Religious Debate Room the Third

[eddie92099]

We (or at least I ) do not believe that there is any inherent meaning in life, and therefore the existence of a god is simply proposterous.

I second that,
Ed

[liszmaninopin]

I've been accused several times of turning by back on god, deliberately.  I always ask those people why I would turn by back on something if I knew I was going to suffer for eternity for it.  I have to go along with the others in that I agree there is no real "purpose" for life, and that I'm not going to any heaven or hell.

[TwinkleFingers]

I'm not going to heaven,
Ed

we (our souls)all are going somewhere when we are judged. either your name will be in the book of life or it wont. If your name isnt in the book of life then you will be thrown into eternal darkness(lake of fire)

We (or at least I ) do not believe that there is any inherent meaning in life, and therefore the existence of a god is simply proposterous.

what a sad humanistic(like that word ed?) view.  no purpose to life.  better stock up on a life supply of zoloft.

[liszmaninopin]

You have no evidence that we go anywhere when we die, or that we even have souls.  I have no reason to believe so, the burden of proof rests on you.

Actually, I have already stated my purpose for life, enjoying life and helping others to do the same.  That is my own purpose, and not one some "god" assigns to my life.  That provides a much more personal hope and sense of aspiration to my life than any one size fits all god could.

[eddie92099]

we (our souls)all are going somewhere when we are judged. either your name will be in the book of life or it wont..

I don't believe in the concept of the soul.

eternal darkness(lake of fire)

What a nice little contradiction of terms,
Ed

[Beethoven87]

Ok, I know this was posted a while back (I arive late to all the good threads), but I really just have to say something here.  

OK Lis........  I will return to the theist thread, but first I'd like to respond to all the folks out there who, for some reason, love to hate the US *big corporations* but love to benefit from all the good things they produce.  

For instance.  We like to forget that this country FEEDS the people of most of these countries that actively hate us.  They have overpopulated themselves and used what resources they have to the point where they would starve to death if the US didn't throw food and supplies at them.

Then they permit or worse yet, FUND extremist groups, who dont' wake up in the morning thinking *I have to get x done at the office today* or *I want to get that new piece mapped out on the piano today*.  They think *I need to work on that plan to kill Americans today*.  That's all they think about.  Every day.  And on September 11 they ran airplanes into buildings and killed 3000 people.  That looks like like war to me.  And I applaud George Bush for having the balls (pardon th expression) to stand up and deal with it, rather than flounder around like our last president did, and allow the situation to get worse.  If he hadn't gone after those guys, we'd be living like the jews in Israel in a few years.  I wouldn't be able to go to Starbucks for coffee without wondering if today was the day a bomb would go off there.

You say that that America feeds all these poor backwards third world countries, but while you walk in for your cheap and easy morning Starbucks, I guess what you don't realize is that these countries are feeding you.  All the coffee and all the labor for harvesting it for your precious Starbucks (which I'm sure, like everybody else, is a commodity you simply can't live without) was provided by the poor backwards peopled of the third world contries, where, because none of them can scrounge up enough money to buy a used lump of elephant dung, they are forced to work for the meager offerings of American countries who beat them until they achieve the labor standards they require.  This is also true for every tomato (among other things) you eat at taco bell, and just about everything you grab at McD's.

I'm happy you've bought that manufactured in America garbage about Bush being the only man with "ballz" enough to go after terrorists (imagine I said "the only man with ballz enough" in the most sarcastic and testosterone spewing redneck voice I could muster up).  Lemme guess...  Are you a member of the NRA?  Do you think the ol' Clint Eastwood was the manliest man of em all cause he had such enormous nuts he could shoot outlaws?  Actually, I forgot the biggest ballz of them all...  George Washington.  I mean, he was the only one whose indescribably massive testes would allow him to send those native americans where they really belonged...  ALCATRAZ!!!!!

Man, I don't usually go off like that either...  Sorry.  That was almost as sarcastic as ed.

[eddie92099]

That was almost as sarcastic as ed.

I don't remember being sarcastic,
Ed

[chopiabin]

what a sad humanistic(like that word ed?) view.  no purpose to life.  better stock up on a life supply of zoloft.[/quote]

Do you think that just because something is depressing then it is not true? I have had teachers who say things like this. It doesn't make any sense. Just because something isn't easy or is depressing, if it is true, then it is true.

Chop (sorry if that was incoherent, New Year's Party last night)

[TwinkleFingers]

I have had teachers who say things like this

wow! and Im not even a teacher.

It doesn't make any sense. Just because something isn't easy or is depressing, if it is true, then it is true.

You cant prove this...and I cant seem to prove anything to you guys.  So how you say its true Im at a total loss of words.

What a nice little contradiction of terms,
Ed

well I think eternal darkness means evil. Not sure though otherwise yes I could see how that is contradicting.

