I cant belevie ppl cant put this through their heads

[johnny-boy]

You say that only because you know obviously nothing about mathematics. NUMBERS THAT CONTAIN INFINITE AMOUT OF RECURRING DIGITS ARE CALLED HYPERREAL NUMBERS. The symbol is *R. They extend the functionality of Real numbers, just like complex numbers. Don't post if you don't have a clue about what we are talking about.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperreal_numbers
Nope, there is no need, since every I mean EVERY human with intelligence quotient > 42 can see from the material I provide in this post that 0.999... = 1. No need to continue this thread.

my proof:


And, I just happened to found more perfect and mathematical proof than mine
https://home.comcast.net/~integral50/Math/proof2a.pdf
Argue this you tards.

I'm not going to be nice anymore since people arguing that 0,999... can't be defined or that 0,999 != 1 or tends to 1 or approaches 1 or anything. 0,999... EXACTLY EQUALS to 1

Here is the mathematical law that governs this case: The Nested Interval Theorem, which states that the infinite intersection of a set of nested intervals contains a single real number. Are you happy now?

oh, I found another thread at Physics forums
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=5513
Kill this thread. It is finished. You lost.




.

The Googling wonder. Why think for yourself when you have Google power, right Yuck?

Just wondering Yuck; at what point did you chop the last "9" off and start calling .999... "1"? Numbers don't round themselves off - only people round off numbers.

You'll probably go to your grave believing your nonsense because Google is your God - and it's next to impossible to change someone's religious orientation.

Best, John

[johnny-boy]

Hmn... seems like you did reply.

John,,, if you are going to agree that 9.999... - 0.999... = 9, then you also have to agree that 0.999... equals 1, because of the obvious outcome of the sum above.

I'm not entirely sure why you haven't been blocked yet, seeing as you have p*ssed so many people off. There is really nothing left to say: we have given you many different proofs that 0.999... = 1 (which you have conveniantly chosen to ignore - you haven't even explained why you think they might be wrong) and yet you refuse to recognise them.

Yeah, I'm sure you'd like to "block" every human being that disagrees with you Martha, but life doesn't work that way in a free World.

Too bad you can’t hand pick everyone on Earth. Then you wouldn’t have all these conflicts troubling you, dear.

John

[johnny-boy]

Actually, you lose.

Only in your false sense of reality.

John

[johnny-boy]

You can always tell you've got a good argument going on when people are calling each other stupid and slating their music. You'll be correcting each others' spelling and grammar soon...

Good times, guys. Spread the love!


Although...You're right there. That was nasty.

You're a breath of fresh air jas.

Best, John

[pianistimo]

i confess i am idiot - but -- if i think in geometric terms it changes everything in my mind.  if i hadn't googled 'nested interval theorum'  i wouldn't know what it was.  it has to be explained if u want to use it as an argument.  i'm not sure that i would even understand if u explained it - but if i were to simplify the term (as i understand it) it would mean that each increment of 1 encompasses everything in it (esp. geometrically) so it doesn't matter if u have .333 or .999 really.  is this what u mean?  that it is infinitely between one and the next number.  we're talking mainly about numbers in space because they have slight intervals (just like the little bits of space between atoms?) that separate them - but are STILL  CONFINED to a space of 1.  is this what u mean.

i don't want to appear anti-science because i am not.  i am just not a scientist myself.  personally, i don't care if i talk to a scientist who believes in God or one who does not believe in God.  never said that i would be doubtful - if a room full of people who had taken advanced math, chem, physics were agreed upon something that i couldn't understand.  i'd just be silent.  perhaps that's what i should have done on this thread - but it looked to me like a number line and .99 appeared to be different than 1.  what's the point of starting a thread if noone is going to challenge the idea or ask why?  u may as well agree among urselves.

on the religious threads there are many people who misstate bible verses.  yes.  we correct them , like u correct math theorums.  after all - you are well versed in them.  if i have only taken algebra - that's all i understand.  u can't make someone's brain immediately grasp a concept.  u have to take little steps towards more difficult thinking.

