For those of you who don't believe in God

[aslanov]

If Jesus Christ was not raised, the term Christos would not belong to Him.  It is interesting that the name has stuck all through history.  Perhaps history is good to record actual events after all!?  So...back to Dawkins.  Does he care about genealogies or histories?  That is scientific proof in the sense that many are witnesses of the death and ressurrection and many were actually ressurrected back to life at the exact time Jesus is said to have breathed his last.  Matt. 27:51-52:

prove those claims.
keeping in mind eye-witness acounts, arent proof
bible verse, arent proof
some slack-jawed idiot at your church is not proof
neither is your local priest, or religious figure.
proof is research, papers, theories supported by the general scientific community.
even the current pope admits his belief of evolution.
and pope john paul the 2nd. especially pope john paul the 2nd.

[aslanov]

Matthew 9:6 calls him 'the Son of Man' again - but also proclaims Him as the only one with authority on earth to forgive sins.  John 5:19 is where Jesus Himself explains his own relationship to G-d the Father.  'Truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner...For just as the Father raises the dead (raised Jesus Christ) and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes.  For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgement to the Son....'

This is quite fair since Jesus Christ had to live as a human being on this earth.  Much more reasonable than unreasonable, wouldn't you say?

no. no its not. its not even funny.

[thalbergmad]

This is quite fair since Jesus Christ had to live as a human being on this earth.  Much more reasonable than unreasonable, wouldn't you say?

Very reasonable.

Born a human, lived a human and died a human.

Thanks

Thal

[pianistimo]

How then, does the disciple Stephen (after the death of Christ) witness Him standing there and recognize Him?  The apostle John also writes of this same ressurrected Christ as replacing the 'usurper' and reigning in righteousness over a restored earth.

You can simply disbelieve, and I can believe - but the thing is that many people don't know that they are losing out on a large piece of information without G-d.  If G-d is a Father to us all - then why do we worry about imperfections in others?  Even our own fathers.  Everything takes on a different perspective.  One that is much LESS judgemental.  You may say 'more' - but I say 'less.'

Do you know that Bathsheba's son is listed in the lineage because Jesus Christ saw fit to include those that society called sinners or misfits.  Also, Ruth (she was a Moabitess, remember!) - as the wife of Boaz and later grandfather of David.  So many people come from different lineages - but with Jesus Christ something new happens.  We are suddenly connected again not with Dna but with the appearance of the Holy Spirit.  It is life giving in a different manner.

[thalbergmad]

How then, does the disciple Stephen (after the death of Christ) witness Him standing there and recognize Him?  The apostle John also writes of this same ressurrected Christ as replacing the 'usurper' and reigning in righteousness over a restored earth.

There are other possibilities other than ressurrection.
 
1. He did not die on the cross. It was a spiritual death not a physical one.
2. The Gospels are incorrect, edited or badly translated and are saying what MAN wanted them to say.

You have no proof.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

You can simply disbelieve, and I can believe - but the thing is that many people don't know that they are losing out on a large piece of information without G-d.  If G-d is a Father to us all - then why do we worry about imperfections in others?  Even our own fathers.  Everything takes on a different perspective.  One that is much LESS judgemental.  You may say 'more' - but I say 'less.'

I do not entirely disbelieve, but unlike you i have the ability to question. I do not take the Bible at 100% accuracy as you do and this is where we differ.

You do not have the ability to think outside of your book and this is why many of your posts are purely Biblical quotes and say absolutely nothing.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

If G-d is a Father to us all - then why do we worry about imperfections in others?  

Why do you worry?

Your posts acheive nothing apart from giving Christianity a bad name and you proove nothing.

If you are prepared to stop, i will stop, but if you continue, i will counter your every step.

Thal

[pianistimo]

The Holy Spirit is the greatest witness of the ressurrection of Jesus Christ because it could not come without Jesus having ascended to heaven.  'And these signs shall accompany those who have believed:  in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with tongues (understanding to people of different languages); they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it shall not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.'