You have no evidence that we go anywhere when we die,

as do you that we dont go anywhere. Even if I could somehow show you that there is life after death,  wouldnt that make the faith aspect obsolete?

[eddie92099]

as do you that we dont go anywhere

Try digging up a grave. The corpse will not have gone anywhere,
Ed

[chopinetta]

WOW Eddie! You're still alive! I've been away... hey if you were, let's say, "dead" you could have proved to us all that souls don't go anywhere.

i like the soul concept of reincarnation. we have a very blurry view of what lies after life (after death). so where do our souls really go? do animals have souls? if heaven was really there, do animals go to heaven too? do bad animals go to hell? how come only humans go to those places. that's so unair if I was a dog.

I WONDER!

and one more thing! is hell EXOTHERMIC of ENDOTHERMIC??

[chopinetta]

here is the answer!

https://www.paganlibrary.com/humor/hell_temperature.php

and to prove that heaven is hotter than hell according to bible scriptures and that those two don't really exist!

https://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/hell.htm

[cziffra]

if it is true, then it is true.  

You cant prove this

actually, i think anyone, even you twinkle fingers, wouldn't have a hard time proving true something which is true.  if it is true, it can't be false, can it?

[chopinetta]

there's always no such thing as world peace, isn't that depressing? depressing yet it is true... one good proof that if anything's depressing, it doesn't mean it always isn't true!!!!!

[TwinkleFingers]

Try digging up a grave. The corpse will not have gone anywhere,
Ed

the soul is not the physical body. but a spirit. we will be reunited with our perfect bodies in heaven, assuming if we make it there.

if it is true, it can't be false, can it?  

assuming it was true no it wouldnt be hard. key word, "assuming".

[eddie92099]

the soul is not the physical body. but a spirit. we will be reunited with our perfect bodies in heaven, assuming if we make it there.
assuming it was true no it wouldnt be hard.  but it isnt true though is it.

What a lovely little story. It really does rank alongside Father Christmas,
Ed

[TwinkleFingers]

What a lovely little story. It really does rank alongside Father Christmas,
Ed

not sure what you are talking about there.

[eddie92099]

assuming it was true no it wouldnt be hard. key word, "assuming".

True things aren't true?
Ed

[TwinkleFingers]

he hasnt proven anything true.

[eddie92099]

not sure what you are talking about there.

Someone help him out...
Ed

[eddie92099]

he hasnt proven anything true.

Exactly. He just said true things are true, and you said "assuming they are true",
Ed

[thracozaag]

Exactly. He just said true things are true, and you said "assuming they are true",
Ed

 Maybe he's taking a page out the Rumsfeld book concering the "known-knowns, the unknown-knowns, and the unknown-unknowns"

[eddie92099]

I did enjoy watching him do that little speech,
Ed

[chopinetta]

whatever Twinklefingers, we've all learned something very important here. and that is: NEVER ARGUE WITH EDDIE!

[liszmaninopin]

What's this about Rumsfeld's "unknown-unknowns" and other such absurdities?  It sounds like a comical listen.

[cziffra]

Just because something isn't easy or is depressing, if it is true, then it is true.  

twinkle fingers, listen: the point of this is simply whether or not something is depressing, IF it is true, it will be true AND depressing.  he does not make any claim for it ACTUALLY being true, he's making the point that being depressing and true are unrelated states.  but you didn't see it that way:

You cant prove this...and I cant seem to prove anything to you guys.  So how you say its true Im at a total loss of words.

HE DID NOT SAY IT WAS TRUE, DID HE?  he said IF it is true, then it is true, REGARDLESS of how depressing and demoralising it is.  HE"S NOT SAYING IT"S TRUE- take for example, the size of space.  it's a fact that it's rather large, and we rather small in comparison.  this is depressing, yet it is nevertheless true.  do you notice that the two states are unrelated?  the fact that it's depressing doesn't change the size of space.  THAT is the point.  

Twinkle fingers, before you react to this post, read it again and understand it.  do not think you know what it is talking about, just read it.

[liszmaninopin]

To tell you the truth, I would find life after death extraordinarily depressing in the sense most people think of it.  Here is my vision of a paradise:  I should have quick access to a diversity of scenery, climate, culture, and other things that make life interesting, not some ridiculous golden cube in the sky where we just sit around and praise god all day. (actually, I take that back, there are no days or nights in heaven, just eternal light).  Heaven sounds like eternal boredom to me.  At least if we die and that's it, we have no sensation of boredom, or happiness, or peace, or any other thing that would drive us crazy after an eternity of it.  To tell you the truth, reincarnation might not be so bad, a good incentive for leaving the world better than we found it.  I wouldn't be suprised if this "end-times" mentality, and the associated thoughts that the earth doesn't really matter, contribute alot to the destruction of our world today.  Millions of people are convinced the end of the world is just around the corner.

