Is Fur Elise unabashedly erotic?

[barnowl]

It starts off sublime enough, then the music goes flighty and it's Elise and
Ludvig going tee-hee, giggle-giggle, in a bit of heavy petting. Then Elise
coyly reverts to the chaste teeny bopper, but the next thing you know,

WHAM!!!

they've slammed the lid on the piano and are going full throttle on top of it.

And back to sublime, as they lie back to smoke cigars, drink schnapps, and
worryabout what Napoleon's going to do next.

Hey! Don't blame me. Beethoven's the one drawing the dirty pictures. 

[maestoso]

that's pretty cool. i try to discern that song but all i come up with is schroeder playing the song for snoop and him crying. lol

[pianistimo]

this should be in the 'men' thread.  men have always been known to put more into a piece than should be.  women, on the other hand are known to listen to fur elise and think that beethoven composed it whilst just thinking and dreaming of her.  of course, elise could have been one of those dollar dames around the corner and beethoven upped her a few notches.  but, if my memory serves me correct - she was probably a young woman that took a few lessons and knew a little of piano and could play the piece he composed for her. 

beethoven was a genius - so there is little need to make him a sex god, too.  he probably had some kind of dysfunction which made him play piano and compose more intensely.  personally, i think he gained as much thrill from nature as sex.  i think he was a bit of a shakespearean, too.  you hear pondering in his music.  first a question.  then a discussion.  and then, a responsive answer.  prometheus comes to mind.

[maestoso]

   I think it is painting a new canvas when i hear works with such an intense feel. call me wierd but it doesn't have a human reference it is more elemental.

[persona]

I never thought of Fur Elise that way, but let me tell you, I find in the third movement of appasionatta very very explicit erotism. The way I see it, the first movement is him conquering a woman and getting over a bad experience from the past. In the second one, both of them are lying on the grass simply holding hands and looking at the sky. And on the third movement they go to bed and well... you know the rest.

[debussy symbolism]

Greetings.

The very beauty of art lies in it's power of fantasy and endless interpretations, unique to each individual. Whether a piece is unequivocally maudlin or otherwise robust, it will bear a special notion amongs both interpeters and listeners alike. That said, I think it is very clever of you, Barnown, to interpret the given piece as you did, of course not to mention the myriad other interpretations that can arise out of pure thought. For example in Bach's small pieces, not to mention his larger works, it is amazing of how much information Bach can fit into such succinct works. I often imagine different instruments when playing his works in accordance to timbre, color, and otherwise sound. This is a difference between a mediocre work composed by a maladroit, and an overall informative and ingenious work, as in the case of Bach mentioned earlier. The ability to evoke color and meaning, as both of the suggested pieces, Fur Elise and hopefully the one I suggested accomplish.

[invictious]

I only find it easier to play Fur Elise with a picture of a sexy woman beside the music score, really, that's my interpretation.

You can't separate sex from music 

Just look at Chopin...and Debussy.

Without George Sand, Chopin won't be as great 

[barnowl]

How might Elise herself reacted when she showed up for her lesson, and heard
Beethoven play it for the first time?

If she were attracted to him, we wouldn't be surprised if she got aroused.

Ah, but if Elise were not drawn to Beethoven sexually, and if she was a little uncomfortable with his clumsy advances,* that piece might have ended the relationship entirely.


*Beethoven tweren't no smooth dude, from what I've read of him.


DS - "tweren't" is sort of a hillbilly "wasn't". How's your mother?

[pianistimo]

according to wikipedia - it could have been mistranscribed and meant for therese.  the notes E are used for sure.  we are not sure what the D# stands for.  or, for that matter,the other letters.

trying to figure this out - is similar to figuring out what brahms was writing to clara in the op. 118 #2.  there are a lot of E's and F's.   it is my suspicion they stand for  eusebius and floristan.  also, there are obvious references to Clara with the C's and A's and references to Brahm's with the B's. 

