overrated pianists of the 20th century

[fiesta]

 My favourite pianists are.They are all beautifull,wonderfull.  
 Live:
1)Uchida
2)Argerich
3)Pogorelich
4)Brendel
5)Ashkenazy
 Dead:
1)Arrau
2)Horowitz
3)Kempff
4)Gilels
5)Serkin
What's your opininon?
Fiesta  

[IgnazPaderewski]

Live:
1)Uchida  - Excellent (only schoenberg Ive ever heard that communicates something to me)
2)Argerich  - wonderful (wish she'd read the scores she plays though - her Liszt sonata is appalingly unfaithful to the text)
3)Pogorelich - bloody idiot with good fingers and no brain he can suck on my balls and swallow
4)Brendel - dunno, have mixed feelings, alternating between "that was crap you pretentious git" and "pretty damn good".
5)Ashkenazy - DREADFUL!
 Dead:
1)Arrau - heavy, but can be very beautiful
2)Horowitz - Horowitz
3)Kempff - never been too much of a fan
4)Gilels - love him, gorgeous sound
5)Serkin - loath him, horrible sound

[eddie92099]

3)Pogorelich - bloody idiot with good fingers and no brain he can suck on my balls and swallow
5)Ashkenazy - DREADFUL!

You are a fool,
Ed

[IgnazPaderewski]

likewise dickwad  

[comme_le_vent]

dickwad? try skanky-ass *** shitpie fuckwad, pissface!
ed hasnt got the ability to use big words like that.

overrated pianist - argerich

[cziffra]

that's really good.  very sohpisticated conversation.  i'm glad i'm in the company of intelligent musicians.

[liszmaninopin]

There's a wide range of sophistication on this board.

[fiesta]

Of course yes.Shame on you pianists.A real,professional pianist must never use  words like that.They must be pure spiritually.However, who are we to blasphemy  great pianists? I can  see that you can't say a word without blasphemy.
May God forgive you for Your words.
fiesta  

[liszmaninopin]

It's true that any one of those greats is probably better than anybody on this forum, so criticising them in a way could be looked upon badly; but we can do comparisons.  By the way, fiesta, I suggest you don't bring the religion debate over to this thread; or we'll never hear the end of it.

[fiesta]

Liszmaninopin,I agree with You, but love will save the world.
fiesta

[eddie92099]

likewise dickwad  

So you don't like Pogorelich, but you like Paderewski? That kind of ignorance speaks for itself,
Ed

[IgnazPaderewski]

There is no point discussing anything with a stuck-up mother-*** toff like you ed,

Just for the record, Paderewski was a great pianist (in his earlier recordings), but most of our evidence of his playing comes from past the age of about 70. There are wonderful things in his playing though. The reason I admire paderewski so much is he was a great man, a great human who hauled himself out of retirement age 80 to raise money for Poland. He was a great politician (Lloyd George thought so), and was generally a cultured man. We can still find great things in his playing, in an 80 year old you look for what is good in a performance, not what is bad.

Pogorelich is a sh*t who can lick the crusty crap off my ***.

[eddie92099]

Your argument really does lose all credibility when you start swearing in your uniquely ineloquent manner.
There is no doubt in my mind that Paderewski was a great man. Pogorelich, though, is a great musician,
Ed

[krenske]

Well...
Im drinking a very nice champagne at the moment.

[IgnazPaderewski]

Its all very well to act superior ed, but we all know you have a small winkle. Needledick.

[nad]

Its all very well to act superior ed, but we all know you have a small winkle. Needledick.

What's up with your attitude? Got a problem there?
Obviously, you're suffering of something which psychiatrists call "projection"  ........ LOL  

[trunks]

Some of the most grossly overrated pianists in my opinion (save from taking offence my friends, if you happen to be their fans - this is just my opinion):

Deceased:
1. Vladimir Horowitz. Believe me I have never liked any single piece he has recorded or played live that I have ever heard, except Russians like Skriabin. Flashy, showy technician too eager to prove himself - 'See? I can do anything better than all you guys!'
2. Artur Schnabel. Badly played Beethoven. Almost hurts my ears - just wondering if his fingers were diminutive hammers. How he earned his fame of the 'first Beethoven authority' remains a mystery to me.
3. Glenn Gould. Er . . . Bach for Beethoven, Bach for Chopin, Bach for everybody else?
4. Sergei Rachmaninoff. Oh well, he didn't even convince me with his own set of Concertos, let alone Chopin. Listen to his Ampico-roll reproduction of the Chopin Scherzo in Bb minor, Op.31 and you'll get a flavour of what I call infuriating performance.

