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Topic: For those of you who don't believe in God  (Read 13562 times)

Offline punkpianist360

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For those of you who don't believe in God
on: December 17, 2008, 06:31:31 PM
This is proof of his existence

St. Thomas Aquinas, in the thirteenth century, formulated the famous "five ways" by which God's existence can be demonstrated philosophically:

1. The "unmoved mover" argument. We know that there is motion in the world; whatever is in motion is moved by another thing; this other thing also must be moved by something; to avoid an infinite regression, we must posit a "first mover," which is God.
2. The "nothing is caused by itself" argument. For example, a table is brought into being by a carpenter, who is caused by his parents. Again, we cannot go on to infinity, so there must be a first cause, which is God.
3. The cosmological argument. All physical things, even mountains, boulders, and rivers, come into being and go out of existence, no matter how long they last. Therefore, since time is infinite, there must be some time at which none of these things existed. But if there were nothing at that point in time, how could there be anything at all now, since nothing cannot cause anything? Thus, there must always have been at least one necessary thing that is eternal, which is God.
4. Objects in the world have differing degrees of qualities such as goodness. But speaking of more or less goodness makes sense only by comparison with what is the maximum goodness, which is God.
5. The teleological argument (argument from design). Things in the world move toward goals, just as the arrow does not move toward its goal except by the archer's directing it. Thus, there must be an intelligent designer who directs all things to their goals, and this is God.
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Offline punkpianist360

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Re: For those of you who don't believe in God
Reply #1 on: December 17, 2008, 06:32:12 PM
Arguments for the Existence of God
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The arguments for the existence of God constitute one of the finest attempts of the human mind to break out of the world and go beyond the sensible or phenomenal realm of experience.

Certainly the question of God's existence is the most important question of human philosophy. It affects the whole tenor of human life, whether man is regarded as the supreme being in the universe or whether it is believed that man has a superior being that he must love and obey, or perhaps defy.

There are three ways one can argue for the existence of God.


First, the a priori approach argues from a conception of God as a being so perfect that his nonexistence is inconceivable.
Second, the a posteriori approach gives evidence from the world, from the observable, empirical universe, insisting that God is necessary to explain certain features of the cosmos.
Third, the existential approach asserts direct experience of God by way of personal revelation. This approach is not really an argument in the usual sense, because one does not usually argue for something that can be directly experienced.

The A Priori Approach
This approach is the heart of the famous ontological argument, devised by Anselm of Canterbury though adumbrated earlier in the system of Augustine. This argument begins with a special definition of God as infinite, perfect, and necessary.
Anselm said that God cannot be conceived in any way other than "a being than which nothing greater can be conceived." Even the fool knows what he means by "God" when he asserts, "There is no God" (Ps. 14:1). But if the most perfect being existed only in thought and not in reality, then it would not really be the most perfect being, for the one that existed in reality would be more perfect. Therefore, concludes Anselm, "no one who understands what God is, can conceive that God does not exist." In short, it would be self contradictory to say, "I can think of a perfect being that doesn't exist," because existence would have to be a part of perfection. One would be saying, "I can conceive of something greater than that which nothing greater can be conceived", which is absurd.

The ontological argument has had a long and stormy history. It has appealed to some of the finest minds in Western history, usually mathematicians like Descartes, Spinoza, and Leibniz. However, it fails to persuade most people, who seem to harbor the same suspicion as Kant that "the unconditioned necessity of a judgment does not form the absolute necessity of a thing." That is, perfection may not be a true predicate and thus a proposition can be logically necessary without being true in fact.


The A Posteriori Approach
Popular mentality seems to appreciate the a posteriori approach better. The ontological argument can be made without ever appealing to sensation, but the cosmological and teleological arguments require a careful look at the world. The former focuses on the cause, while the latter stresses the design of the universe.

The Cosmological Argument
This has more than one form. The earliest occurs in Plato (Laws, Book X) and Aristotle (Metaphysics, Book VIII) and stresses the need to explain the cause of motion. Assuming that rest is natural and motion is unnatural, these thinkers arrived at God as the necessary Prime Mover of all things. Thomas Aquinas used motion as his first proof in the Summa Theologica (Q.2, Art.3). Everything that moves has to be moved by another thing. But this chain of movers cannot go on to infinity, a key assumption, because there would then be no first mover and thus no other mover. We must arrive, therefore, at a first mover, Aquinas concludes, "and this everyone understands to be God."
This argument from motion is not nearly as cogent for our scientific generation because we take motion to be natural and rest to be unnatural, as the principle of inertia states. Many philosophers insist that the notion of an infinite series of movers is not at all impossible or contradictory.

The most interesting, and persuasive, form of the cosmological argument is Aquinas's "third way," the argument from contingency. Its strength derives from the way it employs both permanence and change. Epicurus stated the metaphysical problem centuries ago: "Something obviously exists now, and something never sprang from nothing." Being, therefore, must have been without beginning. An Eternal Something must be admitted by all, theist, atheist, and agnostic.

But the physical universe could not be this Eternal Something because it is obviously contingent, mutable, subject to decay. How could a decomposing entity explain itself to all eternity? If every present contingent thing / event depends on a previous contingent thing / event and so on ad infinitum, then this does not provide an adequate explanation of anything.

Hence, for there to be anything at all contingent in the universe, there must be at least one thing that is not contingent, something that is necessary throughout all change and self established. In this case "necessary" does not apply to a proposition but to a thing, and it means infinite, eternal, everlasting, self caused, self existent.

It is not enough to say that infinite time will solve the problem of contingent being. No matter how much time you have, dependent being is still dependent on something. Everything contingent within the span of infinity will, at some particular moment, not exist. But if there was a moment when nothing existed, then nothing would exist now.

The choice is simple: one chooses either a self existent God or a self existent universe, and the universe is not behaving as if it is self existent. In fact, according to the second law of thermodynamics, the universe is running down like a clock or, better, cooling off like a giant stove. Energy is constantly being diffused or dissipated, that is, progressively distributed throughout the universe. If this process goes on for a few billion more years, and scientists have never observed a restoration of dissipated energy, then the result will be a state of thermal equilibrium, a "heat death," a random degradation of energy throughout the entire cosmos and hence the stagnation of all physical activity.

Naturalists from Lucretius to Sagan have felt that we need not postulate God as long as nature can be considered a self explanatory entity for all eternity. But it is difficult to hold this doctrine if the second law [of thermodynamics] is true and entropy is irreversible. If the cosmos is running down or cooling off, then it could not have been running and cooling forever. It must have had a beginning.

A popular retort to the cosmological argument is to ask, "If God made the universe, then who made God?" If one insists that the world had a cause, must one not also insist that God had a cause? No, because if God is a necessary being, this is established if one accepts the proof, then it is unnecessary to inquire into his origins. It would be like asking, "Who made the unmakable being?" or "Who caused the uncausable being?"

More serious is the objection that the proof is based on an uncritical acceptance of the "principle of sufficient reason," the notion that every event / effect has a cause. If this principle is denied, even if it is denied in metaphysics, the cosmological argument is defanged. Hume argued that causation is a psychological, not a metaphysical, principle, one whose origins lay in the human propensity to assume necessary connections between events when all we really see is contiguity and succession. Kant seconded Hume by arguing that causation is a category built into our minds as one of the many ways in which we order our experience. Sartre felt that the universe was "gratuitous." Bertrand Russell claimed that the question of origins was tangled in meaningless verbiage and that we must be content to declare that the universe is "just there and that's all."

One does not prove the principle of causality easily. It is one of those foundational assumptions that is made in building a world view. It can be pointed out, however, that if we jettison the idea of sufficient reason, we will destroy not only metaphysics but science as well. When one attacks causality, one attacks much of knowledge per se, for without this principle the rational connection in most of our learning falls to pieces. Surely it is not irrational to inquire into the cause of the entire universe.
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Offline punkpianist360

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Re: For those of you who don't believe in God
Reply #2 on: December 17, 2008, 06:32:50 PM
The Teleological or Design Argument
This is one of the oldest and most popular and intelligible of the theistic proofs. It suggests that there is a definite analogy between the order and regularity of the cosmos and a product of human ingenuity. Voltaire put it in rather simplistic terms: "If a watch proves the existence of a watchmaker but the universe does not prove the existence of a great Architect, then I consent to be called a fool."
No one can deny the universe seems to be designed; instances of purposive ordering are all around us. Almost anywhere can be found features of being that show the universe to be basically friendly to life, mind, personality, and values. Life itself is a cosmic function, that is, a very complex arrangement of things both terrestrial and extraterrestrial must obtain before life can subsist. The earth must be just the right size, its rotation must be within certain limits, its tilt must be correct to cause the seasons, its land - water ratio must be a delicate balance. Our biological structure is very fragile. A little too much heat or cold and we die. We need light, but not too much ultraviolet. We need heat, but not too much infrared. We live just beneath an airscreen shielding us from millions of missiles every day. We live just ten miles above a rock screen that shields us from the terrible heat under our feet. Who created all these screens and shields that make our earthly existence possible?

Once again we are faced with a choice. Either the universe was designed or it developed all these features by chance. The cosmos is either a plan or an accident!

Most people have an innate repugnance to the notion of chance because it contradicts the way we ordinarily explain things. Chance is not an explanation but an abandonment of explanation. When a scientist explains an immediate event, he operates on the assumption that this is a regular universe where everything occurs as a result of the orderly procession of cause and effect. Yet when the naturalist comes to metaphysics, to the origin of the entire cosmos, he abandons the principle of sufficient reason and assumes that the cause of everything is an unthinkable causelessness, chance, or fate.

