Poll for religious people

[pianowolfi]

Oh gosh, am I the only one or is all that really sort of insane? *faints*

[pianistimo]

alistair, once again you prove your ground and i step back two steps - only to think of my next punch line.  i shall use my full 'logic' now -watch out.

somehow - i think that if we were to do this in person -we'd watch a movie afterwards and not really care who thinks what.  although prometheus would spit in my popcorn.  and, i'd pull his hair when nobody was looking.  we could be a sort of family.  albeit a dysfunctional one.

[ahinton]

alistair, once again you prove your ground and i step back two steps - only to think of my next punch line.  i shall use my full 'logic' now -watch out.

It's not "my" ground, susanistimo dear - it's yours - at least in the sense that you're the American and I'm just a Scotsman. You don't need a punch line; no one's advocating fisticuffs here - not even verbal ones! Use the full force of your logic, however, by all means; I'm quite certain that we'll all watch out for that!

Q. Do you believe that the earth is flat?
A. No, not really - at least it seemed to be pretty much in tune last time I listened...

Yes, susanistimo, ma chère - I do know what a "punchline" really is, even when punching as far below the belt of witty decency as does the above...

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

you all harang about flat earth as though it is the only thing you have to hold on to.  aren't there any more recent arguments.  btw, i never promoted flat earth - ie job 26:10 or thereabouts where God inscribes a circle upon the 'waters.'  in another bible - i read - 'He has fixed the horizon on the suface of the waters.'  the horizon is curved.

about ramseytheii's arguments against evangelical christianity - that is why the early americans left britain.  they didn't want to be anglicized.  they didn't care what their churches looked like on the inside - or who was fighting to be bishop of whatever - or if the king was now changing the interpretation of the bible or not.  did you know -that even today -the british government or king/queen decides who will be archbishop and things like that.  at least, major appointments.  that's what i read.  perhaps someone will disconfirm?  but, that is why american churches don't really care who's in charge.  they had enough of it over there.  they think it a 'paper' religion.

but, seriously - every church has it's flaws.  i'm not saying that i'd want to be in a completely pentecostal state - although some people like it.  all i'm saying - is that be proud of whoever and whatever you are and do - and have a reason.  don't just blindly do it.

now, about the dollar.  let me think.  i believe the euro is overtaking the dollar and therefore God is being nixed for a worldwide currency with an emblem of the 'world state.'  perhaps roman in thought -and yet, beastly in power.

[prometheus]

Pianistimo, if you keep up making stuff on the run you can dodge every argument.

Point is, if you are wrong you will never find out if you just fantasize through every flaw and error.
It doesn't matter what you believe. You just make up a new myth every time someone else makes an argument.
We could cuntinue this for a thousand years and then you would still need to make up one more myth to counter my arguments. That is stupidity.


I think that, following your own logic you should think you should burn in hell. That says enough about the stupidity of your faith.

[pianistimo]

you do not argue my points, prometheus, because you do not understand my basis for belief in God.  if you did - you would understand.  i neither wish to be illogical or pull your hair literally -but figuratively you frustrated me just as much as i you.  you do not refute what i say - but criticize it instead.  give me some proof that carbon 14 dating is as accurate as once believed.  or that genetic testing is not 'as we speak' disproving earlier thoughts about where mankind originated.  i do not believe textbooks blindly.  i believe the bible fully.

both the bible and science are constantly being studied and refined.  the only difference is that every Word of the bible is true.  so science confirms the bible.  science is the only one with thousands of years of losses.  a study of the sun is that it would have been born (as other stars) with the size that it currently is.  it used to be thought that it was much bigger when first 'born.'

ps i'm not saying science doesn't have it's place.  it does.  but, imo, is under God.

[pianistimo]

if the universe is expanding - why is our planet getting hotter.  why isn't the sun moving farther and farther away from us.  it should be really far away by now - if it started incrementally moving away millions of years ago.  and, what about the tides.  noone has argued that ever to my satisfaction.  how can the tides not be affected if the moon has been moving incrementally away from us, too.  but, the tides are fairly constant.

could it be that God looks after all these minute orbits and processes and created them 'stable?'  with minor fluctuations - but not going out of their designated places?

[cmg]

Well, pianistimo, it's been said that "faith is the path of least resistance," but your arguments in defense of Biblical inconsistencies and contradictions show an intellect hellbent (excuse me, dear lady, "heavenbent") on defending the eminently illogical.  I rather admire you for that!

