Religious Debate Room the Third

[chopiabin]

Yep, I guess we can start a new one .

Chop

[chopiabin]

I think Twinkles is slowly losing his mind as we chip away at the validity of his argument. It seems to me that a few minutes ago he tried to justify genocide by saying that "god rejects those who reject him" or some such nonsense. Twinkles, why don't you tell that to the Jews, the Rwandans, the Armenians etc.?

I also think it is funny that you never reply to my thoughts on the origin of religion, except when you assume that I mean christianity is the only religion and that I mean that it sprang up from nowhere. If you actually researched anything, you would know that the world is older than six thousand years. There are other religions that have been around longer than christianity, and christianity itself is a combination of Judaism and Zoroastrianism. I think that shows that people at least made up hell. However, did you know that the ancient Hebrew word, Yahweh, meant "we"? Doesn't this seem to suggest that perhaps your god is just the pooling together of the properties of many gods?

Regardless of the origin issues, I think it is funny that you worship a god that is so self righteous that he created a world full of human pain and suffering simply so that he could be worshipped.

Do you believe that dinosaurs existed? If you do (and you would have to be a fool not to), then what the hell was god doing for those 65 million years? If you don't believe that the dinosaurs existed, then you need to have your head checked. I'm sure that you believe that science is the work of the devil (funny, you use it every day), but it has infinitely more evidence in favor of it than does the bible. And when I say "proof of the bible," I mean proof that there is a god and proof that Jesus was divine etc.

Chop

[schnabels_grandson]

I think Twinkles is slowly losing his mind as we chip away at the validity of his argument. It seems to me that a few minutes ago he tried to justify genocide by saying that "god rejects those who reject him" or some such nonsense. Twinkles, why don't you tell that to the Jews, the Rwandans, the Armenians etc.?

 
I would like to intervene here and say that God has the right to destroy whomever he wishes simply because he has created everyone and everything.  We are all his belongings.  He gives everyone the chance to adhere to his standards for their own good and if they choose not to, he is not obligated to allow them to live.  I think it is so difficult for you all to grasp this concept because of pride and gross humanism.  When it comes to what God has said and what he has commanded humans to do, there can be no argument, as he is the wisest being in the universe.  

I also think it is funny that you never reply to my thoughts on the origin of religion, except when you assume that I mean christianity is the only religion and that I mean that it sprang up from nowhere. If you actually researched anything, you would know that the world is older than six thousand years. There are other religions that have been around longer than christianity, and christianity itself is a combination of Judaism and Zoroastrianism. I think that shows that people at least made up hell. However, did you know that the ancient Hebrew word, Yahweh, meant "we"? Doesn't this seem to suggest that perhaps your god is just the pooling together of the properties of many gods?

The reason I (and possibly others) have not responded to your thoughts on the "origins of religion" is that I firmly believe what the bible says and therefore have no reason to doubt what it says as to the origin of true religion.  Hell definitely is a creation of man.  I don't know who told you that Yahweh meant "we" but they are wrong.  The name Yahweh means  "He causes to become".  So no, it doesn't suggest any personality pooling.

[eddie92099]

to believe He doesnt exist is to believe we dont exist.

So atheists don't believe in their own existence?

For without Him is nothing. You dont have a choice. You are either for Him or against Him(which is ultimately for satan)

I can choose not to believe in either him or satan. I cannot be for or against something that does not exist.

I would like to intervene here and say that God has the right to destroy whomever he wishes simply because he has created everyone and everything.  We are all his belongings.

Fine. You go and murder your children and see how many people find you to be just in your decision (I say your children hypothetically - I personally don't think you should be allowed to breed),
Ed

[schnabels_grandson]

Fine. You go and murder your children and see how many people find you to be just in your decision (I say your children hypothetically - I personally don't think you should be allowed to breed),
Ed

Wow! I guess I wasn't clear.  I assume you are saying that because I would in a round-about way create children, by my logic I could kill them with impunity.  Well, I wasn't in any way implying that any human has the right to terminate anothers life.  I said that God created us and therefore he and he only has the right to grant life or take life.    

I can choose not to believe in either him or satan. I cannot be for or against something that does not exist.

I find it very amusing that you all are so quick to confidently deny the existence of God, yet you pick on people who do the same with the evolution theory.  I see a double standard.  About the breeding thing-  You've really done it this time, now I'm going to have twice as many kids.

[liszmaninopin]

The first part of this reply is a response to Twinkle Fingers' post in the second religious debate room.