 

[barnowl]

Anyway, I'm glad he didn't compose a Fur Scheiereule. 

Oh.

Debussy, I meant that "How's your mother?" sincerely. The last we heard, she had a headache.

[pianistimo]

in taiwan and iran, the tune is played by garbage trucks so that people know when it's trash day.

[leucippus]

in taiwan and iran, the tune is played by garbage trucks so that people know when it's trash day.

Ewwwwwwweeeeee,... such sluttish garbage. 

[barnowl]

There are no places on earth such as taiwan or iran.

Taiwan, yes. Iran, yes. Timbuktu, maybe.

Now that you have at last learned to spell personal pronouns properly, it is time you discover the Shift Key, Pianistimo. 

[leucippus]

~~~

Beethoven's Für Elise
was an attempt to get a piece
from a sexy female student
who may have been his niece

Such incendiary rumors
have become malignant tumors
in the pianistic world
of written-score consumers

Should the piece be played with purity,
with innocuous maturity?
Or be taken by demonic curses,
to the depths of vile obscurity?

There are no answers to these questions
they yield to pianist's impressions
to their emotional expressions
and passionate obsessions

~~~

(Leucippus 9/20/06)

[barnowl]

Nicely done, Leucippus!

Have you noticed, Pianistimo, that some
people know how to use capitals? 

Hmmm. Looks as if she's left us forever (once again).

[debussy symbolism]

Anyway, I'm glad he didn't compose a Fur Scheiereule. 

Oh.

Debussy, I meant that "How's your mother?" sincerely. The last we heard, she had a headache.

She is fine. I can perfectly undestand her concerning relaxation and practicing. Sometimes, one has got to think about others. Thank you for your concern.

[barnowl]

according to wikipedia - it could have been mistranscribed and meant for therese.  the notes E are used for sure.  we are not sure what the D# stands for.  or, for that matter,the other letters.

trying to figure this out - is similar to figuring out what brahms was writing to clara in the op. 118 #2.  there are a lot of E's and F's.   it is my suspicion they stand for  eusebius and floristan.  also, there are obvious references to Clara with the C's and A's and references to Brahm's with the B's. 

They were more advanced than we thought! Floristan in the toothpaste. Vunderbar!

[debussy symbolism]

Look at Schumann's Abegg variations.

[barnowl]

Look at Schumann's Abegg variations.

Absolutely! Not only Floristan, there  but Viagra in the drinking water as well.

Shameless.

[ted]

Threads of this type have appeared before. I do not find any music particularly erotic. There is no connection whatsoever between music and sex for me. I am at liberty to apply any mental images to any sound, but why I should wish to apply erotic ones escapes me. However, as we have seen, many people assert the contrary, and I know at least one contemporary composer of very accomplished piano music who states eroticism to be fundamental to his whole musical aesthetic. The association is therefore completely optional, and if it helps we should use it.

[ada]

women, on the other hand are known to listen to fur elise and think that beethoven composed it whilst just thinking and dreaming of her.   

crap. I'm with barnowl on this one. And if we're talking music to get excited by you can't go past the third movement of the moonlight.

Beethoven was an extremely attractive man. I for one wouldn't have kicked him out if he farted 

[barnowl]

But Ada, didn't all the women in his life, not want Beethoven for a lover? If yes, how come?

I have read he was unkempt, which may have been a euphemism for being malodorous. Einstein was that way. Very poor hygiene.

[debussy symbolism]

Bodily hygiene is very much hackneyed in my opinion. I don't see the point in spending as much as a though on it, whereas it should only be part of a routine, not a ritual. I absolutely detest people that shower ten times a day and concern with their looks and what they wear. If I go outside, I put on clean clothes sure, but I don't ever think about which clothes I am putting on, given that it isn't a special occasion. Concerning hygiene, all I can say is that it's trite.