But have you read the work of Ann Pagels, the leading historian of Christianity in the US?  I believe she's at Princeton now.  A rather famous book of hers is "The Gnostic Gospels," wherein she proves to everyone's complete satisfaction that the New Testament, at least, is a totally arbitrary conglomeration of stories handpicked for the political/economic purpose of making the attainment of Christian grace as easy as saying, "I believe."  Christ, in the discarded gospels pre-dating the current New Testament by as much as 200 years, tells his pupils to turn their backs on institutions, priests and dogma, and to literally look inward (meditation) to find the Kingdom of Heaven.

So, if the New Testament is a cobbled-together hash of political expediency (a proven fact, by the way) then why should anyone accept the Old Testament as being anything else??

--Michael

 

[thalbergmad]

i do not believe textbooks blindly.  i believe the bible fully.

In your case, i feel you should exchange just 2 words giving the sentence:

I do not believe textbooks fully. I believe the Bible blindly.

[pianowolfi]

*gets conscious slowly* Where am I? Hell??? Oh gosh I'm on pianoforum! Is that real? What day do we have? Help!

[pianistimo]

dear cmg,

my husband has enough books here to qualify for a place in this discussion - as he has read them all and probably agrees on your points.  i ,however, say that 'God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.'  if he made the 10 commandments good enough for the israelites - they're good enough for christians.  there's only 10. 

and, if Christ said we only need faith like a mustard seed - then saying 'i believe' is a mustard seed.

ps even my husband and i agree to disagree on matters of 'how literally does one take the bible.'  i believe that the apostles were inspired to write the books of the nt that they did. and that the inspiration was divine.  therefore the dating of the books is irrelevant - whenever they were written.  my husband knows more about dating of bible books.  the dead sea scrolls contradict your fair princess, though, in that Christ was reading isaiah and then it was transcribed into matt, mark, luke, and john - so the words of the old testament were transferred to the new in less time than she says.  basically by the Words spoken by Jesus when He walked the earth.

[prometheus]

Give me some proof that carbon 14 dating is as accurate as once believed.

Carbon dating is an accepted dating method that gives accurate results if correctly applied.

It can only be used to test stuff a few thousands of years. So it has no relevance to the age of the earth or the age of the universe.

The fact that you can find an example where the results are highly flawed is meaningless.

or that genetic testing is not 'as we speak' disproving earlier thoughts about where mankind originated.

How can I refute a statement like this? And why do you have to? This statement is so ambigious that it can be just as true or false. Surely scientists have to reconsider their previous theories the moment they find new information.

As for the other things you say, it shows a basic lack of understanding of what science claims. If the universe is expanding then that has nothing to do with the sun or the moon or the tides.

[thalbergmad]

if the universe is expanding - why is our planet getting hotter.  why isn't the sun moving farther and farther away from us.  it should be really far away by now - if it started incrementally moving away millions of years ago.  and, what about the tides.  noone has argued that ever to my satisfaction.  how can the tides not be affected if the moon has been moving incrementally away from us, too.  but, the tides are fairly constant.

could it be that God looks after all these minute orbits and processes and created them 'stable?'  with minor fluctuations - but not going out of their designated places?

You have finally outdone yourself here for stupdity.

The Universe is expanding if looked at as a whole, However, the poor little Solar System to which Earth is a part, is not expanding in itself, nor probably the galaxy to which this solar system is part of. Indeed, it has been shown that some local galaxies are blue shifted and are moving towards us.

Therefore, the sun is not moving away from the Earth and the moon is not moving away from the Earth.

Minute processes (or whatever you call them) does not need God, as mathematics dictates their movements.

Please broaden your reading.

Thal

 

[pianistimo]

why hasn't the earth exploded by now - from this expansion (over millions of years) and the magnetic pull that obviously is not just the sun pulling us around - but getting closer instead of farther away.  as i see it - the ozone layer - being depleted - is allowing a magnetic pull of the sun towards us or rather, us towards the sun.  the light can freely pass back and forth and a sort of burning up will be expected instead of pulling away and having an ice age.

[thalbergmad]

dear cmg,

and, if Christ said we only need faith like a mustard seed - then saying 'i believe' is a mustard seed.

Regretfully, some of us have a brain like a mustard seed, which does not help in discussions like this.