i think with spiritual matters, it is the same thing.  for instance, the romans at Christ's death were convinced that he was dead (but still posted guards around the tomb).  as i read somewhere, the stone that was rolled into place was fairly hefty.  as it used to be, they rolled the stone DOWN into place and it would have to take a fairly good amount of effort to roll the stone out of location.  but, as we see in our own lives - an earthquake (or flood, tsunami, whatever) is beyond our scope of control.  as i read in the bible, there was a GREAT earthquake at Christ's ressurection.  the stone was rolled away - and everyone could see that there was no body.  just the clothing left.  to a scientist - this wouldn't make sense.  no body = dead.  but, even the romans had to be a bit confused over this since many converted to christianity after this event.  since pilate said in matt. 27:65 to make the tomb 'as secure as u know how.'  it is fairly evident that it would take a great deal of effort to move this stone out of the way.  Christ would have died by suffocation (lack of air) being not only wrapped for burial but in a sealed tomb, and also beaten and left dead for three days and nights.

just as with mathematical problems - there are things that are not apparent that cannot be proven but just ARE.  even the disciples after seeing the ressurected Christ had some who were doubtful.  matt. 28:17.  mark 16:9 tells about mary magdalene seeing him - and everyone she told disbelieved her at first (of the disciples).  they had to see Him themselves to believe.   guess that is why the 'rule of thumb' theorum is something that i connected with.  there is a verse in the bible that says something like 'blessed are they that haven't seen, and yet believe.'  i'm taking a chance in my personal life and believing that God can do pretty much anything he wants to with His creation, Himself, and His Son. 

maybe that is why some rely on 'signs' to believe in God.  mark 16:17 says 'these signs will accompany those who have believed:  in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues, they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it shall not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.'  now, with science (math included) you have external things that are studied.  with religion - you are studying things that would be considered outside the realm of physics (spirituality).  because there are many frauds - just as with mathematicians that are not studied as compared to ones that are - the ones that are true are sometimes discredited. 

that is why i think science and religion are somewhat similar.  you have people who study subjects like this their entire life and make headway into what they understand is truth.  truth cannot be changed.  relativity - only makes space for many answers until someone comes up with a way to figure out a closer scenario to something.  then, a step is made to become closer to the truth. 

[pianistimo]

godel has something else called 'incompleteness theory.'  it is basically saying that all mathematics is derived from logic (as i understand it) and that he wants to confirm that by other means.  to prove theorums in other ways than argument (if this = Q then that = R).  now, i admit - total idiocy on math - so this is as far as i can take this myself.

www.miskatonic.org/godel.html

[steveie986]

Let's call for a truce. Johnny is right. It's a stalemate. It's disgraceful arguing with the mentally handicapped.

[johnny-boy]

You made a lot of good points pianistimo.

Best, John

[pianistimo]

thanks johnny-boy.  u did too!  i think everyone did.  it did make my mind expand beyond the usual brain functions that i allow.  i am not like u or the others in terms of advanced logic.  my own daughter runs circles around me.  what i like is the use of language.  u can use it in many ways. 

for instance godel says : 'all the limitative theorems of mathematics and the theory of computation suggest that once the ability to represent your own structure (type of thinking on paper) has reached a critical point, that is the kiss of death:  it guarantees that you can never represent yourself totally.' 

for idiots like me - it sounds like a good reply.  but, of course, i shouldn't be on this thread in the first place and i know it.  i just do it for fun.

do u ever wonder what people's brains would look like on paper?  i'm afraid mine would be a circle.  but, i do occasionally waiver in and out of the circle.  i need a lot of repetition and i like to bring things into the circle and smush them.  or look at them outside the circle and admire them.  or bring them into the circle and admire them and dissect them.  most of the time it is an all day and sometimes half the night thing - when a question will not leave my mind and i have to try to understand it better.

[johnny-boy]

Let's call for a truce. Johnny is right. It's a stalemate. It's disgraceful arguing with the mentally handicapped.

I just realized something. If you take the insults off all your posts, there's really not much left is there? I guess I can't expect you to eliminate the essence of your existence. That's so sad though.