No, I very distinctly remember god mass murduring all the millions of people on earth before the flood.  He also ordered the jews (a favored race) to eradicate the Canaanites.   In fact, he had his favored race eliminate any other culture he didn't like.  Very Hitler-like.  When somebody displeased him in the Bible, even over a minor offense, he had them killed.  The god of the Bible is a very jealous, spiteful god.

I don't see evidence of any god.  No, I don't have to admit that the world "needed" an intelligent creator.  All the evidence is to the contrary.

Of course my comment is an unknown, you're taking it out of context, badly.   What I meant was as follows; in the Christian religion, it is said that one either goes to heaven or hell when one dies.  My statements were two possibilities for someone who never heard of God, they either went to heaven or hell, and then I stated what the problem with either logic is.

Okay, I will name some.
Science error:  Besides the cud-chewing rabbits, four legged locusts, bats as birds, and other abominations of simple observation in Leviticus; the Flood story is utterly impossible.  Especially I ask how marine ecosystems survived the flood.  There are many problems with the flood story, and I will debate them in more detail if you want me to.
Historical error:  There are many civilizations that show continuous written record right through the period of the flood, and no evidence that their civilization was ever destroyed for a year.  For example, how did the Egyptian monuments built before the flood not be covered with sediment?  They are built on almost exactly the same level as those built after the supposed flood.
The bottom line is that if a book can't even get simple observation right, I have no reason to believe its spiritual validity.

He murdured many people; that is just one law he broke.

Once again, your statement proves that God is like a spoiled child.  If you don't do exactly what he wants, he gets mad and either commits a genocide or sends you to hell for eternity.

Honestly, you need to stop making statements like that.  I do not believe in god or satan, and thusly I am not serving either.  You might think I am, but stating your opinions and beliefs as fact is not a correct way of debating.

Jesus may have lived a perfect life (although that is debatable), but he certainly didn't mind contradicting himself.  Compare Matthew 5:22 with 23:17.

The rest of this post is to respond to what is already in this room.

It is rather amazing that the wisest being in the universe manages not only to contradict himself but shows a profound ignorance of the world he supposedly "create," as can be shown by simple observation and scientific inquiry into the world around us.

There is a huge difference.  Denying the existance of god is not going against anything except the religions of the world, which can almost always be demonstrated to be false.  Going against evolution is going against mountains of scientific evidence, especially considering that the various creation alternatives have basically no support.  It is not a double standard, comparing creation "science" and evolutionary science is ridiculous, one is pseudoscience and the other legitimate science.

[chopiabin]

So Hitler was cool with god? I mean, he was only doing god's work. god hates Jews, Gypsies, and homosexuals, and Hitler was just trying to get them out of god's way.

[chopiabin]

By the way, I didn't say the word "yahweh" meant "we", I said the word that "yahweh" came from meant "we".

Chop

[liszmaninopin]

Indeed, the similarities between the god of the Bible and Hitler are striking.

[dinosaurtales]

The god TwinkleFingers is describing reminds me of a team leader I recently had at work.  She was big into the *team* and everybody wroking well as part of a *team*.  By her definition of a *team Player* though, if you disagreed with her, or *asked too many questions* you were NOT a team player.  Somehow different from the other teams I have worked on.  This reminds me of TwinkleFinger's god.  Not much room for creative or individual thought.  Just shut up and do as I say.

Yuck.  Glad that's not my world!

[Noah]

The god TwinkleFingers is describing reminds me of a team leader I recently had at work.  She was big into the *team* and everybody wroking well as part of a *team*.  By her definition of a *team Player* though, if you disagreed with her, or *asked too many questions* you were NOT a team player.  Somehow different from the other teams I have worked on.  This reminds me of TwinkleFinger's god.  Not much room for creative or individual thought.  Just shut up and do as I say.

Interestingly this view of god is also the current US administration's view of foreign politics: "Be with us or against us"...

[liszmaninopin]

Indeed.  I'm just curious, but to those who live in non-US countries, what would you say the most popular opinions of the US are in your area?

[eddie92099]

Indeed.  I'm just curious, but to those who live in non-US countries, what would you say the most popular opinions of the US are in your area?

The most unsupportive ever,
Ed

[Noah]

The most unsupportive ever,
Ed

Same here.

