What about Jazz?

[dan101]

Art Tatum... improvised and sounded like a complete symphony orchestra realized on a  grand piano. He wrote some nice originals, as well.

[mknueven]

How about Herbie Hancock winning the grammy for jazz?

[indutrial]

How about Herbie Hancock winning the grammy for jazz?

Hancock's a great player and a fine composer. Tunes like "Speak Like A Child", "Riot", and every track on "Maiden Voyage" and "Empyrean Isles" are superlative. Simultaneously, his contributions to one of Miles Davis's greatest groups could never be underemphasized. Plus, the Headhunters records he played on kick ass. I know funk music is probably viewed as a "lower art form" by many of the angry and sexually-confused white kids on this forum, but I think those albums are fabulous.

[webern78]

I know funk music is probably viewed as a "lower art form"

It probably is at any rate, but to Hancock's defense, at least he has a better air cut now. There's still hope.

[indutrial]

It probably is at any rate, but to Hancock's defense, at least he has a better air cut now. There's still hope.

 

[thierry13]

I know funk music is probably viewed as a "lower art form" by many of the angry and sexually-confused white kids on this forum, but I think those albums are fabulous.

I disagree with you. It is not "viewed" as a lower art form .......... it IS actually a lower art form. How are you going to defend funky ? "I like it!" wooohoooo and then being ironic on how we are "angry and sexually-confused white kids"? Your arguments consists in being ironic to the truth and insulting other people. Now tell me how hard do you believe yourself? All your posts make NO point at all, since you didn't explain us how could funk music be as great as the greatest masterpieces in classical music.Ho wait, you won't because it isn't! I bet you will continue quoting my post and then simply insult me and being ironic along the lines of "hooo now classical is too HIGHHHHHH for people like meee buuuu I'm sad the music I like is not high enough  " <- Even that wasn't pathetic enough. You're polluting this forum on your very own way, are you going to say it's your higher form of art?

[indutrial]

I disagree with you.

What else is new...

I guess I'm wrong in being capable of liking "Chameleon", "Sly", "Wiggle Waggle" and other jazz-funk compositions of Hancock's just as much as I like a good chamber work or a piano sonata.

It's all music, and it doesn't need to be stratified for my appreciative purposes. I didn't explain a reason that funk was better than classical music because I never asserted such a claim. And you seamlessly proved my point about angry *** kids spouting about it being a lower art form by...well saying that "IS a lower art form."

There's plenty of reason to "defend funky" as you so eloquently word my actions. I don't know that many classical percussionists who can write a beat as bad-ass sounding as Harvey Mason's trap kit work with the Headhunters. And I would say that Bootsy Collins' bass lines with Parliament and James Brown were pretty damned important. Not to mention the horn arrangements, the recording techniques, advances in keyboard technology, production arrangement, etc.... etc.... etc....

But what's the point. I could probably say something like "the background on this forum is black" and you'd probably still come back saying some crap like "I disagree! Yur arguuments ironic, how can you beleeve that "the background is black" as you put it. Every of the things you say is so EMPTYYY hee hoo ha ho!!!WHOOOOOOOO!!>M<O@@*(&@"

[thierry13]

What else is new...

I guess I'm wrong in being capable of liking "Chameleon", "Sly", "Wiggle Waggle" and other jazz-funk compositions of Hancock's just as much as I like a good chamber work or a piano sonata.

It's all music, and it doesn't need to be stratified for my appreciative purposes. I didn't explain a reason that funk was better than classical music because I never asserted such a claim. And you seamlessly proved my point about angry *** kids spouting about it being a lower art form by...well saying that "IS a lower art form."

There's plenty of reason to "defend funky" as you so eloquently word my actions. I don't know that many classical percussionists who can write a beat as bad-ass sounding as Harvey Mason's trap kit work with the Headhunters. And I would say that Bootsy Collins' bass lines with Parliament and James Brown were pretty damned important. Not to mention the horn arrangements, the recording techniques, advances in keyboard technology, production arrangement, etc.... etc.... etc....

