Developing the 4th and 5th fingers

[fnork]

Lately, I've devoted some of my practicing to developing and strengthening the weaker fingers, and I'm just curious about if anyone else spends time with this and if you have some useful excercises that you'd like to share. I have a few:

One excercise, I think it was Mark Wescott who recommended it (in the book "Pianists at play"), is to play the chromatic scale, up and down for two octaves, using either the 1rst, 4th and 5th fingers, or 1rst, 3rd and 4th fingers. Do this at different speeds with different articulations - it will tire you at first but after a while it builds up a lot of endurance for those fingers, and at the same time you'll get better at using the thumb under technique frequently.
I've found a few Brahms excercises very useful too - there's one where you are constantly trilling with 4-5 in triplets while playing quarter-notes with 3-2-1, up and down the keyboard.
Chopins op 10 no 2 is great, and becomes easier to play if you've played the excercices I recommended for a while - doing Godowskys left-hand arrangement is also very good.

[bench warmer]

Not sure if you already need 4/5 developed to play it, but Liszt's Paganini Etude #3 (La Campanella) will certainly help one gain control with the RH 4/5.

Liszt also wrote Technical Exercises (not the T. Etudes) which will address specific targets for developement.

[elevateme_returns]

tankard exercises

[virtuosic1]

Poof. Bye bye!

[fnork]

tankard exercises

never heard of them, can you explain what they are about?

[virtuosic1]

Poof. Advice retracted courteosy of Jake

[mephisto]

https://h1.ripway.com/Virtuosic1/R1_0017.MP3

 

I think everybody is able to press the speed up button on an electric piano.......

[virtuosic1]

Poof. More info gone, by request from Jake and cronies.

[virtuosic1]

Poof

[thalbergmad]

Before going on about speed up buttons, quite possibly, you should contact Michael Haberman, the great Sorabji performer and noted scholar (he has a web site with email contact) and ask his opinion on whether or not his old acquaintance, Dan, from Nassau and Hofstra University needs a speed up device to traverse the piano up and down in 8 seconds and change. Tell him it's the Lennie Tristano disciple he met in 1979/1980, the fellow that played all of Lennie's music in every key, that used the unheated practice rooms in the old barracks and performed the Left hand Chaconne and La Campanella in concert there on the same program that he played Sorabji on. The jazz pianist that he had mentioned as his "being in total awe of technically". I'm sure he'll remember me. This way, before you go on about arguing how this is sped up, you'll have the golden opportunity to save yourself from the embarrassment of compounding further erroneous conclusions with more false accusations and snap decisions.   

You are modest, i'll give you that.

Thal

[ronde_des_sylphes]

There are a couple of tricky passages in Liszt's La Somnambula transcription (where the right hand trills with 45 and the thematic material is in the rest of the hand) which might be of interest.

[cloches_de_geneve]

I've found a few Brahms excercises very useful too - there's one where you are constantly trilling with 4-5 in triplets while playing quarter-notes with 3-2-1, up and down the keyboard.
Chopins op 10 no 2 is great, and becomes easier to play if you've played the excercices I recommended for a while - doing Godowskys left-hand arrangement is also very good.

Is the Brahms excercise you are referring to from the 51 excercises? If so, do you happen to remember the number?

With respect to Chopin, personally I found 25/6 to be more useful for progressing on independence of the fingers (including 4,5). After playing 10/2 for a couple of months, I needed to see a doctor. Part of the cure consisted in suspending my work on 10/2 and after a few weeks my pain disappeared and never returned. 25/6 never caused me any pain.

[cmg]

I found 10/2 to be pretty irritating.  Musically, that is.

10/1 is a great strength builder for the entire hand.  25/12, too.  But 10/1 really provides a workout for 3-4-5.  Watch out for stretch marks, though.  Unsightly.   

[klick]

Or just do Hanon? Most of the excersizes strengthen the 4th finger, and Hanon has strongly improved my 3-4 trill, and hopefully my 4-5 when I finish the book.

