The 3 most difficult chopin etudes?

[winterwind888]

For you what could be the most difficult etude chopin had created?

For me. Somewhere in his last 3 etudes, Octaves, Winterwind and Ocean.

Octaves etude needs you to pick up a note on the middle finger while making continuous octaves.
Winterwind etude... hmm... make chromatic scales every 2nd note on the 3rd 4th or 5th fingers while the 1st and 2nd finger descends down on the keyboard.
Ocean etude, you would really need exchange the key places on the 1st and 5th fingers. That really could be tiring. And you play about rapid sixteenth notes that are far and your finger jump on the keyboard.

Thirds is also difficult.

For you?

[communist]

op.10 no.2 "chromatique"

op.10 no.4 in C-Sharp minor "Torrent"

op.25 no.11 "Winter wind"

[pk]

10 2 is definitely the hardest, impossibly to play in 144 like its supposed to  I hate that one 

[go12_3]

I have been thinking about this topic.....really, Etudes is mostly a study of techniques.....
And to be honest, they are ALL difficult to play, let alone to learn   unless a pianist has spent several years to learn these Etudes...

However, I have relearned 25/8, which kills my right hand pinkie(ouchy, ouch!) and then to
learn the 10/1,  (oh, my gosh!)       with that tempo in which it *supposed* to by played, 
it will take a while to master that,(I am merely a humble pianist), and the next Etude that I plan to learn will probably be the next easiest that my fingers can go without tripping up!   

Yes, I looked at 10/2 and that makes me shutter.......

best wishes,

go12_3

[pies]

a

[cherub_rocker1979]

The hardest three without a doubt are Op. 10/1, Op. 10/2 and Op. 25/6

[communist]

The hardest three without a doubt are Op. 10/1, Op. 10/2 and Op. 25/6

I disagree, op.25 no.6 is easy if you can do the thirds quickly enough. op.10 no.1 is easy once it gets in your fingers.

[cherub_rocker1979]

I disagree, op.25 no.6 is easy if you can do the thirds quickly enough. op.10 no.1 is easy once it gets in your fingers.

You are certainly in the minority, if you think Op. 10/1 and Op. 25/6 are easy.

[communist]

You are certainly in the minority, if you think Op. 10/1 and Op. 25/6 are easy.

op.25 no.6 is only easy if you can do the thirds and op.10 no.1 is only easy if you can do the arpeggios.

[ahinton]

I have been thinking about this topic.....really, Etudes is mostly a study of techniques.....
And to be honest, they are ALL difficult to play, let alone to learn   unless a pianist has spent several years to learn these Etudes...

However, I have relearned 25/8, which kills my right hand pinkie(ouchy, ouch!) and then to
learn the 10/1,  (oh, my gosh!)       with that tempo in which it *supposed* to by played, 
it will take a while to master that,(I am merely a humble pianist), and the next Etude that I plan to learn will probably be the next easiest that my fingers can go without tripping up!   :Pbest wishes,

go12_3

You are not alone is stating that they are all difficult, although quite a few pianists have claimed that, in general terms, Op. 10 tend to be somewhat more demanding than Op. 25 or the Trois Nouvelles Études. The English pianist Ronald Smith (1922-2004) was well known for having much of Chopin's friend Alkan's immensely challenging music in his repertoire, yet even in his late 70s he once told me that he was practising Chopin's Op. 10 études for a recital and how difficult they were (this after he had been performing them from time to time over almost 60 years!) - so despair not!

Best,

Alistair

[scottmcc]

op.25 no.6 is only easy if you can do the thirds and op.10 no.1 is only easy if you can do the arpeggios.

that's a kinda big if, isn't it?  I mean, playing the Alkan symphony is easy if you play all the notes at the right time...

[pk]

Yeah, those three Chopin etudes are very difficult 

op 10 no 3
L'escalier du diable
Opus Clavicembalisticum

 

[communist]

that's a kinda big if, isn't it?  I mean, playing the Alkan symphony is easy if you play all the notes at the right time...

well it takes a long time to learn (the Chopin) but once you get the thirds fast enough it is not to hard since there are very few musical challenges (if any)

[m]

For me the most difficult (and I play ALMOST all of them--I think 20 or 21) are Op.25/3 and Op.25/4, which for some reason just don't fit my hands.
Two others would be Op.25/11 (the main difficulty is just get the right tempo--I always take it hair too fast and find myself with tired hands somewhere around 3rd-4th page), and Op.10/1, which I never could play with 100% accuracy--on the stage I'd always hit at least a couple wrong notes here and there...

But the real difficulties are to play Op.10/2 straight after Op.10/1 and last 4 etudes in a row.
 