[pianistimo]

something i've thought about, too, is that my husband is open to an extremely large amount of possibilities in any situation.  this makes shopping an all day affair.  he is not only comparing prices but all ideas presented.  i tend to make faster decisions.

for instance on this thread - i immediately took sides without knowing for sure that my choice was right.  i stuck with my idea.  it was a 50 -50 proposition that i was right or wrong - even though three doors were presented at one point.  even if i was wrong - i could have an in on speed alone.

u see, if u have a very very bright person and a very very fast person - it's likely the faster acting person will just run over the bright person - and they won't gain any advantage to being smarter.  i learned this as a tool for self protection from my piano teacher.

[yuc4h]

Actually, John, the links are googled, but the proof was written before I googled the links and (https://www.sjoki.uta.fi/~tv3jyha/GeometricSeries.JPG) is actually something I wrote. It is in my web folder and it is written by me. You can actually see my signature in the same folder (https://www.sjoki.uta.fi/~tv3jyha/yuc4hsig.jpg). Is it so hard to accept that some people in this world actually can understand mathematics?

[yuc4h]

Pianistimo, sorry if I was too harsh. It really pissed me off when I saw the new replies in this thread completely ignoring my points that were more mathematically valid than anything in this thread.

anyways

I'll try to explain the nested interval theorem, here it comes:

Basically, it means that if 2 numbers are infinitely close to each other in the continuum, they are all the same number, like 0.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999... = 1.0

And, actually, the number 0.999999999... can be expressed as a geometric series by the definition of decimal system. All the multidigit numbers expressed are in fact potencies of ten multiplied by a multiplier x. See the examples below.

15 = 1*10^1 + 5*10^0
654 = 6 *10^2 + 5*10^1 + 4*10^0
76538.56 = 7*10^4 + 6*10^3 + 5*10^2 + 3*10^1 + 8*10^0 + 5*10^-1 + 6*10^-2

0.999... = 9*10^-1 + 9*10^-2 + 9*10^-3 + ... + 9 * 10^-∞

[bflatminor24]

I just realized something. If you take the insults off all your posts, there's really not much left is there? I guess I can't expect you to eliminate the essence of your existence. That's so sad though.

John, Pianistimo, and anyone else who doesn't know up from down about math.

I'm glad you are well versed in the bible. Congratulations. But this contention isn't about the bible, it's a question of math. Something i happen to be very well versed in (through BC Calc). And I happen to know several proofs that .999bar = 1, and I understand them in their entirety. Being a very logical person, I can't help but ask, please....

If you are convinced this truth does not exist, SHOW ME HOW by pointing out a flaw in logic, or an error in my statements. If you continue to refute logic and facts and undermine decades of research by mathematicians like Leibniz, Gauss, Newton, Descartes, and Fermat based on a whim, you lose credibility in an academic community. You need some evidence to support your opinion, however skewed it may be.

I'm curious to see how you'll avoid the question THIS time...

[pianistimo]

but how does that make it geometric series simply because u go from whole numbers to after decimal numbers? it's a spiral after the decimal?

ok.  potencies of 10 is where the 1 enters, right?  what i'm curious about is the standardization of the number 10.  but, that's another subject.

u see - my piano teacher is very interesting, too.  he takes a theory i think is fact and he just says 'well, look - this is true, too, and much easier.'  can go for repeated notes (i learned 'u have to use a different finger on repeated notes) and with a piece in scarlatti - he told me to try using the same finger and moving it up by small increments to make sure it keeps sounding.  a different solution for the same problem.  agreed, this is not mathematical - but more of a philosophical thing.

so - as i see it - if i am to believe .99 = 1 i have to start thinking about more possibilities with any particular number than what is defined on paper.

[yuc4h]

so - as i see it - if i am to believe .99 = 1 i have to start thinking about more possibilities with any particular number than what is defined on paper.