Now, people today don't even believe there are demons let alone angels and G-d.  So...how can they believe when they don't even know if they are of the spirit of Satan or of G-d?  How should Satan cast out Satan.  He doesn't want to clean his own house.  But, if you are able to see with the 'night vision' of the Holy Spirit - you acknowledge the birth, crucifixion, death, and ressurrection of Jesus Christ by the things you see today!  Not everyone sees all of this all the time.  It might be personal miracles in your own life.  You know they are supernatural or something out of the ordinary and unexplainable.  Other times, they can be used as intercessory prayer for someone else.  Many prayers are answered - just as the bible says the 'prayers of the righteous avail much.'  We are not righteous.  G-d makes us righteous.

You cannot be convinced of the ressurrection - but the Romans were so worried they paid some to 'cover it up.'  Of course, they didn't all write about it.  The reason they killed Jesus was because He was bringing a different form of government.  But, they didn't let on they were fearful of many people following him instead of the rulers of the time.

And, then, there are earthquake records.  There was a huge earthquake and it tore the veil just as spoken in the bible - and is recorded in Josephus.  Much in Josephus explains it - but why not take Jesus own disciples as a reference, too.  They were contemporaries, you know - and several of their ossuaries have been located.  Nobody seems to doubt the disciples actually lived and their names are recorded.

What makes people disbelieve the bible and believe a book like 'the Origins of Life.'  Hmmm.  What makes one book above another?

and PS if judgement is entirely according to either 'the book of life' which allows us to accept Jesus Christ's payment in our stead - or our own works judged according to the bible (the other books) with noone paying our 'ransom' - then it's not really something you need to worry about today.  Or...do you?  After you're dead - what are you going to do.  Say, oh, it's true.  I change my mind.  What if it's too late.  Then, will you think I am friend or foe?

[thalbergmad]

The Holy Spirit is the greatest witness of the ressurrection of Jesus Christ because it could not come without Jesus having ascended to heaven.  'And these signs shall accompany those who have believed:  in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with tongues (understanding to people of different languages); they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it shall not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.'

Fairy stories.

Why don't you drink some deadly poison and test this nonsense out??

Thal

[thalbergmad]

You cannot be convinced of the ressurrection - but the Romans were so worried they paid some to 'cover it up.'  Of course, they didn't all write about it.  The reason they killed Jesus was because He was bringing a different form of government.  But, they didn't let on they were fearful of many people following him instead of the rulers of the time.

It is handy for you that they did not write about it then, how convenient for you. What nonsense. "they didn't let on", that is hilarious.

Jesus was crucified for sedition as were countless others. They had no more to fear jesus than any other of the zealots they murdered.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

And, then, there are earthquake records.  There was a huge earthquake and it tore the veil just as spoken in the bible - and is recorded in Josephus.  Much in Josephus explains it - but why not take Jesus own disciples as a reference, too.  They were contemporaries, you know - and several of their ossuaries have been located.  Nobody seems to doubt the disciples actually lived and their names are recorded.

Was not Josephus a Zealot that defected to the Romans to save his own skin?

Would you trust such a man and his writings?

I would personally read him with some suspicion.

As for the Disciples, i don't think they could write and i do not remember seeing any accurate first hand recordings of their experiences.

Thal

[pianistimo]

Explain the calendar then (back to square one).

This is a thread 'for you who don't believe in G-d' - but you have provided no proof for his NON-existence.  I think it is actually up to you to prove that He doesn't exist.  By doing that - you could...attempt to live forever.

You see - i think this earth is somewhat like a 12 inch ruler.  It's not the end all of measurements.  But if a ruler would actually be a better analogy of a person's life - you see the 12 inch part now until your death - and then you suddenly stop measuring time and enter eternity when granted eternal life.

[thalbergmad]

After you're dead - what are you going to do.  Say, oh, it's true.  I change my mind.  What if it's too late.  Then, will you think I am friend or foe?

I have not yet made any plans for after my death. I do not know what will happen and neither do you. I believe in a God, but i question the authority and accuracy of the Bible. I have no need to change my mind on my death bed.