[chopinetta]

i don't think heaven's really there. so, before we were born here on earth, me should have been in heaven if heaven was real. but i don't think i remembered beeing in heaven...

[cziffra]

why have earth at all if heaven is so wonderful?

[chopinetta]

well, that's something to think about. and why would God put us on Earth to sin anyway? so he can put us in hell? if there is hell wouldn't God be as bad as Lucifer (I like that name) himself? how could you throw your "beloved ones" in fire?

[TwinkleFingers]

why have earth at all if heaven is so wonderful?

so we can fully appreciate God and all of His glory.  I guess so he can show us the contrast between a sinful earth and perfection.  This is all assuming we make it to heaven, which the bible says is the narrow path that many will not follow.

and why would God put us on Earth to sin anyway? so he can put us in hell?

no He put us on earth that we may glorify Him and serve Him in His kingdom. Remember that adam and eve lived in a perfect world before sin came into the picture.  It was the fall of man that led to a sinful world.  He sends people to hell who refuse to believe in Him or who know Him but rather worship satan. Keep in mind if you are not for God then you are against Him.  Which means you are for Satan whether you think so or not.  God wants all to believe that He gave His only son who lived the perfect life on earth to pay the ultimate penalty for our sins.  This is the only way to salvation.  If you have nothing to do with this then, according to the bible, you will mostly likely spend eternity in hell.

i don't think heaven's really there. so, before we were born here on earth, me should have been in heaven if heaven was real. but i don't think i remembered beeing in heaven...  

memory serves you well because you never were there.

Millions of people are convinced the end of the world is just around the corner.

well we are in the days of sadom and gamorra(the bible)(not sure if I spelled that right...sry eddy)this was just before God wiped out the earth with the great flood. The land was filled with sin.  Sin without repentence or guilt.  We are definitly in those times as we speak now.  The time when the second coming of God will come. P.S. we have no concept on what perfection, in its true sense, really is.  But I can bet there will be no boredom or depression in a perfect place like that.

HE DID NOT SAY IT WAS TRUE, DID HE?  he said IF it is true, then it is true, REGARDLESS of how depressing and demoralising it is.  HE"S NOT SAYING IT"S TRUE- take for example, the size of space.  it's a fact that it's rather large, and we rather small in comparison.  this is depressing, yet it is nevertheless true.  do you notice that the two states are unrelated?  the fact that it's depressing doesn't change the size of space.  THAT is the point.

im not depressed about how small we are. I still fail to see a point in all that you say.  You just saying if something is true then it is true.  OF COURSE!!! and your saying emotion is totally seperate from that truth.  OF COURSE!!! Is this your only point??

[eddie92099]

Remember that adam and eve lived in a perfect world before sin came into the picture.

I thought heaven was the perfect world.

Keep in mind if you are not for God then you are against Him.  Which means you are for Satan whether you think so or not.  

Don't you just LOVE Satan?! He's such a legend .

God wants all to believe that He gave His only son who lived the perfect life on earth to pay the ultimate penalty for our sins.  This is the only way to salvation.  If you have nothing to do with this then, according to the bible, you will mostly likely spend eternity in hell.

Which parish?

 You just saying if something is true then it is true.  OF COURSE!!! and your saying emotion is totally seperate from that truth.  OF COURSE!!! Is this your only point??

It was a side note which you seemed to take issue with,
Ed

[bernhard]

Do you (all of you) want to know if you are going to hell? Take the test!

https://www.madblast.com/funflash/swf/HellTest.swf

[TwinkleFingers]

I thought heaven was the perfect world.

it is

Don't you just LOVE Satan?! He's such a legend

i think your taking that scripture love thy enemies to seriously

Which parish?

Im presbyterian

It was a side note which you seemed to take issue with,

the only thing I take issue with is you making a mockery of what I say.

[eddie92099]

I don't think you got the little "which parish?" joke. Oh well. So you have said heaven is a perfect world, and the garden of eden was a perfect world. Make your mind up,
Ed

[chopinetta]

God wants all to believe that He gave His only son who lived the perfect life on earth to pay the ultimate penalty for our sins.

should he be angry at all? I mean, surely Jesus would go to heaven after he died. Isn't he happy he is reunited with his only son? and if there really is hell, then God is Satan himself. wait---don't call Satan as Satan.. don't you just love the name LUCIFER?

and besides, Jesus is still here, so there's no way of proving that God really gave him up. Jesus never completely vanished. In fact, he's perfectly healthy.

[chopiabin]

Cziffra, thanks for at least trying to help twink understand.

Twink, do you believe people of other religions will go to hell?