Correct, it's all about expanding your mind and thinking logically. This is where the religion comes in. People who are religious, are simply too lazy to carefully think about the reality and universe itself and are incapable of doing any profound assumptions or observations about the world we live in. Like I have said in some forum before, if all people would be religious, we would have no wheel, no fire, no electricity, no telecommunication, no medicine, no mathematics, no physics, no nothing

[johnny-boy]

Actually, John, the links are googled, but the proof (https://www.sjoki.uta.fi/~tv3jyha/GeometricSeries.JPG) is actually something I wrote. It is in my web folder and it is written by me with Ms Word. You can actually see my signature in the same folder (https://www.sjoki.uta.fi/~tv3jyha/yuc4hsig.jpg). Is it so hard to accept that some people in this world actually can understand mathematics?

I think the internet has given many people a false sense of intelligence. If you're not one of those people, then good for you.

However, my common sense won't allow me to believe .999... = 1. Because the number .999...  can’t and never will be an integer. An integer is a whole number and .99999999... is undoubtedly not.

It doesn’t matter how many equations you come up with, .999… will never be the same as “1”.

However, I have no problem rounded it off to “1”. It’s a practical idea.

Best, John

[yuc4h]

Yep, but the point is that you can add as many 9's as you want, and there will still always be infinitely more since you can never reach infinity.

[steveie986]

I'm not going to reply to the rude remarks made about my music. If they were just honest critiques it would have been one thing, but the remarks were just plain nasty.

It seems so many members here are more interested in dissing people than for their love of music - which is very discouraging.

John

It wasn't personal. Your music just isn't very interesting and terribly unoriginal. It simply so happens that there's a correlation between mathematical prowess and musical talent. People who are math-challenged rarely have any musical talent either. Sorry. Better luck in your next lifetime!

 

[bflatminor24]

I think the internet has given many people a false sense of intelligence. If you're not one of those people, then good for you.

However, my common sense won't allow me to believe .999... = 1. Because the number .999...  can’t and never will be an integer. An integer is a whole number and .99999999... is undoubtedly not.

It doesn’t matter how many equations you come up with, .999… will never be the same as “1”.

However, I have no problem rounded it off to “1”. It’s a practical idea.

Best, John

Wrong. Read my last post. And I said this before, but a "gut feeling" doesn't cut it, and it certainly doesn't refute mathematics. And bear in mind that the nines are INFINITELY REPEATING, not just a couple, but an INFINITE number of nines.

[steveie986]

Y'all are wasting your time. He's not taking this argument seriously so why should we? It's much more interesting pointing out the more urgent issue - the simple fact of his desperate stupidity in math and pathetic musical ability.

[pianistimo]

ok.  dedekind cuts.  anyone care to share? 

johnny-boy, or anyone else should not be slammed for believing in anything he wants.  after all - there is infinity and that is creating infinite possiblities between every section of fact.  or what we think is fact.  what u are saying is that in ur world of logic - everything can be explained.  in our worlds (whether it is me - as a non mathematician - but enjoyer of concepts - or johnny-boy who may be a scientist for all we know) we don't have to have an explaination for everything - but listening to them we contemplate what might be true. 

[bflatminor24]

Aww, poor John can't take a little heat?

Here's a suggestion: don't undermine other's intelligence and knowledge on a subject you know very little about and then play innocent when they dish it back.

Looks a bit two-faced....

Still haven't answered any of my proofs...have you considered politics? You're really good at avoiding the question.

But I'm glad you found your posse of sympathizers (Pianistmo, Jas). That's always touching.

Rather than defend your beliefs with evidence or logic, you don't demonstrate critical thinking, you rely on undermining other people's intelligence by calling them "google worshippers" to discredit their ideas. Not very effective...

[johnny-boy]

It wasn't personal. Your music just isn't very interesting and terribly unoriginal. It simply so happens that there's a correlation between mathematical prowess and musical talent. People who are math-challenged rarely have any musical talent either. Sorry. Better luck in your next lifetime!

 

I think I'd be more concerned if you liked my music. Since music is subjective, this is only your opinion. I have no insecurities about my music. I hope you never have children, because you hate life and will probably try to destroy their dreams.