[barnowl]

Bodily hygiene is very much hackneyed in my opinion. I don't see the point in spending as much as a though on it, whereas it should only be part of a routine, not a ritual. I absolutely detest people that shower ten times a day and concern with their looks and what they wear. If I go outside, I put on clean clothes sure, but I don't ever think about which clothes I am putting on, given that it isn't a special occasion. Concerning hygiene, all I can say is that it's trite.

It is not trite if one reeks. In fact, it is an order of magnitude beyond triste.
And that's not a typo.

When a good looking girl comes into your life, Debussy, you will find youself taking more than one shower a day, using deodorant, mouthwash, foot powder, brushing your teeth 3 times a day, and wondering why you should be practicing more than 13 minutes a week, when there's someone so exciting who's just waiting for your call.

[jpianoflorida]

There's nothing wrong with taking pride is dressing nicely and presenting a professional image.   In fact, if you want to be taken seriously as a teacher/performer, etc I think it's important to take care of yourself and dress decently. I'm not saying a suit and tie, but you  can look like you take  time to take care of yourself.   

[leucippus]

I'm currently learning Debussy's "The Girl with Flaxen Hair".

I play the piece as though I am engaged in erotic discourse of a subtle flirtatious nature with a beautiful woman with flaxen hair.  I toy with her golden locks with my fingertips as the piece begins, and by the end of the third measure I've already thrust my fingers deep into the body of her mane to embrace the nape of her neck as I plant a passionate kiss upon her lips.

I play measures four through six with a subtlety that can only be understood through the experience of our gaze as we look deep into each others eyes.  I culminate that emotion with a rolled chord that represents a passionate full-bodied embrace at the end of measure six lingering sensuously into measure seven.

Then in measures seven through nine I softly touch her face again with my fingertips, looking deep into her eyes with wanton abandon that cannot be expressed in words.  At the beginning of measure ten, I plunge my lips onto hers in a passionate kiss as my hand glides down her body to touch her naked thigh by tiptoeing over the erotic keys of ebony and ivory.  

Upon reaching her thigh I plunge on the chord that gives birth to measure twelve rolling it in a very erotic way that begins the journey back up the keyboard tiptoeing on the notes as though I am pecking her on her skin with ardent kisses.  I ascend her body kissing her lightly until I reach her lovely neck.  Then once again I plunge a passion kiss upon her lips using the doubled-handed chord of measure thirteen to express the passion of that event.

In measure fourteen I continue to kiss and embrace her body, rocking her with pulsating hugs that reveal the depth of the fiery fervor I feel for her.

Unfortunately, that where I'm currently at with the piece.  I have no idea how this affair will go but I have a feeling that I might be arrested for indecency before the piece is over.

[jpianoflorida]

OK STOP PRACTICING and get out of the house! Find your girlfriend! You are scaring me! lol

[debussy symbolism]

It is not trite if one reeks. In fact, it is an order of magnitude beyond triste.
And that's not a typo.

When a good looking girl comes into your life, Debussy, you will find youself taking more than one shower a day, using deodorant, mouthwash, foot powder, brushing your teeth 3 times a day, and wondering why you should be practicing more than 13 minutes a week, when there's someone so exciting who's just waiting for your call.

Ha ha ha. Amusing to say the least.

Dating is trite, and to me, it is "triste"(If we want to use french here). I really see no point in dating, except maybe to escape the daily pressures with an excuse, "Oh, I'm in love". That's pathetic by all means. Female dates inveigle you to their will, slowly talking you into buying them treats, and spoiling the date. Then alas, what you once thought of as your true love, her perfidious nature reveals, and one sees nothing but a profligate and wasteful b (profanity). I have not dated nor do I wish to start dating, simply because, there is no point in it that is of merit. What one should be focusing on is self development and a curiousity about the world and art, not spending one's life treating to his sexual needs with a girlfriend.

Friendship, I understand. Love, is of treacherous nature. You can split a most sensuous and "strong" love affair by having one lover call the other ugly, yet you cannot separate two friends with a thousand profanities.