But what's the point. I could probably say something like "the background on this forum is black" and you'd probably still come back saying some crap like "I disagree! Yur arguuments ironic, how can you beleeve that "the background is black" as you put it. Every of the things you say is so EMPTYYY hee hoo ha ho!!!WHOOOOOOOO!!>M<O@@*(&@"

Wow, I didn't know you could write even emptier post than you allready did. I mean what's your point when you get that low? Of crouse funk is music, and there is nothing wrong in liking it Indutrial. To go back to my mcdonald quote : I love mcdonald once in a while, but it STILL is complete TRASH! It IS a lower art form. Did I say it was WRONG to listen to it? No, I never said that. It just has less musical value than classical. And that is a FACT -> consequently it IS a lower art form, wich makes what I said pointless to insult (because you proved on numerous occasions you could not refute a statement, only insult it). The only thing you did in ALL your debates is insulting your opponents, you didn't refute anything and you actually added NOTHING to back your point of view, except : you are a white kid adolescent moron. What, are you black calling us whites? In this case I could tell you Arthur Jensen was a genius look there what he said : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence. Wow, blacks have lower IQ. So now I could call you inferior black teenager who can not refute for the only reason his IQ is too low! The fact is that I will not tell you that, as I could prove you had no argumentative value without throwing annoying and pointless insults (wich could still be true).

PS I am NOT racist and this post should not be understood as such, as the only reason I mentionned the wikipedia link was because he called us "white". I tought I could call him "black" in return. <- I deducted that he was black because he called us white, but he may not be, so if he's not, then simply ignore my statement!

[dnephi]

Hey man, I think that Speed Metal Rock Opera is the greatest form of music.  How can you diss that?

[indutrial]

Hey man, I think that Speed Metal Rock Opera is the greatest form of music.  How can you diss that?

Here are four men who would defend your opinion to the death. Dissing them is pretty much not an option.

[frigo]

ATTENTION: this is NOT an argumention post - it is just an insult - as YOU will call it

Thierry13 is god! "He Took My Sins Away", and I can now see the light! I did stop my "Creole Love Call" to listen to thierry13! I can now see "I Got Rhythm"! I have my "Body and Soul" together with your words in my heart, thierry13! "I Don't Stand A Ghost Of A Chance With You", thierry13! I can now feel this "Warm Valley" that I reached with your help! "Thigns Ain't What They Used To Be"! Your opinions, my god thierry13, are "Exactly Like You": "Fantastic, That's You"...
"Someday,Sweetheart", "I'm Going To Heaven If It Takes My Life"...

What about this?

[andyd]

Well as thierry13 seems to know pretty much everything he thinks he needs to regarding music, perhaps instead we can help him with his English...

Jazz is to classical what Mcdonald's is to great restaurants. It's trash and will allways be even if lots of people like it.

Corrections please

[thierry13]

Well as thierry13 seems to know pretty much everything he thinks he needs to regarding music, perhaps instead we can help him with his English...

Corrections please

I am not english, and actually seldom speak it anywhere else than here, so give me a break about that. To frigo : that was the most insignificant thing you ever wrote, and the most insignificant thing I ever saw on this forum. I mean come on, what was your point, if NOT insulting(as you ironicaly mentionned I would call it).

[frigo]

To frigo : that was the most insignificant thing you ever wrote, and the most insignificant thing I ever saw on this forum. I mean come on, what was your point, if NOT insulting(as you ironicaly mentionned I would call it).

Thank you for the complement! I think I've written more insignificant things in my life before, but, as you're god, you know them all, so I trust you! Thank you! It's impressive how much insignificant my post is, that even leads you to write another one talking about it! But, hey, you're god...

Ironicaly, my point was really insult, but you must know it: you're god, you know everything
(good you saw that that YOU is refering to you - you know, god's name must never be written in small letters)
"The Old Circus Train Turn-Around Blues" 

[indutrial]

I am not english, and actually seldom speak it anywhere else than here, so give me a break about that. To frigo : that was the most insignificant thing you ever wrote, and the most insignificant thing I ever saw on this forum. I mean come on, what was your point, if NOT insulting(as you ironicaly mentionned I would call it).

At the very least you should add a few more words besides ironic, insignificant, empty, and disagree to your repertoire.

Whether your English is good or bad, it's pretty clear that no amount of grammatical tempering will make your posts any more sensible.

[thalbergmad]

This is what started off my love affair with Jazz, although i stick mainly to Trad.

A clip of Bob Wallis and his Storyville Jazzmen from the film "Thats Trad Dad"

Theirry13 is gonna love this.