Living:
1. Martha Argerich, hand-in-hand with Ivo Pogorelich (and yes, I have seen Pogorelich live, shook hands with him, and got his autograph). Clearly these two pianists put too much of themselves in the music they play, not uncommonly to the point of distortion. Technically yes, they are among the world's Number One, but so what, if they don't sound musical?
2. Marc-Andre Hamelin. Again one of the supremely impeccable pianists, but then the music?

Now on some quite underrated living pianists:
1. Alicia de Larrocha
2. Cecile Ousset
These are outstanding ladies who easily outperform musically an Argerich and even many great male pianists. Ousset's recital in Hong Kong back in the early-mid 1990s captivated me in awe with her programme, particularly so with Ravel and Liszt. Technique and music alike. Great thing about them is that they don't put too much of themselves in the music they play.
3. Leslie Howard. His Liszt is not only absolutely the most comprehensive, but also very good and convincing overall. Now he could move on to other composers.

[thracozaag]

Some of the most grossly overrated pianists in my opinion (save from taking offence my friends, if you happen to be their fans - this is just my opinion):

Deceased:
1. Vladimir Horowitz. Believe me I have never liked any single piece he has recorded or played live that I have ever heard, except Russians like Skriabin. Flashy, showy technician too eager to prove himself - 'See? I can do anything better than all you guys!'
2. Artur Schnabel. Badly played Beethoven. Almost hurts my ears - just wondering if his fingers were diminutive hammers. How he earned his fame of the 'first Beethoven authority' remains a mystery to me.
3. Glenn Gould. Er . . . Bach for Beethoven, Bach for Chopin, Bach for everybody else?
4. Sergei Rachmaninoff. Oh well, he didn't even convince me with his own set of Concertos, let alone Chopin. Listen to his Ampico-roll reproduction of the Chopin Scherzo in Bb minor, Op.31 and you'll get a flavour of what I call infuriating performance.

 Permit me to throw up now.

[trunks]

Oh sure, Thracozaag, please feel free to throw up.
I often had the urge to puke when listening to these pianists.

[thracozaag]

Oh sure, Thracozaag, please feel free throw up.
I often had the urge to puke when listening to these pianists.

 How...sad for you.

[trunks]

Sad? No I'm happy. Why?
I'm so glad and won't regret not liking them.
'Horowitz with devilish technique?'
I mean, who would care to adore the Devil if there is God around? Hm . . .

[thracozaag]

Sad? No I'm happy. Why?
I'm so glad and won't regret not liking them.
'Horowitz with devilish technique?'
I mean, who would care to adore the Devil if there is God around? Hm . . .

 Now you've gone from amusing to ridiculous.  Congrats.

[faulty_damper]

HUH?!?  Claudio Arrau is dead?!?  When did that happen?  Yes, when did that happen?  Wasn't he still alive, like, last year in 2002?

[thracozaag]

HUH?!?  Claudio Arrau is dead?!?  When did that happen?  Yes, when did that happen?  Wasn't he still alive, like, last year in 2002?

 Arrau passed away in 1991.

[faulty_damper]

Really?  He did?  Wow.  Video recordings make everyone look alive.

[trunks]

Now you've gone from amusing to ridiculous.  Congrats.

Now perhaps you could elaborate on your opinions rather than playing around scornfully at mine.
Cheers!

[comme_le_vent]

arrau is as dead as they come.

i would be glad if you joined him peterHK.

[thracozaag]

Now perhaps you could elaborate on your opinions rather than playing around scornfully at mine.
Cheers!

 Why should I waste any more time?  You've denigrated four of the legendary performers of the entire 20th century.  Apparently anyone with either fingers or ideas offends you pianistically.  I find that extremely strange, but you of course, are entitled to your opinion, however bizarre they might be.

[trunks]

arrau is as dead as they come.
i would be glad if you joined him peterHK.

Yup sure, after you, my friend.
And again elaborate on your opinions, would you folks please?

[IgnazPaderewski]

Give him a break, thracozaag. Hes allowed not to like them. However, I do disagree with all comments he made apart from the fact that Horowitz is overrated and Howard is underrated. Horowitz was perfection up to about age 40. All the celebrated late recordings have wondeful things, but others (such as Schnabel, gould or Rachmaninoff) have played better, to my mind. And I find it amazing how in the age of ultra-accuracy, horowitz is allowed to *** up constantly. Don't try and pick holes in this, I used to be a horowitz nut and have listened to every recording he ever made 10 times over. Damaged my playing for years.....