I do not think you are friend or foe, just another human being that inhabits the same planet as i do.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

This is a thread 'for you who don't believe in G-d' - but you have provided no proof for his NON-existence.  I think it is actually up to you to prove that He doesn't exist.  By doing that - you could...attempt to live forever.

If this is a thread for those who don't believe in God, what are you doing here?. In fact what am i doing here?

The onus is on YOU to proove, but you come up with nothing but babble and endless bible quotes.

You speak much, but say nothing.

As i said before, if you shut up, so will i and peace will reign.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

You see - i think this earth is somewhat like a 12 inch ruler. 

I think it is like a giant ball myself.

I have got something that is 12 inches.

Thal

[pianistimo]

You are among many - as you say - (many denominations latelY), that only believe a portion of the bible true.  But, the bible itself - which is inspired by the Holy Spirit - says 'all scripture is given for doctrine, reproof, and instruction in righteousness.'  

So...even if you take the most dismal story or unbelievable 'fairytale' - and consider that G-d is momentously able to create with a Word anything he wishes - then you could also believe His power much more by the unusual than the ordinary.

[thalbergmad]

You are among many - as you say - (many denominations latelY), that only believe a portion of the bible true.  But, the bible itself - which is inspired by the Holy Spirit - says 'all scripture is given for doctrine, reproof, and instruction in righteousness.'  

Might have been inspired by the Holy Spirit, but not written by the Holy Spirit. Written by man with all his weaknesses and hidden agendas.

Thal

[pianistimo]

99% of it is probably straight from aramaic -unless you have some fancy breed of bible.  I'm not going to strong's concordance every time i see the word 'the.'

(i'm just teasing with you - but i understand your concern.  wish i could help - but i'm not a scholar, as i said).  I think you just need another drink and try reading the scriptures again.

[thalbergmad]

So...even if you take the most dismal story or unbelievable 'fairytale' - and consider that G-d is momentously able to create with a Word anything he wishes - then you could also believe His power much more by the unusual than the ordinary.

I do believe God can do anything he wishes, but i don't consider the Bible to have the monopoly on th truth.

It is not God i have a problem with, it is Jesus.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

99% of it is probably straight from aramaic -unless you have some fancy breed of bible.  I'm not going to strong's concordance every time i see the word 'the.'

Mine is in English unfortunately, so i have to rely on the accuracy of the translators.

Just one word that is wrong can change a whole meaning.

Thal

[pianistimo]

Why?  What has He done to you?  A lot of people get angry because their prayers aren't answered right away.  I'm  not sure exactly where you are coming from.  You don't want to pray to him because you don't think His mother was a virgin? 

Well, I can't convince you to believe.  After all, my son is sort of doubtful too.  Jesus own disciple Thomas didn't think he was ressurrected until he saw Him again after death.  Perhaps there is hope for slackers.  *I say this tongue in cheek as i don't think you are a 'slacker' - just teasing you. 

OK.  Let's take it from the view 'there's a G-d - but there's no Jesus' - ok.  What do we do?  Go back to animal slaughter?  Blood  has it's place - but typically it's at death.  If even the Egyptians slaughtered things for the gods - what was the point?  To appease the 'god.'  A bunch of slaves might go down with a Pharoah  when he passed on.  Now, if it all has no sense - why did blood ever become involved with sacrifice?  And, why think about an afterlife.  What use was that old blanket anyways?

[thalbergmad]

He has done nothing to me, but i prefer to love him as a human being and a great teacher.

I very rarely prey for myself, it is 99% for others.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Well, I can't convince you to believe. 

I am afraid that your posts do the complete opposite.

Thal

[pianistimo]

How can they do the complete opposite when you never professed to believe in the first place?  All i'm doing is just quoting scripture.  You obviously haven't 'seen the light.'  I don't think it is my place to send you up a mountain for guidance.

You know you have a perfect right to believe whatever you want.  Have I ever said otherwise?  I'm just saying 'don't come whining to me when your stuck in the wrong line in the afterlife.'  Unless of course, we are both stuck in the wrong line.  Then, it should be all your fault.

[thalbergmad]

OK.  Let's take it from the view 'there's a G-d - but there's no Jesus' - ok.  What do we do?  Go back to animal slaughter? 