[liszmaninopin]

One thing about the US's foreign policy that I don't like it how it speaks of arrogance.  First of all, they take a "with us or against us" policy, which is kind of ridiculous.  They also practically manage many other countries in the world for the benefit of their own large corporations.  I think that the recent wars are the first two wars America has launched against a nation that had not done anything.  Also, it seems like some American people feel like the rest of the world should not be criticizing us.  I don't know about most people, but when nearly every country in the world has some criticisms of the US, I would suspect that shows that there is in fact something wrong with American foreign policy.

[liszmaninopin]

The theists seem to have disappeared; I'm still waiting for a good response to my aquatic life and the flood statement.

[dinosaurtales]

OK Lis........  I will return to the theist thread, but first I'd like to respond to all the folks out there who, for some reason, love to hate the US *big corporations* but love to benefit from all the good things they produce.  

For instance.  We like to forget that this country FEEDS the people of most of these countries that actively hate us.  They have overpopulated themselves and used what resources they have to the point where they would starve to death if the US didn't throw food and supplies at them.

Then they permit or worse yet, FUND extremist groups, who dont' wake up in the morning thinking *I have to get x done at the office today* or *I want to get that new piece mapped out on the piano today*.  They think *I need to work on that plan to kill Americans today*.  That's all they think about.  Every day.  And on September 11 they ran airplanes into buildings and killed 3000 people.  That looks like like war to me.  And I applaud George Bush for having the balls (pardon th expression) to stand up and deal with it, rather than flounder around like our last president did, and allow the situation to get worse.  If he hadn't gone after those guys, we'd be living like the jews in Israel in a few years.  I wouldn't be able to go to Starbucks for coffee without wondering if today was the day a bomb would go off there.

Whew! I dont' usually do off like that.

[liszmaninopin]

I'm sorry if I offended you, and you do make some good points, but I'd like to respond to some of them.

I do agree that many third world countries have overpopulated themselves to the point of starvation, and that the US is a major contributer to the food that goes to those people.  Alot of that food comes from kind people who want to donate money to charitable organizations that send stuff over there.  Most of the food they live off of in those countries comes from donations made my individuals in the wealthy countries.  The big corporations are not usually the ones donating to feed the poor, rather, they are the ones who employ the sweatshop labour.  Those people so employed can't provide enough money to feed the families, and so they rely on donations from citizens in western countries.  I don't mind big corporations that much, but some things they do I find disagreeable, especially when they result in the exploitation of the people or environment of the third world.

Relatively few people actually wake up with that thought, and relatively few governments fund them.  Think of all the starving millions in South America, most of Africa, huge chunks of Asia, and even the middle east.  Most of those people only think about surviving, they don't think about going out and killing americans.  Some extremists (usually deeply religious people) do go out and try to murder people, and those governments with similar views support those people.  Just don't paint foreigners with too broad a brush.  Unfortunately, all around the world, those who get the most attention are the vocal (and often extremist) minority of the population.

I disagree that we are any safer after the war in Afghanistan, but that is another debate.

[dinosaurtales]

I definitely see what you are saying.  I certainly do not intend to paint big corporations as lily white do-gooders, but they are also not the *evil* that they are painted with either.  Take me for example.  I develop large computer systems for HMOs and healthcare companies.  I'm just trying to earn a living here, and it seems to be coming from big corporations, either directly or indirectly.  The CEO's and execs I work with are great people, who take their jobs seriously.  They are as offended as I am when a few bad apples (as in Enron) make everybody look  bad, just like foreigners probably hate it when the Muslim extremist groups make everybody hate middle easterners.  But that doesn't mean I am not up to taking measures to protect myself like those people don't exist.  I also don't agree with everything our administratioin has done (I don't think I've ever agreed totally with any of them), but I believe they are serious about trying to keep these 9-11 things from happening again.  I just may not like all the steps they end up taking.  

[cziffra]

perhaps we were expecting too much of the theists by creating a new post- they haven't been explicitly told where to go and so they won't know what to do!  where's their leader!?  

i'm really just joking guys.

[TwinkleFingers]

Compare Matthew 5:22 with 23:17.

we covered this already. If you have just joined us we already said that the english translations have many flaws.  But the original scripts are perfect.
I think that this war was necessary and beneficial.  Saddam is no longer a threat to the people of Iraq(or elsewhere) libya is saying "we surrender", afganistan is certainly "disrupted".  I think that after this and anything else I missed made  the war in Iraq/afganistan well worth it.  And Im proud of the sacrifices that our troops and whoever else is helping us.

Twinkles, why don't you tell that to the Jews, the Rwandans, the Armenians etc.?

speaking for the Jews, they dont reject the God of the Bible.  Just how to get to heaven.  They dont believe Jesus was their savior.