You're like a spoiled child, when you get angry you'll say anything whether you truly believe it or not.

I literally have gotten hundreds of compliments on my music - from many great musicians, so your comments via sour grapes from losing the argument on .999... is irrelevant.

You must be a very unhappy person. I feel sorry for you.

This will be the last post I'll make directly to you. You're just a waste of my time.

BTW, music has very little to do with math (elementarily Math only). Music is mostly emotion. But then I guess the only emotion you've ever experienced is one of anger and hatred for life.

[johnny-boy]

Aww, poor John can't take a little heat?

Here's a suggestion: don't undermine other's intelligence and knowledge on a subject you know very little about and then play innocent when they dish it back.

Looks a bit two-faced....

Still haven't answered any of my proofs...have you considered politics? You're really good at avoiding the question.

But I'm glad you found your posse of sympathizers (Pianistmo, Jas). That's always touching.

Rather than defend your beliefs with evidence or logic, you don't demonstrate critical thinking, you rely on undermining other people's intelligence by calling them "google worshippers" to discredit their ideas. Not very effective...

 

[steveie986]

I think I'd be more concerned if you liked my music. Since music is subjective, this is only your opinion. I have no insecurities about my music. I hope you never have children, because you hate life and will probably try to destroy their dreams.

You're like a spoiled child, when you get angry you'll say anything whether you truly believe it or not.

I literally have gotten hundreds of compliments on my music - from many great musicians, so your comments via sour grapes from losing the argument on .999... is irrelevant.

You must be a very unhappy person. I feel sorry for you.

This will be the last post I'll make directly to you. You're just a waste of my time.

BTW, music has very little to do with math (elementarily Math only). Music is mostly emotion. But then I guess the only emotion you've ever experienced is one of anger and hatred for life.

Everything I say is my own opinion, of course. And my opinion is that you have little talent in composing and should invest your time in other things. Mind you, you could still be a performer of considerable talent. I'm also happy you have friends or acquaintances who take pleasure in listening to your music. I really take little interest in what others think of your music.

The argument on .999... is absolutely irrelevant to my judgment of your music. I'm a math major at Stanford University and I don't feel that math is something one should "argue" over. It's far too beautiful a subject to be soiled in this way. My opinions about your music have nothing to do with 0.999.... I was simply pointing out a correlation between mathematical and musical ability, which I have personally witnessed in my extensive experience in working with highly gifted math and music students. In my humble judgment, you, unfortunately, fall into neither category.

[johnny-boy]

Wrong. Read my last post. And I said this before, but a "gut feeling" doesn't cut it, and it certainly doesn't refute mathematics. And bear in mind that the nines are INFINITELY REPEATING, not just a couple, but an INFINITE number of nines.

Exactly, a never ending infinite number of 9's which never reach 1. Case closed!

[yuc4h]

randomly, f**k you

[bflatminor24]

Exactly, a never ending infinite number of 9's which never reach 1. Case closed!

Show me how this is wrong.

x = .999bar
10x = 9.999bar
10x – x = 9x, which is the same as 9.999bar - .999bar, which is 9.
9x = 9
x = 1

10x = 9.999bar, x = .999bar, so 10x – x = 9. 10x – x is also 9x. Thus 9x = 9, thus x = 1.

[johnny-boy]

randomly, f**k you

Can't take the heat Yucky?

[jas]

But I'm glad you found your posse of sympathizers (Pianistmo, Jas). That's always touching.

I couldn't care less whether .999 = 1. And I don't care who "wins" this pointless argument. I was merely pointing out (rightly) that slating someone's music just because they disagree with you (and by "you" I don't mean you specifically) on an unrelated point is nasty. Are you going to dispute that, too?

[johnny-boy]

Show me how this is wrong.

x = .999bar
10x = 9.999bar
10x – x = 9x, which is the same as 9.999bar - .999bar, which is 9.
9x = 9
x = 1

10x = 9.999bar, x = .999bar, so 10x – x = 9. 10x – x is also 9x. Thus 9x = 9, thus x = 1.