[comme_le_vent]

whats with these homies dissin my hammy?(weezer parody)

i can see that you dont like distortion of musicality, but where the *** are you coming from dissin hamelin?

i mean i cant think of any other musician who presents the music with any less ego, and consequentially any more attention to the composer's intentions.

methinks you just hear these dudes once and judge them from that, please listen to hamelin 300 more times then come to me with a more erudite opinion.

[IgnazPaderewski]

hear hear, hamelin is MARVELLOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

he does not have the extra... something of a gilels or argerich though.... perhaps this is his intention.....

He is, nevertheless, a fantastic pianist who i have the highest respect for as a scholar and musician - he has done for alkan and rzewski (and sorabji etc.) what Leslie howard did for the unknown corners of liszts ouevre -  and his technique is unparalled.

[trunks]

Why should I waste any more time?  You've denigrated four of the legendary performers of the entire 20th century.  Apparently anyone with either fingers or ideas offends you pianistically.  I find that extremely strange, but you of course, are entitled to your opinion, however bizarre they might be.

Now is that what you have deduced from my words? Just the contrary, many people who have fingers and ideas not only never offend me, but highly amuse me, like the three that I had mentioned above. Also like Alfred Brendel, like Jorg Demus, like Artur Rubinstein, like Wilhelm Kempff, like Phillippe Entremont, like even some from my 'dislike group' - such as Argerich on Ravel, Horowitz on Skriabin . . .

And as a relatively new comer (I joined late last month) I already have the feeling that there is hostility from some friends here - and as always I treat everyone as friends - especially when clear sides are taken.

Can't you folks show some nice etiquette and disagree in respect? Agreed, comme_le_vent? Let's be friends here rather than sneering at each others.

[thracozaag]

Give him a break, thracozaag. Hes allowed not to like them. However, I do disagree with all comments he made apart from the fact that Horowitz is overrated and Howard is underrated. Horowitz was perfection up to about age 40. All the celebrated late recordings have wondeful things, but others (such as Schnabel, gould or Rachmaninoff) have played better, to my mind. And I find it amazing how in the age of ultra-accuracy, horowitz is allowed to *** up constantly. Don't try and pick holes in this, I used to be a horowitz nut and have listened to every recording he ever made 10 times over. Damaged my playing for years.....

Of course he's allowed not to like them.  But to dismiss four pianists of that stature outright is simply ridiculous.  Do I think Argerich and Richter are overrated?  Absolutely, but I still respect the hell out of them.

[comme_le_vent]

*** etiquette, you threw that right out the fuckin window when you came in with you idiotic hamelin and horowitz statements.

tell me what the hell is wrong with hamelin?

[trunks]

*** etiquette, you threw that right out the fuckin window when you came in with you idiotic hamelin and horowitz statements.
tell me what the hell is wrong with hamelin?

Enough said.
You have already answered your own question with your very nice manners.

[thracozaag]

Enough said.
You have already answered your own question with your very nice manners.

 Yes, for someone who extolls the virtues of Brendel, that was probably far too much passion for you to ingest in one sitting.

[comme_le_vent]

my use of the word '***' is for expressive purposes only, not intentionally used to cause offense.

my use of the word 'cunt' in this sentence- on the other hand - is designed to cause offense ....

you are a cunt peterHK

[trunks]

my use of the word '***' is for expressive purposes only, not intentionally used to cause offense.
my use of the word 'cunt' in this sentence- on the other hand - is designed to cause offense ....
you are a cunt peterHK

Lovely.
Immaturity never offends me.
I understand that this is not how you act, but who you are.

[comme_le_vent]

ok thats all good, but can we get back to the point.

make your argument for hamelin being a bad musician.

[trunks]

ok thats all good, but can we get back to the point.
make your argument for hamelin being a bad musician.

Hamelin's strong point (as for Horowitz), as I've already said, is his almost peerless virtuosity. Ok, if I were to watch him live, even I would be amused and dazzled. But then music is another realm. Hamelin may somehow under some chemistry speak to your heart in such a way that you admire him so much. That is totally good for you - and I would fight to the end to defend and respect your right to like him.

But that chemistry doesn't work for me. Why I don't know. I need not know and need not account for it. Simple answer is - I am a different person from you, brought up under different cultures and exposed to different musical influences. All I could say is that showmanship is a pleasure to my eyes more than my ears, while musicianship is the exact reverse.