I think it is funny that you worship a god that is so self righteous that he created a world full of human pain and suffering simply so that he could be worshipped.

God didnt create a world full of human pain and suffering. The world(before the fall of man) was perfect. Give darwin a rest and read the book of genesis when you get a chance. And God did create us so we could glorify Him. Man's main purpose is to glorify God and serve Him forever.

Do you believe that dinosaurs existed? If you do (and you would have to be a fool not to), then what the hell was god doing for those 65 million years? If you don't believe that the dinosaurs existed, then you need to have your head checked

Yes dinosaurs did exist. Its in the Bible after all which we covered previously.  You should try reading it sometime.

And when I say "proof of the bible," I mean proof that there is a god and proof that Jesus was divine etc.

There is God, there is Jesus.  Jesus was divine because he lived a perfect life on earth in the human flesh, was sacrificed, died, risen from the dead and sits at the right hand of God. You can see God's creation but not God.  For if God totally revealed Himself to man, he would perish.

So atheists don't believe in their own existence?

what purpose is your existence? why are you here?

I can choose not to believe in either him or satan. I cannot be for or against something that does not exist.

He does exist and if your not for God then you are for satan.  There is no escaping it. Whether you think you do or dont is irrelevent.

I personally don't think you should be allowed to breed),

how mature

The god of the Bible is a very jealous god

funny the bible says that too.
Exodus 20:5
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

Do not worship any other god, for the LORD , whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

get the point now?

No, I don't have to admit that the world "needed" an intelligent creator.

thats right you dont have to...you dont have to admit the sky is blue either.

My statements were two possibilities for someone who never heard of God, they either went to heaven or hell, and then I stated what the problem with either logic is.

well I thought I was answering your question by saying it is not for me to judge people. But for God to.

the Flood story is utterly impossible

as is our existance as we are today happening by "chance".

Especially I ask how marine ecosystems survived the flood.

so your saying the God who created the physical laws we live with couldnt bypass them for a flood? would that be too hard for Him?

For example, how did the Egyptian monuments built before the flood not be covered with sediment?  

The Sphinx does indeed have water marks on it even though it's in the desert, so it's probably pre-Flood and is hard evidence for the Flood. Most creationists believe that the pyramids are not as old as you think, but were built after the Flood.

[cziffra]

the Flood story is utterly impossible  

as is our existance as we are today happening by "chance".

i love it when theists do that- try to claim that something is really possible because the alternatives aren't.  it isn't actually a valid argument if you simply say "well, nothing else works, so it must be true!"

[liszmaninopin]

How do you do that quote thing?

The English scripts have many flaws, do they?  Why do they have so many flaws, is there a conspiracy amongst editors to hide the truth from us?  I suspect that if all versions have flaws, then the underlying text they are translated from is flawed as well.  Do we even have the "original manuscripts" of the Bible today? I mean the original sheets, penned by the authors themselves.  If so, where are they?  Anyway, how can we base our life around a flawed english text, like so many creationists want us to do?

How nice it is to know that my only value is as an eternal slave to some jealous, spiteful, violent, and vain god.

Those dinosaur verses in the Bible look very fishy to me, they could be construed to mean almost anything.

You can't make statements without evidence, and here you are doing that.  We have no evidence that Jesus was in any way perfect, and have very little that he even existed-some references by Josephus and the Bible.  I don't understand your statement about god perishing if he revealed himself.  This all powerful being can't even show himself?  It seems kind of cowardly to me that he demands worship but doesn't even show himself in return.

The purpose of my existance is to enjoy life and try to help others do the same.  It's not a divine purpose, but my own.

No, you think we have to be for either one, but that opinion is irrelevant.

If god is perfection, and god is jealous, then wouldn't that mean that part of perfection is jealousy?  It's funny that god seems in his laws for man to speak of jealousy (coveting they neighbor's house, wife, manservant, ox, etc.) as a sin.  Yet god is jealous, and he admits it himself.

That's a ridiculous statement.  They sky can be shown blue by observation.  The existance of a creator cannot be shown in any way.

It is not utterly impossible that we are here by chance.  There is evidence to support it (unlike the creator myth) and it makes perfect sence once someone understands a little bit about biology.  You really should read some good books on biology and evolution; it would help you understand it before you go decrying something you obviously have limited understanding of.  I don't mean to offend or criticize here, so please don't take it that way.