Thal

[prometheus]

When it comes to the movement of galaxies and the expansion of the universe, we do not understand. To fit it in our current mathematical model we have made up both dark matter and dark energy. That way there is something that can represent the forces we see that are being applied to create the motions we see.

For all we know it may be god's invisible finger pushing them away from each other.

Also, the moon is slowly moving away from the earth. In time it will stop the tides.


Pianistimo is either stupid or very unreasonable to apply the things science says into her reality.
Her logic:
A)The earth is 6000 years old.
B) See the grand canyon
C) Only a global de flood can have caused such a thing
D) The bible talks about a global flood
E) So the bible must be true
F) The bible claims the earth is 6000 years old
G) The earth is 6000 years old.

Then when we claim there isn't a global flood we can't explain the Grand Canyon. She just ignores the fact that we know that the earth is 4.6 billion years old. Surely the grand canyon can be created without one in so much time.

[pianistimo]

dear thal,

your arguments do not make sense - because if we were in a different galaxy observing our own galaxy - we would assume the same things for the entirety of the universe.  what would make our part of the universe any different than any other?  we are not the 'center' are we?  maybe we are?  but, it doesn't appear than any of us know exactly where we are placed in space.

[thalbergmad]

why hasn't the earth exploded by now - from this expansion (over millions of years) and the magnetic pull that obviously is not just the sun pulling us around - but getting closer instead of farther away.  as i see it - the ozone layer - being depleted - is allowing a magnetic pull of the sun towards us or rather, us towards the sun.  the light can freely pass back and forth and a sort of burning up will be expected instead of pulling away and having an ice age.

What are you on??

I gave you an explanation, and you respond with utter tripe.

Try reading "A brief history of time" by Stephen Hawking. That might help you to understand how the universe works and it is rather easy to grasp.

Change books once in a while, it will do you good.

Thal

[pianowolfi]

When it comes to the movement of galaxies and the expansion of the universe, we do not understand. To fit it in our current mathematical model we have made up both dark matter and dark energy. That way there is something that can represent the forces we see that are being applied to create the motions we see.

So both dark matter and dark energy are hypotheses?

[prometheus]

why hasn't the earth exploded by now

Because that can't happen. I don't see why it must.

from this expansion (over millions of years)

Space expands, not the earth. Objects don't even more. They just sit in space that is being stretched out.

and the magnetic pull that obviously is not just the sun pulling us around

Uuh... We are in orbit around the sun. Basic physics. We aren't being pulled around. We fall towards the sun. But at the same time we already have a momentum. So we fall around the sun, not into it. Just like sattelites.

[cmg]

But belief is not, strictly speaking, knowledge, and I have this wacko idea that there is nothing that can't be proven . . . even the existence of a Higher Power.  This, of course, is not to say that I've managed such a feat myself, but the attainment of Enlightenment in Buddhism is precisely what I'm referring to.  Belief, which is only a "hope" at best, pales before the attainment of Enlightenment.

Why accept a myth (belief system), when real knowledge (enlightenment) resides within you?  Well, I'll answer that, thank you very much (!):  because attaining enlightenment is an arduous, lifetime pursuit, unlike belief which only requires, quite literally, lip service.  I believe in Santa, I believe in Christ.  Fine, gifts for all and eternity to boot!  

Uh huh.

Not.

[pianistimo]

dear prometheus,

i am explaining myself over and over.  i think that genesis 1:1 and 1:2 make adequate reason for belief that God was moving over an already created heaven and earth - made as long ago as he wanted.

my conundrum is the sun and the moon - made on the fourth day - as God was the light for the other days.  the sun and the moon are young to me.  i do not believe they are as old as once thought.  my reasons:

#1 it has been proven that stars are the size they are and always will be when born.
#2 the sun will eventually lose it's fizzle.  when you corroborate the size of the sun with the guesstimated age - it doesn't match the fusion power.

[thalbergmad]

dear thal,

your arguments do not make sense - because if we were in a different galaxy observing our own galaxy - we would assume the same things for the entirety of the universe.  what would make our part of the universe any different than any other?  we are not the 'center' are we?  maybe we are?  but, it doesn't appear than any of us know exactly where we are placed in space.

I think i can understand why it would not make any sense to you.

Again, try changing your reading material and acquire some basic knowledge.

Thal

[prometheus]

So both dark matter and dark energy are hypotheses?

Yes, for a long time there was no direct evidence. It is just that there was an unaccounted force. Or rather unaccounted source of gravity which means unaccounted matter.