Suppose you were standing facing a target and you saw an arrow fired from behind you hit the bull's eye. Then you saw nine more arrows fired in rapid succession all hitting the same bull's eye. The aim is so accurate that each arrow splits the previous arrow as it hits. Now an arrow shot into the air is subject to many contrary and discordant processes, gravity, air pressure, and wind. When ten arrows reach the bull's eye, does this not rule out the possibility of mere chance? Would you not say that this was the result of an expert archer? Is this parable not analogous to our universe?

It is objected that the design argument, even if valid, does not prove a creator but only an architect, and even then only an architect intelligent enough to produce the known universe, not necessarily an omniscient being. This objection is correct. We must not try to prove more than the evidence will allow. We will not get the 100 percent Yahweh of the Bible from any evidence of natural theology. However, this universe of ours is so vast and wonderful we can safely conclude that its designer would be worthy of our worship and devotion.

Many object that the theory of evolution takes most of the wind out of the design argument. Evolution shows that the marvelous design in living organisms came about by slow adaptation to the environment, not by intelligent creation. This is a false claim. Even if admitted, evolution only introduces a longer time frame into the question of design. Proving that watches came from a completely automated factory with no human intervention would not make us give up interest in a designer, for if we thought a watch was wonderful, what must we think of a factory that produces watches? Would it not suggest a designer just as forcefully? Religious people have been overly frightened by the theory of evolution.

Even the great critics of natural theology, Hume and Kant, betrayed an admiration for the teleological argument. Hume granted it a certain limited validity. Kant went even further: "This proof will always deserve to be treated with respect. It is the oldest, the clearest and most in conformity with human reason . . . We have nothing to say against the reasonableness and utility of this line of argument, but wish, on the contrary, to commend and encourage it."


The Moral Argument
This is the most recent of the theistic proofs. The first major philosopher to use it was Kant, who felt that the traditional proofs were defective. Kant held that the existence of God and the immortality of the soul were matters of faith, not ordinary speculative reason, which, he claimed, is limited to sensation.
Kant reasoned that the moral law commands us to seek the summum bonum (highest good), with perfect happiness as a logical result. But a problem arises when we contemplate the unpleasant fact that "there is not the slightest ground in the moral law for a necessary connexion between morality and proportionate happiness in a being that belongs to the world as a part of it." The only postulate, therefore, that will make sense of man's moral experience is "the existence of a cause of all nature, distinct from nature itself," i.e., a God who will properly reward moral endeavor in another world. In a godless universe man's deepest experience would be a cruel enigma.

In his Rumor of Angels, Peter Berger gives an interesting negative version of the moral argument, which he calls "the argument from damnation." Our apodictic moral condemnation of such immoral men as Adolf Eichmann seems to transcend tastes and mores; it seems to demand a condemnation of supernatural dimensions.

Some deeds are not only evil but monstrously evil; they appear immune to any kind of moral relativizing. In making such high voltage moral judgments, as when we condemn slavery and genocide, we point to a transcendent realm of moral absolutes. Otherwise, all our moralizing is pointless and groundless. A "preaching relativist" is one of the most comical of self contradictions.

Most modern thinkers who use the moral argument continue Kant's thesis that God is a necessary postulate to explain moral experience. Kant thought the moral law could be established by reason, but he called in God to guarantee the reward for virtue. Modern thinkers do not use God so much for the reward as for providing a ground for the moral law in the first place.

The moral argument starts with the simple fact of ethical experience. The pressure to do one's duty can be felt as strongly as the pressure of an empirical object. Who or what is causing this pressure? It is not enough to say that we are conditioned by society to feel those pressures. Some of the greatest moralists in history have acquired their fame precisely because they criticized the moral failings of their group, tribe, class, race, or nation. If social subjectivism is the explanation of moral motivation, then we have no right to criticize slavery or genocide or anything!

Evolutionists attack the moral argument by insisting that all morality is merely a long development from animal instincts. Men gradually work out their ethical systems by living together in social communities. But this objection is a two edged sword: if it kills morality, it also kills reason and the scientific method. The evolutionist believes that the human intellect developed from the physical brain of the primates, yet he assumes that the intellect is trustworthy. If the mind is entitled to trust, though evolved from the lower forms, why not the moral nature also?

Many people will go part way and accept moral objectivism, but they want to stop with a transcendent realm of impersonal moral absolutes. They deny that one must believe in a Person, Mind, or Lawgiver. This seems reductive. It is difficult to imagine an "impersonal mind." How could a thing make us feel duty bound to be kind, helpful, truthful, and loving? We should press on, all the way to a Person, God, the Lawgiver. Only then is the moral experience adequately explained.


The Question of Validity
How valid are all these theistic proofs? This question raises issues in a number of fields: logic, metaphysics, physics, and theory of knowledge. Some thinkers like Aquinas feel that the proofs reach the level of demonstration. Others like Hume say that we should just suspend judgment and remain skeptics. Still others like Pascal and Kant reject the traditional proofs but offer instead practical grounds or reasons for accepting God's existence. Pascal's famous wager is an appeal to pragmatism; it makes sense, in view of the eternal consequences, to bet on the existence of God.
Paul seems to demand a high view of the theistic proofs when he says that the unbelievers are "without excuse." "What can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made" (Rom. 1:19 - 20).

Paul was not necessarily affirming that the arguments are deductive, analytical, or demonstrative. If someone rejected a proposition of high probability, we could still say that he was "without excuse." The arguments, in their cumulative effect, make a very strong case for the existence of God, but they are not logically inexorable or rationally inevitable. If we define proof as probable occurrence based on empirically produced experiences and subject to the test of reasonable judgment, then we can say the arguments prove the existence of God.

If God truly exists, then we are dealing with a factual proposition, and what we really want when we ask for proof of a factual proposition is not a demonstration of its logical impossibility but a degree of evidence that will exclude reasonable doubt. Something can be so probable that it excludes reasonable doubt without being deductive or analytical or demonstrative or logically inevitable. We feel that the theistic proofs, excluding the ontological argument, fall into this category.

Natural theology, however, can never establish the existence of the biblical God. These proofs may make one a deist, but only revelation will make one a Christian. Reason operating without revelation always turns up with a deity different from Yahweh, the Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. One can confirm this easily by comparing Yahweh with the deities of Aristotle, Spinoza, Voltaire, and Thomas Paine.

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Offline punkpianist360

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Re: For those of you who don't believe in God
Reply #3 on: December 17, 2008, 06:33:25 PM
The Existence of God
Catholic Information
The topic will be treated as follows:

I. As Known Through Natural Reason

A. The Problem Stated

1. Formal Anti-Theism

2. Types of Theism

B. Theistic Proofs

1. A Posteriori Argument

(a) The general causality argument

(b) The argument from design

(c) The argument from conscience

(d) The argument from universal consent

2. A Priori, or Ontological, Argument

II. As Known Through Faith

A. Sacred Scriptures

B. Church Councils

C. The Knowability of God

I. AS KNOWN THROUGH NATURAL REASON

("THE GOD OF THE PHILOSOPHERS")

A. THE PROBLEM STATED

1. Formal Anti-Theism

Had the Theist merely to face a blank Atheistic denial of God's existence, his task would he comparatively a light one. Formal dogmatic Atheism is self-refuting, and has never de facto won the reasoned assent of any considerable number of men. Nor can Polytheism, however easily it may take hold of the popular imagination, ever satisfy the mind of a philosopher. But there are several varieties of what may be described as virtual Atheism which cannot be dismissed so summarily.

There is the Agnosticism, for instance, of Herbert Spencer, which, while admitting the rational necessity of postulating the Absolute or Unconditioned behind the relative and conditioned objects of our knowledge declares that Absolute to be altogether unknowable, to be in fact the Unknowable, about which without being guilty of contradiction we can predicate nothing at all, except perhaps that It exists; and there are other types of Agnosticism. Then again there is Pantheism in an almost endless variety of forms, all of which, however, may be logically reduced to the three following types:

the purely materialistic, which, making matter the only reality, would explain life by mechanics and chemistry, reduce abstract thought to the level of an organic process deny any higher ultimate moral value to the Ten Commandments than to Newton's law of gravitation, and, finally, identify God Himself with the universe thus interpreted (see MATERIALISM; MONISM);

the purely idealistic, which, choosing the contrary alternative, would make mind the only reality, convert the material universe into an idea, and identify God with this all-embracing mind or idea, conceived as eternally evolving itself into passing phases or expressions of being and attaining self-consciousness in the souls of men; and

the combined materialistic-idealistic, which tries to steer a middle course and without sacrificing mind to matter or matter to mind, would conceive the existing universe, with which God is identified, as some sort of "double-faced" single entity.

Thus to accomplish even the beginning of his task the Theist has to show, against Agnostics, that the knowledge of God attainable by rational inference -- however inadequate and imperfect it may be -- is as true and valid, as far as it goes, as any other piece of knowledge we possess; and against Pantheists that the God of reason is a supra-mundane personal God distinct both from matter and from the finite human mind -- that neither we ourselves nor the earth we tread upon enter into the constitution of His being.

2. Types of Theism

But passing from views that are formally anti-theistic, it is found that among Theists themselves certain differences exist which tend to complicate the problem, and increase the difficulty of stating it briefly and clearly. Some of these differences are brief and clear.

