For those of you who don't believe in God

[cmg]

Interesting, but who is the bloke in the middle??

Thal

Nils.

[rc]

This is the best, rc!  Experiencing that which can't be scientifically proven isn't always just "faith" however.  Buddhists experience "satori" or "kensho" through rigorous hours of  meditation employed to quiet ALL thoughts.  With that condition prevailing, a glimpse of what the religious call Eternity or God is possible.  The experience is often referred to as Enlightenment or Awakening. 

Can a Buddhist prove that what he has seen is the ineffable?  No.  Intuition, as Emerson says, tells you so.  William James in his great scientific study called "The Varieties of Religious Experience" documents people from all faiths who have "intuited" God.  It happens.  He didn't challenge it, nor disprove it.  He simply observed that it existed.

Experiencing it is like proving scientifically that you love someone:  you know the feeling is there.  You KNOW it's real.  It's beyond proof.

I'm glad you liked, sir *salutes*

I also like your last paragraph, and bringing up love. It's such a good example!

To link it back to Buddhism, my favorite difinition of love came from a buddhist: taking delight in another person.  So simple and so true.  and we know it when we feel it.  Beyond proof, such a good description!

And love goes beyond people.  Like the love we may feel for a great piece of music, or any given expression of nature.  To the right attitude, it's all so beautiful, sometimes overwhelmingly so.  It's all the same thing I would equate with God.

For the longest time, I thought love was a myth.  Now, when I talk anyone, I truly feel like the lyric from 'It's a Wonderful World' : "I see friends shaking hands, saying how do you do. They're really saying 'I love you'"

[frigo]

1. Motion exists because particles are influenced by the four fundamental forces: strong, weak, electromagnetic and gravitation that exist only between them due to their physical characteristics, If every motion can be explained by 'obsvervable' effects of this forces, why create an imaginary being that moves everything?  A particle stays at rest if no forces act on it, where's god here?

2. Of course 'nothing is caused by itself '. Our obsvervations of the universe point us to the standard cosmological model we have, that is certainly insuficient to explain all things, but is at least more suficient than atribute everything to a mythical eternal father.
   You can make all arguments yours in order to defend the existence of god, because since our idea of god is a 'created all, is perfect, knows everything, all that exists has him on its origin' idea, I can say whatever I want about forces and causes and you'll say: 'well, it was god who create those things'. We have to have the sense that not everything can be understood by our brains, they are insuficcient machines of statements, the universe certainly has observable thingsthat our thinking will not ever understand. Creating god is pure egoism, is man looking at himself with his instinct for surviving mixed with is intelligence and saying' Im really the best, something great and perfect must have been in my origin', man cannot accept the idea of being made of the same stuff that all animals and things are.

3. That's no cosmological at all. It is true that everything is not eternal, all 'physical things', as you call them. But then you state 'since time is infinite'... and what is that? It was 100 years ago that Einstein proved that matter, energy, space and time are one and the same thing. Time is subjective, there's no 'absolute time', there isn't a clock that rules all the others. Time as we humans understand it has no universal significance, time can be converted into space or energy or matter, contract or get longer, even stop, even go backwards, and this strikes our common sense. Time as we sense it would exist at the 'big bang', we have the need of an overlasting presence of time even accepting 'big bang', but that's not what universe tells us, the universe itself doesn't need overlasting time because time isn't the way we commonly sense it.

4. The 'differing degrees of qualities' that objects have, 'such as goodness', are subjective! It is humans avaluating things for the purpose of improving the way he lives! Jumping to the conclusion that the comparisons are made with a 'maximum' is another way of the egoistic sense of puting man on the center of the universe. Man states his values and qualities of things by its own desire and way of looking into things, and this statements will not influence the way things are formed. 'Goodness' is not a characteristic of things, it is a man's strategy to know better how to survive.

5. What you call 'goals', just like with the arrow, is nothing more than the forces and causes that exist by the characteristics of things, the physical laws, if you can name it. This argument of yours is in fact the same as the first.

This text you posted is actually a very good demonstration of the medieval thought, ancient and poor, lacking unity with nature.

[yuc4h]

{thousands of lines}

tl;dr

Anyways, the concept of god is so stupid that it demands no arguments for or against.