From what I have found in my pieces is that sure they work my 4-5 fingers, but the problem is that   the section that requires the 4-5 playing, usually slows down my practice on the piece by a large factor. Hanon on the other hand is there to be taken slow and worked up, and will strengthen all the fingers.

Klick

[clavicembalisticum]

Or just do Hanon?

STOP. Everything and anything but that.

[houseofblackleaves]

Well, just for the sake of STUDY, I would reccomend this:

My suggestions:

First: Chopin op.10 no.2 - for first developing the independence of the weak fingers.

THEN: op.25 no.6 - The reason that people have trouble with thirds (in my opinion) isn't that they lack the coordination, but lack the raw "hand power."  First of all, you need to be able to do trills with combinations between the third, fourth, and fifth fingers as fast as you can with your first and second.  Why bother coordinating the fingers if you can't play equally with your weaker fingers?  So... you study this for developing your hand coordination.

and then/or

Lizst: Feux Follets - In my opinion, this peice is like a combination of the technecal difficulties of the above two, and more.  People may be critical of it, but it is still one of the best etudes ever.

Like I said, I suggest to study these, not learn the whole peices and then work it up to performance level.  But hey, that could be great, too.

[virtuosic1]

Pooferooni

[virtuosic1]

Poof  FU

[elevateme_returns]

never heard of them, can you explain what they are about?

technical exercises by somebody harrison & geoffrey tankard

[virtuosic1]

POOF!!!!!

[cloches_de_geneve]

Depressing keys doesn't require much in the way of "hand power". Closing a Captains of Crush #3 or #4 hand-gripper does. The production and use of finger power at the keyboard, which can only be generated by increasing the tension of the soft tissue that activate the fingers, is counterproductive to velocity and finger independence. Extreme velocity and dexterity require extreme relaxation.

I agree with you, but at the same time your comment raises an important question: What are we talking about we talk about "finger strength"? Maybe this is a misconception and what is usually meant by finger strength is finger mobility+dexterity+independence.

Pollini played the Chopin Etudes already at 14 years of age effortlessly -- so, "strength" couldn't have been the explanation (same thing for Kissin, Horowitz and other teen-virtuosos whose forearms look like spaghetti).

[zheer]

Pollini played the Chopin Etudes already at 14 years of age effortlessly --

   Flipping heck.

[virtuosic1]

Poof again

[zheer]

  Is that why your user name is virtuosic1.

[virtuosic1]

You guessed it; POOF!

[nicco]

Tristano started me on the Chopin Etudes in my early teens as well. We would sometimes deconstruct and isolate motifs based on the stretches as the impetus, a cell for improvisation. Within a year, I was playing them in every key, fluently and at least up to concert level tempos.

Ok, lets hear winterwind in d sharp minor.

[virtuosic1]

Poof

[nicco]

Forward will be fine.

[virtuosic1]

Poof

[nicco]

  Nicco, you sure you wouldn't rather hear Summer Wind:

https://www.amazon.com/Very-Best-Frank-Sinatra/dp/samples/B000002NFI/ref=dp_tracks_all_1/002-9248904-9085649?ie=UTF8&qid=1174818223&sr=8-2#disc_1

Disc 2 #14

It's been such a miserable NY winter the past 2 months that I figured I'd ask before I unleash a wintery blast.   

No, the winterwind will be fine. Cant wait to hear it.

[virtuosic1]

Poof

[daniel patschan]

Dear virtuosic1 !

Impressing sound samples that you posted ! Do you have any tips on how to optimize Chopin 10-1 ?
Let´s say one could play it with 120, how to learn it faster ?

Thanks in advance

D.

[virtuosic1]

Poof. Gone in 60 seconds!

[daniel patschan]

Daniel, First off, I would need some technical data. Are your hands small, medium, or large? Can you easily span all minor tenths? Ninths? Octaves? Fingers slender or thick? When you play rapid arpeggiations (now this may take thinking about some aspects of your playing that you haven't considered), do your fingers reach and stretch to the notes, carrying your hand; or does your hand carry your fingers to the targets? Have you been playing this Etude with elbow rotation, hence fanning out the 4th and 5th fingers without much vertical finger motion aiding the depression of the keys? Have you tried altered fingering that requires more active lateral hand motion?