Some of these differences are merely formal and accidental and do not affect the substance of the theistic thesis, but others are of substantial importance, as, for instance, whether we can validly establish the truth of God's existence by the same kind of rational inference (e.g. from effect to cause) as we employ in other departments of knowledge, or whether, in order to justify our belief in this truth, we must not rather rely on some transcendental principle or axiom, superior and antecedent to dialectical reasoning; or on immediate intuition; or on some moral, sentimental, emotional, or ęsthetic instinct or perception, which is voluntary rather than intellectual.

Kant denied in the name of "pure reason" the inferential validity of the classical theistic proofs, while in the name of "practical reason" he postulated God's existence as an implicate of the moral law, and Kant's method has been followed or imitated by many Theists -- by some who fully agree with him in rejecting the classical arguments; by others, who, without going so far, believe in the apologetical expediency of trying to persuade rather than convince men to be Theists. A moderate reaction against the too rigidly mathematical intellectualism of Descartes was to be welcomed, but the Kantian reaction by its excesses has injured the cause of Theism and helped forward the cause of anti-theistic philosophy. Herbert Spencer, as is well known, borrowed most of his arguments for Agnosticism from Hamilton and Mansel, who had popularized Kantian criticism in England, while in trying to improve on Kant's reconstructive transcendentalism, his German disciples (Fichte, Schelling, Hegel) drifted into Pantheism. Kant also helped to prepare the way for the total disparagement of human reason in relation to religious truth, which constitutes the negative side of Traditionalism, while the appeal of that system on the positive side to the common consent and tradition of mankind as the chief or sole criterion of truth and more especially of religious truth -- its authority as a criterion being traced ultimately to a positive Divine revelation -- is, like Kant's refuge in practical reason, merely an illogical attempt to escape from Agnosticism.

Again, though Ontologism -- like that of Malebranche (d. 1715) -- is older than Kant, its revival in the nineteenth century (by Gioberti, Rosmini, and others) has been inspired to some extent by Kantian influences. This system maintains that we have naturally some immediate consciousness, however dim at first, or some intuitive knowledge of God -- not indeed that we see Him in His essence face to face but that we know Him in His relation to creatures by the same act of cognition -- according to Rosmini, as we become conscious of being in general -- and therefore that the truth of His existence is as much a datum of philosophy as is the abstract idea of being.

Finally, the philosophy of Modernism -- about which there has recently been such a stir -- is a somewhat complex medley of these various systems and tendencies; its main features as a system are:

negatively, a thoroughgoing intellectual Agnosticism, and positively, the assertion of an immediate sense or experience of God as immanent in the life of the soul -- an experience which is at first only subconscious, but which, when the requsite moral dispositions are present, becomes an object of conscious certainty.

Now all these varying types of Theism, in so far as they are opposed to the classical and traditional type, may be reduced to one or other of the two following propositions:

that we have naturally an immediate consciousness or intuition of God's existence and may therefore dispense with any attempt to prove this truth inferentially;

that, though we do not know this truth intuitively and cannot prove it inferentially in such a way as to satisfy the speculative reason, we can, nevertheless, and must conscientiously believe it on other than strictly intellectual grounds.

But an appeal to experience, not to mention other objections, is sufficient to negative the first proposition -- and the second, which, as history has already made clear, is an illogical compromise with Agnosticism, is best refuted by a simple statement of the theistic Proofs. It is not the proofs that are found to be fallacious but the criticism which rejects them. It is true of course -- and no Theist denies it -- that for the proper intellectual appreciation of theistic proofs moral dispositions are required, and that moral consciousness, the ęsthetic faculty, and whatever other powers or capacities belong to man's spiritual nature, constitute or supply so many data on which to base inferential proofs. But this is very different from holding that we possess any faculty or power which assures us of God's existence and which is independent of, and superior to, the intellectual laws that regulate our assent to truth in general -- that in the religious sphere we can transcend those laws without confessing our belief in God to be irrational. It is also true that a mere barren intellectual assent to the truth of God's existence -- and such an assent is conceivable -- falls very far short of what religious assent ought to be; that what is taught in revealed religion about the worthlessness of faith uninformed by charity has its counterpart in natural religion; and that practical Theism, if it pretends to be adequate, must appeal not merely to the intellect but to the heart and conscience of mankind and be capable of winning the total allegiance of rational creatures. But here again we meet with exaggeration and confusion on the part of those Theists who would substitute for intellectual assent something that does not exclude but presupposes it and is only required to complement it. The truth and pertinency of these observations will be made clear by the following summary of the classical arguments for God's existence.

B. THEISTIC PROOFS

The arguments for God's existence are variously classified and entitled by different writers, but all agree in recognizing the distinction between a priori, or deductive, and a posteriori, or inductive reasoning in this connection. And while all admit the validity and sufficiency of the latter method, opinion is divided in regard to the former. Some maintain that a valid a priori proof (usually called the ontological) is available; others deny this completely; while some others maintain an attitude of compromise or neutrality. This difference, it should be observed, applies only to the question of proving God's actual existence; for, His self-existence being admitted, it is necessary to employ a priori or deductive inference in order to arrive at a knowledge of His nature and attributes, and as it is impossible to develop the arguments for His existence without some working notion of His nature, it is necessary to some extent to anticipate the deductive stage and combine the a priori with the a posteriori method. But no strictly a priori conclusion need be more than hypothetically assumed at this stage.

1. A Posteriori Argument

St. Thomas (Summa Theologica I:2:3; Cont. Gent., I, xiii) and after him many scholastic writers advance the five following arguments to prove the existence of God:

Motion, i.e. the passing from power to act, as it takes place in the universe implies a first unmoved Mover (primum movens immobile), who is God; else we should postulate an infinite series of movers, which is inconceivable. For the same reason efficient causes, as we see them operating in this world, imply the existence of a First Cause that is uncaused, i.e. that possesses in itself the sufficient reason for its existence; and this is God. The fact that contingent beings exist, i.e. beings whose non-existence is recognized as possible, implies the existence of a necessary being, who is God.

The graduated perfections of being actually existing in the universe can be understood only by comparison with an absolute standard that is also actual, i.e., an infinitely perfect Being such as God. The wonderful order or evidence of intelligent design which the universe exhibits implies the existence of a supramundane Designer, who is no other than God Himself.

To these many Theists add other arguments:

the common consent of mankind (usually described by Catholic writers as the moral argument),

from the internal witness of conscience to the supremacy of the moral law, and, therefore, to the existence of a supreme Lawgiver (this may be called the ethical argument, or

from the existence and perception of beauty in the universe (the aesthetical argument).

One might go on, indeed, almost indefinitely multiplying and distinguishing arguments; but to do so would only lead to confusion.

The various arguments mentioned -- and the same is true of others that might be added -- are not in reality distinct and independent arguments, but only so many partial statements of one and the same general argument, which is perhaps best described as the cosmological. This argument assumes the validity of the principle of causality or sufficient reason and, stated in its most comprehensive form, amounts to this: that it is impossible according to the laws of human thought to give any ultimate rational explanation of the phenomena of external experience and of internal consciousness -- in other words to synthesize the data which the actual universe as a whole supplies (and this is the recognized aim of philosophy) -- unless by admitting the existence of a self-sufficient and self-explanatory cause or ground of being and activity, to which all these phenomena may be ultimately referred.

It is, therefore, mainly a question of method and expediency what particular points one may select from the multitude available to illustrate and enforce the general a posteriori argument. For our purpose it will suffice to state as briefly as possible
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Offline punkpianist360

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Re: For those of you who don't believe in God
Reply #4 on: December 17, 2008, 06:34:00 PM
the general argument proving the self-existence of a First Cause,

the special arguments proving the existence of an intelligent Designer and of a Supreme Moral Ruler, and

the confirmatory argument from the general Consent of mankind.

(a) The general causality argument

We must start by assuming the objective certainty and validity of the principle of causality or sufficient reason -- an assumption upon which the value of the physical sciences and of human knowledge generally is based. To question its objective certainty, as did Kant, and represent it as a mere mental a priori, or possessing only subjective validity, would open the door to subjectivism and universal scepticism. It is impossible to prove the principle of causality, just as it is impossible to prove the principle of contradiction; but it is not difficult to see that if the former is denied the latter may also be denied and the whole process of human reasoning declared fallacious. The principle states that whatever exists or happens must have a sufficient reason for its existence or occurrence either in itself or in something else ; in other words that whatever does not exist of absolute necessity - whatever is not self-existent -- cannot exist without a proportionate cause external to itself; and if this principle is valid when employed by the scientist to explain the phenomena of physics it must be equally valid when employed by the philosopher for the ultimate explanation of the universe as a whole. In the universe we observe that certain things are effects, i.e. they depend for their existence on other things, and these again on others; but, however far back we may extend this series of effects and dependent causes, we must, if human reason is to be satisfied, come ultimately to a cause that is not itself an effect, in other words to an uncaused cause or self-existent being which is the ground and cause of all being. And this conclusion, as thus stated, is virtually admitted by agnostics and Pantheists, all of whom are obliged to speak of an eternal something underlying the phenomenal universe, whether this something be the "Unknown", or the "Absolute", or the "Unconscious", or "Matter" itself, or the "Ego", or the "Idea" of being, or the "Will"; these are so many substitutes for the uncaused cause or self-existent being of Theism. What anti-Theists refuse to admit is not the existence of a First Cause in an indeterminate sense, but the existence of an intelligent and free First Cause, a personal God, distinct from the material universe and the human mind. But the very same reason that compels us to postulate a First Cause at all requires that this cause should be a free and intelligent being. The spiritual world of intellect and free will must be recognized by the sane philosopher to be as real as the world of matter; man knows that he has a spiritual nature and performs spiritual acts as clearly and as certainly as he knows that he has eyes to see with and ears to hear with; and the phenomena of man's spiritual nature can only be explained in one way -- by attributing spirituality, i.e. intelligence and free will, to the First Cause, in other words by recognizing a personal God. For the cause in all cases must be proportionate to the effect, i.e. must contain somehow in itself every perfection of being that is realized in the effect.

