[orlandopiano]

Who voted for Frack?

Why even put him on the list? I can probably count the number of Franck piano pieces on one hand.

[presto agitato]

Why even put him on the list? I can probably count the number of Franck piano pieces on one hand.

SO?

Quantity Doesn't Mean Quality

Remember that

[orlandopiano]

SO?

Quantity Doesn't Mean Quality

Remember that

I understand that, but we're talking five or six TOTAL piano solos. You really think it's fair to put such a person in the same class as Chopin, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Debussy etc?  How many of Franck's piano solos (outside of Prelude Chorale and Fugue) do you honestly think are worth calling piano masterpieces?

[presto agitato]

  How many of Franck's piano solos (outside of Prelude Chorale and Fugue) do you honestly think are worth calling piano masterpieces?

Prelude, Aria and Finale

Premier Grand Caprice

[steveie986]

Y'all are silly.

[apion]

Liszt is greatest.

[bach-liszt]

Legend has it that Beethoven kissed the youthful Liszt in appreciation after he played.  Liszt could run circles around his musical competitors.

[da jake]

Liszt wrote too much crap.

[orlandopiano]

Prelude, Aria and Finale

Premier Grand Caprice

I guess we have very different standards for what we consider a "masterpiece".

[jlh]

SO?

Quantity Doesn't Mean Quality

Remember that

True, but quality AND quantity means more.

[jas]

Y'all are silly.

Maybe we should all make posts as enlightening as your one instead, then?

[mila5405]

Chopin i s the best,, and Beethoven is also goode but he has anouther stile..

[mike_lang]

Of course Beethoven was one of the greatest composers, and piano was his instrument.  I think, though, that while their musical depth did not approach his, Chopin and Liszt knew better how to use the piano.  Behold the effects Liszt was able to attain with the transcendental etudes - maybe they're only a set of character pieces, but they get a sound from the piano Beethoven never got.

[stevie]

in my opinion, alkan's symphony for solo piano is a greater work than anything chopin wrote.
but i will concede that chopin's work, on the whole, was of more consistent quality.

so are composers defined by their greatest work, however few, or are they defined more by the consistency of greatness?

[forevere2]

Beethoven and Mozart (we're not really talking about him but whatever...) are OVERRATED. I mean they were good for early classical-romantic (if you can call it that), but remember the adjective "early". Sure they have wonderful pieces aside from the piano, but since this is PIANOFORUM, they lack true substance. Many of these pieces for piano are good, but only a handfull contain purity, and true piano musicality. An example of this is when you ask the average person (say Americans), Who's the Greatest Composer and what's the best piano piece? Answer: Beethoven, Fur elise or maybe the Moonlight Sonata. Yea... I hope you guys get what I meant by that...

Anyways, of quanity vs quality, if we were to make a graph of this plot, chopin's linear slope line would be the highest - meaning for a given quantity, his pieces contain the most quality. I agree that the pieces he wrote (not piano pieces) lacked substance, but since he focused particularly on the PIANO, he is far greater then Beethoven (whose main focus was NOT on just the piano). Listz was basically a show-off techincal composer, lacking real creativity (look at his paganini etudes, not original melodies) and musicality.

Back, Schubert, were definiately great composers. IMO, the list of Greatest composers and onwards is as follows...

Chopin, Schubert/Bach, Ravel, Listz/Beethoven/Mozart

Of course the more modern composers are not included.

[bearzinthehood]

Beethoven and Mozart (we're not really talking about him but whatever...) are OVERRATED. I mean they were good for early classical-romantic (if you can call it that), but remember the adjective "early". Sure they have wonderful pieces aside from the piano, but since this is PIANOFORUM, they lack true substance. Many of these pieces for piano are good, but only a handfull contain purity, and true piano musicality.

Beethoven went from classical to romantic and beyond.  I don't know what the **** you're talking about, but it must be coming out of your ass.  How much Beethoven have you even heard?

And you put Liszt in with Beethoven?  That makes me shudder.

[steveie986]

Beethoven and Mozart (we're not really talking about him but whatever...) are OVERRATED. I mean they were good for early classical-romantic (if you can call it that), but remember the adjective "early". Sure they have wonderful pieces aside from the piano, but since this is PIANOFORUM, they lack true substance. Many of these pieces for piano are good, but only a handfull contain purity, and true piano musicality. An example of this is when you ask the average person (say Americans), Who's the Greatest Composer and what's the best piano piece? Answer: Beethoven, Fur elise or maybe the Moonlight Sonata. Yea... I hope you guys get what I meant by that...

Anyways, of quanity vs quality, if we were to make a graph of this plot, chopin's linear slope line would be the highest - meaning for a given quantity, his pieces contain the most quality. I agree that the pieces he wrote (not piano pieces) lacked substance, but since he focused particularly on the PIANO, he is far greater then Beethoven (whose main focus was NOT on just the piano). Listz was basically a show-off techincal composer, lacking real creativity (look at his paganini etudes, not original melodies) and musicality.

Back, Schubert, were definiately great composers. IMO, the list of Greatest composers and onwards is as follows...

Chopin, Schubert/Bach, Ravel, Listz/Beethoven/Mozart

Of course the more modern composers are not included.

Most worthless drivel I've ever read on this forum.

[mike_lang]

Most worthless drivel I've ever read on this forum.

I don't think he believes it.  He must be just trying to get attention.

[forevere2]

Do you actually believe using profanity really builds your credibility?

It's nice to hear what you guys think, but do you really have to bash someone for expressing their opinion? Even if I don't agreeing with someone, I would defend to the death their right to express what they want to say.

And the whole post was in my opinion. Just cause I put liszt/mozart/beethoven together, I'm only comparing their piano pieces. The "dash" means that I'm not exactly sure which one is greater then which.