Thank you very much !

Mmh, let´s see: my hands are big enough to span a minor tenth, my fingers are relatively thick so sometimes it´s difficult to get between the black keys. I guess my fingers are carrying my hand not vice versa. Elbow rotation ? Hard to tell. An essential problem that i have seems the idea that it´s an extension study (is it ?). Cortot suggested it is - other people state it´s a contraction etude !? Whatever - i feel too much tension. Should i practise more extension exercises then, like the ones by Philipp or is the study of broken conventional chords (e.g. C-E-G-C) of greater advantage ? Is the playing of legato double sixth scales helpful ? I am simply not orientated since i don´t have money for a teacher at the moment.

[virtuosic1]

Poofery

[fnork]

Speaking of the Chopin etude, I made a recording of it here:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,23953.0.html

[daniel patschan]

Dan, The key word you mentioned is tension, and without seeing you actually play through a few bars of it to precisely isolate potential velocity detriments, I'm going to assume that the stretch between the 3rd, 4th, and 5th fingers, after playing the first two small intervals with the thumb and index finger are what is the cause of tension. That is, stretching for octaves and tenths with the 4-5 fingers. This is usually caused when your hand is not active enough in carrying your fingers to the keys and you're not only imparting the vertical motion in trying to "finger" with the 4-5 fingers after the stretch (which is ordinarily never a problem when playing arpeggios whose cells are limited to the octave), but lateral finger motion as well, the 4 and 5 fingers moving in 2 planes, 2 ranges of motion, which will certainly slow you down and build tension in the interossei muscles of the hand.

Your hands are adequately large enough to play this Etude with hand rotation alone. I don't know if you're familiar with using hand rotation, the hand bringing the fingers to the keys, aided by slight finger vertical motion at the strike of each note to assist in phrasing. Hand rotation will eliminate reaching, or stretching, using the interossei muscles to move the 4-5 fingers laterally.

Try this simple motion. Imagine a large knob, like on an old-fashioned radio, the knob the diameter of a grapefruit. This knob is at about chin level. Reach out with a loose hand just letting your fingers make light contact with the imaginary knob and turn it. Left to right, right to left. Back and forth. Let you elbow remain motionless in the same space throughout this motion example. You should be turning this imaginary knob simply by rotating your hand at the wrist.

Try it slow. Then faster, the main goal to remain relaxed. Try it sitting at the keyboard with the hand held high enough off the keys not to make contact. Your fingers should be loose and outstretched, in playing position, but completely relaxed.

Let's try this on an arpeggio that fits the shape of the hand perfectly. Cdim7th.

C Eb Gb Bbb (A) with the 1-2-3-5 fingering for now. Roll the arpeggio back and forth 1-2-3-5-3-2-1-2-3-5-3-2-1, etc., etc. with your fingers lightly contacting the keys, your hand rotating your fingers through (depressing) the keys. Once you become familiar with the proper symbiosis between hand rotation and fingers, in this case the hand carrying the fingers to the keys, incorporating the hand properly, you'll be able to play this static arpeggio much faster in this way then using fingers alone.

Once you feel comfortable with this, let's expand the arpeggio and turn a slightly "larger knob", closer in size to the configuration of the etude.

C Eb Gb Bbb (A) Dbb (C) with the 1-2-3-4-5 fingering. Follow the same steps laid out above. The fingers slightly more apart, but again, without tension because you are not reaching for the top two keys of each cell, your hand taking that role.

I'll follow up with more once you've gotten these suggestions in hand. This will lead to a prep. exercise that should add 20 to 30 points to the tempo you're playing it at now in a short amount of time, although quarter = 120 is certainly nothing to be ashamed of at all.

Wow, what an answer ! Thank you so much ! I sit down and try immediately ! 

[virtuosic1]

Poof

[dnephi]

And we all know what a good role model she is...


(P.S. Listening to him is dangerous ground...)

[virtuosic1]

Poof Poof

[gyzzzmo]

Chopin etude no2 opus 10. works fine for me.