No, my question was to explain how the living systems survived the flood.  Coral reefs, fish, etc.  Anyway, I find evolutionary theories infinitely more plausible than some god who regularly violates his own physics laws.

This is interesting.  Creationists say that the flood formed the fossil record, correct?  The fossil record extends down hundreds of feet in some places, presumably the bottom of which was the ground before the flood.  If the sphinx was on the ground before the flood, then why isn't it buried in the sediments along with dinosaurs?  Most creationists also believe that the world is 6000 years old, so I'm not to worried about what they think about the pyramids.

[TwinkleFingers]

Do we even have the "original manuscripts" of the Bible today?

the dead sea scrolls.

[liszmaninopin]

Do the dead sea scrolls cover the entire Bible?

How do I do that quote thing?

Is that all you have to say to my post?

[cziffra]

in the "add YABBC tags" button row, it's the second from the write.  you'll get these bracket things that look like
| quote | |/quote|

you have to stick your writing inbetween the two brackets

thats how  i do it.  here, quote this for me:

"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." Aristotle

[liszmaninopin]

"We are what we repeatedly do.  Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." Aristotle

Well, I tried, lets see if it works.

[liszmaninopin]

And it does work, thanks!

[TwinkleFingers]

The purpose of my existance is to enjoy life and try to help others do the same.  It's not a divine purpose, but my own.

Its called humanism.

The English scripts have many flaws, do they?

Yes, you have a point here I think. why dont they fix these things. If that is what you are trying to say.  

then the underlying text they are translated from is flawed as well.

that is an assumption and proves nothing.

Anyway, how can we base our life around a flawed english text, like so many creationists want us to do?

we are talking minor flaws like number differences etc.  the main point(salvation by grace through faith) of the text is not flawed in any way.

How nice it is to know that my only value is as an eternal slave to some jealous, spiteful, violent, and vain god.

'The LORD is slow to anger, abounding in love and forgiving sin and rebellion. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished;
Sounds to me you are puting in your own words to describe the God of the Bible.

Those dinosaur verses in the Bible look very fishy to me

dinosaurs are reptiles not fish

This all powerful being can't even show himself?  It seems kind of cowardly

I  dont know how to describe this but God is so perfect that we would not be able to look at Him directly if he revealed Himself.  Remember in the bible "When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by"

If god is perfection, and god is jealous, then wouldn't that mean that part of perfection is jealousy?

I would assume so If God said I am a jealous God.  Unless Im taking it out of context. I wish Wired would come back and share his knowledge with us.

The existance of a creator cannot be shown in any way.

look up a couple of lines and read why God cant show Himself to us. And you can see the existance of The Creator through His creation.

[eddie92099]

Its called humanism.

Congratulations, you know a four syllable word,
Ed

[TwinkleFingers]

Congratulations, you know a four syllable word,

congratulations, you earned a spot in the smarta$$ hall of fame.

Anyway, I find evolutionary theories infinitely more plausible than some god who regularly violates his own physics laws.

can you even comprehend the term infinite?

If the sphinx was on the ground before the flood, then why isn't it buried in the sediments along with dinosaurs?

good point...i just pasted that from a website. I would have to look further into that.  Maybe it was built post-flood too.  

Most creationists also believe that the world is 6000 years old,

I dont believe that.

[liszmaninopin]

Let's keep the debate civil.

Yes, but how many original texts do we have besides the dead sea scrolls?

Yes, the message is flawed.  James seems to think that we are saved not by faith only, but by works.

The Lord is jealous, you said so yourself in a quote from the flawed English texts of the Bible.  The Lord is spiteful, for if we don't worship him just as he wants and be saved or whatever, he sends us to hell.  In OT times, he killed many people who disobeyed him even slightly, losing his temper easily and spitefully killing them.  The Lord is violent; see the above, not counting the fact that he ordered the eradication of whole civilizations (the Canaanites, for example).  He ordered women and children killed in his Bible, slaughtered thousands of newborns with plagues, exterminated almost all life on earth with the flood.  I call that violent.
The Lord is also vain, for he created little images of himself to worship him and serve him forever, he could treat these images however he wanted, and they had no choice but to go along.  This vain god wants all to serve him, and those who don't, he kills.  I think my description of the god of the Bible is accurate, and the verse you cite seems to show a contradiction of character.  Maybe god has a split personality.

That's clever, I had to smile reading that little quip.  But seriously, one really could make those verses mean anything one wants them to mean.