But in August this year NASA claims to have observed dark matter for the first time.
https://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2006/aug/HQ_06297_CHANDRA_Dark_Matter.html

We know basically nothing about dark matter.

Dark energy is something else. It is the hypothetical form of energy that is to account for the acceleration of the expansion of the universe. So it does something totally different.

[prometheus]

#1 it has been proven that stars are the size they are and always will be when born.

Things are the way they are, of course. This proves nothing.

#2 the sun will eventually lose it's fizzle.  when you corroborate the size of the sun with the guesstimated age - it doesn't match the fusion power.

Ok, can you give me the calculation proving that the numbers don't match?

[pianowolfi]

Yes, for a long time there was no direct evidence. It is just that there was an unaccounted force. Or rather unaccounted source of gravity which means unaccounted matter.

But in August this year NASA claims to have observed dark matter for the first time.
https://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2006/aug/HQ_06297_CHANDRA_Dark_Matter.html

We know basically nothing about dark matter.

Dark energy is something else. It is the hypothetical form of energy that is to account for the acceleration of the expansion of the universe. So it does something totally different.

Thanks that's helpful.

[thalbergmad]

i am explaining myself over and over.  i think that genesis 1:1 and 1:2 make adequate reason for belief that God was moving over an already created heaven and earth - made as long ago as he wanted.

Hmm, are you sure you mean "adequate reason" and not "proof"

[ahinton]

why hasn't the earth exploded by now - from this expansion (over millions of years) and the magnetic pull that obviously is not just the sun pulling us around - but getting closer instead of farther away.  as i see it - the ozone layer - being depleted - is allowing a magnetic pull of the sun towards us or rather, us towards the sun.

I believe that I am correct in stating that the ozone layer depletion which was talked about a lot in recent years and which is reckoned to have affected the Far East and Australasia worse than most other places on earth is now thought to be receding.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

#1 it has been proven that stars are the size they are and always will be when born.
#2 the sun will eventually lose it's fizzle.  when you corroborate the size of the sun with the guesstimated age - it doesn't match the fusion power.

Your point 1 matches what i have read in the past, in as much as a certain size is required to start nuclear activity, but i fail to see how you relate the size of the sun with its age.

If i remember my astronomy lessons correctly, some stars that are many times the size of our sun, actually do not last as long due to the rate it uses its fuel.

I am sure there is an astronomy expert on this forum, but a full explanation might be too much for you to take in all at once.

Best stick to Genises eh.

Thal

Thal

[ahinton]

you all harang about flat earth as though it is the only thing you have to hold on to.

"All"? I'm certainly not doing that...

about ramseytheii's arguments against evangelical christianity - that is why the early americans left britain.  they didn't want to be anglicized.

Well, they didn't get it all wrong, then did they?! Can you blame them?!

they didn't care what their churches looked like on the inside - or who was fighting to be bishop of whatever - or if the king was now changing the interpretation of the bible or not.  did you know -that even today -the british government or king/queen decides who will be archbishop and things like that.  at least, major appointments.  that's what i read.  perhaps someone will disconfirm?  but, that is why american churches don't really care who's in charge.  they had enough of it over there.  they think it a 'paper' religion.

The reigning British Queen has the power to enter the House of Commons and dismiss the entire government of the day (quaintly referred to incessantly in each and every so-called "Queen's Speech" - of which she writes not a word, of course - at the annual reopening of parliamentray sessions as "my government"), except that - as most of you may have noticed - she's not done so in 53 years of rule. So what? So only this - the Queen doesn't decide anything, she endorses the decisions of others, even though, technically, the power is invested in her to decide a great many things. But to return to your point; why would what you say here - which is far from wrong - make the evangelicals better than the anglicans or vice versa?

but, seriously - every church has it's flaws.  i'm not saying that i'd want to be in a completely pentecostal state - although some people like it.  all i'm saying - is that be proud of whoever and whatever you are and do - and have a reason.  don't just blindly do it.

Well, I wouldn't want to live in one either. That said, I live in a country where there has not been a government in decades for which I would choose to vote and I also accept that what I do means that I am an outsider in many ways - not a problem for me, most of the time, but a fact nevertheless. Accordingly, I don't much care whether the "establishment" - insofar as there is one - is pentecostal, atheist, Catholic, socialist or what - especially since the entire concept of the "establishment" is increasingly becoming less ans less "established" anyway. Whatever it is, I'm most unlikely to be a part of it. You don't, in most cases, compose new music of a non-pop variety and expect to be a part of an "establishment", whether or not there is one and whether or not you'd want to be so in any case.

now, about the dollar.  let me think.  i believe the euro is overtaking the dollar and therefore God is being nixed for a worldwide currency with an emblem of the 'world state.'  perhaps roman in thought -and yet, beastly in power.