[richard black]

Frigo - it's all very well to quote physics, but that doesn't answer everything (I speak as a degree-qualified physicist). One of the 20th century's greatest physicists, Richard Feinmann, wrote towards the end of his life that 'we are slowly getting closer to understanding why, when we pick up one end of a ruler, the other end follows'. His humility wasn't false, and while the four 'fundamental' forces you name are known to exist, we haven't yet found with certainty the reasons behind them. When we do, we'll probably only find another interesting puzzle to solve....

a very good demonstration of the medieval thought, ancient and poor

Strikes me as unnecessarily patronising to the medieval thinkers!

the concept of god is so stupid that it demands no arguments for or against

I tend to agree with that one, but I'm not at all sure that said concept was quite so stupid in centuries gone by.

[a-sharp]

[Have you ever wished you'd never clicked on a thread?]

[morningstar]

[Have you ever wished you'd never clicked on a thread?]

A few times. Mostly to do with recent ones pianistimo posted in...this is on my list now though.

[G.W.K]

A few times. Mostly to do with recent ones pianistimo posted in...this is on my list now though.

Yet you keep coming back for more...

G.W.K

[frigo]

Frigo - it's all very well to quote physics, but that doesn't answer everything (I speak as a degree-qualified physicist). One of the 20th century's greatest physicists, Richard Feinmann, wrote towards the end of his life that 'we are slowly getting closer to understanding why, when we pick up one end of a ruler, the other end follows'. His humility wasn't false, and while the four 'fundamental' forces you name are known to exist, we haven't yet found with certainty the reasons behind them. When we do, we'll probably only find another interesting puzzle to solve....

Strikes me as unnecessarily patronising to the medieval thinkers!

I tend to agree with that one, but I'm not at all sure that said concept was quite so stupid in centuries gone by.

I absolutely agree with that, I'm conscient that physics does not explain everything no matter how much we want it to, I just used physics to, somehow, make some opposition to the arguments used here to prove the existence of god. I think of physics as an healthy way of thinking the universe, as a way to improve our life as society not only physically but our ideas about daily life as well. Religion has shown to me that it is an "ilness" that puts us all confronting each other, science is at least ''humanly universal'', and improves our capability of an healthy thinking about everything that comes to us. This is why I choose scientific thought, not because I think it will explain everything.

[yuc4h]

[morningstar]

Yet you keep coming back for more...

G.W.K

Only because I haven't worked out how to remove topics from my notification list yet.

[G.W.K]

Only because I haven't worked out how to remove topics from my notification list yet.

I'll tell you via PM or chat, one day.

G.W.K

[aslanov]

as i read the headers of whoever-tisimo or punk-whosits (im new to this forum so im not aware of these people), i realized that these are the ridiculous arguments for the existence of god that richard dawkins was arguing against in his God Delusion. while i read the book i thought to myself......who would use some of these ridiculous arguments........turns out punk-tisimo used them all, and then some.

good luck with your missionary work.
suggestion though: dont target atheists...people claim themselves to be atheists for a reason. most poeple who arent sure say they're agnostic, but those who think there is a greater than 50/50 chance that god doesnt exist are atheists, and those people have read enough to not be swayed by these fallacy-ridden arguments.

[thalbergmad]

(im new to this forum so im not aware of these people)

Your experience of this forum will be very much the better for remaining unaware of those particular people.

Welcome.

Thal

[G.W.K]

as i read the headers of whoever-tisimo or punk-whosits (im new to this forum so im not aware of these people), i realized that these are the ridiculous arguments for the existence of god that richard dawkins was arguing against in his God Delusion. while i read the book i thought to myself......who would use some of these ridiculous arguments........turns out punk-tisimo used them all, and then some.

good luck with your missionary work.
suggestion though: dont target atheists...people claim themselves to be atheists for a reason. most poeple who arent sure say they're agnostic, but those who think there is a greater than 50/50 chance that god doesnt exist are atheists, and those people have read enough to not be swayed by these fallacy-ridden arguments.

Congratulations! You are the first new member I have met to voice their opinions against the members who are under the idea of a God, without considering ANY other possibilities.

For future reference: punkpianist360 and pianistimo (and you only need to read other's comments to notice how...exasperated...people get with them).

G.W.K

[aslanov]

Congratulations! You are the first new member I have met to voice their opinions against the members who are under the idea of a God, without considering ANY other possibilities.

For future reference: punkpianist360 and pianistimo (and you only need to read other's comments to notice how...exasperated...people get with them).