Don't worry about taking it out of context.  First of all, its flawed English text, so any problems can be explained that way.  Also, in a supposedly perfect book, Iwould imagine God wants it to be easy to understand.

Honestly, when I look at the world, I don't see the existance of a creator.  Perhaps you do, and that is fine, but I suppose I am completely blind to the truth.

[liszmaninopin]

No, I can't truly comprehend infinite.  Perhaps I used poor word choice.  Perhaps much more plausible is better.

While you're looking up ancient Egypt, check out if you can find an explanation for the written records that continue straight through the supposed flood year, with no deterioration or change in culture.

How old do you think it is, then?  I'm really actually curious, as most creationists I know personally are convinced of a 6006 year old world.

[TwinkleFingers]

How old do you think it is, then?  I'm really actually curious, as most creationists I know personally are convinced of a 6006 year old world.

its not important to me how old the earth is. But Im guessing  between 6000 and 10000 years old.  

Honestly, when I look at the world, I don't see the existance of a creator

aside from the chaos that sinful man creates, there is a definite order to the way things function and how they are structured.  Too complex for a random chance.

Yes, the message is flawed.  James seems to think that we are saved not by faith only, but by works.

put the verse down for that...that is totally backward.  That is the way catholics think.  You work your way to heaven without the need of a savior. We could never earn our way to heaven.  We are sinful and always are going to be that way till heaven. Jesus is the only way for our sins to be forgiven.

The Lord is jealous, you said so yourself in a quote from the flawed English texts of the Bible.

that term is used differently than you are thinking. Usually, jealousy arises because of feelings of love.  If a man's wife was to become drawn to another man, he would become jealous because of his love for her.  Not a contradiction.

[In OT times, he killed many people who disobeyed him even slightly,/quote]violent yes. But these people were full of sin, unrepentent, and had to be wiped out.  I dont know why God creates these people to be wiped out. Maybe to show his love for His people(not just isrealites but for all who believe in Him) and to set an example of those who disobey.  You have to understand God created us so we could glorify Him.  Not ourselves.  

The Lord is also vain, for he created little images of himself to worship him and serve him forever,

little images?? what are you talking about?

[liszmaninopin]

The universe is not too complex for random chance.

I guess you mean to share the reference?  It is James 2:24.

By little images, I mean humans.  According to Genesis, we are in the image of god.

[TwinkleFingers]

By little images, I mean humans.  According to Genesis, we are in the image of god

right. we are created in His image.

The universe is not too complex for random chance.

Have you ever observed something become more complex and ordered by complete randomness, without prior instruction or information?

[liszmaninopin]

Such arrogance, for human authors to write of being made in the "image" of god.  And how vain for a god to want to make little worshipful images of himself.

No, of course I've never witnessed it, as I don't think that there's a system in the universe now that is completely random.  There is evidence of it.  For example, studies show that galaxies farther away from us are moving more quickly than those closer.  This implies an expansion of the "fabric" of spacetime, of which the best analogy I can think of is an explosion.  When the speeds are calculated, it shows that at one point in the past all matter must have been at one point called a singularity.  In a way, that it ordered, as compared with the chaos of expansion.  Most things in the universe could have been formed by comlex interreactions of gravity and other forces.  One example of increasing complexity is when atoms form molecules.  Sometimes, life forms evolve increasing complexity.

[schnabels_grandson]

Posted by: Liszmaninopin Posted on: Today at 7:27pm
Such arrogance, for human authors to write of being made in the "image" of god.  And how vain for a god to want to make little worshipful images of himself.

No, of course I've never witnessed it, as I don't think that there's a system in the universe now that is completely random.  There is evidence of it.  For example, studies show that galaxies farther away from us are moving more quickly than those closer.  This implies an expansion of the "fabric" of spacetime, of which the best analogy I can think of is an explosion.  When the speeds are calculated, it shows that at one point in the past all matter must have been at one point called a singularity.  In a way, that it ordered, as compared with the chaos of expansion.  Most things in the universe could have been formed by comlex interreactions of gravity and other forces.  One example of increasing complexity is when atoms form molecules.  Sometimes, life forms evolve increasing complexity.  

Here's my thought.  The big bang theory claims that a huge explosion bilions of years ago caused what we know as the universe to come about, right?
Well, suppose that that explosion was not a random occurence but was caused by God.  I think this is more likely than an explosion coming from nothing.  While I strongly disagree with evoloution,  I think that if it is the way we came about, God was behind it.