I do not however indulge myself in a company of so called friends simply because no one has the same interests as I do. I therefore see it fallacy to spend time with friends going shopping, to parties, and immersing in all kinds of vapid prattle. I do however find a good conversation very engaging.

[jpianoflorida]

so my question to you is "are you happy?" or miserable?   if you are happy then so be it! but if I felt the way you do i would be a miserable person....I enjoy everything you seem to think is a waste of time.....friends, dating, movies, shopping,hockey games, anything and everything....there is a lot to do in life and i intend on doing all i can....      so you have no desire to ever have a dating relationship?   hmnn....you don't sound like a very happy person.

[debussy symbolism]

Very insightful and thoughful of you to ask.

I will reply as best as I can. Given my norms, I am happy. I can genuinly say that I am happy. For me, learning is happiness. Hanging out with friends talking about sports is not. I undestand how others may disagree, but that is a private predilection, hence no debate. Music and piano are the best things in my life, and besides that, I love to read, to write, and to otherwise learn. (Can't find this one book however, arrgh.) All in all, I will truthfully say that I am happy with what I want.

Thank you for your concern, that means alot to me.

[barnowl]

What Debussy needs is Tea and Sympathy.

But he doesn't know what it's about.

[jpianoflorida]

That was my point...if YOU are happy with things the way you see it then that is great....but don't get to a point you shut other people out because "they dont' have the same interests as you" or because you think something is a waste of time.    I'm speaking from experience.   I use not want people around, not want to date, etc...very similiar attitude--but for me it was  because i wasnt' happy with myself.   But I changed that--now I want to be friends with everyone, try all kinds of new activities, etc etc...and I am truly happy, blessed and life is great.    So i just hope you will be open to new experiences--don't shut yourself away from what's out there.     You will find you can learn so much from people who are different from you and who have different interests,.

[leucippus]

OK STOP PRACTICING and get out of the house! Find your girlfriend! You are scaring me! lol

That's the best suggestion I've heard in a while.     

[debussy symbolism]

What Debussy needs is Tea and Sympathy.

But he doesn't know what it's about.

I happen to be a tea lover. I drink tea in vast a mounts. Don't get me wrong, I am not derelict of sympathy.

[debussy symbolism]

But he doesn't know what it's about.

Hey, that hurt my feelings.

[ada]

But Ada, didn't all the women in his life, not want Beethoven for a lover? If yes, how come?

I have read he was unkempt, which may have been a euphemism for being malodorous. Einstein was that way. Very poor hygiene.

haha nothing a good scrub wouldn't have fixed.

But let's say I'm looking through the rose coloured glasses of history 

[barnowl]

I happen to be a tea lover. I drink tea in vast a mounts. Don't get me wrong, I am not derelict of sympathy.

Tea and Sympathy refers to a play, then made a movie. In the movie Deborah Kerr played the lead - a teacher. She ends up giving one of her high school students a roll in the hay.


Don't none of youse other guys know nuttin'? 

I'm off to bed. Deborah's waiting. Slurp. Slurp.

[loops]

~~~

Beethoven's Für Elise
was an attempt to get a piece
from a sexy female student
who may have been his niece

Such incendiary rumors
have become malignant tumors
in the pianistic world
of written-score consumers

Should the piece be played with purity,
with innocuous maturity?
Or be taken by demonic curses,
to the depths of vile obscurity?

There are no answers to these questions
they yield to pianist's impressions
to their emotional expressions
and passionate obsessions

~~~

(Leucippus 9/20/06)

absolutely wonderful   leucippus!!

Some days I play Tango in D and a passionate male barrista (sp?) comes to mind.
Other days it's a couple of long term lovers dancing into the dawn. Other days again
I'm having to concentrate on the 3v4- 3vs 2 rhythms, so its "play the dog-gone rhythm - hot
cup of tea" over and over which kind of kills the mood. 