G.W.K

well....actually i have grown up in a muslim household all my life questioning whether or not to believe in a god (allah in my case) and have always been taught by my parents to believe in him(or her) and why he exists and how they know he exists and i always found inconsistencies with almost every argument. it wasnt until recently i decided to do some reading, and being a rather scientific person (studying science) i found that in my research i could come to no other conclusion other than....why would god exist? and if he did, why would my search for knowledge and truth make him spite me. and above all else living without a god in my life is very freeing (and no, religionuts, i dont mean i feel free to commit crimes because there's no hell). on top of all those there are the usual arguments against the new and old testament, and morals, etc ,etc. i really dont wanna type it all here, and you'd probably do yourself some good by just reading the god delusion. its not a book to convert people to atheism, its a book that argues the existence of god is NOT as some people a 50/50 chance, statistically speaking it argues how the chances of gods existence is less than 50%. (but not in a mathematically way, no numbers involved or equations) just counter-arguments for all of reasons why people say religion is right and true and beneficial to society. a great read, frankly.
i myself went into reading the book thinking, this same guy who talks so snidely to people he interviews in his documentaries and makes them seem so ridiculous, i wonder how he wrote his book.

[G.W.K]

well....actually i have grown up in a muslim household all my life questioning whether or not to believe in a god (allah in my case) and have always been taught by my parents to believe in him(or her) and why he exists and how they know he exists and i always found inconsistencies with almost every argument. it wasnt until recently i decided to do some reading, and being a rather scientific person (studying science) i found that in my research i could come to no other conclusion other than....why would god exist? and if he did, why would my search for knowledge and truth make him spite me. and above all else living without a god in my life is very freeing (and no, religionuts, i dont mean i feel free to commit crimes because there's no hell). on top of all those there are the usual arguments against the new and old testament, and morals, etc ,etc. i really dont wanna type it all here, and you'd probably do yourself some good by just reading the god delusion. its not a book to convert people to atheism, its a book that argues the existence of god is NOT as some people a 50/50 chance, statistically speaking it argues how the chances of gods existence is less than 50%. (but not in a mathematically way, no numbers involved or equations) just counter-arguments for all of reasons why people say religion is right and true and beneficial to society. a great read, frankly.
i myself went into reading the book thinking, this same guy who talks so snidely to people he interviews in his documentaries and makes them seem so ridiculous, i wonder how he wrote his book.

Even though you grew up learning and following the Muslim faith and participating in ceremonies and prayers, etc that are connected with Muslims...you were still open-minded to other possibilities.

What I keep on trying to tell people (mainly pianistimo) is that you can't follow a religion so blindly...it's stupid. You should question things, take into consideration other possibilities and not be so hasty to dismiss them...which you appear to have done! You have researched your religion, you have observed other possibilities to the point that you have even questioned your beliefs. I congratulate you on your open-mindness, unlike other believers.

Members such as pianistimo who follow the Bible word-for-word are consumed in their own world. They believe that homosexuals, non-believers, satanic worshippers, etc should be all struck down without a second thought. There are many loopholes, for example: "God created everything and everyone." and yet He says gay people should all die? Didn't He create them?!? LOL

There is no point arguing any longer about this. It is a constant cycle that will never be resolved. I do not believe in a God. I believe in an afterlife and ghosts, etc...but not a God. And if no one likes that, tough luck.

G.W.K

[mrba1979]

There is no point arguing any longer about this. It is a constant cycle that will never be resolved.

G.W.K

Yes, Thank You. Come to think about it this is almost the same debate as global warming.  Show me a scientist that believes and I will show you one who believes otherwise.  Lets just say I hope its true because I do not like the cold so much.

[G.W.K]

Lets just say I hope its true because I do not like the cold so much.

Don't come to Scotland, Greenland, Norway, Sweeden, Finland, etc. then!

What about the people in the Equator? They'll burn to death. The temperature we've got the now is fine...I hope it doesn't change any more.

G.W.K

[morningstar]

Well it was 39 here today so it's a bit warm...but if you like that go for it lol

[thalbergmad]

its about 39 here as well

[morningstar]

its about 39 here as well

In Romania?
Do you guys use farenheit or celsius though.

[thalbergmad]

I don't live in Romania.

I have got enough clothes pegs as it is.

Thal

[queenrock]

I think that God is actually a giant pumpkin, and he tried to create us all to be pumpkins but failed miserably and on judgement day all the pumpkins will rejoice.

[thalbergmad]

and he tried to create us all to be pumpkins but failed miserably

He made a pretty good job with me.