About the world being 6000 years old:  It is absurd to think so.  The bible doesn't say anything to support that notion.  Humans on the other hand, according to the bible, have only been around for that long.

About the originality of bible texts:  There are NO know surviving original manuscripts from the actual writers.  The dead sea scrolls are just copies of the Old Testament and other jewish religious writings.  However, the copyists were extremely careful about their copies, the Masorites even counted the letters to ensure accuracy.  the New Testament was not (to my knowledge) preserved as well.  I still don't doubt the validity of Either group of Scripture.        

Posted by liszmaninopin on: Dec 25th, 2003, 5:57am:

Okay, I will name some.
Science error:  Besides the cud-chewing rabbits, four legged locusts, bats as birds, and other abominations of simple observation in Leviticus; the Flood story is utterly impossible.  Especially I ask how marine ecosystems survived the flood.  

Just thought I'd tell you that Hares DO chew cud, in a round about way at least.
https://www.tektonics.org/cudchewers.html

Also, this question about marine ecosystems really boggles me.  I fail to see how a flood of water would kill animals that lived in water.

[dinosaurtales]

Actually, as weird as it may sound, he's right.  Marine life lives in a fairly delicate balance.  If you think of the world's water as fresh (inland rivers and lakes), salt (the oceans) and estuaries (where fresh waters flow into salt waters and have medium salinity), the marine life lives in some combination of those three things - salinity is important.  Also the depth (i.e. pressure) is critical, and the amount of movement (still water vs oceanic waves or currents).  Plus a bunch of other things I doin't even know about - define the environment for marine life.  Much disturbance at all and populations die.  So a world wide flood, that raised the sea level even an inch, would also disrupt the salinity and wave action and the stuff that was used to living in saline still water, would not have that environment.  Mostly, the marine life would be toast.  Don't know waht this has to say about the *great flood*.

[eddie92099]

The Lord is jealous, you said so yourself in a quote from the flawed English texts of the Bible.  The Lord is spiteful, for if we don't worship him just as he wants and be saved or whatever, he sends us to hell.  In OT times, he killed many people who disobeyed him even slightly, losing his temper easily and spitefully killing them.  The Lord is violent; see the above, not counting the fact that he ordered the eradication of whole civilizations (the Canaanites, for example).  He ordered women and children killed in his Bible, slaughtered thousands of newborns with plagues, exterminated almost all life on earth with the flood.  I call that violent.
The Lord is also vain, for he created little images of himself to worship him and serve him forever, he could treat these images however he wanted, and they had no choice but to go along.  This vain god wants all to serve him, and those who don't, he kills.

The similarities between god and Hitler are extraordinary!
Ed

[liszmaninopin]

It's possible that the Big Bang was caused by god, but I suspect it must have been someinternal force within the singularity, because according to the modern thoughts of the universe, nothing existed outside of the singularity, just as nothing now exists outside of the universe.  That would mean that it had to be internally caused, which would show that god must be restricted to the universe if he caused the Big Bang.

It is good that you recognize how ludicrous the notion of a 6000 year old earth is.  But I am very serious when I state that I know many people who think it is so.  There are written records that go back farther than that!

How do we know that they were translated faithfully?  Some editor could easily have changed a word that he didn't agree with, and we'd never know.  We can't even know what is correct and what isn't about the current Bible.  How can we say that the original texts were perfect if we don't even have them?  It seems kind of ridiculous to worry about texts that don't even exist anymore.

That explanation about chewing cud seems kind of like they are trying to avoid answering the question clearly.  Anyway, even if I gave the Hebrew authors the benefit of the doubt, they still have to answer for the four legged locusts and bats being called birds.

I will try to detail some of the problems I see with the marine aspect of the flood.  I have already posted most of these in RDR part 2.

All the fish in the world live in a very fine balance of salinity, turbidity, sunlight, temperature, minerals, dissolved oxygen, pressure, etc.  A worldwide flood would change all those drastically, killing the vast majority of fish species except a couple of the very hardiest.  Coral reefs take thousands of years to form.  They would certainly have been killed by the flood, as would have all the delicate ecosystems that depend on them.  The Great Barrier Reef, for example, could not have formed since the flood.  (It would require evolution millions of times faster than any evolutionist believes is possible)  Certain fish need currents of certain temperatures to survive, and they would have died.  Some fish species live only in one or two delicate streams, they would have died.  Some fish live in a surf zone, they would have died.