I'm not sure to what extent that's funny and to what extent it's utter rubbish. Currency values can and fluctuate with alarming frequency and sometimes to alarming degrees. God isn't being nixed for anything by virtue of the currently somewhat parlous state of the American dollar; what an absurd idea. God didn't invent the American dollar anyway! As to the "world state" idea in terms of currency, do please bear in mind that the EU currently comprises 25 states (shortly to become 27 and one day perhaps to become at least three times that number) of which the latest 10 entrants are not yet entitled to join the Euro (currency) and three others (Sweden, Denmark and UK) have chosen not to do so yet, even though they are entitled to. Never mind "in God we trust"; next year marks the 150th anniversary of the birth of Edward Elgar, yet the Bank of Elgar's country has chosen that year to withdraw his face from the £2- note and replace it with that of the economist Adam Smith. "In Smith we trust; all others listen to the music of Elgar"...

Best,

Alistair

[pianowolfi]

Thal

Thal

Yes, that's the problem. Now we have two Thals. And me is confused. That comes from discussing insanely.

[ahinton]

Yes, that's the problem. Now we have two Thals. And me is confused. That comes from discussing insanely.

Yes, but that's only one third of the number of pianistimi, apparently...

Best,

Alistair

[ramseytheii]

you all harang about flat earth as though it is the only thing you have to hold on to.  aren't there any more recent arguments.  btw, i never promoted flat earth - ie job 26:10 or thereabouts where God inscribes a circle upon the 'waters.'  in another bible - i read - 'He has fixed the horizon on the suface of the waters.'  the horizon is curved.

Actually pianitisimo has hit upon proof of the Catholic church's fallibility, since they insisted for so long on the flatness of the earth; it contradicts Scriptures.

Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in..

But who am I kidding?  Every church and sect contradicts their own Bible, even when they use it to claim that other people are breaking all the precious rules, 90% you don't even hear about to begin with! 

Walter Ramsey

[ahinton]

Actually pianitisimo has hit upon proof of the Catholic church's fallibility, since they insisted for so long on the flatness of the earth; it contradicts Scriptures.

Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in..

But who am I kidding?  Every church and sect contradicts their own Bible, even when they use it to claim that other people are breaking all the precious rules, 90% you don't even hear about to begin with! 

Walter Ramsey

To the best of my knowlege, there is no member called pianitisimo on this forum, so I don't think that what you claim here can be correct. That said, the rest of what you write is very hard for anyone to argue against with any degree of success, I think.

Anway, this thread is eliciting posts at such an alarming rate and so many of them are exchanges with and responses from susanistimo that I wonder if it's "time" not for yet another word association thingy but for a brief pause for respite - in which perhaps it's also time for another one or more of those "love poems" to which pianisusanistimo referred earlier...

Best,

Alistair

[pianowolfi]

Yes, but that's only one third of the number of pianistimi, apparently...

Best,

Alistair

 

[pianowolfi]

To the best of my knowlege, there is no member called pianitisimo on this forum, so I don't think that waht you claim here can be correct. That said, the rest of what you write is very hard for anyone to argue against with any degree of success, I think.

Anway, this thread is eliciting posts at such an alarming rate and so many of them are exchanges with and responses from susanistimo that I wonder if it's "time" not for yet another word association thingy but for a brief pause for respite - in which perhaps it's also time for another one or more of those "love poems" to which pianisusanistimo referred earlier...

Best,

Alistair

Whatever time it is for, how many syllables there may be added to pianisustainabistimo etc.etc. this thread (and not only this one) drives me crazy!

[thalbergmad]

Yes, that's the problem. Now we have two Thals. And me is confused. That comes from discussing insanely.

Indeed it does.

"banging your head against a brick wall" is a saying that us English use often to describe situations where you know that all the effort in the world will make not one iota of difference.

This evenings debates about expanding solar systems, exploding earths, young suns, dollar bills and dark matter have been a little taxing, but at least i have had an excuse to miss the cricket highlights.