[virtuosic1]

Poof

[dnephi]

Just run away guys.  He'll stop.

[daniel patschan]

How do you know that ? Did you met him ?

[virtuosic1]

How do you know that ? Did you met him ?

Trust me, DNephi has never met me. He jsut likes to stick his two cents in when he has nothing to offer, like any child.

[virtuosic1]

Just run away guys.  He'll stop.

I asked you once why you would say gibberish like this? Can you verbalize the reason behind statements like this? Can you detail the flaws in the advice I've given him? Do you have suggestions for him that are contra-indicatory to my suggestions? Or do you lack the necessities to actually expand on your mindless meaderings based on nothing, and don't mind embarrassing yourself?

[dnephi]

Trust me, DNephi has never met me. He jsut likes to stick his two cents in when he has nothing to offer, like any child.

In this nightmarish space resembling our society, I have encountered him, alas.

Our little exchanges here and here seem to sum up why I feel he is much like our Hatto friend.

[virtuosic1]

In this nightmarish space resembling our society, I have encountered him, alas.

Our little exchanges here and here seem to sum up why I feel he is much like our Hatto friend.

Yeah. And what did you find to be "nightmarish" about this? The fact that your extremely limited knowledge didn't allow you to get you very far in trying to "one-up" me?

I'm not like anybody else, son. Everything I post about playing piano can be taken as gospel. I'm the real McCoy, and you know it, and therin lies the problem of your frustrated consternation and inabilty to elaborate on your negative comments directed towards me.

[danny elfboy]

Lately, I've devoted some of my practicing to developing and strengthening the weaker fingers, and I'm just curious about if anyone else spends time with this and if you have some useful excercises that you'd like to share. I have a few

Just because the 4th and 5th finger may appear as "weak" it doesn't mean the solution is making them "strong" for they can't really become strong. And the three last phalanges of the 4th and 5th fingers there are no muscles while the interosseus doesn't really help in overcoming the natural lack of dependence and control of the 4th and 5th. Gaining real independence in these fingers is just an illusion as are exercises whose aim is independence

Nor will help you the "strength" of the flexors and extensors muscles since as shown by resonances piano playing is not a stimulus strong enough to cause hypertrophy of these muscles.

What is left is the conclusion that speed, control and accuracy are all extra-physiological aspects of piano playing. The proof of the pudding is that if you take a pianist who lacks control of the 4th and 5th finger, who lack speed and who lacks accuracy and observe his physiology and then observe him again after 6 months when he has gained lot of control of the "weak" fingers, accuracy and speed ... no kind of physiological difference will ever be observed. Unlike a sport athlete which will show physiological differences from a stage to another

As a matter of fact the fingers are already as fast as they can (the motion being very limited and the muscles already controlling it efficiently)
The problem with speed at the piano is not gaining speed but "maintaning" speed
What we train is neither muscular strength or muscular power (nor efficient oxidation of fuel like a runner does) We train the best way not to sabotage ourselves

When piano students or even teachers talk about finger weakness, speed, tension, control or whatever they are at a loss at finding rational ways to explain te "sources"
Anatomically and physiologically the sources of such "aspects" are very specific and very few
On explanations given by students and teachers it sounds as if there were some kind of "esoteric" souces. This is especially true of "fatigue" which is a specific physiological mechanism but which is always explained as if it was metaphysical

By not sabotaging ourselves I mean that we have to train our neurological system not to use contrasting movements or opposite set of muscles when performing a repeated series of movements. All the exercises in the world will never train physically our hands what they do is training your neurological pathways. Hitting the right note with the best precision and accuracy, playing a fast scale pattern without accumulating tension, moving the 5th finger with precision ... none of these aspect can really be linked to a physical mechanism at work, to a physical/physiological transformation or to a physical training.