Chop

[TwinkleFingers]

Twink, do you believe people of other religions will go to hell?

Chop

i think this was already asked but I'll say it again.  It is not my place to judge other people.  All that I know is that if you dont believe in Jesus as your savior that he will send you to hell.

should he be angry at all? I mean, surely Jesus would go to heaven after he died. Isn't he happy he is reunited with his only son? and if there really is hell, then God is Satan himself. wait---don't call Satan as Satan.. don't you just love the name LUCIFER?

and besides, Jesus is still here, so there's no way of proving that God really gave him up. Jesus never completely vanished. In fact, he's perfectly healthy.

Jesus is God really. There is God the son, God the father, and God the Holy Spirit.  But they are all one being. I really dont get what you are saying in the rest of your paragraph.

I don't think you got the little "which parish?" joke. Oh well. So you have said heaven is a perfect world, and the garden of eden was a perfect world. Make your mind up,
Ed

the garden was perfect but it seems that God gave them free will and they disobeyed by eating the forbidden fruit.  They bible says they were cast out.  

[chopiabin]

But what if someone in another religion says that you are going to hell for not believeing in theirs? If they believe in their religion just as strongly as you do i  yours, then who can really say who is going to hell? It would eventually boil down to two people saying that they were right, with neither side having any proof in  their god or their believed in afterlife.

Chop

[chopinetta]

Twinkelfingers, you don't need to tell me all about who's this God and who that is. I'm a complete Roman Catholic--I go to mass, pray the rosary, blah blah... of course I don't take it seriously, I'm only forced! We have to pray more than 10 times a day in our school. more than 10 times! And it's true.

What i was saying was, "God loves us so much that he gave up his only begotten son." Okay, nice fiction.

Gave up--doesn't that mean that Jesus died? and that giving up, meaning, he'll perish and vanish forever? wouldn't it be meaningless if God "gave up" his only son Jesus, and Jesus would just rejoin him afterwards, with the same power and might as before. it's like only a play they were performing. Jesus "dies" in the play to show us that God the Father really loves us. but in the back stage he's completely healthy.

[eddie92099]

All that I know is that if you dont believe in Jesus as your savior that he will send you to hell.

Nice bloke,
Ed

[TwinkleFingers]

then who can really say who is going to hell?

only God can

[eddie92099]

TwinkleFingers, would you mind answering Chopinetta's question?
Ed

[TwinkleFingers]

Gave up--doesn't that mean that Jesus died? and that giving up, meaning, he'll perish and vanish forever? wouldn't it be meaningless if God "gave up" his only son Jesus, and Jesus would just rejoin him afterwards, with the same power and might as before. it's like only a play they were performing. Jesus "dies" in the play to show us that God the Father really loves us. but in the back stage he's completely healthy.

but Jesus rose again from the dead.  you dont think he's still dead do you?  I really dont know how to answer that question.  But it does show God's love for His people.  P.S. Im not catholic nor do I believe in praying to rosery beads.

with neither side having any proof in  their god or their believed in afterlife.

the proof is in the God inspired scriptures.

[liszmaninopin]

God inspired?!  Those scriptures are no more god inspired than the Odyssey or the tale of Isis, Osiris, and Seth.  In fact, the latter make better reading.

[chopinetta]

yeah, I know Jesus is back. it's what makes it ridiculous. it doesn't really show God's love for us.

For example, I love "Maksim" (eeewww)... I will give up my piano skills for him. It will have to vanish forever because I love him so much. I love playing the piano sooo much but since I love Maksim, I will have to give it up.

What God is doing is that he gives up his son. Jesus is like clay. God deforms the clay, saying that it's destroyed because he gave it up for us. But if you deform clay you could reform it again back to normal. He's like fooling us!

[TwinkleFingers]

Yeah Right, God is trying to fool us by telling us what happened in His book.  He is telling us the way to salvation.  Even a fool cant be fooled.  Its fool-proof

What God is doing is that he gives up his son. Jesus is like clay. God deforms the clay, saying that it's destroyed because he gave it up for us. But if you deform clay you could reform it again back to normal.

I cant understand the trinity, so Im not even going to attempt to answer this statement.  

[eddie92099]

I cant understand the trinity, so Im not even going to attempt to answer this statement.  

How convenient,
Ed

[chopinetta]

I cant understand the trinity, so Im not even going to attempt to answer this statement.  

See? that's why. you're not open-minded. so why don't you think about what i said. and think twice. don't you think religion was only created by us humans (all those ideas included, beliefs and ceremonies) to, in one way or another, unite us? control us? let us feel fear of doing unlawful things because "there is a higher power that will judge us and throw us into hell?"

it's all like a story a mother tells to a naughty boy.

[liszmaninopin]

As with the creation/evolution debate thread, this one seems to go to the evolutionists.