Not sure about fibonnacci sequences in music.  The sequence is x[1]=1, x[2]=1, x[n+1]=x[n]+x[n-1].
So you'd need two motifs repeatedly combining (<-> summing)  in some way. Somewhere I read
about music that mirrored the pascal triangle in some precise way. The review of it indicated
that it wasn't sufficiently erotic to interest readers of this thread 

To get from the x[n] to the golden mean: the limit as n goes to infinity of x[n]/x[n+1] is the golden mean,
(1 + sqrt(5))/2. So, if you compose/listen to your motifs summing together over and over *and ratio them* somehow you reach a reflection of eternal beauty (is that better than erotica?)

[pianistimo]

loops is right.  if you get the idea of the 'golden mean' - then the fantasy has reached a point of perfection.  any more overdoing and it will sound 'soupy' or 'souped up.'  otherwise known as overdramatized. 

now, i have to admit reading leucippus thread with a sort of 'glossy' reading - which actually made the reading (how the eyes followed the thread) smoother and more flowing.  when i got to the mathematical thread of loops- i was reading a line and then 're-reading' so that i would understand the concepts.  i got stuck on X(2) = 1   i thought 'oh,no.  not this again.'  but then, it gets one out of a box.  usually people like me get stuck in boxes for some time - until someone is kind enough to let us know just to jump out of the window and forget that there is no door. 

as with all music - there was a composer behind it somewhere.  to my way of thinking...i want to know what the composer was thinking and feeling.  and, i suppose i might be shocked to find out that beethoven wasn't just pondering and contemplative most of the time.  what if he WAS rolling around a lot.  that explains the 'std' versions of the composers that went blind, had worts, and sufferred mysterioius problems at/around death.  even pure mozart.  considering how many children he and bach had - they must have been prolific in bed as well as composition.

now, i really find chopin trite after a while.  the fifteenth time someone is caressing up and down i just want to slap them.  go do something else for awhile.  i think some of these composers needed love to keep going - but sort of shyed away from it in real life.  a sort of connundrum.  take tchaikovsky for instance.  here he writes the first piano concerto that everyone thinks is the epitome of romance - and he himself is celibate.  he has a long distance not even 'romance' with a woman who is a benefactress and gives him large checks once in a while without any sort of demands (that i know of).

largely the best musicians today are the 'unfillfilled' sorts.  they fantasize more deeply.  (like rachmaninov).  probably pogorelich after being married the first time to a woman he deeply loved felt that he experienced the ultimate - and thereafter put his love into the piano.  or clara schumann for her husband.  though he had gone insane - she loved him just the same.  i think some of these composers taught about another kind of love beyond just sex.  i think it is a committment to an ideal.  thereupon we reach the golden mean in many ways.  perhaps helene grimaud, if foiled in love, will just go back to her wolves.  it is a double entendre to my way of thinking.  when the world rejects people - there's always animals.  they are faithful to the end, and (though i'm not sure about wolves) - always there.

[loops]

  i got stuck on X(2) = 1   

sorry pianistimo for using math notation.
Here is the window you asked for.
You have a sequence of numbers. The first one, the second one, these
both have the value 1. Then, to get the next in the sequence, you simply add together the two previous
ones. So, the third is 1+1 which is 2. So far, we have 1,1,2. To get the fourth, add the second and third.
So our sequence is now 1,1,2,3. To get the fifth, add the third and the fourth. The sequence is now
1,1,2,3,5.  And so on, ****for*****ever*****.
So you get
1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34, 55, 89,......
(hope my addition is correct!!)
They get big quite quickly, but the ratio of a member divided by its previous one goes to (1+sqrt(5))/2.

I can only talk about inspiration for mathematics, not having done any composing of music, only formulae, and sex is not involved at all   !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It all just seems to come out of the ether/never never/back of head/base of consciousness in response to a problem needing solving.