Thal

[indutrial]

I'm curious to know what people think of Cecil Taylor, a "jazz" pianist who's been putting out great records for years.

[webern78]

I'm curious to know what people think of Cecil Taylor, a "jazz" pianist who's been putting out great records for years.

Even worst then Xenakis.

[indutrial]

Even worst then Xenakis.

Reasons?

[webern78]

Reasons?

It's completely non-intuitive.

[indutrial]

It's completely non-intuitive.

Brilliant.

[Petter]

I'm just listening to the swedish jazz pianists Jan Johansson who blends jazz together with swedish folk music. Simply amazing.

Are you from sweden originally? If not Im happy that record is known to someone outside sweden. Well I´m happy anyways 

[mephisto]

Are you from sweden originally? If not Im happy that record is known to someone outside sweden. Well I´m happy anyways 

I am Norwegian

[arensky]

I'm curious to know what people think of Cecil Taylor, a "jazz" pianist who's been putting out great records for years.

I think he's great, I particularly like the Nat Hentoff produced "The World of Cecil Taylor" on the Candid label. His dissection and reassembly of "This Nearly was Mine" and "Lazy Afternoon" are  fascinating views of American popular song. Archie Shepp's playing on this album is some of his best work. I heard Taylor with Max Roach (a duo) in the 90's, that was some hair raising music  They made a record of that project, it's probably still available.

I think the link you posted is a little laid back but it's definitely authentic Cecil, good stuff.

[indutrial]

I think the link you posted is a little laid back but it's definitely authentic Cecil, good stuff.

It's not too easy to find Youtube videos of that type of music. Several others of the pianists I mentioned don't have any high-quality videos available on there.

Craig Taborn's work can be found on E-Music. His second record, Light Made Lighter, is an excellent piano-trio disc and his third record, Junk Magic, is probably one of the finest electronica-influenced avant-jazz albums I've ever heard. Purests beware...since he uses electric pianos, synths, and extensive sampling/electronics on that one. It doesn't hurt that reedsman Aaron Stewart, violist Mat Maneri and Bad-Plus drummer David King back him up on that disc.

Samples at:
https://www.emusic.com/artist/Craig-Taborn-MP3-Download/11590382.html

He also plays his ass off on this record:
https://www.emusic.com/album/Scott-Colley-Architect-Of-The-Silent-Moment-MP3-Download/11007520.html

[Petter]

I´ve played on the same piano as Cecil Taylor  . Appearently he knocked over some of the decor on stage while walking around doing a voice recital at Berwaldhallen Stockholm. I wish I´d been there. 

[rob47]

Jazz is to classical what Mcdonald's is to great restaurants. It's trash and will allways be even if lots of people like it.

I don't think that's true. But, what I do know to be true is that every man has at some stage while taking a pee flushed half way through and then raced against the flush.

[indutrial]

I´ve played on the same piano as Cecil Taylor  . Appearently he knocked over some of the decor on stage while walking around doing a voice recital at Berwaldhallen Stockholm. I wish I´d been there. 

He's pretty out there in terms of spirituality and his ideas about music are very strange, but like other guys in that ilk (Anthony Braxton comes to mind), none of that stuff really bothers me since the music is consistently interesting and impossible to nail down.

[mknueven]

Thierry -
you need to find out what art is - and then go from there.

[popdog]

I'm fond of Paul Desmond.   His sense of phasing is amazing - you can listen to one of his solos and their rich with dozens of good licks, there's never much filler (if any).   His style of music is intoxicating, one of the chief pleasures of music. 

Anyone else familiar with Desmond? 

[gyzzzmo]

Its funny youre so ANTI-Jazz Thierry, do you actually know what jazz is? Jazz is just a type of music wich follows certain patterns and makes use of the 7, 9 and 11th notes. All classical composers use patterns too, and certain chords, just other types. Why are the classical composers any different from the good jazz composers these days?

gyzzzmo

[daro]

Anyone else familiar with Desmond?

Many people may not be familiar with his name, but they've probably heard his most famous composition - and then wrongly assumed that Dave Brubeck had written it.

yd

[indutrial]

I'm fond of Paul Desmond.   His sense of phasing is amazing - you can listen to one of his solos and their rich with dozens of good licks, there's never much filler (if any).   His style of music is intoxicating, one of the chief pleasures of music. 