The "holy one" appears to be offline at the moment, so i will take this opportunity to get some sleep. No doubt she is flicking throught the pages of Leviticus trying to find proof that McDonalds is only 2 years old.

I will see y'all later.

Thal

[ggc]

Promethius et al raise important points that cannot be explained by the Bible.  If one wants to be happy believing in their religion, they must have a little blind faith.  People with blind faith may turn out to be wrong, and there is a possibility that atheists may be wrong.

Pianistimo, if you agreed with this statement instead of exuding random nonsense and changing the subject all the time, I would feel so much better about being a christian right now.  However, the way you are now, I feel that people will read your posts and think we are all like you.  Please admit that you do not know the answers, because you don't.  Please stop making me feel stupid for having blind faith.

[ahinton]

Whatever time it is for, how many syllables there may be added to pianisustainabistimo etc.etc. this thread (and not only this one) drives me crazy!

I have no idea how many - still less do I care; why not make up the answer yourself? and, while arriving at your arithmetical conclsusion, just ask yourself why, if this thread is driving you crazy, you continue to contribute to it?!...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

The "holy one" appears to be offline at the moment,

Er - wait a minute - "God is everywhere", is He not? - so how can He be offline? ah wait a moment I see what (or rather who) you mean - sorry...

so i will take this opportunity to get some sleep.

Moi aussi; "so now I will try to sleep", as Browning wrote (and I once set towards the close of my string quintet)...

No doubt she is flicking throught the pages of Leviticus trying to find proof that McDonalds is only 2 years old.

Well, that's as maybe - but isn't even that more credible a waste of time than "flicking through the pages of" a McDonalds menu "trying to find proof that" Leviticus is your waiter for the evening?

Anyway - where's "ada"? Why isn't she here, telling us that the Aussies are thrashing the Poms in the Old cricket Test-ament and that they'll accordingly soon win the ashes-to-ashes-dust-to-dust...

Best,

Alistair

[pianowolfi]

I just ask yourself why, if this thread is driving you crazy, you continue to contribute to it?!...

Yes, sigh... why? Why have i decided at least 22 times to post not anymore about religious topics and always did it again? Perhaps a certain addiction to danger? I will think about it.

[jpianoflorida]

Yes, sigh... why? Why have i decided at least 22 times to post not anymore about religious topics and always did it again? Perhaps a certain addiction to danger? I will think about it.

we have something in common! I decided to not even read "anything but piano' posts anymore..but the addiction continues!

[pianistimo]

dear ggc,  why do i make you feel badly?  i thought that faith WAS sorta blind -in the sense that faith requires a certain trust in God.  it's  like falling backwards and being sure God will catch you.  if you knew for sure that He was going to - then you'd jump right back up and start doing it over and over.  you might be younger than me.  now, it's like - I ask 'God, I know you're here this morning - can you help me with 'whatever' and also I'd like to know about 'topic' and can you point me in the right direction in my bible. 

now, if i had a textbook in front of me - i'd ask the same question to a teacher.  can you point me to the general area of information.  now, prometheus, and thal, and ahinton come from different yet similar perspectives - in that they don't particularly want to be falling backwards all the time. 

for me, being dumber, and yes a woman (not that it matters so much), and not as scientific - i really do ask for help a lot.  this shouldn't come as a surprise - but maybe as a sort of encouragement.  that faith really does make you feel smart - and that there is some kind of hope in the end for dumb people.  i don't think i'm disabled or anything - it's just that i take a while to grasp concepts.  but, once grasped - i do not let them go.  i will fight for it to the death - until proven absolutely wrong. 

so...while i listen to stephen hawkings and fall asleep - i think of the psalms where David gives encouragement to all people by saying: 'Lord, Our Lord, How excellent are Thy Works ...'  at least i can be an encouragement back to Him by saying - 'wow, the universe is so huge.  How did you do that?'

[ahinton]

now, if i had a textbook in front of me - i'd ask the same question to a teacher.  can you point me to the general area of information.  now, prometheus, and thal, and ahinton come from different yet similar perspectives - in that they don't particularly want to be falling backwards all the time.

Excuse me? Je ne comprends pas! Taken literally (and I know you're very fond of taking things literally!), I agree that I would not
"particularly want to be falling backwards all the time"
for that would make composing and, for example, other activities like - er - not composing most impractical and uncomfortable...

for me, being dumber, and yes a woman (not that it matters so much), and not as scientific

Now, come on, susanistimo; you're slipping into compliment-seeking mode, it would seem...