Best, M

[go12_3]

Yesterday, while I played through 25/8, in a few minutes my hands and fingers started to ache......and doing double 6ths all the way through this piece with such awkward fingering and stretching,  my small fingers got to the point of screaming.....ouch! ouchy!   I have to stop and flex my fingers.  I only play it through once and then go over some rough spots, but I am beginning to feel that Chopin's Etudes are mostly made for large hands with a span of 10.  I can only span an octave and that is comfortable.  I will definitly look for my next Etude without such awkwardness....
(by the way, I may need to to a post about that!) 

best wishes,

go12_3

[antichrist]

that's a kinda big if, isn't it?  I mean, playing the Alkan symphony is easy if you play all the notes at the right time...

Its easy to play ____, if you______

that doesnt make sense

[scottmcc]

Its easy to play ____, if you______

that doesnt make sense

pat yourself on the back, you got my point. 

[ramseytheii]

I am surprised nobody mentioned op.10 no.7, in my opinion one of the most, perhaps the most challenging etude.

It is a piece that is equally difficult to play all the notes, and to play them well (and it is probably one of the most underplayed for that reason).

Op.25 no.12 for instance may have some difficulties, but it is not hard to play the notes well, once you can play them at all.  I would have to say, generally, the same with op.25 no.11.

If you can play the notes to op.10 no.1, you will be fine.

But to shape perfectly op.10 no.7?  To make it comprehensible to a listening audience?  It is a rare skill.

Walter Ramsey

[lmpianist]

Well for me there are really two types of difficulty, that of actually training your hands to move in a certain way to produce the correct notes (one-time learning process), and that of how difficult those movements are to execute time and time again, once you've trained yourself to do them (retention/execution).  These are very different processes.  And then there's the interpretive layer on top of that, but that's another story.  For most Chopin I've learned, I've found that the first stage was, overall, much more difficult, and that the notes fit "very well under the hand."  I'm not sure how well this applies to the etudes, since I've only learned one or two.  Op. 12 no. 2 certainly fit this.

[cloches_de_geneve]

I am surprised nobody mentioned op.10 no.7, in my opinion one of the most, perhaps the most challenging etude.

But to shape perfectly op.10 no.7?  To make it comprehensible to a listening audience?  It is a rare skill.

Walter Ramsey

It is a very challenging etude without a doubt. The key is to keep wrist and forearms relaxed without sacrificing precision in the constant alternation of thirds and sixths. However, the etude is very short and there is no challenge to the left hand. Therefore, I would place it right after 10/1, 10/2, 25/6, and 25/11.

[makeanote]

(Most of them on cold mornings  )

I would have to agree with 10#2 being the top of the list:

followed by 10#1

and 25#6 (both for sheer speed value).

I have to say I've always loved the sound and feel of 10#4 - especially on a big piano

It's interesting to note that, of the difficult etudes cited in the Op 10 series, #9, #11 and #12 deal only specifically with Left Hand virtuoso technique, with #4 and #8 containing some difficult LH aspects shared with the RH. For the rest, the LH is 'along for the ride'.

Ian

[lohshuhan]

its not fair to say which are the most difficult etudes.  all are difficult in their own right.  but considering my current technical ability, the most difficult ones would be opus 10/1, 10/2, 25/10. 

25/11 is actually not as complex.  Its a real pain to figure out all those notes though. 

[imbetter]

I'm playing op.10 no.2 now and it's literally a pain to play 

[bromine]

Op.25 No. 10, Op. 25 No. 10, Op. 10 No. 10
 :>-<

[bromine]

 Chopin etude Op. 10 no. 10 Tempo 240. That will mean "Molto prestissimo" or "Prestissimo possibile". That´s really, really fast    

[orangesodaking]

Since it's obviously different for each person, for me it seems like Op. 25 No. 6 is the hardest, then Op. 10 No. 1, then Op. 10 No. 2, in that order.

[point of grace]

hardest for me:
op. 10 no. 1 of course
op. 25 no. 6
op. 25 no. 8
op. 25 no. 11
op. 10 no. 7

[nanabush]

I'd probably say the most difficult for me would be:

Op 10 #2
Op 10 #10
Op 25 #4


Any of the arpeggio ones don't bother me (Op 10 #1, #8 and #12 feel WAY easier than alot of them for my hands).  The double note ones can be approached if you practice double note scales (I did chromatic minor thirds for a week or two, and can play through 25 #6 at about 2/3 speed with proper fingering).  If you aren't too stubborn to take some time to practice the raw technique required, then when you tackle the piece, it won't be like a punch in the face when the technical challenge creeps up 

10/2 KILLS my hand because my outer fingers haven't had enough development there.  I can last about a page and a half (right hand alone) before my hand just dies.

