This is why all Asian Pianists sound the same..

[opus10no2]

Of course this is playing on the styleotype, but bear witness to how many asian schools of pianism practice-

They prize uniformity, technical equality, evenness, and general conformity/ lack of individuality.

[soliloquy]

.............................................


Aki Takahashi
Lang Lang



You will be hard-pressed to find a similarity.

[opus10no2]

yes, but you do see the point?

[cygnusdei]

They prize uniformity, technical equality, evenness, and general conformity/ lack of individuality.

If you were in a choir these are the first thing they teach you. I'm sure the principles apply to chamber music as well. In ensemble playing you must strive for a cohesive interpretation, not 'individuality'.

[Kassaa]

If you were in a choir these are the first thing they teach you. I'm sure the principles apply to chamber music as well. In ensemble playing you must strive for a cohesive interpretation, not 'individuality'.

But in a small ensemble there is still enough room for individuality, only you have to discuss it with the other people in the ensemble. If ensembles played like this I am pretty sure no one would ever bother to go to a concert hall.

[infectedmushroom]

I'm amazed by the eveness in their playing, but yeah, it was pretty boring. But on the otherhand; you can't go "your own way" in a piece, with so many people playing together. I think they were all concentrated on playing eveything in the right tempo.

[falcon1]

Wow, pretty weird to see 10 people play exactly the same piece at the same time. Put yes, it was little like seeing 10 clones playing. 

[kreso]

If you were in a choir these are the first thing they teach you. I'm sure the principles apply to chamber music as well. In ensemble playing you must strive for a cohesive interpretation, not 'individuality'.

But for me, this is such a stupid idea to play piece written for ONE piano, to play it on the 10 pianos-performance lacks individuality (become everyone feels music different-those children are playing like robots) and the playing is boring a bit...

[pianowelsh]

What an amazing display! A conductor would kill for such uniformity and sense of common purpose in an orchestra of people that youn much less a piano ensemble. Piano being the ahrdest ensemble of all! The susuki method may have faults but in developing discipline and digital technique it dosent lack much. I have to say considering the probable ages of these girls most of them are giving school prizewinning level performances.  maybe not higher but they have time to develop. The Suzuki books are desgined to take you from beginner to early advanced thoroughly and swiftly - they do! my teacher did however criticise the lack of reading skills that they tend to develop as he had lots of youngster come to him as head of a specialist music school who played with brilliant control and musicianship but who found reading a slow and difficult process.  no method is perfect.  ALL asian pianists DO NOT sound the same. Nor do all SUZUKI pianists. Talent always shines through even in the group setting but the method certainly does raise the standard of the whole group uniformally depends how the group is run!  Listen to the Koreans in the Leeds final partic Sunwook Kim and also mr Song and folks like Howard Na... Asians but who make a very personal and very beautifull sound.  Not all asians plays as badly as Lang Lang!!

[r_a_y]

what a weird performance.....


Japanese are insane, as always

and they make ppl envy coz they could do anything that you could think of, if not more

[jakev2.0]

Your topic is inflammatory at best, and racist at worst.

https://www.digital-sensation.jp/piacon/main/list_en.aspx?date=p301

Huangci plays like a very technically astute 16 year old who plays the Bach-Busoni Chaconne without feeling. Wang plays Mozart like a very technically astute 16 year old with remarkable tonal sensitivity and insight into the music. They're both Asian. They sound nothing alike. So you're wrong - Asian pianists do not sound all the same.

I agree that 10 girls playing a Chopin piece almost exactly in synch is a fairly freaky and scary DPRKish spectacle. It really serves no artistic purpose and is merely a display of discipline.  Exhibitions like that really only fuel prejudice (both against the music, the instrument, and the musicians who play it). This suggests that their teachers are not Leschetizky or Neuhaus. As someone said in the other thread, this is the natural result of piano not having being taught in Asian countries for decades.

I said before in another thread that I think that nowadays the universal emphasis in piano playing is unfortunately on technical proficiency at the expense of actual interpretative insight. That's why we have boring pianists today like Kissin, Lang Lang, Pollini, and Hamelin where before there were dudes like Rachmaninov, Horowitz, Schnabel, and Hofmann.  If you want to gain insight into Chopin preludes, would you listen to Moiseiwitsch or Pollini? Beethoven sonatas: Schnabel or Hamelin? Thank you very much, I rest my case! What we need is a revival in 19th-century performance style. This is where dudes like Berezovsky come into play. We need playing with unabashed romanticism and balls.