Thal

[pianogirl88]

I think that God is actually a giant pumpkin, and he tried to create us all to be pumpkins but failed miserably and on judgement day all the pumpkins will rejoice.

I think....I think that you're an idiot.

EDIT:
I know you're an idiot.

[thalbergmad]

Only think?

It was one of the most sensible posts this year.

Thal

[pianogirl88]

Only think?

It was one of the most sensible posts this year.

Thal

Wait, whose was the most sensible?

[G.W.K]

Wait, whose was the most sensible?

lucylucy's...they were such words of wisdom that will probably never grace the boards of PianoStreet ever again.

G.W.K

[pianogirl88]

lucylucy's...they were such words of wisdom that will probably never grace the boards of PianoStreet ever again.

G.W.K

lucylucy's? wait, I'm lost....

[G.W.K]

lucylucy's? wait, I'm lost....

There's something new...

Read "lucylucy"'s posts...then you will realise.

G.W.K

[pianogirl88]

There's something new...

Read "lucylucy"'s posts...then you will realise.

G.W.K

Right....Such words of wisdom? Whatver you say...


LOL

[G.W.K]

Right....Such words of wisdom? Whatver you say...

It's called: being sarcastic.

G.W.K

[pianogirl88]

It's called: being sarcastic.

G.W.K

I know. 

So was my response.

[aslanov]

I know. 

So was my response.

i'd argue against that. it seems u took that comment by queenrock quite seriously. when it was obviously sarcasm, but im no pro on this topic of sarcasm

[G.W.K]

i'd argue against that. it seems u took that comment by queenrock quite seriously. when it was obviously sarcasm, but im no pro on this topic of sarcasm

She is saying that she understands that MY comments to her were sarcastic.

G.W.K

[kelly_kelly]

Yes, Thank You. Come to think about it this is almost the same debate as global warming.  Show me a scientist that believes and I will show you one who believes otherwise.  Lets just say I hope its true because I do not like the cold so much.

What?!?!? It's not the same thing at all. Global warming is happening. It's not something that requires belief. It is just there. And I hope you were just joking... otherwise I may be tempted to go into the disastrous ecological consequences of global warming, and my time could probably be better spent.

[pianistimo]

Global warming and the next ice age may well go together.  You see, we're not getting only warmer - we're also getting colder.  The oceans are actually churning those melting glaciers into their currents.  The sun cannot help you if many volcanoes decide to spew either.  There was a 'mini-ice-age' at the turn of the century wasn't there?  For quite a few years there was cold during summer.

Weather, G-d, Climate, G-d, Life Sustaining, G-d - He allows things to be or not to be.  It's not up to us to really answer that question.  After all, we could simply cease to exist.  That would not really prove whether He exists because we would be dead.

I think G-d has allowed us to manipulate our environment and pollute it - but it is interesting that He has made provision to clean it again. There are places in the prophets that mention that the 'River of Life' which will flow out of Jerusalem will flow into the oceans and everything it touches will be life sustaining again.  Zech 14:8  **Ezekiel 47:9 'wherever the river goes, every living creature that swarms will live, and there will be very many fish, once these waters reach there.  It will become fresh; and everything will live where the river goes.  People will stand fishing beside the sea from En-gedi to En-eglaim; it will be a place for spreading of nets; its fish will be of a great many kinds....'

As I see it, our most precious resource, water - is much more important than global warming in the sense that water is needed to sustain life.  We can spend a lot of money to help the environment - but water sources need protecting, too.  It used to be that water was FREE.  Now, it's a commodity like everything else.  Unpolluted water is scarce.  I believe the 'blood' that St. John saw in Revelations in the waters was the modern oil spills we have today.

[a-sharp]

Yes - the cause of the warming also causes the extremes in cold. water will be important, as soon as the warming of the ice that is cause by the extreme cold period melt and leave you & all of what we know under water. that will be fun.

[pianistimo]

But, you forget.  G-d said after the flood that He would never again flood the entire earth!  That was a promise.  Those who are Christian hold him to it.  However, he never said that the earth would endure forever in the condition it is in.  After the millenium it is said that the earth and heavens will roll up like a scroll, and in other places be completely burned up.  That is highly likely given the amount of hydrogen in the atmosphere isn't it?

The amount of continental shelf land now covered in water shows that at one point in time all the glacial waters that were frozen at the poles were holding the secrets of the last worldwide flood which DID cover the mountaintops.  They were helped by underwater fountains (now recognized as sort of blow holes in the deep oceans - and factual!) and the combination of rain and oceans rising certainly made a worldwide flood possible.