10/10 just throws me off rhythm-wise (and it's also insanely fast).  I don't think I'd be able to really feel the rhythm (parts of this remind me of my rant on the some of the rhythm in Prokofiev sonata #3 I brought up a few months ago).  It's more of a puzzle finding the right pulses in this than it is simply playing it note for note.

25/4 is (for me) a piece that I would not want to bother playing.  I'd take octaves and arpeggios before these crazy left hand jumps that have to be so damn light and fast!

[jinfiesto]

Amongst those I've studied with, the consensus has been that 10/1, 10/2, Octaves, and Thirds are the most difficult. I think that "most" people have trouble with those. Personally, I haven't had issues with the ocean, and 25/4 I thought was one of the easier ones, although I've never performed either. 10/4 is easy-ish once you get the grouping down.

[antichrist]

10/1 not that hard

[gyzzzmo]

10/1 not that hard

10/1 is hard if you have small hands, 10/10 is easy with large hands, 10/4 is harder with large hands.

[nanabush]

25/4 officially gets my vote after spending another week trying each etude out.  I've played Rachmaninoff Op 39#6, and find the jumps in the climax are easier mostly because it's more of a percussive approach than the 'leggiero' jumps in this one.  I'd feel sick to my stomach if my teacher asked me to learn 25/4 haha

I spent some time seeing if I could get a grasp on this one, and I just simply cannot have a near light enough (or accurate enough) left hand to play 4 pages of those figures.

[ponken]

I think it varies from person to person. I have attemped some of the Chopin etudes. I think Op.10 no 2 is one of the most damanding. Etude opus 10 no 1 was very difficult for me first but once I got the technique it was not that difficult. I still can't play it fast enough though.


Edited to add: I just love all the Chopin etudes.

[sjeon]

10/2
25/4
25/11
all hard

[m2r]

Op.10 No.2
Op.10 No.4
Op.25 No.11

[pianisten1989]

I'll still go for 25/2. I have heard quite many recordnings (Cortot, Vasary and Sokoloy, among other) and not one plays the way it should. I don't know a lot about Chopin, nor his works. but I am quite sure that if he wanted it to be played as 16th note, he wouldn't have written triplets.

[stevebob]

I'll still go for 25/2. I have heard quite many recordnings (Cortot, Vasary and Sokoloy, among other) and not one plays the way it should. I don't know a lot about Chopin, nor his works. but I am quite sure that if he wanted it to be played as 16th note, he wouldn't have written triplets.

You've said this before.

I don't follow your arithmetic about sixteenth notes.  Meter is a consequence of the number of beats perceived per bar, not note values.  If you're hearing this differently from the way it was written—i.e., with a different number of primary beats in each measure—it doesn't mean anything is being played like sixteenth notes.

In any event, the assertion that everyone plays this piece incorrectly is inconceivable.  Cross-rhythms can be heard in different ways.  If you listen to Chopin's Op. 42, for example, you can hear two beats to the bar ... or three.  The ear of the listener is confounded, and I think the issue for you with 25/2 is in the way you're hearing it.

Chopin doesn't indicate any special dynamic accent for the first note of each set of right-hand triplets.  Even though they should be the primary beats of each measure, they are juxtaposed with an accompaniment in which most notes coincide with unstressed notes of the triplet groups in the right hand.  Both voices are ostinato patterns without a clear melodic structure, and the rhythm of the left hand seems to predominate.

There are things that many professionals play incorrectly in Chopin (notably ornaments, and John Petrie Dunn's definitive treatise on that topic is sadly out of print).  In this case, though, I believe they're playing exactly what's written.

[slow_concert_pianist]

I see some more farcical discussion by bigotted individuals and their opinions about difficulty . You need staggering technique to play Opus 25 No 6 and none of you have even demonstrated high technique (myself included) in the auditions room.

If you play any of Chopin's etudes 10 times the regular speed, not one of you would be able to perform it. So what of this "difficulty"? Can any of you play any etude to a point of absolute perfection.....not a single thing to be done ever? That is the importance of performance and not what is most "difficult".

[scottmcc]

slow, you should search the audition room for a performance by electrafingers of the 3rds etude.  It's pretty impressive.

actually, I'll save you the effort, here it is.  https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,31055.0.html

there are some really good pianists on this forum.  they're often drowned out by the mediocre ones.  I may not be that good, but I recognize greatness when I see it.

[pianisten1989]

I see some more farcical discussion by bigotted individuals and their opinions about difficulty . You need staggering technique to play Opus 25 No 6 and none of you have even demonstrated high technique (myself included) in the auditions room.

If you play any of Chopin's etudes 10 times the regular speed, not one of you would be able to perform it. So what of this "difficulty"? Can any of you play any etude to a point of absolute perfection.....not a single thing to be done ever? That is the importance of performance and not what is most "difficult".

Have you ever played anything to perfection?