- i really do ask for help a lot.  this shouldn't come as a surprise - but maybe as a sort of encouragement.

But many of us ask for help from time to time; it's just that you mean "God's help" here, whereas I am talking about asking for help in more general terms.

that faith really does make you feel smart - and that there is some kind of hope in the end for dumb people.

The difference (which not everyone perceives to exist) between faith and hope has already been alluded to in this thread. But again, whereas many of us resort at times to having - or at least trying to have - faith, you are talking only about faith in God,whereas I am talking about faith in more general terms. If, for example, I had little or no faith in what I am trying to do as a composer, I'd end up doing just that - little or nothing; that does not, of course, mean that one is not always plagued with doubts, etc. - but you get my drift, I hope (indeed, I dare even have faith that you get it!...)

i don't think i'm disabled or anything

Well, you're typing fingers certainly aren't, that's for sure!

- it's just that i take a while to grasp concepts.

Lots of us can take differing amounts of time to grasp different concepts; the trouble is, some of your posts suggest that you begin with a seemingly intransigent desire to refuse to grasp certain concepts if you cannot immediately perceive how they fit into Pianistimo's Pentecostalist Presbyterian Protestant demi-monde.

but, once grasped - i do not let them go.  i will fight for it to the death - until proven absolutely wrong.

No, indeed - you do exhibit a certain degree of tenacity and loyalty when it appears to suit your purposes to do so - and that's no bad quality in principle, as far as it goes and as long as it is not misplaced or misused...

so...while i listen to stephen hawkings and fall asleep

There may be a multiplicity of pianistimi (half a dozen at last count), but there is only one Stephen Hawking - there's no "s", Susan dear - but what, in any case, might it reveal to us about your absorption of Stephen Hawking's writings that you apparently succumb to slumber while supposedly attempting to ingest them? I'll hazard a guess that you don't do that while reading the Testaments...

- i think of the psalms where David gives encouragement to all people by saying: 'Lord, Our Lord, How excellent are Thy Works ...'  at least i can be an encouragement back to Him by saying - 'wow, the universe is so huge.  How did you do that?'

Yes, we all know that you can and do do this. Nothing wrong with that, if that's what you feel inclined to do - and, let's face it, we creative people really do need all the encouragement that we can get!

Best,

Alistair

[term]

if the universe is expanding - why is our planet getting hotter.  why isn't the sun moving farther and farther away from us.  it should be really far away by now - if it started incrementally moving away millions of years ago.  and, what about the tides.  noone has argued that ever to my satisfaction.  how can the tides not be affected if the moon has been moving incrementally away from us, too.  but, the tides are fairly constant.

could it be that God looks after all these minute orbits and processes and created them 'stable?'  with minor fluctuations - but not going out of their designated places?

my english isn't very good but i have to comment this one 

The Problem is, you don't dig too deep but remain on the surface. The surface would be the bible in your case. Science says, the universe is expanding. This may be true or will be corrected in maybe 100 years. Or 1000. Doesn't matter actually.
Now you're asking, why our planet is getting hotter.
Maybe because of climate change? Or, if you wish, because of irregularities in the orbit of the earth, which leads to differences in temperature (you observed that there is summer & winter? ). This can also affect global temperature (=> ice ages). There are thousands of factors that are associated with temperature on earth, the expansion of the universe is the weakest or one of the weakest. A fire in your house is still hot even if universe is expanding.
Then you're asking why the sun isn't moving away from us. Maybe it does (i don't know actually). I know the moon moves away from the earth. I also think it is very childish to ask why the tides arent getting weaker because of the constant motion of the moon away from the earth. Have you ever thought of the fact that these movements are so small that only in maybe 100 years you get measurable differences. You also have to consider that the moon has a cyclical movement, sometimes it is nearer to the earth the other day farther, but that repeats. If we would have the needed equipment and know-how (maybe we have already) then even this extremely small difference in water height would be measurable. Ask a scientist, i dont know.
But the moon does move away from the earth, that has been observed. Just because you cant see the water level fluctuating or getting lower doesn't mean that there is nothing. (That applies also to god, of course. But in this context....)
Same with the universe. Consider a big expanding balloon. (im not comparing the universe to a balloon, it's just an example). On the surface, the balloon expands more than near the center. That is because the ballon is so big, and a small atom near the center doesn't move that much. If the balloon is the universe and the atom is the earth, and the bigger atom nearby is the sun, the change of distance between these atoms is extremely small while the overall expansion in a baloon with 10^72 and more atoms may be very big. The expansion is distributet to every atom.
This is just an example, that's how its easier to understand. Whether the earth is near a center (if there is a center) or not is irrelevant, also how much atoms there are in the universe (i'm sure there are many). The principle is important.