The cogency of this argument becomes more apparent if account be taken of the fact that the human species had its origin at a comparatively late period in the history of the actual universe. There was a time when neither man nor any other living thing inhabited this globe of ours; and without pressing the point regarding the origin of life itself from inanimate matter or the evolution of man's body from lower organic types, it may be maintained with absolute confidence that no explanation of the origin of man's soul can be made out on evolutionary lines, and that recourse must be had to the creative power of a spiritual or personal First Cause. It might also be urged, as an inference from the physical theories commonly accepted by present-day scientists, that the actual organization of the material universe had a definite beginning in time. If it be true that the goal towards which physical evolution is tending is the uniform distribution of heat and other forms of energy, it would follow clearly that the existing process has not been going on from eternity; else the goal would have been reached long ago. And if the process had a beginning, how did it originate? If the primal mass was inert and uniform, it is impossible to conceive how motion and differentiation were introduced except from without, while if these are held to be coeval with matter, the cosmic process, which is ex hypothesi is temporal, would be eternal, unless it be granted that matter itself had a definite beginning in time.

But the argument, strictly speaking, is conclusive even if it be granted that the world may have existed from eternity, in the sense, that is, that, no matter how far back one may go, no point of time can be reached at which created being was not already in existence. In this sense Aristotle held matter to be eternal and St. Thomas, while denying the fact, admitted the possibility of its being so. But such relative eternity is nothing more in reality than infinite or indefinite temporal duration and is altogether different from the eternity we attribute to God. Hence to admit that the world might possibly be eternal in this sense implies no denial of the essentially finite and contingent character of its existence. On the contrary it helps to emphasize this truth, for the same relation of dependence upon a self-existing cause which is implied in the contingency of any single being is implied a fortiori in the existence of an infinite series of such beings, supposing such a series to be possible. Nor can it be maintained with Pantheists that the world, whether of matter or of mind or of both, contains within itself the sufficient reason of its own existence. A self-existing world would exist of absolute necessity and would be infinite in every kind of perfection; but of nothing are we more certain than that the world as we know it, in its totality as well as in its parts, realizes only finite degrees of perfection. It is a mere contradiction in terms, however much one may try to cover up and conceal the contradiction by an ambiguous and confusing use of language, to predicate infinity of matter or of the human mind, and one or the other or both must be held by the Pantheist to be infinite. In other words the distinction between the finite and the infinite must be abolished and the principle of contradiction denied. This criticism applies to every variety of Pantheism strictly so called, while crude, materialistic Pantheism involves so many additional and more obvious absurdities that hardly any philosopher deserving of the name will be found to maintain it in our day. On the other hand, as regards idealistic Pantheism, which enjoys a considerable vogue in our day, it is to be observed in the first place that in many cases this is a tendency rather than a formal doctrine, that it is in fact nothing more than a confused and perverted form of Theism, based especially upon an exaggerated and one-sided view of Divine immanence (see below, iii). And this confusion works to the advantage of Pantheism by enabling it to make a specious appeal to the very arguments which justify Theism. Indeed the whole strength of the pantheistic position as against Atheism lies in what it holds in common with Theism; while, on the other hand, its weakness as a world theory becomes evident as soon as it diverges from or contradicts Theism. Whereas Theism, for example, safeguards such primary truths as the reality of human personality, freedom, and moral responsibility, Pantheism is obliged to sacrifice all these, to deny the existence of evil, whether physical or moral, to destroy the rational basis of religion, and, under pretence of making man his own God, to rob him of nearly all his plain, common sense convictions and of all his highest incentives to good conduct. The philosophy which leads to such results cannot but be radically unsound.

(b) The argument from design

The special argument based on the existence of order or design in the universe (also called the teleological argument) proves immediately the existence of a supramundane mind of vast intelligence, and ultimately the existence of God. This argument is capable of being developed at great length, but it must be stated here very briefly. It has always been a favourite argument both with philosophers and with popular apologists of Theism; and though, during the earlier excesses of enthusiasm for or against Darwinianism, it was often asserted or admitted that the evolutionary hypothesis had overthrown the teleological argument, it is now recognized that the very opposite is true, and that the evidences of design which the universe exhibits are not less but more impressive when viewed from the evolutionary standpoint. To begin with particular examples of adaptation which may be appealed to in countless number -- the eye, for instance, as an organ of sight is a conspicuous embodiment of intelligent purpose -- and not less but more so when viewed as the product of an evolutionary process rather than the immediate handiwork of the Creator. There is no option in such cases between the hypothesis of a directing intelligence and that of blind chance, and the absurdity of supposing that the eye originated suddenly by a single blind chance is augmented a thousand-fold by suggesting that it may be the product of a progressive series of such chances. "Natural selection", "survival of the fittest", and similar terms merely describe certain phases in the supposed process of evolution without helping the least to explain it; and as opposed to teleology they mean nothing more than blind chance. The eye is only one of the countless examples of adaptation to particular ends discernible in every part of the universe, inorganic as well as organic; for the atom as well as the cell contributes to the evidence available. Nor is the argument weakened by our inability in many cases to explain the particular purpose of certain structures or organisms. Our knowledge of nature is too limited to be made the measure of nature's entire design, while as against our ignorance of some particular purposes we are entitled to maintain the presumption that if intelligence is anywhere apparent it is dominant everywhere. Moreover, in our search for particular instances of design we must not overlook the evidence supplied by the harmonious unity of nature as a whole. The universe as we know it is a cosmos, a vastly complex system of correlated and interdependent parts, each subject to particular laws and all together subject to a common law or a combination of laws as the result of which the pursuit of particular ends is made to contribute in a marvellous way to the attainment of a common purpose; and it is simply inconceivable that this cosmic unity should be the product of chance or accident. If it be objected that there is another side to the picture, that the universe abounds in imperfections -- maladjustments, failures, seemingly purposeless waste -- the reply is not far to seek. For it is not maintained that the existing world is the best possible, and it is only on the supposition of its being so that the imperfections referred to would be excluded. Admitting without exaggerating their reality -- admitting, that is, the existence of physical evil -- there still remains a large balance on the side of order and harmony, and to account for this there is required not only an intelligent mind but one that is good and benevolent, though so far as this special argument goes this mind might conceivably be finite. To prove the infinity of the world's Designer it is necessary to fall back on the general argument already explained and on the deductive argument to be explained below by which infinity is inferred from self-existence. Finally, by way of direct reply to the problem suggested by the objection, it is to be observed that, to appreciate fully the evidence for design, we must, in addition to particular instances of adaptation and to the cosmic unity observable in the world of today, consider the historical continuity of nature throughout indefinite ages in the past and indefinite ages to come. We do not and cannot comprehend the full scope of nature's design, for it is not a static universe we have to study but a universe that is progressively unfolding itself and moving towards the fulfilment of an ultimate purpose under the guidance of a master mind. And towards that purpose the imperfect as well as the perfect -- apparent evil and discord as well as obvious good order -- may contribute in ways which we can but dimly discern. The well-balanced philosopher, who realizes his own limitations in the presence of nature's Designer, so far from claiming that every detail of that Designer's purpose should at present be plain to his inferior intelligence, will be content to await the final solution of enigmas which the hereafter promises to furnish.
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Offline punkpianist360

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Re: For those of you who don't believe in God
Reply #5 on: December 17, 2008, 06:35:29 PM
(c) The argument from conscience

To Newman and others the argument from conscience, or the sense of moral responsibility, has seemed the most intimately persuasive of all the arguments for God's existence, while to it alone Kant allowed an absolute value. But this is not an independent argument, although, properly understood, it serves to emphasize a point in the general a posteriori proof which is calculated to appeal with particular force to many minds. It is not that conscience, as such, contains a direct revelation or intuition of God as the author of the moral law, but that, taking man's sense of moral responsibility as a phenomenon to be explained, no ultimate explanation can be given except by supposing the existence of a Superior and Lawgiver whom man is bound to obey. And just as the argument from design brings out prominently the attribute of intelligence, so the argument from science brings out the attribute of holiness in the First Cause and self-existent Personal Being with whom we must ultimately identify the Designer and the Lawgiver.