I'm sure you could work out an equation proving 2+2=5, but I wouldn't buy that either. I don't need a degree in Math to know that 2+2=4, nor do I need a degree in Math to tell me .999... isn't the same as "1".

John

[bflatminor24]

I'm sure you could work out an equation proving 2+2=5, but I wouldn't buy that either. I don't need a degree in Math to know that 2+2=4, nor do I need a degree in Math to tell me .999... isn't the same as "1".

John

No, you can't "work out an equation proving 2+2=5," because it doesn't. And I don't have a degree in math, nor do I need one to know that .999bar = 1.

Johnny, you may be close-minded, but you aren't a dummy. Read carefully, and you'll see how that proof "proves" .999bar = 1. You too can learn the truth.

[monsieurrenard]

Johnny,

-If you keep adding 9 after the decimal point you get closer and closer to 1
-If you add a static infinite amount of 9s it is no longer possible to add anymore 9s and get any closer to 1, because there is no end to infinity, no end to which you can add 9.
-If you cannot get any closer to 1, that means there is NOTHING between that number and 1 (if there was something there then you could get closer by traveling half that distance)
-if there is NOTHING between two numbers, in other words, if their "difference", represented by a minus sign, is zero, they must be the same (1.0000... - 0.999... = 0)

-Logical conclusion, 1 is the same as 0.999...

I hope this helps you understand this mathematically accepted truth, and that you cut out with the red herring, ad hominem and straw man fallacies.

-Monsieur Le Renard

[steveie986]

I couldn't care less whether .999 = 1. And I don't care who "wins" this pointless argument. I was merely pointing out (rightly) that slating someone's music just because they disagree with you (and by "you" I don't mean you specifically) on an unrelated point is nasty. Are you going to dispute that, too?

The music is separate from the math. He shows uncanny idiocy and incompetence in both, and I suspect there's an internal correlation between the two, but I could be wrong. He could have been just really unlucky in the genetic draw.

He is so delusional as to think a proof for 2+2=5 might exist. In light of such nonsense, reasoning with him is impossible. I'm simply being charitable and offering him some solid advice: life is short and time is limited. It is better to spend it on things you can do well rather than on fruitless endeavours in things you believe you have some nonexistent talent in - i.e. music. Composing, like math, for him is clearly a waste of time. The world would be much better off in terms of maximum marginal utility with Johnny as a street-sweeper or a janitor as opposed to a so-called "composer."

[monsieurrenard]

Johnny's argument has been concisting of "look, I'm just right because I am" with absolutely no logical support, and whenever anyone has provided some he has simply refused to accept it without even attempting to refute them.

Clearely "arguing" with him is completely pointless, for his ego makes it pretty much impossible to talk to him, however I think we should all try our best to make him understand this simple fact.

-Monsieur Le Renard.

[bflatminor24]

The music is separate from the math. He shows uncanny idiocy and incompetence in both, and I suspect there's an internal correlation between the two, but I could be wrong. He could have been just really unlucky in the genetic draw.

He is so delusional as to think a proof for 2+2=5 might exist. In light of such nonsense, reasoning with him is impossible. I'm simply being charitable and offering him some solid advice: life is short and time is limited. It is better to spend it on things you can do well rather than on fruitless endeavours in things you believe you have some nonexistent talent in - i.e. music. Composing, like math, for him is clearly a waste of time. The world would be much better off in terms of maximum marginal utility with Johnny as a street-sweeper or a janitor as opposed to a so-called "composer."

That's not true. Just because he is close-minded and refuses to accept the truth, doesn't mean he is a worthless person. He's probably not as stupid as he seems and he might have some potential with composing. So what if his first composition wasn't that great? It takes time and he'll get better.

I just wish he would learn to accept logic and proof and evidence instead of his whimsical gut feeling.

~Max~

[johnny-boy]

I couldn't care less whether .999 = 1. And I don't care who "wins" this pointless argument. I was merely pointing out (rightly) that slating someone's music just because they disagree with you (and by "you" I don't mean you specifically) on an unrelated point is nasty. Are you going to dispute that, too?