These things are easy to understand and obivous, what i dont understand is why youre making god responsible for the tides or temperature or whatever if there are so obvious and simple reasons for this (and you absolutely don't have to be a scientist to understand this. Read some Stephen Hawking, he writes for normal average people). It's ok if you say "god made that big bang 20 billion years ago" or something like that, but you sound like if a cup of tea falls down and breaks, that must be god because gravity cant be the reason Oo

[thalbergmad]

NASA have today announced that they have proof that "dark matter" exists.

They have found some between pianistimo's ears.

Thal

[ada]

blah blah blah

You are all wrong. As I've said before, I used to blindly believe in evolution and the big bang and all that nonsense but then I saw the light and realised that the flying spaghetti monster did it all.

According to the gospel of the flying spaghetti monster, he created the world and everything in it in, like, just days. Okay, so he sanctioned a bit of incest, but what the hell, he like, moves in mysterious ways. 

All that stuff about dinosaur bones and carbon dating is a trick by the flying spaghetti monster to catch out all youse sinful unbelievers.

Like, he came and planted the bones and stuff to show us our follies.

One day the flying spaghetti monster is going to come back and all his followers are going to live forever in pasta heaven and youse unbelievers are, like, going to get down on your knees and beg for forgiveness, cos that what he gave us knees for.

Come to think of it, I reckon the flying spaghetti monster and pianistimo's god are one and the same. Do some research and you'll come to the same conclusion.

God, flying spaghetti monster. Whatever. Science is bumkum. Like, obviously.

Pastafarians of the world untie.

[pianowolfi]

blah blah blah

You are all wrong. As I've said before, I used to blindly believe in evolution and the big bang and all that nonsense but then I saw the light and realised that the flying spaghetti monster did it all.

According to the gospel of the flying spaghetti monster, he created the world and everything in it in, like, just days. Okay, so he sanctioned a bit of incest, but what the hell, he like, moves in mysterious ways. 

All that stuff about dinosaur bones and carbon dating is a trick by the flying spaghetti monster to catch out all youse sinful unbelievers.

Like, he came and planted the bones and stuff to show us our follies.

One day the flying spaghetti monster is going to come back and all his followers are going to live forever in pasta heaven and youse unbelievers are, like, going to get down on your knees and beg for forgiveness, cos that what he gave us knees for.

Come to think of it, I reckon the flying spaghetti monster and pianistimo's god are one and the same. Do some research and you'll come to the same conclusion.

God, flying spaghetti monster. Whatever. Science is bumkum. Like, obviously.

Pastafarians of the world untie.

Ah ada you made my day. You didn't post for a while about the one and only true spaghetti monster and I thaught already you had got apostate! But now I see everything is ok and you are still saved.  *goes for shopping spaghetti *
long live the pasta!

[pianistimo]

dear term,

you assume we are the center of the universe.  if the sun was as old as the Big Bang theory - it would be moving faster and farther away and the moon wouldn't be giving much light to us either.  face it- these theories are theories that are being disproven by the relative constancy of our universe which was created with BOUNDARIES. 

science is aways trying to make little chinks in the bible. and then blow them out of proportion - but what they don't realize is they cannot corroborate black matter because it is INVISIBLE.  what is it? could it be God Himself?  Does He keep the universe stable?  Does He make the constellations the same as they were 'billions and billions' of years ago.  if they were spreading out (as with other galaxies) we would have a totally new constellation system.

but we see the same things as our earliest ancestors.  in babylon they have extremely old astrological stuff that matches our own star formations in the sky - and with regularity they are for 'signs and for seasons.'

in evolution - supposedly everything is changing constantly.  if this were so over 'billions' of years - things would be terribly different in terms of what we find archeologically.  but, our sun must have allowed for the current creation - and the ICE AGE was before the SUN.  how could we even have the POLAR REGIONs frozen to the mass that they once were - and gradually thawed.  if it were BILLIONS of years - the polar regions would have caused flooding way before now.  although it appears that we will see somewhat how much water God actually used in NOah's flood.

[pianistimo]

ok  tell me about ice ages.