Some other problems relate to the ark.  For example, could you imagine how heavily solar radiation would bombard the ark if it was high enough up to cover the tallest mountain?  Also, all the increased volume of the oceans would have displaced atmosphere slightly, thinning it out at the elevation of the ark.  Noah probably had to have a garden in the ark (some species don't reproduce except under very specific conditions)  Think of all the specialized lichens, mosses, ferns, molds, etc. that could not have been kept alive aboard the ark.  Think of the snakes and spiders that must eat live food.  The logistics are so ridiculous that I find the flood story impossible.

[chopiabin]

Twinkles said that Jews don't believe that Jesus is their savior. Are they going to hell? And if so, are you saying hitler was right? Where are these alleged dinosaur passages? The bible in NO WAY OUTSIDE OF THE BIBLE PROOVES THAT JESUS WAS DIVINE! Read a little biology - abiosynthesis is a very understandable and sensical notion that has been observed in laboratories. About humans only having been around for 6000 years - are you insane?! THERE ARE OTHER RELIGIONS BESIDES CHRISTIANITY! SOME OF THEM HAVE EXISTED FOR LONGER THAN 6000 YEARS! There are cave paintings, ruins, tons of other things that are older than 6000 years!

Read some biology!!!!
Chop

[TwinkleFingers]

About humans only having been around for 6000 years - are you insane?!

who said this? I said I dont agree with that

Most things in the universe could have been formed by comlex interreactions of gravity and other forces.

Right...God.

The similarities between god and Hitler are extraordinary!

ignorance at its best

[eddie92099]

ignorance at its best

Fine. I will qualify my statement.

"The Lord is jealous, you said so yourself in a quote from the flawed English texts of the Bible."

Hitler was jealous of the so-called Aryan master race. It is well documented that he did indeed have some Jewish blood in him.

"The Lord is spiteful, for if we don't worship him just as he wants and be saved or whatever, he sends us to hell.  In OT times, he killed many people who disobeyed him even slightly, losing his temper easily and spitefully killing them."

Hitler made his soldiers swear an oath of allegiance to him. If they did not comply then they would be sent to a concentration camp to be gassed.

"The Lord is violent; see the above, not counting the fact that he ordered the eradication of whole civilizations (the Canaanites, for example).  He ordered women and children killed in his Bible, slaughtered thousands of newborns with plagues, exterminated almost all life on earth with the flood.  I call that violent."  

Hitler is violent. He ordered the eradication of whole civilizations (the Jews, for example). He ordered woman and children killed, slaughtered thousands of newborns with toxic gas, exterminated all life in Germany and beyond that was not part of the Aryan master race. I call that violent.

"The Lord is also vain, for he created little images of himself to worship him and serve him forever, he could treat these images however he wanted, and they had no choice but to go along.  This vain god wants all to serve him, and those who don't, he kills."  

Hitler (as I have just said) made all his soldiers swear an oath of allegiance to him to worship him and serve him forever. He could treat these men how he wanted and they had no choice but to go along. This vain man wants all to serve him, and those who don't, he kills.

As you can see, I don't make empty statements,
Ed

[liszmaninopin]

I find it amusing that you just quoted one of my posts.  I find it amazing how we must repeat these things constantly.

[TwinkleFingers]

he could treat these images however he wanted, and they had no choice but to go along.

you should have the desire to go along.  after all,life is a gift from God to us.  Why do you even try to figure out God. Our finite minds cannot understand an infinite God!  

[eddie92099]

Why do you even try to figure out God. Our finite minds cannot understand an infinite God!  

We are not trying to understand god. We are trying to understand your arguments (I use the term loosely) vis-a-vis his existence,
Ed

[TwinkleFingers]

well your trying to compare Him with Hitler.  Your trying to understand why God would let someone die or even create them so they could die.  I dont know why He would do such a thing and you dont either.  We might never know or maybe we will find out when we get to heaven.

[eddie92099]

well your trying to compare Him with Hitler.

I was comparing the bible's interpretation of him with Hitler.

Your trying to understand why God would let someone die or even create them so they could die.  I dont know why He would do such a thing and you dont either.  We might never know or maybe we will find out when we get to heaven.

I'm not going to heaven,
Ed

[chopiabin]

For some reason twink, you seem to think that we are pissed at god or something. No, we are not. We simply do not believe in god or an afterlife, so saying "why do you try to understand god" is very silly because we are not trying to understand god. We are trying to show the flaws both doctrinal and scientific with your religion. We (or at least I ) do not believe that there is any inherent meaning in life, and therefore the existence of a god is simply proposterous.

Chopi