It's just a matter of time and people can determine if they can save themselves or not.  I wouldn't rely on myself to save myself from a flood, a fire, or a famine.  It's really G-d who saves.  If you believe in G-d, you believe in something further after death.  You believe that this isn't all there is.  THat's the major difference besides acknowledging sin and the need for a Savior.  Also, He holds out hope that not all will die - but that some will be changed 'in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye - at the last trumpet.'

The trumpet will sound when Jesus Christ returns because G-d likes to use music to celebrate, too.  And, He'll announce a King.  Not just 'King of the Jews' as the Romans called him - but King of KINGS, and Lord of LORDS.

[aslanov]

But, you forget.  G-d said after the flood that He would never again flood the entire earth!  That was a promise.  Those who are Christian hold him to it.  However, he never said that the earth would endure forever in the condition it is in.  After the millenium it is said that the earth and heavens will roll up like a scroll, and in other places be completely burned up.  That is highly likely given the amount of hydrogen in the atmosphere isn't it?

ON the hydrogen: no the earth will not burn up. and no there isnt much hydrogen in our atmosphere (relatively) im not an expert, but this is what i know. there is hydrogen in the outer layer of the atmosphere, but..some of that can leak into space because it can escape earth's gravity. but usually that hydrogen bonds with oxygen and creates water vapour before it can escape. so no. earth will not burn up.

Global warming and the next ice age may well go together.  You see, we're not getting only warmer - we're also getting colder.  The oceans are actually churning those melting glaciers into their currents.  The sun cannot help you if many volcanoes decide to spew either.  There was a 'mini-ice-age' at the turn of the century wasn't there?  For quite a few years there was cold during summer.

i have no idea what you are trying to say here but thats  not how global warming and the next ice age "may go well together". the amount of glacier that melts and becomes part of the ocean is nowhere near enough to change the temperature of the water. global warming and the ice age go together because of the north-atlantic current and the gulf stream. the gulf stream starts out at the equator, warm ocean water travels along the gulf stream then up north with the north atlantic current, the heat transfers off to the cold land (due to thermodynamics) then the cold water sinks....and this sort of convection style cycle as the hot water moves up and sinks down pushes the colder water already down, BACK towards the equator to heat up again. and it goes on.  there is also salt in this hot water which allows it to say warm as it enters the north because salt reduces the freezing point of the water (thats why we put salt on ice). now imagine that all the ice caps melt....the concentration of salt decreases rapidly and this warm water cannot stay warm enough to make it north.....and the cycle stops. heat stops travelling to the north and the entire north starts to drop in temperature.

stop using science to back up religion! the two DO NOT go together. scientists take the time to research and discover new things and step by step religious people use those new discoveries for their own propaganda, in a very fallacious way, as witnessed from pianistimo.

[pianistimo]

If you are not a scientist, that explains how you try to attempt to talk about hydrogen in OUR atmosphere.  I'm talking the heavens.  The non-atmosphere - if you want to call it that which is 99% or so hydrogen.

And, if you say that the oceans haven't changed temperature with huge amounts of glacier water melting into them, then you obviously aren't a scientist either.  Many have confirmed the COOLING of the oceans.  It all matters where you take the temperature of the ocean since the ocean has currents.

OK - I'm not a scientist either - but when i read material from one scientist that says 'oh, watch out - global warming' and another scientist says 'it's a bunch of bunk' - then, i can go home and do a little experiment in the bathtub of my own and create about three layers of water temperature - i could say - yes, it is entirely possible that the oceans could affect the temperature of the earth both for cold and for hot.  After all, wind currents are affected by the ocean and a lack of salinity (which happens with glaciers melting) makes the ocean cool faster, if i remember what i read alright.

Basically, some areas of the earth could be literally scorched by intense heat from the sun (which is and already has been happening) and other areas which experience earthquake and volcanoes together blocking the sun from the volcanic ash and experiencing much cold due to the sunlight being blocked. 

Just because one has faith does not mean everything they believe is fallacious.  REad the first chapter of Richard Dawkins book and attempt to link his 'thoughts' as G-d's first chapter of Genesis.  Which seems more plausible?  Even for those without G-d - Dawkins is just plain wierd.  He has a bunch of thoughts and tries to explain the origins without explaining how the food chain must work immediately after creation for ALL creation.  Not to mention how to explain the KNOWN discovery that most of our planet had the very same atmosphere at the beginning of creation as the bible mentions (a mist used to rise over all the earth and water the earth).  How does G-d know this?  He made it, He should know!  How do you know- you've only lived a few years.