Maybe the loads of children Bach had is just high energy people being high energy everywhere
 

[steve_m]

a

[leucippus]

To get back on topic (sort of):

https://www.amazon.com/Bedroom-Bliss-Beethoven-Andr%e9-Previn/dp/B00007MB5D/sr=1-12/qid=1158888514/ref=sr_1_12/104-9374210-6789539?ie=UTF8&s=music

I find the reviews quite amusing.

Just because the CD is labeled "Bedroom Bliss" the reviewers have chosen to view this as "vile" and " disgusting ".

In my mind, all these people are doing is exposing their own filthy minds when it comes to sex.  The title of the CD is "Bedroom Bliss".  So what's wrong with that?  Is there something inherently wrong with lovers making love?  I don’t think so.  There's absolutely no reason on God's green earth to think than any thing vile or disgusting is going on.  Two people are making love (and even that is presumptuous actually).   For all we know they are merely trying to go to sleep with some nice background music.  Wouldn't' that be "Bedroom Bliss?"

I blame religion for instilling into people's minds that there is something inherently vile and disgusting about making love.

Shame on them!  The filth is in their own minds!  They are probably thinking in terms of their own disloyal immoral activities.

I personally see making love as the most beautiful activity two humans can ever share.  Beethoven would have been proud to have his music associated with such a wondrous event.

In fact, I might go post my own "review" on Amazon.

[leahcim]

I find the reviews quite amusing.

Just because the CD is labeled "Bedroom Bliss" the reviewers have chosen to view this as "vile" and " disgusting ".

I doubt it's "just because" - there appear to be clear warnings in the title of the page, and in the picture about the explicit content. I suspect that is what they are referring to rather than the title.

In fact, I might go post my own "review" on Amazon.

Well, buy it and listen to it first. There's nothing wrong with shagging, but there's plenty wrong with reviewing something you've never heard.

It looks like a buffoons guide to Beethoven "Moonlight, furry liza, pathetic and da da da daaaa" - if that's not vile what is?

[leucippus]

I doubt it's "just because" - there appear to be clear warnings in the title of the page, and in the picture about the explicit lyrical content. I suspect that is what they are referring to rather than the title.

Ok, you'll have to excuse me.  I'm mentally ill and I missed the part about "EXPLICIT LYRICS"

Probably because it was in all caps. 

    

[leahcim]

Ok, you'll have to excuse me.  I'm mentally ill and I missed the part about "EXPLICIT LYRICS"

Probably because it was in all caps. 

See edit. It says content on the label on the picture rather than lyrics. I think Amazon are wrong about the lyrics, because afaict it really is just a way of marketing classical music [i.e there aren't any lyrics]

[burstroman]

i scrolled down rapidly but did anyone mention Liszt's 3 "wet dreams", oops Liebestraume?

[barnowl]

Can't wait to read the last 6-7-8 posts, but I must go to bed.

Maybe tomorrow.

[keval]

lol. yer i fink fur elise is pretty erotic but i font particularly like the piece. every1 finks that its amzing but its probably one of the most boring pieces EVER! there is no depth to the piece and its well borign. neways wot do u guys fink???

[leucippus]

To be honest, my first impression of Für Elise is that it was written for a very young child and intended as amusement.

Perhaps Elise was a little girl and Beethoven wrote this piece for her on a special occasion, perhaps her birthday.

The reason I say this is because of the abrupt departures from one mood to the next as though toying with the kid in a playful manner.

That's my honest impression of the piece.  I think over time it has become associated with romance, but I don’t think that was it's original intent.  Who knows?

[barnowl]

lol. yer i fink fur elise is pretty erotic but i font particularly like the piece. every1 finks that its amzing but its probably one of the most boring pieces EVER! there is no depth to the piece and its well borign. neways wot do u guys fink???

When people start writing like above, I fink it's time I unsubscribed to this thread.

Keval, you're the most illiterate and unfunny meathead on Piano Street.