Anyone else familiar with Desmond? 

I know he wrote the now-famous "Take Five" and played with Dave Brubeck, but beyond that I'm not as familiar with his work as I should be.

[arensky]

I know he wrote the now-famous "Take Five" and played with Dave Brubeck, but beyond that I'm not as familiar with his work as I should be.

Here's a good one. Brubeck's solo is a bit unfocused in my opinion but this is Desmond at his best. What a beautiful tone. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiWaylf4uXw

[mattgreenecomposer]

That picture was hilarious!!!

[optima]

I'm curious to know what people think of Cecil Taylor, a "jazz" pianist who's been putting out great records for years.

I was just curious(i am completely irrelevant as far as jazz is concerned): you mean this guy knows what chords he presses, i mean the harmony? and it is improvised?Wow!

but still , personally, I don't like at all the result. It's like random notes..it  doesn't express any feeling for me , it 's a chaos...

[optima]

well, the fact is i don't know many things about jazz..i ve only heard Ray Charles, Gershwin and truly love them but these are not characteristic examples since they have only "elements" of jazz it their music, right?

What I have in mind as "pure jazz" is  really incoherent and vague which is not necessarily bad, but it strikes me as a music genre really insufficient to express every single human emotion - from Mozart's "joy of life" and Chopin's  "melancholic optimism" to Beethoven's "passion for love" and Skrjabin's " inner buttle between life and death" .Instead, for me always, it seems that jazz is sth between "oh it's quite in here, i hear the rain and i got the blues" to " dance with me my fair lady"   i mean nothing more internal and deep and passionate..

But, as i said before , perhaps this is because i haven't heard a lot of jazz up to this day.I was wondering if someone of you who really love jazz  can point me some jazz pieces that are really  full of tension, like Skrjabin's D-sharp minor etude or sadness and devine beauty like Rachmaninnof's Elegie in E flat minor !

This post  may sound a bit bizarre coz all the terms I use are mine and I' m neither a musicologist nor a native speaker...I' m just trying to make u undertsand what emotions the music provokes to me and I' like to find "similar" way of feeling in jazz...
 

[indutrial]

well, the fact is i don't know many things about jazz..i ve only heard Ray Charles, Gershwin and truly love them but these are not characteristic examples since they have only "elements" of jazz it their music, right?

What I have in mind as "pure jazz" is  really incoherent and vague which is not necessarily bad, but it strikes me as a music genre really insufficient to express every single human emotion - from Mozart's "joy of life" and Chopin's  "melancholic optimism" to Beethoven's "passion for love" and Skrjabin's " inner buttle between life and death" .Instead, for me always, it seems that jazz is sth between "oh it's quite in here, i hear the rain and i got the blues" to " dance with me my fair lady"   i mean nothing more internal and deep and passionate..

But, as i said before , perhaps this is because i haven't heard a lot of jazz up to this day.I was wondering if someone of you who really love jazz  can point me some jazz pieces that are really  full of tension, like Skrjabin's D-sharp minor etude or sadness and devine beauty like Rachmaninnof's Elegie in E flat minor !

This post  may sound a bit bizarre coz all the terms I use are mine and I' m neither a musicologist nor a native speaker...I' m just trying to make u undertsand what emotions the music provokes to me and I' like to find "similar" way of feeling in jazz...

Jazz isn't usually about the individual pieces nearly as much as it is about the players, and per the development of "jazz" since the 1960s, I would say that any notions of "pure jazz" or a set definitions that define jazz vs. nonjazz are not quite relevant anymore. To me, it comes down to improvised vs. non-improvised and usually the best stuff in the jazz section of a record store can have any balance of each of these two things. Some jazz albums are heavily scored and composed and they sound excellent. Other albums are completely freely improvised, and often those sound good as well. I would recommend simply checking out several different musicians (join E-Music or something) and finding the ones that you can connect with stylistically.

If you like classical piano playing, maybe check out the following improv/jazz pianists:

Marc Copland
John Taylor
Edward Simon
Russ Lossing
Bobo Stenson
Craig Taborn (who also plays a lot of Rhodes piano)
Marilyn Crispell
Håvard Wilk
Jason Moran
Bob Degen
Stephen Oliva
Bill Carrothers
Eduard Ferlet

there are lots that I would recommend, but these should provide plenty of interesting stuff to dig into.