Jaz, you’re absolutely correct; this is a senseless argument. And on that note I'm bowing out.

Now the googling intellectuals can relax. I won’t attack their sacred horse anymore. Actually it's a dead horse anyway. I'm sorry I ruffled your feathers with an opposing view.

With the time I wasted here, I could have composed more beautiful music. Here's a going away present for you to remember me by:
The Girl From Nowhere
https://www.artistcollaboration.com/~johnny-boy/Girl%20From%20Nowhere.mp3

Best, John

[bflatminor24]

The music is separate from the math. He shows uncanny idiocy and incompetence in both, and I suspect there's an internal correlation between the two, but I could be wrong. He could have been just really unlucky in the genetic draw.

He is so delusional as to think a proof for 2+2=5 might exist. In light of such nonsense, reasoning with him is impossible. I'm simply being charitable and offering him some solid advice: life is short and time is limited. It is better to spend it on things you can do well rather than on fruitless endeavours in things you believe you have some nonexistent talent in - i.e. music. Composing, like math, for him is clearly a waste of time. The world would be much better off in terms of maximum marginal utility with Johnny as a street-sweeper or a janitor as opposed to a so-called "composer."

That's not true. Just because he is close-minded and refuses to accept the truth, doesn't mean he is a worthless person. He's probably not as stupid as he seems and he might have some potential with composing. So what if his first composition wasn't that great? It takes time and he'll get better.

I just wish he would learn to accept logic and proof and evidence instead of his whimsical gut feeling.

~Max~

[monsieurrenard]

Some people just can't handle the fact that the truth does not always agree with their o-so-holy human instinct.

Best of luck johnny, walking around blindfolded by your ego isn't going to be easy.

-Monsieur Le Renard

[steveie986]

Jaz, you’re absolutely correct; this is a senseless argument. And on that note I'm bowing out.

Now the googling intellectuals can relax. I won’t attack their sacred horse anymore. Actually it's a dead horse anyway. I'm sorry I ruffled your feathers with an opposing view.

With the time I wasted here, I could have composed more beautiful music. Here's a going away present for you to remember me by:
The Girl From Nowhere
https://www.artistcollaboration.com/~johnny-boy/Girl%20From%20Nowhere.mp3

Best, John

Wow, that was even worse than the last one. Dear friend, why do you even bother? Don't you know it's selfish to be composing such insipid, unoriginal, textbook (hehe) music rather than working in the real world to serve others? You have two hands and two legs, ya'd better put it to good use, kid, cos your brain isn't exactly "serviceable."

[bflatminor24]

Some people just can't handle the fact that the truth does not always agree with their o-so-holy human instinct.

Best of luck johnny, walking around blindfolded by your ego isn't going to be easy.

-Monsieur Le Renard

Well put. 

[steveie986]

Jaz, you’re absolutely correct; this is a senseless argument. And on that note I'm bowing out.

Now the googling intellectuals can relax. I won’t attack their sacred horse anymore. Actually it's a dead horse anyway. I'm sorry I ruffled your feathers with an opposing view.

With the time I wasted here, I could have composed more beautiful music. Here's a going away present for you to remember me by:
The Girl From Nowhere
https://www.artistcollaboration.com/~johnny-boy/Girl%20From%20Nowhere.mp3

Best, John

OK, I just listened to it again. I believe this really isn't "music" per se, but "muzak," otherwise known as "elevator music." I pity the music "professionals" who praised your work. I have even less respect for random music gurus now.

But, I'm always an optimist: great careers in janitorial studies and fast food management are HOT right now.

[monsieurrenard]

I wouldn't be so harsh. Those were fairly solid improvisations (I'm assuming they are, because I can't really imagine a written piece sounding like that), and he can only get better.

I know we're all a little wound up because we've been screaming at a brick wall for the past 6 pages, but let's not unwound on Johnny's music. If you don't like it, you should still respect it.

-Monsieur le Renard

[steveie986]

Actually, I have the highest respect for Johnny. He brings me unspeakable delight and pleasure.