And its quite obvious that when it comes to "The greatest pianist" its COMPLETELY objective. Apparently some people don't understand that.

[steveie986]

Do you actually believe using profanity really builds your credibility?

It's nice to hear what you guys think, but do you really have to bash someone for expressing their opinion? Even if I don't agreeing with someone, I would defend to the death their right to express what they want to say.

And the whole post was in my opinion. Just cause I put liszt/mozart/beethoven together, I'm only comparing their piano pieces. The "dash" means that I'm not exactly sure which one is greater then which.

And its quite obvious that when it comes to "The greatest pianist" its COMPLETELY objective. Apparently some people don't understand that.

I think by "objective" you mean "subjective," right?

I certainly defend your right to express your opinion. But the whole point of free speech is that whatever you say will be judged, argued, and responded to by others.

I'm not bashing your right to express your opinion, but I'm pointing out that your opinion is an unsupported piece of personal whim and collapses under its own weight of incoherence.

I will defend to my death the right of ignorant people to express their ignorant ideas. I will also defend to my death the right of knowledgeable people to mock those ignorant ideas.

 

[steveie986]

An example of this is when you ask the average person (say Americans), Who's the Greatest Composer and what's the best piano piece? Answer: Beethoven, Fur elise or maybe the Moonlight Sonata. Yea... I hope you guys get what I meant by that...

First of all, your reference to Americans is a cheap shot. I don't think the average European knows more about fine art than the average American. You think the chav-children in the UK know anything about Bach?

Second, your argument is a stunning piece of nonsense. Have you listened to any Beethoven piano music (late piano sonatas, for instance) besides Fur Elise and Moonlight Sonata? If no, let's end the discussion right here.

If you have listened to the late Beethoven sonatas and you are a teenager,  you probably did not understand them. Wait 10 years and try again.

If you insist you understand the late Beethoven sonatas and still believe them to be overrated and inferior to Liszt and Chopin, then by definition you are still a teenager, at least mentally. See the previous statement.

 

[mike_lang]

I agree with Stevie.  I think that if you find Beethoven overrated/inferior, the fault lies in your appreciation, not with the music.  It is one thing to say that Beethoven (or Mozart, Bach, etc.) is not to your taste, but is a different thing entirely to knock its legitimacy and quality as music.  It you don't understand why these composers are the greatest, then you simply have not done your homework.

[steveie986]

I agree with Stevie.  I think that if you find Beethoven overrated/inferior, the fault lies in your appreciation, not with the music.  It is one thing to say that Beethoven (or Mozart, Bach, etc.) is not to your taste, but is a different thing entirely to knock its legitimacy and quality as music.  It you don't understand why these composers are the greatest, then you simply have not done your homework.

Just a minor footnote: I am not Stevie.

[forevere2]

When did I ever say that Beethoven is not considered one of the greatest? Sure, he is a wonderful composer... but the point of this thread is based on the title
"Second Greatest composer for the Piano after Beethoven." Catch the "after" beethoven. My point is that he is not the Best of the Greatest Composers - but never did I say he was not great.

Cheap shot about "Amercans". Well tell you what, I'm an American and that's why I used Americans. I don't know much about Europeans so I used this opinion about Americans as an example.

Don't assume someone to be ignorant, I did listen to the Beethoven sonata's. Also I'd like to point out that I don't really enjoy sonata's, so basically you can argue that's why I have no taste with Beethoven. The only piece I found that was GREAT was Beethoven's 3rd movement of the Moonlight, his rest of the sonata's (AGAIN IMO) lack what this song had. I am a romantic, meaning expression is everything.

I think you guys are basically missing the points I'm trying to make and just jumping to inferences that I dislike Beethoven. I definately am not attacking the legitimacy of Beethoven as an artist. He was great and creative. But in comparison with the other great piano composers, he was not the greatest.

Now lets look at the pieces shall we?

Beethoven's masterpieces consist of Concerto's, Sonata's, Bagatelles, Rondo's,  Symphonies, and Orchestral pieces. Now I'd got to say that's a lot of music for someone who lived almost twice as long as Chopin. However, Concerto's should rarely be played without accompaniment. Furthermore, Symphonies and Orchestral pieces should be taken out of the picture since we are discussing the strictly the piano. As a result, do a little elimination and most (if not all) of what he wrote were Sonata's, bagtelles, and Rondo's.

I remember that in this thread long ago, someone wrote or quoted someone else something similar to this statement: "I would gladly trade any Chopin's ballade for ALL of Beethoven's sonata's."

Chopin and various others on the other hand (Mendelson, Listz), elaborate more fully on the Piano's potential (waltz's, sonata's, ballades, scherzo's, etudes, mazurkas, polaniases, and preludes), and not as a instrument that is used to accompany others. Listz perhaps of all people illustrate the virtuosic potential of the Piano. Even Mozart, although not as successfully as Liszt tried to show the Piano's capability. But Beethoven, great with his symphonies, did not focus on making the Piano a MASTER INSTRUMENT, but as a mere accompaniment to the rest of the orchestra.

So then, who really is the greatest composer for the piano - is it the person who wrote music in various genres? Or perhaps someone who creates genres (i.e. Chopin's Ballades/etudes)?

All in all, Beethoven's main focus was obviously in MUSIC, and not in just the piano alone. His sonata's are great I give it that - some of the greatest pieces ever written - but they aren't (again IMO) "The Greatest of the Great."

[mike_lang]

Just a minor footnote: I am not Stevie.

Oops...just Steve then? 

[bearzinthehood]

forevere2:  Beethoven wrote many masterpieces for solo piano, if all you can talk about is Op. 27/2 then kindly cram it.