In short, I'm saying that castrated piano playing is a worldwide pathology, and is certainly not unique to the "Asian" school.

[cloches_de_geneve]

That is really interesting and also very informative. It would indeed be hard to have 10 european or american pianists do the same thing. They would not see any point in such an excercise. That fact that asians take the time and effort to carry out such an event demonstrates just how much they must value uniformity.

[jakev2.0]

Yeah, Asians all play the same. I wish I were Asian so I could do well in Math. Unfortunately I'm Jewish; my only consolation is control of the media and my vast stock of Jew-money.

[Mozartian]

-

[iumonito]

Are you all too young to remember the opening ceremony of the 1986 Los Angeles Olympic Games?

Not because a bunch of pianist played Rhapsody in Blue together means all American pianists sound the same.  I wish.  Put me together with Claude Frank and Richard Goode.

BTW, group piano teaching is nothing to be ashamed of, and it is quite wide-spread in America.

[steinwaymodeld]

What an amazing display! A conductor would kill for such uniformity and sense of common purpose in an orchestra of people that youn much less a piano ensemble. Piano being the ahrdest ensemble of all! The susuki method may have faults but in developing discipline and digital technique it dosent lack much. I have to say considering the probable ages of these girls most of them are giving school prizewinning level performances.  maybe not higher but they have time to develop. The Suzuki books are desgined to take you from beginner to early advanced thoroughly and swiftly - they do! my teacher did however criticise the lack of reading skills that they tend to develop as he had lots of youngster come to him as head of a specialist music school who played with brilliant control and musicianship but who found reading a slow and difficult process.  no method is perfect.  ALL asian pianists DO NOT sound the same. Nor do all SUZUKI pianists. Talent always shines through even in the group setting but the method certainly does raise the standard of the whole group uniformally depends how the group is run!  Listen to the Koreans in the Leeds final partic Sunwook Kim and also mr Song and folks like Howard Na... Asians but who make a very personal and very beautifull sound.  Not all asians plays as badly as Lang Lang!!

Enough with the foreword, so how much are our audience gonna get for this AMAZING DEAL OF THE 10-days SUZUKI METHOD FOR DUMMIES??

500 dollars? NO! 200 dollars? NO! 100 dollars? NOT EVEN.


IT'S ONLY GONNA COST YOU YOUR ABILITY TO THINK FOR YOURSELF AND JOY TO ENJOY MUSIC!!!!

YAY~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ (BG MUSIC: "Juice for you" from the movie Requiem for a dream)

[soliloquy]

Yeah, Asians all play the same. I wish I were Asian so I could do well in Math. Unfortunately I'm Jewish; my only consolation is control of the media and my vast stock of Jew-money.

Hey that's not so bad.  I'm gay and Italian, so I have a huge dick and am a great pianist.  I also like to kill people and put them in the trunk of my pink Ferrari.


Since you're Jewish, you're a CPA- I need help with a W-4.  Since I'm Italian, I only have illegal sources of income though.

[jakev2.0]

Wow, a pink ferrari...you're quite the lucky gay Italian man. 

[_____]

What we need is a revival in 19th-century performance style. This is where dudes like Berezovsky come into play. We need playing with unabashed romanticism and balls.

What we need is to experiment with newer, more original options - not to try and revive styles that have already come and gone.

[counterpoint]

The video looks so sad to me. They should have played Chopin's funeral march. It would have been very impressive and very credible   

[bflatminor24]

I don't think all asians play the same at all. If you're going to stereotype (which is completely fine), at least try to be accurate. If anything, their method of teaching emphasizes technical exercises which produce conformist technique. The playing in those videos was boring and perfunctory but it was designed to entertain an audience, not create beautiful music. I have, however, noticed a trend in a lot of asian students who play dispassionately and perfunctorily but I'm not sure why that's the case. Maybe it's because they see piano pieces simply as exercises because of the training...who knows.

~Max~

[bflatminor24]

Hey that's not so bad.  I'm gay and Italian, so I have a huge dick and am a great pianist.  I also like to kill people and put them in the trunk of my pink Ferrari.