(d) The argument from universal consent

The confirmatory argument based on the consent of mankind may be stated briefly as follows: mankind as a whole has at all times and everywhere believed and continues to believe in the existence of some superior being or beings on whom the material world and man himself are dependent, and this fact cannot be accounted for except by admitting that this belief is true or at least contains a germ of truth. It is admitted of course that Polytheism, Dualism, Pantheism, and other forms of error and superstition have mingled with and disfigured this universal belief of mankind, but this does not destroy the force of the argument we are considering. For at least the germinal truth which consists in the recognition of some kind of deity is common to every form of religion and can therefore claim in its support the universal consent of mankind. And how can this consent be explained except as a result of the perception by the minds of men of the evidence for the existence of deity? It is too large a subject to be entered upon here -- the discussion of the various theories that have been advanced to account in some other way for the origin and universality of religion; but it may safely be said that, abstracting from revelation, which need not be discussed at this stage, no other theory will stand the test of criticism. And, assuming that this is the best explanation philosophy has to offer, it may further be maintained that this consent of mankind tells ultimately in favour of Theism. For it is clear from history that religion is liable to degenerate, and has in many instances degenerated instead of progressing; and even if it be impossible to prove conclusively that Monotheism was the primitive historical religion, there is nevertheless a good deal of positive evidence adducible in support of this contention. And if this be the true reading of history, it is permissible to interpret the universality of religion as witnessing implicitly to the original truth which, however much obscured it may have become, in many cases could never be entirely obliterated. But even if the history of religion is to read as a record of progressive development one ought in all fairness, in accordance with a well-recognized principle, to seek its true meaning and significance not at the lowest but at the highest point of development; and it cannot be denied that Theism in the strict sense is the ultimate form which religion naturally tends to assume. If there have been and are today atheistic philosophers who oppose the common belief of mankind, these are comparatively few and their dissent only serves to emphasize more strongly the consent of normal humanity. Their existence is an abnormality to be accounted for as such things usually are. Could it be claimed on their behalf, individually or collectively, that in ability, education, character, or life they excel the infinitely larger number of cultured men who adhere on conviction to what the race at large has believed, then indeed it might be admitted that their opposition would be somewhat formidable. But no such claim can be made; on the contrary, if a comparison were called for it would be easy to make out an overwhelming case for the other side. Or again, if it were true that the progress of knowledge had brought to light any new and serious difficulties against religion, there would, especially in view of the modern vogue of Agnosticism, be some reason for alarm as to the soundness of the traditional belief. But so far is this from being the case that in the words of Professor Huxley -- an unsuspected witness -- "not a solitary problem presents itself to the philosophical Theist at the present day which has not existed from the time that philosophers began to think out the logical grounds and the logical consequences of Theism" (Life and Letters of Ch. Darwin by F. Darwin, II, p. 203). Substantially the same arguments as are used today were employed by old-time sceptical Atheists in the effort to overthrow man's belief in the existence of the Divine, and the fact that this belief has withstood repeated assaults during so many ages in the past is the best guarantee of its permanency in the future. It is too firmly implanted in the depths of man's soul for little surface storms to uproot it.

2. A Priori, or Ontological, Argument

This argument undertakes to deduce the existence of God from the idea of Him as the Infinite which is present to the human mind; but as already stated, theistic philosophers are not agreed as to the logical validity of this deduction. As stated by St. Anselm, the argument runs thus: The idea of God as the Infinite means the greatest Being that can be thought of, but unless actual existence outside the mind is included in this idea, God would not be the greatest conceivable Being since a Being that exists both in the mind as an object of thought, and outside the mind or objectively, would be greater than a Being that exists in the mind only; therefore God exists not only in the mind but outside of it.

Descartes states the argument in a slightly different way as follows: Whatever is contained in a clear and distinct idea of a thing must be predicated of that thing; but a clear and distinct idea of an absolutely perfect Being contains the notion of actual existence; therefore since we have the idea of an absolutely perfect Being such a Being must really exist.

To mention a third form of statement, Leibniz would put the argument thus: God is at least possible since the concept of Him as the Infinite implies no contradiction; but if He is possible He must exist because the concept of Him involves existence. In St. Anselm's own day this argument was objected to by Gaunilo, who maintained as a reductio ad absurdum that were it valid one could prove by means of it the actual existence somewhere of an ideal island far surpassing in riches and delights the fabled Isles of the Blessed. But this criticism however smart it may seem is clearly unsound, for it overlooks the fact that the argument is not intended to apply to finite ideals but only to the strictly infinite; and if it is admitted that we possess a true idea of the infinite, and that this idea is not self-contradictory, it does not seem possible to find any flaw in the argument. Actual existence is certainly included in any true concept of the Infinite, and the person who admits that he has a concept of an Infinite Being cannot deny that he conceives it as actually existing. But the difficulty is with regard to this preliminary admission, which if challenged -- as it is in fact challenged by Agnostics -- requires to be justified by recurring to the a posteriori argument, i.e. to the inference by way of causality from contingency to self-existence and thence by way of deduction to infinity. Hence the great majority of scholastic philosophers have rejected the ontological argument as propounded by St. Anselm and Descartes nor as put forward by Leibniz does it escape the difficulty that has been stated.
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Offline punkpianist360

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Re: For those of you who don't believe in God
Reply #6 on: December 17, 2008, 06:37:16 PM
II. AS KNOWN THROUGH FAITH

("THE GOD OF REVELATION")

A. Sacred Scriptures

Neither in the Old or New Testament do we find any elaborate argumentation devoted to proving that God exists. This truth is rather taken for granted, as being something, for example, that only the fool will deny in his heart [Ps. xiii (xiv), 1; lii (liii), 1]; and argumentation, when resorted to, is directed chiefly against polytheism and idolatry. But in several passages we have a cursory appeal to some phase of the general cosmological argument: v.g. Ps. xviii (xix), 1, xciii (xciv), 5 sqq., Is., xli, 26 sqq.; II Mach., vii, 28, etc.; and in some few others -- Wis. xiii, 1-9; Rom., i, 18,20 -- the argument is presented in a philosophical way, and men who reason rightly are held to be inexcusable for failing to recognize and worship the one true God, the Author and Ruler of the universe.

These two latter texts merit more than passing attention. Wis., xiii, 1-9 reads:

But all men are vain in whom there is not the knowledge of God: and who by these good things that are seen, could not understand him that is, neither by attending to the works have acknowledged who was the workman: but have imagined either the fire, or the wind, or the swift air or the circle of the stars, or the great water, or the sun and moon, to be the gods that rule the world. With whose beauty, if they, being delighted, took them to be gods: let them know how much the Lord of them is more beautiful than they: for the first author of beauty made all those things. Or if they admired their power and effects, let them understand by them that he that made them, is mightier than they: for by the greatness of the beauty, and of the creature, the creator of them may be seen, so as to be known thereby. But yet as to these they are less to be blamed. For they perhaps err, seeking God, and desirous to find him. For being conversant among his works, they search: and they are persuaded that the things are good which are seen. But then again they are not to be pardoned. For if they were able to know so much as to make a judgment of the world: how did they not more easily find out the Lord thereof?

Here it is clearly taught

that the phenomenal or contingent world -- the things that are seen -- requires a cause distinct from and greater than itself or any of its elements;

that this cause who is God is not unknowable, but is known with certainty not only to exist but to possess in Himself, in a higher degree, whatever beauty, strength, or other perfections are realized in His works, that this conclusion is attainable by the right exercise of human reason, without reference to supernatural revelation, and that philosophers, therefore, who are able to interpret the world philosophically, are inexcusable for their ignorance of the true God, their failure, it is implied, being due rather to lack of good will than to the incapacity of the human mind.

Substantially the same doctrine is laid down more briefly by St. Paul in Romans 1:18-20:

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and injustice of those men that detain the truth of God in injustice: because that which is known of God is manifest in them. For God hath manifested it unto them. For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, his eternal power also and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.

It is to be observed that the pagans of whom St. Paul is speaking are not blamed for their ignorance of supernatural revelation and the Mosaic law, but for failing to preserve or for corrupting that knowledge of God and of man's duty towards Him which nature itself ought to have taught them. Indeed it is not pure ignorance as such they are blamed for, but that wilful shirking of truth which renders ignorance culpable. Even under the corruptions of paganism St. Paul recognized the indestructible permanency of germinal religious truth (cf. Romans 2:14-15).

It is clear from these passages that Agnosticism and Pantheism are condemned by revelation, while the validity of the general proof of God's existence given above is confirmed. It is also clear that the extreme form of Traditionalism, which would hold that no certain knowledge of God's existence or nature is attainable by human reason without the aid of supernatural revelation, is condemned.

B. Church Councils

What the author of Wisdom and St. Paul and after them the Fathers and theologians had constantly taught, has been solemnly defined by the Vatican Council. In the first place, as against Agnosticism and Traditionalism, the council teaches (cap. ii, De revelat.)

that God, the first cause (principium) and last end of all things, can, from created things, be known with certainty by the natural light of human reason (Denz., 1785-old no. 1634)

and in the corresponding canon (can. i, De revelat.) it anathematizes anyone who would say

that the one true God our Creator and Lord, cannot, through the things that are made, be known with certainty by the natural light of human reason (Denz., 1806-old no. 1653).

As against Agnosticism this definition needs no explanation. As against Traditionalism, it is to be observed that the definition is directed only against the extreme form of that theory, as held by Lamennais and others according to which -- taking human nature as it is -- there would not, and could not, have been any true or certain knowledge of God, among men, had there not been at least a primitive supernatural revelation -- in other words, natural religion as such is an impossibility. There is no reference to milder forms of Traditionalism which hold social tradition and education to be necessary for the development of man's rational powers, and consequently deny, for example, that an individual cut off from human society from his infancy, and left entirely to himself, could ever attain a certain knowledge of God, or any strictly rational knowledge at all. That is a psychological problem on which the council has nothing to say. Neither does it deny that even in case of the homo socialis a certain degree of education and culture may be required in order that he may, by independent reasoning, arrive at a knowledge of God; but it merely affirms the broad principle that by the proper use of their natural reasoning power, applied to the phenomena of the universe, men are able to know God with certainty. In the next place, as against Pantheism, the council (cap. i, De Deo) teaches that God, "since He is one singular, altogether simple and incommutable spiritual substance, must be proclaimed to be really and essentially [re et essentia) distinct from the world most happy in and by Himself, and ineffably above and beyond all things, actual or possible, besides Himself" (Denzinger, 1782-old no. 1631); and in the corresponding canons (ii-iv, De Deo) anathema is pronounced against anyone who would say "that nothing exists but matter"; or "that the substance or essence of God and of all things is one and the same"; or "that finite things both corporeal and spiritual, or at least spiritual, have emanated from the Divine substance; or that the Divine essence by a manifestation or evolution of itself becomes all things; or that God is universal or indefinite being, which by determining itself constitutes the universe of things distinguished into genera, species and individuals" (Denzinger, 1802-4; old no. 1648).