Have I listened to much music? Most definitely. My collection of CDs and vinyl LPs amount to the thousands. Perhaps that suffices to entitle me to my opinion?

And yes Thracozaag, Brendel is one of my most admired musicians, with passion or without passion.

[thracozaag]

Hamelin's strong point (as for Horowitz), as I've already said, is his almost peerless virtuosity. Ok, if I were to watch him live, even I would be amused and dazzled. But then music is another realm. Hamelin may somehow under some chemistry speak to your heart in such a way that you admire him so much. That is totally good for you - and I would fight to the end to defend and respect your right to like him.

But that chemistry doesn't work for me. Why I don't know. I need not know and need not account for it. Simple answer is - I am a different person from you, brought up under different cultures and exposed to different musical influences. All I could say is that showmanship is a pleasure to my eyes more than my ears, while musicianship is the exact reverse.

Have I listened to much music? Most definitely. My collection of CDs and vinyl LPs amount to the thousands. Perhaps that suffices to entitle me to my opinion?

And yes Thracozaag, Brendel is one of my most admired musicians, with passion or without passion.

 Clearly you didn't hear Hamelin's Schubert B-flat sonata, then.  

[IgnazPaderewski]

what?!?!?!!??! hamelin plays D.960? I would love to hear that (maybe he can convince me not to fall asleep  )

Back to original topic, I think brendel is very overrated (I have just decided after much indecision after listening to more of his Beethoven sonatas). I swear I can play better than that - bad piano sound, muddy pedalling, DISGRACEFUL mannerisms in places, wrong notes and little musical understanding displayed (he seems to have no idea of what the E minor op.90 is about at all). He can play the hammerklavier like a bastard (dvd performance) however

[thracozaag]

what?!?!?!!??! hamelin plays D.960? I would love to hear that (maybe he can convince me not to fall asleep  )

Back to original topic, I think brendel is very overrated (I have just decided after much indecision after listening to more of his Beethoven sonatas). I swear I can play better than that - bad piano sound, muddy pedalling, DISGRACEFUL mannerisms in places, wrong notes and little musical understanding displayed (he seems to have no idea of what the E minor op.90 is about at all). He can play the hammerklavier like a bastard (dvd performance) however

His Haydn is wonderful, though.  I basically slept through the last recital he played, but then for an encore he played the Haydn G major sonata, and it was phenomenal.  I wish he would have played an all Haydn recital.

[comme_le_vent]

yeah brendel is pretty good in most stuff, i actually like his beethoven.

but the best brendel ive heard are his liszt hungarian rhapsodies - awesome stuff.

[MikeLauwrie]

Rubinstien

[ayahav]

comme_le_vent,

as it happens, Brendel happens to be quite authoritative on all 32 Beethoven sonatas... So many people (as those who think him authoritative) can't possibly be wrong...

[anda]

pogorelic, uchida (at least based on what i listened personally, she doesn't have much to say), arrau, and top of the list, helene grimaud! about kissin, i heard some pretty incredible stuff and also some recitals i totally hated.

to anyone who hates martha argerich - i had something to say, but i'll behave and let you guess what it was.

oh, and ed, if you hate richter i hate you - only one of the most important pianists of all times!

[ayahav]

I really enjoyed the recital I watched by Mitsuko Uchida. I also really liked Pogorelic. I watched Bella Davidovich two times... The first time was horrible, I think she just picked music that didn't suit her... She's a small, old woman, and she played Prokofieff's Romeo and Juliet and other HUGE BIG pieces. The second time she played Chopin's Fantasy and 8 other waltzes, and Schumann's Carnaval Op.9 and that was amazing..... so I'm not sure if the first was a bad hair day, or the second was a good hair day....... hehe.

[faulty_damper]

whats with these homies dissin my hammy?(weezer parody)

i can see that you dont like distortion of musicality, but where the *** are you coming from dissin hamelin?

i mean i cant think of any other musician who presents the music with any less ego, and consequentially any more attention to the composer's intentions.

methinks you just hear these dudes once and judge them from that, please listen to hamelin 300 more times then come to me with a more erudite opinion.

Hamelin's recording of Alkan: Symphony for solo piano - I noticed some slight pedalling deficiencies in the first movement, right near the beginning.  That was the first thing off I noticed the first time I played it.  I ignore it now.  But still, if I noticed it the first time I heard it...