Since you're Jewish, you're a CPA- I need help with a W-4.  Since I'm Italian, I only have illegal sources of income though.

Hahahaha. Hey, since when does being gay or Italian mean you're well hung? Wouldn't that be North African or something?

I guess being Jewish means I'm wealthy, smart and good in the sack and being Greek and German means I'm philosophical and analytical. Unfortunately, being white means I'm racist and arrogant and being raised in America means I'm shallow and ignorant. Cool!

~Max~

[mephisto]

Your topic is inflammatory at best, and racist at worst.

 If you want to gain insight into Chopin preludes, would you listen to Moiseiwitsch or Pollini?

Probably Pollini(1960 recording).

[Derek]

holy crap, human midi players! there's something.....disturbing. about that video. are they human? ...


HAHAHA AT 3:54 I HEAR A MISTAKE! THEY AREN'T PERFECT !!!!

[mephisto]

Why couldn't they instead make a nice 10 piano arrangement, where they all played different parts?

[Kassaa]

Why couldn't they instead make a nice 10 piano arrangement, where they all played different parts?

Lol, are you saying now that some Asian people should be... creative?

[franzliszt2]

I find it very interesting that in conservatoires today they are full of asians, yet there are hardly any asians that are TOP concert pianists. I mean in relation to the amount of them coming out of conservatoires, I would imagine the music world being full of them.

[airasia]

this is pretty much the equivalent of someone saying "look this is why black people can only dunk in basketball" and then show a video of a DUNK CONTEST of all black people.  Show a basketball game and see if they can do other things too.  In this case, show a piano competition and see if they sound the same; not a show where the POINT is to sound the same.  And I dare someone to say Lang Lang sounds like Yundi Li.  Another thing I've noticed, it's often the same people that hate Lang Lang for being too different that say asian pianists sound the same.  Hmmm, maybe it's just that you can't stand seeing a person of a different race successful at something you wish you could be?  It's only the disgruntled, talentless, and of course racist white pianists (or insert any occupation here) that come up with these stereotypes for minorities to bring them down.

[houseofblackleaves]

Ha! I've seen these videos around.

It's an interesting idea, but how everyone is taking it and judging it is terribly racist.  There are more bad asian pianists because there are more asian pianists (period.)  This is coming from a walking asian stereotype.

NO MORLE CUKIES FOUUR YUU. 

[shoenberg3]

I am fine with streotyping. They, generally speaking, may convey a certain trend accurately. But I have problem with saying that Asians are inferior pianists on average.

It is true that Asians tend to follow a more strict interpretation. This is rooted in Asian culture, especially in Japan where conformity is encouraged and individualism is often nailed down. However, I find that such restrained interpretation is actually a general trend in pianism, not limited to Asians. Not only that, a more "boring" performance usually ends up being the better one, as it is more faithful to the original intention. For one, during a competition (this is example of convenient, but harmless steroetyping, see post below), I tend to fear Asian competitors more so than those in other races. Basically, unless you are the next Gould, your most neutral performance is often your best.

[shoenberg3]

There also has been much dismissal of stereotypes by exaggerating them to absurdity -- Borat-style. However, I feel that stereotypes are often backed by truth. It is undeniable that Black people tend to be better endowed, the Jewish people tend to be richer, and Asian pianists more "boring." No one can deny such trends and those who do are too obsessed with being "politically correct."

That said, stereotypes often lead to problems and racism. If you start judging an individual based on the stereotype, that's were the problem starts. By definition, steroetypes can only be made to a large sample size.

Then, what purpose do steroetypes serve? Not much, really. But it sometimes can be convenient, or deadly and bigoted, depending on how you use it.

[emmdoubleew]

Of course this is playing on the styleotype, but bear witness to how many asian schools of pianism practice-

They prize uniformity, technical equality, evenness, and general conformity/ lack of individuality.

Those are the most disturbing piano videos I've ever seen.

But posting a couple videos is not good indicator of the mentality of an entire culture.  Generalizations aren't always a bad thing, but hasty generalizations are almost always wrong.

[jakev2.0]

There also has been much dismissal of stereotypes by exaggerating them to absurdity -- Borat-style. However, I feel that stereotypes are often backed by truth. It is undeniable that Black people tend to be better endowed, the Jewish people tend to be richer, and Asian pianists more "boring." No one can deny such trends and those who do are too obsessed with being "politically correct."