These definitions are framed so as to cover and exclude every type of the pantheistic theory, and nobody will deny that they are in harmony with Scriptural teaching. The doctrine of creation, for example, than which none is more clearly taught or more frequently emphasized in Sacred Scripture, is radically opposed to Pantheism -- creation as the sacred writers understand it being the voluntary act of a free agent bringing creatures into being out of nothingness.

C. The Knowability of God

It will be observed that neither the Scriptural texts we have quoted nor the conciliar decrees say that God's existence can be proved or demonstrated; they merely affirm that it can be known with certainty. Now one may, if one wishes, insist on the distinction between what is knowable and what is demonstrable, but in the present connection this distinction has little real import. It has never been claimed that God's existence can be proved mathematically, as a proposition in geometry is proved, and most Theists reject every form of the ontological or deductive proof. But if the term proof or demonstration may be, as it often is, applied to a posteriori or inductive inference, by means of which knowledge that is not innate or intuitive is acquired by the exercise of reason, then it cannot fairly be denied that Catholic teaching virtually asserts that God's existence can be proved. Certain knowledge of God is declared to be attainable "by the light of reason", i.e. of the reasoning faculty as such from or through "the things that are made"; and this clearly implies an inferential process such as in other connections men do not hesitate to call proof.

Hence it is fair to conclude that the Vatican Council, following Sacred Scripture, has virtually condemned the Scepticism which rejects the a posteriori proof. But it did not deal directly with Ontologism, although certain propositions of the Ontologists had already been condemned as unsafe (tuto tradi non posse) by a decree of the Holy Office (18 September, 1861), and among the propositions of Rosmini subsequently condemned (14 December, 1887) several reassert the ontologist principle. This condemnation by the Holy Office is quite sufficient to discredit Ontologism, regarding which it is enough to say here

that, as already observed, experience contradicts the assumption that the human mind has naturally or necessarily an immediate consciousness or intuition of the Divine,

that such a theory obscures, and tends to do away with, the difference, on which St. Paul insists (1 Corinthians 13:12), between our earthly knowledge of God ("through a glass in a dark manner") and the vision of Him which the blessed in heaven enjoy ("face to face") and seems irreconcilable with the Catholic doctrine, defined by the Council of Vienne, that, to be capable of the face to face or intuitive vision of God, the human intellect needs to be endowed with a special supernatural light, the lumen gloriae and finally that, in so far as it is clearly intelligible, the theory goes dangerously near to Pantheism.
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Offline punkpianist360

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Re: For those of you who don't believe in God
Reply #7 on: December 17, 2008, 06:37:53 PM
In the decree "Lamentabili" (3 July, 1907) and the Encyclical "Pascendi" (7 September, 1907), issued by Pope Pius X, the Catholic position is once more reaffirmed and theological Agnosticism condemned. In its bearing on our subject, this act of Church authority is merely a restatement of the teaching of St. Paul and of the Vatican Council, and a reassertion of the principle which has been always maintained, that God must be naturally knowable if faith in Him and His revelation is to be reasonable; and if a concrete example be needed to show how, of logical necessity, the substance of Christianity vanishes into thin air once the agnostic principle is adopted, one has only to point the finger at Modernism. Rational theism is a necessary logical basis for revealed religion; and that the natural knowledge of God and natural religion, which Catholic teaching holds to be possible, are not necessarily the result of grace, i.e. of a supernatural aid given directly by God Himself, follows from the condemnation by Clement XI of one of the propositions of Quesnel (prop. 41) in which the contrary is asserted (Denzinger, 1391; old no. 1256).

Publication information Written by P.J. Toner. Transcribed by Tomas Hancil. The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume VI. Published 1909. New York: Robert Appleton Company. Nihil Obstat, September 1, 1909. Remy Lafort, Censor. Imprimatur. +John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York



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Arguments for the Existence of God
Personal Thoughts By the Editor of BELIEVE
In general, BELIEVE does NOT contain any of MY thoughts or opinions, because BELIEVE is intended so as to present only the best scholarly authorities on religious subjects. However, after 14 years of this presentation ending here, including nine years on the Internet, I see it as potentially useful to include my own thoughts here. A reader needs to evaluate whether there is any value or not.


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First, Logical Reverse Reasoning
A person is certainly free to decide whether the Bible has any value or not. A central issue in that matter is usually regarding whether God "inspired" the Bible's human authors. Consider the possibilities.
IF a person does NOT think that God inspired the Bible, or that God doesn't even actually exist, then the Book would seem to have very limited value, and it would certainly not deserve to be the central focus of Faith.

On the other hand, if one accepts the idea that God participated in inspiring the Bible, it becomes an important Book. Technically, there would still be three possibilities to consider.


If God inspired the Bible, and it is all absolutely and precisely true (in its Original language and the Original Manuscripts) and accurate, then we should carefully pay attention to every detail of it. Traditionally, this has always been the case for both Christians and Jews.

If God inspired the Bible, but He is Evil, then it is likely to nearly all be untrue and deceptive. However, no accepted concept of God would see that as possible of Him.

If God inspired the Bible, but it Originally contained both Truths and untruths, and it contained inaccuracies or distortions, this appears to be the only possible assumption of those Christians who feel they can freely select the parts of the Bible they want to obey. (Many thousands of researchers have compared the more than 20,000 existing Scribe-written Manuscripts to ensure that we accurately know the Original text.) If God is even remotely as Powerful and Considerate and Compassionate as we believe Him to be, would He intentionally include such faults in the Book He provided us as a Guide? Or, could He be so sloppy as to unintentionally include such flaws in it?

For this last matter, it seems impossible that the God we know and Worship would be either intentionally deceptive or incompetent. For, if He was, then the consistency and reliability of our Universe would be an unexpected and unintentional effort of His. When you step out the door of your house, you might fall into a bottomless pit, rather than stepping out on the sidewalk that you know is there.
For these reasons, it seems inappropriate to feel that a person could pick and choose various parts of the Bible to accept and obey. If you accept ANY of it as being valid and valuable, then you are implicitly accepting that God participated in its creation. And if God participated in the Bible being composed, that seems to necessarily imply that ALL of it was Originally precisely correct and accurate, in its Original language.

These observations do not make such claims regarding any specific modern Bible translation. Given that we see the inconsistencies between various translated Versions, we should certainly be somewhat cautious at totally accepting any one of them. Either use two or more different Bible Versions in your studies, or have a Strongs handy, or both! As long as you can get to an understanding of what the Original texts said and meant, you will have the true meaning!
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Offline punkpianist360

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Re: For those of you who don't believe in God
Reply #8 on: December 17, 2008, 06:38:24 PM
whoever is up to reading this, go ahead



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Offline thalbergmad

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Re: For those of you who don't believe in God
Reply #9 on: December 17, 2008, 06:48:09 PM
I never thought i would see the day when someone outdid pianistimo for shite.

Congratulations.

Thal
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Offline G.W.K

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Re: For those of you who don't believe in God
Reply #10 on: December 17, 2008, 06:50:51 PM
I never thought i would see the day when someone outdid pianistimo for shite.

Congratulations.

Thal

LOL, had you not realised Paul? Everyone (except obsessed fans of pianistimo's preaching) is tired of hearing arguments for/against the entity known as God. There are countless threads littering this forum regarding religion...and with the other two that are currently active: it is clear people are tired.

And, why the need to copy/paste such long posts?

G.W.K
When I'm right, no one remembers. When I'm wrong, no one forgets!

Offline punkpianist360

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Re: For those of you who don't believe in God
Reply #11 on: December 17, 2008, 06:51:33 PM
Dear Thal,

I encourage you to read before stating opinion.  It is quite interesting, so please, read, and then come back to me.

Sincerely,
PunkPianist360
Formerly PMZ310


Inspire, be Inspired, and Aspire.


https://www.musicbymyles.com

Offline punkpianist360

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Re: For those of you who don't believe in God
Reply #12 on: December 17, 2008, 06:53:11 PM
LOL, had you not realised Paul? Everyone (except obsessed fans of pianistimo's preaching) is tired of hearing arguments for/against the entity known as God. There are countless threads littering this forum regarding religion...and with the other two that are currently active: it is clear people are tired.

And, why the need to copy/paste such long posts?

G.W.K

The difference here is that this is reliable, and not radical.  This is scholar material, not just some obsessed religious person.


Punk.
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Offline thalbergmad

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Re: For those of you who don't believe in God
Reply #13 on: December 17, 2008, 06:54:38 PM
OK, i will read it.

I will come back to you sometime in April.

Thal
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Offline G.W.K

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Re: For those of you who don't believe in God
Reply #14 on: December 17, 2008, 06:56:12 PM
I will come back to you sometime in April.

It is too long. It's basically "Information Overload"...unless someone is really bored, they would probably read it in installments.