[stevebob]

I see some more farcical discussion by bigotted individuals and their opinions about difficulty . You need staggering technique to play Opus 25 No 6 and none of you have even demonstrated high technique (myself included) in the auditions room.

If you play any of Chopin's etudes 10 times the regular speed, not one of you would be able to perform it. So what of this "difficulty"? Can any of you play any etude to a point of absolute perfection.....not a single thing to be done ever? That is the importance of performance and not what is most "difficult".

How very cheerful and inspiring—not.

Kind of sad for a reader who comes to a forum such as this expecting supportive camaderie or a sense of community and finds bitter, unhinged and inarticulate grumbling instead.

I'm generally thankful that the practice of music is a private and personal endeavor in real life.

[orangesodaking]

Slow, of course it's impossible for truly perfect performances, and there is some subjectivity to "good enough," but can we not just back away from such deep approaches and think about which three Chopin etudes for us are the most difficult?

There have been deep discussions about technique for centuries, and there will still be. I don't think we can fully solve it, primarily because we all are different. As for me, I will just keep practicing to try to become the best pianist I can!

You are correct about saying Op. 25 No. 6 takes a great amount of technique. But so does Op. 25 No. 10, Op. 10 No. 2, Op. 10 No. 1, and many others. The technique required in 25/6 may be very hard for some (like me), but others who don't have good octave technique may have just as much struggle with 25/10.

And I found that electrafingers' performance of 25/6 was great. What do you think about his comment to another PS member? "...and generally I don't think it would be a good idea to pass ideas about practicing or technique in these forums. Many things can be done through the web, but in this case I think confusion is more likely to be the outcome than any real progression. Piano technique is an extremely delicate issue which still requires an intimate one-on-one situation."

[hansscherff]

I'll still go for 25/2. I have heard quite many recordnings (Cortot, Vasary and Sokoloy, among other) and not one plays the way it should. I don't know a lot about Chopin, nor his works. but I am quite sure that if he wanted it to be played as 16th note, he wouldn't have written triplets.

Because of also what pianisten1989 already said, it is hard to hear, but i think Gilels plays them more lik the 3rds they are written in:

[evansmiley]

well the thing is.. each one is written to improve a certain aspect of playing e.g. octaves, thirds, chromatics.... so the hardest would really be personally based on what you are worst at no???

[gyzzzmo]

Because of also what pianisten1989 already said, it is hard to hear, but i think Gilels plays them more lik the 3rds they are written in:

The thing is though that (as far as i know) he wrote the left hand in triplets too wich will give the main 'beat' if you play it at presto tempo.
It is fun though to play it at slight slower speed an focus that main beat on the right hand with the triplets in mind. Indeed makes it much more of an etude than the (too) straight-foward triplets of the left hand.

[septentryon]

Does anyone already try the Brahms Study No.1: after Chopin's Etude, Op.25 No.2 ??
https://imslp.org/wiki/5_Studies,_Anh.1a/1_%28Brahms,_Johannes%29#Study_No.1:_after_Chopin.27s_Etude.2C_Op.25_No.2

I quickly dropped :-)

[nanabush]

Ugh I don't even want to look at that.  That's so intense! (I'm waiting for the quick reply saying "it's easy once you get the notes down") haha

[shaulhadar]

Chopin's etudes are all difficult, but if you need to know which are the most difficult you need to look at two aspects here: the technical difficulty, and the interpertational/emotional difficulty. Chopin's etudes were the first etudes that demanded more than technical difficulty, it demanded musical and emotional mastery to execute right.  Most of the etudes are technically demanding, but some etudes, the main idea of them is to put the technicallity aside and focus about musicality.  So in my opinion, the three most difficult etudes are:
1. op.10 no. 11 - the musical main harmony element is REALLY hard to be played right.
2. op. 10 no. 2 - this etude is more technically demanding, but it's idea is that when you overcome the technical challenge, you need to play the chromatics so smooth, that it sounds like a much simpler piece (like most of Chopin's music of course).
3. op. 25. no. 6 - the double thirds are really hard to play, the technical element is really hard.

of course there are more difficult pieces, but as a piano player that player almost all of the etudes, this is my thought about it.  I really think that when you play Chopin's music, you encounter some rough parts at the start of the learning process, and your fingers sometimes asks you if you are seriously playing this, but after you master it, the real difficulty begins, the struggle for playing a piece you master technically and putting in it the right amount of emotion, not too much and not to little.
happy etude playing, though

[richterfan1]

Op.10, No.1
Op.10 No.4(sure in 3 most difficult)
Op.25 No.6
 

[orangesodaking]

Op.10, No.1
Op.10 No.4(sure in 3 most difficult)
Op.25 No.6
 

4 is pretty hard, but what do you think of 2?

I haven't tried 4, so I wouldn't know.