[Petter]

Jazz isn't usually about the individual pieces nearly as much as it is about the players, and per the development of "jazz" since the 1960s, I would say that any notions of "pure jazz" or a set definitions that define jazz vs. nonjazz are not quite relevant anymore. To me, it comes down to improvised vs. non-improvised and usually the best stuff in the jazz section of a record store can have any balance of each of these two things. Some jazz albums are heavily scored and composed and they sound excellent. Other albums are completely freely improvised, and often those sound good as well. I would recommend simply checking out several different musicians (join E-Music or something) and finding the ones that you can connect with stylistically.

If you like classical piano playing, maybe check out the following improv/jazz pianists:

Marc Copland
John Taylor
Edward Simon
Russ Lossing
Bobo Stenson
Craig Taborn (who also plays a lot of Rhodes piano)
Marilyn Crispell
Håvard Wilk
Jason Moran
Bob Degen
Stephen Oliva
Bill Carrothers
Eduard Ferlet

there are lots that I would recommend, but these should provide plenty of interesting stuff to dig into.

Listen to this record. Its very soothing and mellow, like most ECM records. It´s a personal favourite

[indutrial]

Listen to this record. Its very soothing and mellow, like most ECM records. It´s a personal favourite

I have this one and I definitely agree with you that it's quality work. I have always liked Paul Motian's work, especially his recent trio discs with Bill Frisell and Joe Lovano.

Stenson and his trio members have also each played on like a zillion other ECM records with other contributors to that great label. One of Jormin's recent performances was on a very standout session led by violinist Marc Feldman. The group consisted of Feldman, Jormin, John Taylor on piano, and drummer Tom Rainey. This is a really good choice for someone who wants to hear some really classically-inflected chamber-ish improv.

Samples at:
https://www.amazon.com/What-Exit-Mark-Feldman/dp/B000H7JDTU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1205226314&sr=1-1

[optima]

@indutrial, peter

thanx for your suggestions - as soon as i find time( and fix my monitors   ) i ll listen to them and post my opinion!

[Petter]

Indutrial, I´ve been wanting to check out Bill Frisell and John Abercrombie lately. Do you have any recommendations? I recently bought Angel song with Kenny Wheeler and I enjoy it alot.

[indutrial]

Indutrial, I´ve been wanting to check out Bill Frisell and John Abercrombie lately. Do you have any recommendations? I recently bought Angel song with Kenny Wheeler and I enjoy it alot.

John Abercrombie's work ranges from his early fusion recordings with Billy Cobham and his 'Gateway' trio with Dave Holland and Jack DeJohnette. Since the early 80s, he's been one of the mainstays on ECM's label and has put out a ton of records. If you liked 'Angel Song', you should look for the newer records that John and Kenny did in their trio with pianist Marc Copland (who I've mentioned many times). The three of them sound magnificent together, especially in a setting with no drums or bass. They've done two records, and I have Brand New. John and Kenny also recorded another record pretty recently for the Cam Jazz label, alongside bassist Anders Jormin (from the Bobo Stenson trio). I would also recommend all three of John's 'third quartet' records with his current 'string' group (w/ Mark Feldman - violin, Marc Johnson - bass, Joey Baron - drums) and his older record November, which I like a lot because it features John Surman playing bass clarinet and saxes.

Frisell is not really a favorite of mine, especially considering how self-indulgent and uneventful his Americana records sound. He is a pretty good player, but he tends to put style far above substance and can't hack it on playing in a lot of settings that most jazz guitarists would tackle effortlessly. My favorite recording that he's played on recently would have to be Cuong Vu's It's Mostly Residual, a heavily electronica-influenced record from 2006. I mostly like it because the drummer and bassist are amazing and the leader (a trumpeter) successfully writes material ranging from the dead-simple and straightforward to the frantically complex meter-shifting mayhem that propeller-heads like myself love. Frisell plays better on that record than I've heard him play on his own discs. He is also really good on the recent trio discs he's done with Joe Lovano and Paul Motian.

His drawbacks were very apparent when I heard him playing alongside John Scofield on Scofield's Grace Under Pressure and Marc Johnson's two albums Bass Desires and Second Sight. Frisell spends too much time dicking with effect pedals and Scofield keeps it simple and just smokes him without even wanting to. During Frisell's solos on the first one, I find Scofield's comping to be more compelling.