I see no need to go back to anything.

Just because i doubt that jesus was the son of God, does not mean i cannot live my life according to his teaching. Neither does it make me a blood thirst pagan.

Thal

[pianistimo]

Did i say you were a bloodthirsty pagan?  Jack the Ripper probably didn't even know what he was doing.  It is a curiousity of mine of how much evil affects people vs. their own brains.  I mean - is it 50/50 or with really evil is it 100%.  Then whose fault is it?  Was Eve 100% under the influence when she ate the apple.  But, of course, she couldn't have been...since childbirth was a punishment to her.  So...let's give her the benefit of the doubt for looking at the apple.  Perhaps the first thing is in the mind, then the heart, then the spirit?

[thalbergmad]

How can they do the complete opposite when you never professed to believe in the first place?  All i'm doing is just quoting scripture.  You obviously haven't 'seen the light.'  I don't think it is my place to send you up a mountain for guidance.

You do a lot more than quote scripture.

Indeed, it is not your place. I think a man should find his own path.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

You know you have a perfect right to believe whatever you want.  Have I ever said otherwise? 

No, but you have diminshed those that don't believe what you do.

[aslanov]

it is not god or jesus i have the problem with.
its people like you. who propagate lies, and bull.

this is true because the writing that claims it says its true.
well thats an odd change.

funny story actually
i remember reading this one book called *insert any book that makes claims or theories* and that same book said in itself. please, do not believe anything this book claims, its complete nonsense.
oh wait...that never happens. because usually these books are written for a reason.

but you dont believe every book that says believe whats written in this book because this book said that whats written in this book is true (this book.)

pianistimo. i say this will all the respect you deserve (which i may add isnt much)
you are not remotely objective, intellectual, reasonable, logical, open-minded, and free-thinking as need to be have a debate like this. because when anyone argues with you, they cant get a word in. because the whole time all they can do is correct EVERYTHING you say. because everything you say is false. you take bits and pieces of science combine it with your beliefs and boom! you got yourself a pile of sh*t. and on top of that, the science u combine it with isnt even true. either because u chose to warp it, or used scientific claims made ages go.
like i said before, prove your claims. apparently you didnt read my guidelines below it that said what cant be used as proof. and you decided to completely ignore them and continued to say, tis true because this twat was there and says he saw it. thats just ridiculous.
gravity is real because this apostle, named stupid-french connection UK, saw it with his own eyes. it was like chains attached to every particle in existence pulling stuff down to earth.

I'm just saying 'don't come whining to me when your stuck in the wrong line in the afterlife.'  Unless of course, we are both stuck in the wrong line.  Then, it should be all your fault.

wat if jesus is the wrong lord? what then!? will u be in the wrong line? how do you choose?! so many choices! AAHHH! judaism, christianity, NO WAIT, islam. what about buddhism? NO?! ok i got it, hinduism. or maybe scientology??! screw that im going back to original when all these writings happend. ALL HAIL APOLLO!

P.S. This Book.

[pianistimo]

Diminished them?  To a place.  I can't diminish anyone to any place.  After all - we're not in the afterlife yet.  And, what if i end up in the same place?  My certainty is only when He says I'm approved.  I could always trip at the finish line (G-d forbid).

I think it is you, Alslanov, that is not accepting of others.  I don't even know you. Why should i correct your views?  I am merely stating what I believe vs. what some say Christians believe.  If you don't agree - why does that make you hostile.  I am not being hostile to you.

And, why do you think you are superior?  Because you are more intelligent.  What makes a person who is supposedly more intelligent superior to a person stuck in a padded white room?  Control is what government is all about.  Tell me how much you love control.

You can worship any way you want.  If you are after results - worship the one TRUE G-d. There is only one.  He is the G-d of all of us.  You can prove me otherwise - but I don't think the 'gods' would get along and therefore I prefer the one to many.

Jesus said that the proof of his disciples learning his ways was that they would love one another  - as He had shown love to them.  To serve them and that the least would be the greatest.  OK.  there is a dillemma here with other religions that profess that only those who believe (pick a religion) should even LIVE!  Christ never taught that.