G.W.K
When I'm right, no one remembers. When I'm wrong, no one forgets!

Offline richard black

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Re: For those of you who don't believe in God
Reply #15 on: December 17, 2008, 07:59:20 PM
The usual circular arguments. So is there any point in believing in a deity?
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Offline cmg

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Re: For those of you who don't believe in God
Reply #16 on: December 17, 2008, 08:19:43 PM
The usual circular arguments. So is there any point in believing in a deity?

John Keats, who witnessed horrible suffering among family members, and his own torture and death from TB, had the best argument I've heard.  Paraphrased, he felt that human suffering was so extreme that the only way to understand it was to believe that a God would reward us ultimately.   This may be delusional, of course, and not logical, but it's probably why most people need to believe.

Aside from that, I think the arguments summarized by punkpianist in the above posts are the classic scholarly ones and well worth reading.  It ain't spam.  And I thank him for his trouble.
Current repertoire:  "Come to Jesus" (in whole-notes)

Offline minor9th

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Re: For those of you who don't believe in God
Reply #17 on: December 17, 2008, 08:27:31 PM
  It ain't spam. 

At least spam can be used for making a sandwich.

"God is dead"--Nietzsche

Offline cmg

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Re: For those of you who don't believe in God
Reply #18 on: December 17, 2008, 08:41:32 PM
At least spam can be used for making a sandwich.

"God is dead"--Nietzsche

And the famous response is "Nietzsche is dead"--God
Current repertoire:  "Come to Jesus" (in whole-notes)

Offline pianowolfi

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Re: For those of you who don't believe in God
Reply #19 on: December 17, 2008, 09:09:44 PM
And the famous response is "Nietzsche is dead"--God

Offline shortyshort

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Re: For those of you who don't believe in God
Reply #20 on: December 17, 2008, 09:18:46 PM
And I thank him for his trouble.

A little copy and paste, lol.

A few.
If God really exists, then why haven't I got more fingers?

Offline shortyshort

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Re: For those of you who don't believe in God
Reply #21 on: December 17, 2008, 09:20:57 PM
 Kind and paternal man who ate little aside from mashed potato and passionately loved his dog.
· I admit, I was fascinated by Adolf Hitler. He was a pleasant boss and a fatherly friend. I deliberately ignored all the warning voices inside me and enjoyed the time by his side almost until the bitter end.
· It wasn't what he said, but the way he said things and how he did things. Such things included his modest appetite, and the way he ate only side dishes - always avoiding meat.
· Hitler's greatest pleasure was when (sheepdog) Blondie would jump a few centimetres higher than the last time, and he would say that going out with his dog was the most relaxing thing he could do.
· "Are you well rested, my child?" Hitler asked. "I have something to dictate to you."
- Traudl Junge, Hitler's secretary (2)

· "Nobody is bad all their life. Hitler was charming, humoristic, and a very good mimic. He used to do imitations of actresses and King Victor Emmanuel by moving his upper lip like a rabbit's."
· Hitler enjoyed telling jokes about the British. "He particularly liked Colonel Blimp jokes, not sex or political ones. He always talked nicely about England - he never wanted to endanger it."
· Hitler was handsome, particularly in the morning. "His face used to change as the day went on because of the drugs he took to help him sleep. But in the morning his eyes were big and wonderful deep blue."
· Hitler had "beautiful eyes" and was a "perfectly nice person".
- Reinhard Spitzy, who deserted the Nazis to become a member of the German resistance, worked with Hitler in Austria after he had annexed the country in 1938. (1)

· "Sweetest love, favorite of my heart, my one and only, my dearest, my truest and hottest beloved," one of the letters begins. "I could kiss you a thousand times and still not be satisfied. My love for you is endless, so tender, so hot and so complete."
· The letters are addressed to "My beloved Fuhrer," "My darling sugar- sweet AdoIf," or simply, "Dear Adi."
· "I am making you keys to my front door and my room," wrote one woman. "We have to be very careful. So come early, ring my landlady's bell and ask if I'm at home. If everything works out, my parents (they could be your in-laws) say you can come any time, so we can spend the night together at my parents' house!"
- Love Letters to Adolf Hitler from german women, discovered from the destroyed Chancellery (3)

· British prime minister Stanley Baldwin pays tribute to Hitler as "a remarkable man" who made "great achievements".
· "Like you, I acknowledge (Hitler's) great achievements since taking over that troubled country. The German people obviously love him, even if that love puts a burden on them both and is not extended to the Jews who are tormented."
- 1936 Letter of British prime minister Stanley Baldwin (4)

· Hitler's authority was extraordinary. He was always polite and charming. There was really nothing to object to.
· Hitler was fond of (Goebbels) children, and drank hot chocolate with them and allowed them to use his bathtub.
- Erna Flegel, Nurse in Hitler's Bunker 1945 (5)

· "After visiting these two places you can easily see how that within a few years Hitler will emerge from the hatred that surrounds him now as one of the most significant figures who ever lived. He had boundless ambition for his country, which rendered him a menace to the peace of the world, but he had a mystery about him in the way that he lived and in the manner of his death that will live and grow after him. He had in him the stuff of which legends are made."
- John F. Kennedy, in his Post-War diary, as quoted in Prelude to Leadership (pages 73-74, last two paragraphs). (8)

· When Hugh Trevor-Roper was asked: "Do you consider Hitler consciously evil? Did he know what he was doing was wrong?" His answer was an emphatic No: Hitler was convinced of his own rectitude. Although his deeds reached an extreme of awfulness, he committed them in the deluded belief that they were right.
- Historian Hugh Trevor-Roper, who In 1945 was ordered by the British government to investigate Hitler's death (6)

· Hitler wanted only the best for Germany, though he made some mistakes.
- General Heinz Guderian, author of "Achtung - Panzer!", in 1950 (7)

· "Hitler was also an individual of great courage, a soldier's soldier in the Great War, a political organizer of the first rank, a leader steeped in the history of Europe, who possessed oratorical powers that could awe even those who despised him...Hitler's success was not based on his extraordinary gifts alone. His genius was an intuitive sense of the mushiness, the character flaws, the weakness masquerading as morality that was in the hearts of the statesmen who stood in his path."
- Pat Buchanan, in a 1977 column discussing John Toland's biography of Hitler (8)

If God really exists, then why haven't I got more fingers?

Offline mikey6

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Re: For those of you who don't believe in God
Reply #22 on: December 17, 2008, 11:15:11 PM
Why?  just WHY?!!!!
If I ever start a forum, whoever starts a religious topic will be banned!  And yes, I AM catholic!
Never look at the trombones. You'll only encourage them.
Richard Strauss

Offline shortyshort

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Re: For those of you who don't believe in God
Reply #23 on: December 17, 2008, 11:23:35 PM
Why?  just WHY?!!!!
If I ever start a forum, whoever starts a religious topic will be banned!  And yes, I AM catholic!

What will your forum be on??
If God really exists, then why haven't I got more fingers?

Offline punkpianist360

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Re: For those of you who don't believe in God
Reply #24 on: December 17, 2008, 11:28:59 PM
Why?  just WHY?!!!!
If I ever start a forum, whoever starts a religious topic will be banned!  And yes, I AM catholic!

I am Catholic too!!!
Inspire, be Inspired, and Aspire.


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Offline timothy42b

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Re: For those of you who don't believe in God
Reply #25 on: December 17, 2008, 11:29:37 PM
punk,

How would you test for God's existence?

Your own thoughts, please, not spam from somebody else's web site.  

Are you aware that the Roman Catholic church long ago adopted the official position that you could not prove God by logic?  
Tim

Offline mikey6

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Re: For those of you who don't believe in God
Reply #26 on: December 17, 2008, 11:33:46 PM
I am Catholic too!!!
My problem was that this forum gets bogged down with so much religious debate when I don't see why it can't be each to his own without trying to force their beliefs on others!  There's nothing wrong with faith and there's nothing wrong with non-believers if that's how they choose to live their lives!
What will your forum be on??
Religious influences in Politics ;D
Never look at the trombones. You'll only encourage them.
Richard Strauss

Offline michel dvorsky

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Re: For those of you who don't believe in God
Reply #27 on: December 18, 2008, 12:10:00 AM
The topic starter doesn't seem to understand the difference between proof and argument. The topic starter also doesn`t seem to understand the purpose of argument. 

Argument doesn't involve indiscriminately copying and pasting the words of others.
Argument involves using your intelligence to build and defend a case.

You`ve neither proven anything nor argued in favor of anything.

If you are prepared to put in the effort to conduct an actual argument, we will too.

Best wishes.

"Sokolov did a SH***Y job of playing Rachmaninoff's 3rd Piano Concerto." - Perfect_Pitch

Offline morningstar

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Re: For those of you who don't believe in God
Reply #28 on: December 18, 2008, 12:33:41 AM
OK. However shameful it may be, I read the whole thing.
Paul, while it is mildly interesting, people generally don't like to read such long blocks of text. Break it up a bit and people might be happier with it. I assume you haven't been here since pianistimo came back or you would know better by now.
Think that's it I'm not saying anything on the religious side.

Offline G.W.K

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Re: For those of you who don't believe in God
Reply #29 on: December 18, 2008, 04:49:59 PM
OK. However shameful it may be, I read the whole thing.
Paul, while it is mildly interesting, people generally don't like to read such long blocks of text. Break it up a bit and people might be happier with it. I assume you haven't been here since pianistimo came back or you would know better by now.
Think that's it I'm not saying anything on the religious side.