And stay far far far far far away from John Zorn's Naked City records, which Frisell played guitar on. Those records are a bunch of pretentious dadaist horse manure. Probably the most over-contrived mess among all of Zorn's over-contrived projects.

[ctrastevere]

And stay far far far far far away from John Zorn's Naked City records, which Frisell played guitar on. Those records are a bunch of pretentious dadaist horse manure. Probably the most over-contrived mess among all of Zorn's over-contrived projects.

What makes you say that? I find them to be pretty amusing.

[indutrial]

What makes you say that? I find them to be pretty amusing.

I find them mildly amusing, but I find that they're one of those acts that gets way too hyped out the ass by people who want to wow people with their dadaist interests (like college assholes who buy Che shirts). Zorn's a kind of darling in the world of those collegiate avant-garde hipsters and punkrock "intellectuals", and that's never a good thing. I personally think that Zorn is not a very inventive sax player and that most of his groups rely way too heavily on their "out there" aesthetics. As a composer, he overuses pastiche methods to the point where everything sounds like a hodge-podge. Naked City has one composition where there's a minute-and-a-half of completely random-seeming stylistic shifts, all carefully-composed, but what does it really matter? Each little segment has some very specific source from elsewhere in the twentieth century and the only difference is that it was original THEN. Another good example of this style is definitely seen in his piano composition Carny, which jumps from one style to another and never quite sounds like it could be, well, a style for John Zorn the individual. Naked City operates the same way, drawing in a little bit of hardcore, playing some snarky TV theme covers, and of course the obligatory atrocious full-frontal-assaults of screeching and squalling improv that Zorn and his groups always seem to come around to (.....yaaawwnnnn....).

Don't get me wrong, the musicians in that group are awesome, but I think everyone of them has done better work in pretty much everything else they've ever worked on, especially Fred Frith and Joey Baron. I don't think the "singer" is worth the cost of all the microphones he's probably ruined. Zorn's leadership turns them nothing more than a flash-in-the-pan musical oddity for hipsters and record collectors to pin on their chests as a symbol to impress upon, well, other hipsters and record collectors.

Zorn's qualities as a composer have slowly been coming into more focus these past few years as he has spent more time dabbling in classical-ish composition (chamber pieces, etc..). I really liked his discs Magick and Mysterium, which featured a variety of different instrumental pieces and a very excellent vocal work (I don't remember the names off the top of my head).

As a heavily-involved enthusiast of the scene that John Zorn's work stems from, I assure you that there's consistently been dozens and dozens of other musical things going on that are worth more of your attention and that are far more rewarding.

(sorry for the rant, but since Zorn recently got one of those $500K genius grants, he's certainly up for discussion).

[Petter]

@indutrial, peter

thanx for your suggestions - as soon as i find time( and fix my monitors   ) i ll listen to them and post my opinion!

If you live in US you can go to www.pandora.com and type any of those names Indutrial listed and you will get suggestions about simular music. The site is unfortunately unavailable in Europe (or at least in sweden) now cause of copyright issues. I think the site might work for classical music aswell but I haven´t tried.

[xtraheat]

Thierry, I am sure you hear this all the time, but you are a talentless *** who vents on this forum to make up for your life sucking so much

[madami]

Hi,

I found this on you tube. Its Chick Corea and keith Jarrett playing Mozart concerto for two piano's.

&feature=related

Perhaps slightly off point but interesting anyway. There are some interesting comments from, I think Chick Corea at the end, which represent a pro jazz player's view of playing classical music. Those of you who enjoy debating these sort of thing's can also see two jazz legends tackle some classical music.

[thierry13]

Hi,

I found this on you tube. Its Chick Corea and keith Jarrett playing Mozart concerto for two piano's.

&feature=related

Perhaps slightly off point but interesting anyway. There are some interesting comments from, I think Chick Corea at the end, which represent a pro jazz player's view of playing classical music. Those of you who enjoy debating these sort of thing's can also see two jazz legends tackle some classical music.

You can see Jarett had a better classical training than Corea. Some 6 yrs old chinese would do better than both tough.

[ctrastevere]

You can see Jarett had a better classical training than Corea. Some 6 yrs old chinese would do better than both tough.

Nope.