That said, stereotypes often lead to problems and racism. If you start judging an individual based on the stereotype, that's were the problem starts. By definition, steroetypes can only be made to a large sample size.

Then, what purpose do steroetypes serve? Not much, really. But it sometimes can be convenient, or deadly and bigoted, depending on how you use it.

Well, that stereotypes are true "some" or even "most" of the time is why they are so tragic. If even one person gets disenfranchised by a stereotype, then I think it's downright wrong.  Why not judge people on an individual basis? Just because the n'th Asian/Black/Jew does something a certain way does not mean the n+1th Asian/Black/Jew will do it the same way. I'm not trying to be politically correct by defusing stereotypes - I'm trying to be fair.

...and on the flipside, I think affirmative action is a pile of crap.

[shoenberg3]

It would seem that I should I argue with you, but I agree with everything you just said, except the fact that I do not try to defuse stereotypes. Because stereotypes are often proved to be true, we cannot deny them. But I also will NEVER be prejudiced against an individual based on his race. Only if he shows evidence that he falls under a stereotype, I may start to place him under the stereotype, unfortunately but reasonably. 

And yes, affirmative action is pile of crap. If anything, it should be based on income/asset.

[sunshine808]

What a stereotype.
The statement "all Asian pianists sound the same"
That's ridiculous. Have you heard all Asian pianists play?

I know I've heard a majority of people other than Asians that "sound the same and have no individuality."

[nicco]

I know I've heard a majority of people other than Asians that "sound the same and have no individuality."

But they never got 10 people together and played the same piece the exact same way at the same time in concert.

[sunshine808]

oh, never? how do you know? There are a lot of schools and people out there.

[donjuan]

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[letters]

they are technically brilliant.... but it leaves no room for personality and expression to come through in their playing, especially with a romantic style piece like this. They should play Bach!!! 48, with 48 pianists in unison.... crazy.
churning them out arent they?

[shoenberg3]

one of my favorite hungarian rhapsodies butchered by a swarm of blackhaired clones.  It seems pointless to me, and does a huge disservice to Liszt (and music in general).

This is almost offensive and ignorant to me. At the beginning stages of piano studies, I would be always asking the students to play in more orthodox/technical manner. Without proper guidelines established in the beginning, you will never become a good pianist. If you were given freedom to "be yourself" during first 1-3 years, you will end up with pianists who have cheap, disorganized interpretations.

Of course, this video by itself does not serve any musical purpose. But it does show pianism as it is and showcases technical discipline that is certainly impressive. It is a good start for many of these young pianists to build upon. Since they now have solid technical and stylistic restraint (unlike many other pianists with similar years of experience) they can more effectively start making music. Do you really expect them to keep participating in these demontrations when they are adults?

On the other hand, "Butchered by swarm of blackhaired clone" is certainly tinged with unnecessary amount of bitterness and, I daresay, even a bit of bigotry.

[mephisto]

I am sure a lot of people have different oppinions on that subject.

[donjuan]

post deleted

[r_a_y]

mimic first, then develop own style, all arts are alike

trying to do everything at the same time from day 1,
yes...a complete development of your style, the layman-style

juz common sense

[Kassaa]

Of course this is playing on the styleotype

.

[shoenberg3]

yes.  bigotry against my own ethnicity.   ...*cough* but youre right; that was a little unnecessary.
see this is why most asian pianists suck so much.  They think it's enough to learn the technical stuff first and then work on musicianship.  My music teacher tells me all the time about older students he gets from Korea who have spent all their time learning to type, and when he tries to talk about appropriate rubato for the period, phrasing, or what the music actually means, they don't and can't understand. Ever. Everything must be done at the same time.

Why? Childhood influences adulthood, shoenberg3.  If you raise them to be clones, theyll be clones, and theres no other way about it.

What do I expect of them when they are adults?  They will be doctors, business people, or even lousy piano teachers who make their students play to a metronome throughout the whole piece (Josef Hofmann and Glenn Gould discuss how bad this is, btw).

You certainly can be bigoted against your race. You could be Asian but have a completely White mentality due to your upbringings.