[thalbergmad]

It is a curiousity of mine of how much evil affects people vs. their own brains.  I mean - is it 50/50 or with really evil is it 100%. 

I believe there is evil and good in all of us and i admit that sometimes i have to battle so that the good triumphs.

To my shame this does not always happen when talking to you.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Diminished them?  To a place.  I can't diminish anyone to any place.  After all - we're not in the afterlife yet.  And, what if i end up in the same place?  My certainty is only when He says I'm approved.  I could always trip at the finish line (G-d forbid).

You once said "try a religion that works".

I thought that was a nasty thing to say knowing that their are others here that follow different religions.

Thal

[pianistimo]

Elijah didn't.  He said to the prophets of Baal - ok - let's try a little experiment.  The same thing happened with Simon Peter Magus and Saint Peter.  Simon Magus died three days after attempting to fly (he forgot Jesus never mentioned that was one of the gifts of the Spirit).

Give me something in your life to pray about Thal.  And, for that matter - you too Aslanov.  Something you're worried about or something that you need healing for.  I'll pray and you tell me what happens.  Honestly.  No hiding anything, alright!

Remember, this isn't my doing.  It's a promise from G-d.  Anyone who follows Jesus Christ's words cannot fail.  That's why there is confidence and we are 'soldiers.'  The soldier part is not for killing and maiming.  It is for life and healing.

[thalbergmad]

You have a way of winding people up. Your last post is meaningless.

I am going to bed now. Some of us have to work.

Thal

[pianistimo]

Why?  Are you afraid that G-d is real?

OK.  To make this expression of belief a little stronger - ANYONE who needs prayers about anything in their life (make sure it is something you really are worried about or need healing from and is not something made up) - list it here.  I will pray for a month for all of you.  Then, everyone come back after a month and list what happened.  Alright?

[aslanov]

Elijah didn't.  He said to the prophets of Baal - ok - let's try a little experiment.  The same thing happened with Simon Peter Magus and Saint Peter.  Simon Magus died three days after attempting to fly (he forgot Jesus never mentioned that was one of the gifts of the Spirit).

Give me something in your life to pray about Thal.  And, for that matter - you too Aslanov.  Something you're worried about or something that you need healing for.  I'll pray and you tell me what happens.  Honestly.  No hiding anything, alright!

i can be honest right?
this is no joke. im not trying to be funny, or mean

i want people all over the world to wake up, and realize the truth.
i want people to question everything. i want people to think for themselves, and stop spreading things they hear to the more vulnerable of minds. i want religious institutions to stop taking advantage of those who are in need of comfort and help.

thats just a few. there's more. but right now its all i can think of. make that happen please. funny thing is we can make this happen and we dont need a god for it, or a religion.

and now, as i promised before but never kept it, i will only mock the following comments by you evangelists.

Why?  Are you afraid that G-d is real?

if he's so awesome, why should we be afraid. because of our pursuit of knowledge? because in our pursuit we find that he's not real?

[pianistimo]

You asked for proof.  I am giving you proof not from eons ago - but today.  Ask me something that is bothering you in your life.  Just let me show you by living proof that G-d is on His throne.  Not by books and methods of science.

After all, if you told me to go and do an experiment (if i had all the supplies) - i probably would.  Knowledge that is limited to this world is physical.  There is also spiritual.

[aslanov]

You asked for proof.  I am giving you proof not from eons ago - but today.  Ask me something that is bothering you in your life.  Just let me show you by living proof that G-d is on His throne.  Not by books and methods of science.

After all, if you told me to go and do an experiment (if i had all the supplies) - i probably would.  Knowledge that is limited to this world is physical.  There is also spiritual.

see. no. thats just not true.
i promised to mock. so..

[pianistimo]

What good is mocking to proof.  It is a simple thing I am asking.  Not something difficult.  And, it is for your benefit.  So, why do you mock in the first place.  You have nothing to lose - unless you ask for something you don't really need.  If you have a sincere need - why not pray or ask for prayer.  The worst that can happen is that your prayer is not answered.  But, if it is - and I don't know where you live, what your needs are, and how the prayer can be met - could it be that G-d knows?  That G-d is supreme and is above all.  That G-d can hear humans and actually cares.