Speed is the delay between contraction and release (lont-term contracted muscles hugely limit speed) and besides any muscle contraction after a key has been depressed is just an incredible wast of energy. Of course in a slow piece you have all the time to play a chord, released, contract as you play the next chord, release, contract as you play a scale, release
How do you do this on a 1/4 = 140 piece? That's the point the release after a contraction must be very very rapid (one fraction of millisecond) and so must be the next contraction
This is what speed is all about

Control over the 4th and 5th finger (which give the illusion of more strength too) works by the same principle. Fast release of contraction aimed to the other fingers and contraction and weight transmitted to the individual fingers. You know that you're gaining such control when you can keep all the fingers in the keyboard and with the least amount possible of "finger-lifting" (the true lifting should come from the forearms) you can just depress 4th and 5th fingers without depressing the other fingers too. Try to do this after you have accumulate contractile tension for a while and you'll see it's impossible without first consciously releasing all that has been accumulated

This is the real key to 4th and 5th finger control not "working-out"

[thierry13]

Just because the 4th and 5th finger may appear as "weak" it doesn't mean the solution is making them "strong" for they can't really become strong. And the three last phalanges of the 4th and 5th fingers there are no muscles while the interosseus doesn't really help in overcoming the natural lack of dependence and control of the 4th and 5th. Gaining real independence in these fingers is just an illusion as are exercises whose aim is independence

Nor will help you the "strength" of the flexors and extensors muscles since as shown by resonances piano playing is not a stimulus strong enough to cause hypertrophy of these muscles.

What is left is the conclusion that speed, control and accuracy are all extra-physiological aspects of piano playing. The proof of the pudding is that if you take a pianist who lacks control of the 4th and 5th finger, who lack speed and who lacks accuracy and observe his physiology and then observe him again after 6 months when he has gained lot of control of the "weak" fingers, accuracy and speed ... no kind of physiological difference will ever be observed. Unlike a sport athlete which will show physiological differences from a stage to another

As a matter of fact the fingers are already as fast as they can (the motion being very limited and the muscles already controlling it efficiently)
The problem with speed at the piano is not gaining speed but "maintaning" speed
What we train is neither muscular strength or muscular power (nor efficient oxidation of fuel like a runner does) We train the best way not to sabotage ourselves

When piano students or even teachers talk about finger weakness, speed, tension, control or whatever they are at a loss at finding rational ways to explain te "sources"
Anatomically and physiologically the sources of such "aspects" are very specific and very few
On explanations given by students and teachers it sounds as if there were some kind of "esoteric" souces. This is especially true of "fatigue" which is a specific physiological mechanism but which is always explained as if it was metaphysical

By not sabotaging ourselves I mean that we have to train our neurological system not to use contrasting movements or opposite set of muscles when performing a repeated series of movements. All the exercises in the world will never train physically our hands what they do is training your neurological pathways. Hitting the right note with the best precision and accuracy, playing a fast scale pattern without accumulating tension, moving the 5th finger with precision ... none of these aspect can really be linked to a physical mechanism at work, to a physical/physiological transformation or to a physical training.

Speed is the delay between contraction and release (lont-term contracted muscles hugely limit speed) and besides any muscle contraction after a key has been depressed is just an incredible wast of energy. Of course in a slow piece you have all the time to play a chord, released, contract as you play the next chord, release, contract as you play a scale, release
How do you do this on a 1/4 = 140 piece? That's the point the release after a contraction must be very very rapid (one fraction of millisecond) and so must be the next contraction
This is what speed is all about

Control over the 4th and 5th finger (which give the illusion of more strength too) works by the same principle. Fast release of contraction aimed to the other fingers and contraction and weight transmitted to the individual fingers. You know that you're gaining such control when you can keep all the fingers in the keyboard and with the least amount possible of "finger-lifting" (the true lifting should come from the forearms) you can just depress 4th and 5th fingers without depressing the other fingers too. Try to do this after you have accumulate contractile tension for a while and you'll see it's impossible without first consciously releasing all that has been accumulated

This is the real key to 4th and 5th finger control not "working-out"

My muscles on the pinky side of the hand and the one surrounding my thumb are far more developed than any normal person I have the occasion to compare with, and definately more developed than me before playing piano. The strength isn't in the fingers, but in the hand muscles that make them move.