No, pmz310 hasn't been here since Pianistimo returned.

G.W.K
When I'm right, no one remembers. When I'm wrong, no one forgets!

Offline punkpianist360

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Re: For those of you who don't believe in God
Reply #30 on: December 18, 2008, 05:57:25 PM
No, pmz310 hasn't been here since Pianistimo returned.

G.W.K

My name is punkpianist360 thank you very much.
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Offline shortyshort

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Re: For those of you who don't believe in God
Reply #31 on: December 18, 2008, 06:03:33 PM
My name is punkpianist360 thank you very much.

You told us your name was "Paul"?
If God really exists, then why haven't I got more fingers?

Offline G.W.K

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Re: For those of you who don't believe in God
Reply #32 on: December 18, 2008, 08:51:58 PM
My name is punkpianist360 thank you very much.

You're welcome. But to me, you'll always be remembered as pmz310. Especially after the little tantrum you threw in the Chat because everyone was avoiding you by going into locked rooms. ;)

As you say however, clean slate...:P

G.W.K
When I'm right, no one remembers. When I'm wrong, no one forgets!

Offline richard black

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Re: For those of you who don't believe in God
Reply #33 on: December 18, 2008, 11:54:44 PM
Quote
John Keats, who witnessed horrible suffering among family members, and his own torture and death from TB, had the best argument I've heard.  Paraphrased, he felt that human suffering was so extreme that the only way to understand it was to believe that a God would reward us ultimately.

Fair enough, I can see where that's a good reason to believe in an afterlife. I still don't concede that it necessitates all the worship gubbins.
Instrumentalists are all wannabe singers. Discuss.

Offline redbaron

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Re: For those of you who don't believe in God
Reply #34 on: December 19, 2008, 05:36:52 PM
Let's keep the filth of religion of the keys shall we...?  >:(

Offline tanman

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Re: For those of you who don't believe in God
Reply #35 on: December 20, 2008, 01:05:15 PM
MORE RELIGIOUS DEBATES!!!  :D
Remember, imitation is the sincerest form of identity theft.

Offline term

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Re: For those of you who don't believe in God
Reply #36 on: December 20, 2008, 02:59:23 PM
Quote
If God inspired the Bible, but He is Evil, then it is likely to nearly all be untrue and deceptive. However, no accepted concept of God would see that as possible of Him.
So weird isn't it. Doesn't make any sense to me. I'll play the devils advocate and say the god according to christians, jews and muslims is a mother figure for humans with male qualities and powers. God makes sure everything's good and fine, he loves you even if you're an ass, he's the shoulder to cry on and if you have problems, pray and he'll take care of them; he'll help you defeat your enemy, make you successful, he'll give you money and he'll make sure your presidential candidate wins, he loves your country and will help your battle, he hates gays and demands that adulterers be stoned. He's totally involved in your irrelevant business or that of mankind while taking care of a gazillion galaxies, he created the world and lets the devil do his business while being good, he's all knowing and all wise but struggles with logical consistency in his holy books, he exists and is involved but never appears and never speaks but in your heart where nobody else can hear, feel or experience him, he gave you free will so that you can obey only him and he created hell so that if you *** up, you better burn forever.
"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools talk because they have to say something." - Plato
"The only truth lies in learning to free ourselves from insane passion for the truth" - Eco

Offline rc

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Re: For those of you who don't believe in God
Reply #37 on: December 21, 2008, 05:57:45 PM
I believe that proof has no place in matters of faith.  That's why we call it 'faith'!

Emerson said it well in his divinity school address:  "Meantime, whilst the doors of the temple stand open, night and day, before every man, and the oracles of this truth cease never, it is guarded by one stern condition; this, namely; it is an intuition.  It cannot be received at second hand."

No evidence against the idea of God (however we may define it), will dissuade me from my experiences...  Just like how no arguements I may offer will persuade anyone of something they've never experienced.

Offline goldentone

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Re: For those of you who don't believe in God
Reply #38 on: December 22, 2008, 08:13:58 AM
I think the number of people who have switched from not believing to believing in God from philosophical arguments is basically zero.  At best they can serve as a starting point in moving one in the direction of believing.  This is a heart issue.  For believers, philosophical arguments confirm what they already see.  For unbelievers, I think they sound hollow.  Believing or not believing in God is really the fundamental perception of life--whichever side you find yourself (and of course there are the undecided ones).  But I have a thought simmering in me of late, and it is this:  Those who believe that God does not exist necessarily also believe that it is impossible for Him to exist.
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come

Offline term

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Re: For those of you who don't believe in God
Reply #39 on: December 22, 2008, 10:41:16 AM
For unbelievers, I think they sound hollow. 
I don't think so actually. Many of the philosophers who formulated these arguments did not impose any particular concept of god upon the reader, they refer to abstract & logical reasons why there should be a god. It's just that none of these arguments make the case for the god of the holy books with all those contradictions and the mix of love & hate messages which sounds all too human.

It's quite easy to understand what science can't do: I will never explain something without another thing, as that would be a circular argument. From that follows that the things we know can only increase, but never be connected in a way that we can say this is THE one force, or law, or thing that brings about all there is in the universe, from which everything that exists spawns off. If such a thing would be found, you would call it god; or something similar to the concept of god. In science, you would have to continue to analyze and dissect it in order to find out about its nature, what its made of and what it is that creates it, ad infinitum. There can only be endless reflection without final knowledge if one does not assume the existence of something absolute and infinite, a causa prima as the theologians used to say that is not caused by something else.
This argument, i guess, is encompassed in some of the statements above. It sure convinces me, in my opinion if you think it through to the end the existence of a god is obvious, it's just the holy texts and the old notions of how god is and behaves that puts people off today. I'm sure the idea that god is just some kind of abstract entity, a force, which i guess due to the scientific world view is popular today, isn't entirely true either.
"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools talk because they have to say something." - Plato
"The only truth lies in learning to free ourselves from insane passion for the truth" - Eco

Offline 0range

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Re: For those of you who don't believe in God
Reply #40 on: December 22, 2008, 11:27:48 AM
Trying to bring up Aquinas' "proofs" as a legitimate argument is only shouting your ignorance to the world.
"Our philosophy as New Scientist is this: science is interesting, and if you don't agree, you can *** off."

Offline mephisto

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Re: For those of you who don't believe in God
Reply #41 on: December 22, 2008, 04:54:53 PM
Even if you proove the existence of a god doesn't doesn't mean that you have showed that Christianity is right. There are other religiouns like Judaism and Islam as well.

Offline general disarray

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Re: For those of you who don't believe in God
Reply #42 on: December 22, 2008, 07:29:19 PM
I believe that proof has no place in matters of faith.  That's why we call it 'faith'!

Emerson said it well in his divinity school address:  "Meantime, whilst the doors of the temple stand open, night and day, before every man, and the oracles of this truth cease never, it is guarded by one stern condition; this, namely; it is an intuition.  It cannot be received at second hand."

No evidence against the idea of God (however we may define it), will dissuade me from my experiences...  Just like how no arguements I may offer will persuade anyone of something they've never experienced.

This is the best, rc!  Experiencing that which can't be scientifically proven isn't always just "faith" however.  Buddhists experience "satori" or "kensho" through rigorous hours of  meditation employed to quiet ALL thoughts.  With that condition prevailing, a glimpse of what the religious call Eternity or God is possible.  The experience is often referred to as Enlightenment or Awakening. 

Can a Buddhist prove that what he has seen is the ineffable?  No.  Intuition, as Emerson says, tells you so.  William James in his great scientific study called "The Varieties of Religious Experience" documents people from all faiths who have "intuited" God.  It happens.  He didn't challenge it, nor disprove it.  He simply observed that it existed.

Experiencing it is like proving scientifically that you love someone:  you know the feeling is there.  You KNOW it's real.  It's beyond proof.
" . . . cross the ocean in a silver plane . . . see the jungle when it's wet with rain . . . "

Offline richard black

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Re: For those of you who don't believe in God
Reply #43 on: December 22, 2008, 09:48:10 PM
Quote
I think the number of people who have switched from not believing to believing in God from philosophical arguments is basically zero.

Good call, dude! I'm outta here.
Instrumentalists are all wannabe singers. Discuss.

Offline pianowolfi

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Re: For those of you who don't believe in God
Reply #44 on: December 22, 2008, 11:11:21 PM
my contribution to this thread:

Offline G.W.K

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Re: For those of you who don't believe in God
Reply #45 on: December 22, 2008, 11:13:56 PM
An amusing contribution. :D

G.W.K
When I'm right, no one remembers. When I'm wrong, no one forgets!

Offline thalbergmad

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Re: For those of you who don't believe in God
Reply #46 on: December 22, 2008, 11:14:27 PM
Interesting, but who is the bloke in the middle??

Thal
Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society

Offline G.W.K

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Re: For those of you who don't believe in God
Reply #47 on: December 22, 2008, 11:16:19 PM
Interesting, but who is the bloke in the middle??

Thal

The human race?

G.W.K
When I'm right, no one remembers. When I'm wrong, no one forgets!

Offline pianowolfi

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Re: For those of you who don't believe in God
Reply #48 on: December 22, 2008, 11:54:23 PM
Well they use to change their place every once in a while I guess :D

Offline goldentone

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Re: For those of you who don't believe in God
Reply #49 on: December 23, 2008, 06:26:04 AM
Interesting, but who is the bloke in the middle??

Thal



That's the popcorn guy trying to decide if he wants to eat more popcorn. ;D
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
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