[aslanov]

your absolutely right.

[pianistimo]

About what?  That you secretly know G-d does exist and can answer prayer and that is why you are scared to ask for something?  I mean it's been 10 minutes and nobody has asked for a thing.  Don't ask for a million dollars, now.  Just ask for something that is medium-sized and not monetarily related unless you are destitute and need some cash quickly. 

I'm talking something that has been bothering you, or a situation that you don't know what to do about and need guidance, or a specific healing.  Perhaps something that if it is answered would provide to you evidence for supernatural events to occur in the average human life.

To choose wisely would mean something that has bothered you for the last three months to a year or more.  

[G.W.K]

Pianistimo: why do you insist continuing? You know you're fighting a losing battle. You will never convince us or be able to prove anything. It is just an endless argument. You say something, we say you have no proof, you say something else, we say you have no proof, you say more...etc. You believe in God, fair enough. I do not and others here either don't believe in God or some other part of religion.

It is an endless cycle. So please, give it a rest.

G.W.K

[aslanov]

i did ask for something. in post in response to pianio girl or whoever.
that absolutely right thing was just me mocking you. and no im not afraid. if i was afraid of god it would be preeeetttyyy damn stupid for me to insult and deny his existence. in faaaacct....if i was afraid of god. i'd due exactly what your doing. beyond all my logic and reasoning i'd still choose to chuck science and reality out of my mind for the safety of being loved by god.

i hope taht counts as mocking too.

[pianistimo]

This experiment now goes out to those who hold out enough intellect to consider something outside their own time and space.  Someone who is 'on the fence' - and wants to report back in a month to say what happened with this prayer for them to G-d by me. 

Science was made by G-d, remember!  And, G-d can trump science.  Why don't you want to see the proof in your own life? This is a very light experiment.  You're all acting like it is heavy.

[aslanov]

your out of your god damn mind.
what an appropriate comment. its funny cause ur  mind HAS been infected and damned by the idea and belief of god. oh man, talk about clever and mocking.

[pianistimo]

It is you who mocked my intellect.  All you need to do is ask for something good.  How is that mocking?  I'm waiting.

[G.W.K]

your out of your god damn mind.

I'm surprised it took you this long to realise that. You should have seen her demented comments in another thread. Going on about "Mental Martin", etc.

G.W.K

[aslanov]

It is you who mocked my intellect.  All you need to do is ask for something good.  How is that mocking?  I'm waiting.

you'll be waiting an afterlifetime.
ZINGGGG
and yes, i am mocking your intellect. did i not make it clear enough?
p.s. this book.

[pianistimo]

Mental Martin is a friend of Thal's - not mine.  I think they're both real enough.  After all, some people don't judge others on only having all their marbles all the time.  Did you know Jesus probably would have married Mary Magdalene had he not been G-d and known of His own death ahead of time.  She was the one of whom seven demons were cast out.  Whether one is really 'mental' or just believed to be is an issue for G-d to decide.  No amount of psychiatry drugs can heal deep wounds in people who have been abused, neglected, or whatever.  And, Jesus was perceptive of this.

What i think is funny is that people who call themselves intellectuals don't follow their own rules for others. I don't see any posting of rigorous studies on anything - and rather think that some of you are only halfway through your education and really just comparing books and haven't decided on 'the book' anyways.  I mean - what ONE book can be 'the book' except the bible.  It's the only thing that has intellect beyond and above reason.  After all, G-d says 'my thoughts are not your thoughts' and His ways are above our ways.

[G.W.K]

Did you know Jesus probably would have married Mary Magdalene had he not been G-d and known of His own death ahead of time.  She was the one of whom seven demons were cast out.

I'm sure he would have invited you to the wedding.

Mary Magdalene...hmmm...wasn't she the prostitute that Jesus was knocking about with? In fact, isn't lust, etc. sinful? His Lord Himself liked to indulge in a few sinful pleasures now-and-again...after all, he was only human.

G.W.K