What faith provides is not a reason for 'covering G-d' in case He makes a mistake - but saying 'ok, G-d I accept things as they are and know that you will send your Son to soon make it as it was at creation.  Without war.  Without hunger.  Without disease.'  What is wrong with being hopeful?  There is not one hopeful thing in Dawkins book.  It's survival of the fittest.

[pianistimo]

Say, Aslanov - what do you know about nuclear magnetic resonance and crystallographic instrumentation?  Just wondering.  With a name like aslanov - i think you're being too humble.  With all of science, though, how come it is all dedicated to war?  Or, at least the majority of it.  You know - with radiation, spy technology, etc etc.  What if it was all used towards agriculture.  Wouldn't people be a little happier for the science?

Do you know that viruses are being manipulated so that when they are let go - they kill huge portions of the population.  Why doesn't Dawkins talk about this kind of science.  Did you know that spores are also being multiplied in labs so that the Kurds will have only been a small portion of the 'grand experiment.'  Did you know that weapons of all kinds have been buried 1.5 or something meters under the ground in terrorist countries so they can dig them up and use them at the command of their leaders. 

Now, at least the bible gives hope that tanks and mortars and all will be converted to plows.  Weapons of war will be ultimately used for peaceful purposes.  What point does science have if we fight in the heavens as much as we do on the earth - or use the heavens as a 'base.'  Already the other side of the moon has been used as a sort of launch base hasn't  it?  For what?  peaceful purposes?  This is idiocy - to me.

What if people stopped trying to 'play' G-d.  It's really funny that people say 'there's no G-d' and then they try to imitate the prospect by spying on everyone and controlling everything that happens in another person's life.  Where's the joy?  Have you ever met a really happy person?  Did you enjoy being with them?  It comes when you let go of suspicions of another race or person and accept them not as another tier on the 'grades of humans' - but an equal.

[thalbergmad]

then, i can go home and do a little experiment in the bathtub of my own and create about three layers of water temperature

Great, i am sure that this experiment will go down in scientific history and will be remembered alongside Einstein & Newton.

Please do not restart your pages of Biblical/Science ignorant spamming.

We have had a break from it over Christmas and it has been rather pleasant without your drivel.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

stop using science to back up religion! the two DO NOT go together. scientists take the time to research and discover new things and step by step religious people use those new discoveries for their own propaganda, in a very fallacious way, as witnessed from pianistimo.

You are wasting your time trying to debate with her as her brainwashing does not permit her to disbelieve even one word of the entire Bible.

It is sad that her religion has turned what was probably once a very nice lady into a vicious gibbering nutcase with no respect for others that do not fit into her little thought box.

Thal

[morningstar]

Her posts now ARE an improvement over the last time however.

[thalbergmad]

They will rapidly descend into pages of spam as has happened on many previous occasions.

Does anyone really want this?

Thal

[G.W.K]

They will rapidly descend into pages of spam as has happened on many previous occasions.

Does anyone really want this?

Wishful thinking Thal. I agree with morningstar, her posts are improving slightly.

G.W.K

[thalbergmad]

It is only a matter of time before they descend into gibberish.

It is written in Judges 28/6.

Thal

[frigo]

What the hell are 'the heavens'? Where's that place that has 99% hidrogen?
 
I don't know why are we talking about global warming, weather has a so stochastic behavior that only time can say what will happen, no matter what we say.

Well, if Bible is quoted, why don't we quote 'Hucleberry Finn'? Or 'Moby Dick'? At least they are better literature than the bible, they even have more action...  

Pianistimo - 'why is all science, or at least the majority of it, dedicated to war'  
This makes me laugh... The wars taking place now are just a kind of 'modern crusade' that persons like Bush (who says that talks to god...) made possible...

So refreshing, this kind of religion, that made islam being sinonymous of terrorism, that permited the existence of the Inquisition that killed millions of people, that inspired persons like hitler to make all those things... I'm so hopefull with this religion!

The Vatican holds the major fortune in the world, and though every year the church and the bible apeals people to be kind with poor people, and to end with the suffering in Africa, so refreshing this hypocrisy! You're truly in the good way pianistimo!!