[yuc4h]

Actually, I have the highest respect for Johnny. He brings me unspeakable delight and pleasure.

QFT

[pianistimo]

did i see a shift of paradigm in the last two messages?

was listening to a preacher last night and he said the reason most adults are not interested in the saving grace of Christ is that they gave up the humbleness they had as children and replaced it totally with logic.  so, it does not appear logical to them to accept grace.  they either feel that they don't deserve it and never will, or that they are too good for it.  he said that if they were nine years old, they might consider the free gift to be just that.  but, logic sometimes distorts things.

not everything, mind you.  seems that many of the great inventions of the world were discovered by one man and expanded upon by others.  everyone likes to take the credit - but there's only a few that actually discover whatever items are being discovered.  did you know that benjamin franklin WAs religious.  https://worldpolicy.org/globalrights/religion/franklin-religion.html  and www.time.com/time/2003/franklin/bffranklin7.html
there was no conflict between what he discovered and attributing the creation of it to God.

not every scientist is an athiest.  i think what is going on is mass indoctrination of another religion in most colleges.  it is the religion of the mind.  that we can imagine, or come up with a solution for everything.  what if our minds are finite.  what if there IS an end to what we know - and it's just the beginning of what God knows and goes on from there?

i conceeded things on my part - as not having advanced degree in math.  but even people with advanced degrees in math and music , to be successful teachers, have to give lessons with courtesy and tact.  if you told your students 'you're all stupd.  you will never have any talent...'  what motivation would that be.  if you take a poll in your classes and determine at the beginning that all the religious students are incapable of advanced reasoning - that would be a form of racism.  as i see it - whether a person is religious or not has no bearing on their iq.  sure, there are people who can be sold 'a bill of goods'  but these bill of goods come in all areas of knowledge and not just religion.

truth seems to be universal.  if you find something true it is also likely to be considered good.  goodness and truth have nothing to hide.  there is an element of mystery to math AND music and it seems that every person in this universe has a sort of 'dna' to their likes and dislikes and patterns of functioning that can not be described as anything but unique.  to judge someone else and say they are not measuring up to our standards is failed judgement.  especially if our judge might judge us as we judge others.

[prometheus]

Only in your false sense of reality.

John

Everybody with some knowledge on the subject knows the answer to the question. You have the wrong answer and you have not been able to convince anyone. Actually, you aren't even trying. You are attacking people personally. So yes, you lose.

[pianistimo]

sorry to go on - was even thinking about 'types of thinking.'  i am actually in agreement that many Christians use faith very broadly.  the surprising thing is that it works!  but, not in all cases.  i think God wants us to use our brains - otherwise He wouldn't have given them to us.  sometimes it's a matter of frustration.  like, when i am at my 'final solution' on fixing something and can't get past what i personally know -i pray.  for my husband, he'd go more steps beyond where i was and perhaps fix the problem.  once i prayed over my sink garbage disposal (after getting out everything that i could - and it was still stuck).  do you know,  i turned it on and it suddenly worked. 

this may sound hilarious to someone who doesn't pray all the time - but i've had this experience with other things.

now, to my son and my husband - they'd stay at the problem longer.  so who really wins in this situation?  it's certainly something to think about.

now, if women were given the same importance in being taught 'logic' from a young age - they might not give up so easily.  mechanical things - computer things - automotive things - i don't really try because as i was growing up we just learned 'dad will fix it.'  that was the solution.  it's all in how you are taught or what your motivation is to learn something.  now that i think about it, my step-dad tried to teach me logic , but he got frustrated and gave up.

was thinking yesterday about the idea of God and the Son being 'one.'  What if...what if there is no such thing as one whole anything in our universe and that we are all tied to a huge 'one.'  so numbers are merely representations of what we think are whole numbers or whole things - but they are really parts of something bigger.  it's our way of describing them finitely.

[deja vu]

pianistimo

you will be pleased to know that I bought myself a bible today

(I do not believe in god, I just feel as though I ought to read the bible to understand why christians are christians - mostly, I just like picking out the flaws)

but I am reading it non-the-less

<applause>