Anyway,given you had 10 people each in group A and group B, group A receives 2 years of training from teachers who focus on technique and discipline, while group B receives 2 years of training from teachers who focus on musicality and artistry. I can GUARANTEE you that group A will be the better pool of pianists in two years. You say most Asian pianists "suck so much." I strongly disagree. On average, Asian pianists tend to be superior to those in other races (a stereotype, yes, but an accurate one); no offense, but white pianists who are average or below average tend to be unbearably messy and uncontrolled in both technique and interpretation. Perhaps, there may not be as many exceptional Asian pianists as there are others (which I doubt personally), but on average, Asian pianists have other races beat.   

edit: I was curious as to how you would play so I listened some of your Liszt recordings. They are not too bad, but for someone who despises "clone" playing so much, you sure play pretty safe.

[debussy symbolism]

Greetings.

I will have to agree with "Shoenberg3" because no matter what, there can be no musicality without a good ground technique. There is a big difference between perfecting the notes, and perfecting the music. Yes, I could play a Schubert moment musicale(4) with just notes, but I have the means to play it with music as well because whilst practicing it, I also spent time with phrasing, voicing, rubato, etc. My point is that whilst practicing pure technique, it is important to not forget about the music.

[donjuan]

post deleted

[jakev2.0]

This is so ridiculous. Let's end this crap right now.

1. Great pianists need great talent. Wanting to be a great pianist and working 12 hours a day will not make you a great pianist. Some pianists are just more gifted than others.

2. a Great pianists need great techniques. No kidding.  Moiseiwitsch, Richter...etc all had complete mastery over the instrument.

2. b. Great pianists need great discipline, great instruction - or both. 

What's holding back Asian any pianists from achieving the "greatness" of the great 20th century masters? Nothing - except time, culture, and tradition. As I've said, I think that world culture is less piano oriented than it was a century ago, and as a result, much valuable tradition has been lost.  Josef Hofmann redux is probably trading stocks in New York right now. Rachmaninov reincarnate? Operating on your heart.

What's the deal with Asian pianists? As has been said, piano playing is a relatively new phenomenon in Asian countries and it's natural that the teaching practices will mature over time.

...and it should be noted that schoenberg3 is a really good pianist. Let's say for the sake of argument that he is as talented as Moiseiwitsch.  Moiseiwitsh did not study for SATs, APs, IBs, or advanced mathematics for the prospective medical practices dweeb. . Benno knew from really early on that his life's calling was the concert performer. It's all about opportunity cost. I suspect schoenberg3 is in the same situation as many other talented young pianists today.

We just don't live in the 19th century anymore.

...Though I'll admit I can tolerate saps like Kissin if it means not being crippled by polio at age 4. 

[shoenberg3]

This is so ridiculous. Let's end this crap right now.

1. Great pianists need great talent. Wanting to be a great pianist and working 12 hours a day will not make you a great pianist. Some pianists are just more gifted than others.

2. a Great pianists need great techniques. No kidding.  Moiseiwitsch, Richter...etc all had complete mastery over the instrument.

2. b. Great pianists need great discipline, great instruction - or both. 

What's holding back Asian any pianists from achieving the "greatness" of the great 20th century masters? Nothing - except time, culture, and tradition. As I've said, I think that world culture is less piano oriented than it was a century ago, and as a result, much valuable tradition has been lost.  Josef Hofmann redux is probably trading stocks in New York right now. Rachmaninov reincarnate? Operating on your heart.

What's the deal with Asian pianists? As has been said, piano playing is a relatively new phenomenon in Asian countries and it's natural that the teaching practices will mature over time.

...and it should be noted that schoenberg3 is a really good pianist. Let's say for the sake of argument that he is as talented as Moiseiwitsch.  Moiseiwitsh did not study for SATs, APs, IBs, or advanced mathematics for the prospective medical practices dweeb. . Benno knew from really early on that his life's calling was the concert performer. It's all about opportunity cost. I suspect schoenberg3 is in the same situation as many other talented young pianists today.

We just don't live in the 19th century anymore.

...Though I'll admit I can tolerate saps like Kissin if it means not being crippled by polio at age 4. 

You really overrate me! Thank you

[cygnusdei]

In my opinion general statements regarding race should be taken with a grain of salt - they are usually an unconscious manifestation of one's insecurity. Therefore the conclusion of such statements are not useful, except as ego boost. If you are confident in your own ability, your inclination would be to help other people, not put them down. Just my 2 cents.