Let's have another discussion about modernism!

[pies]

These threads always bring out the best in us.  Go!  Start anywhere you wish, as long as it's at least tangentially related to modernism.

[neardn]

Err...

George Perle!

[neardn]

What exactly is modernism? The Grove Dictionary of Music isn't very clear.

[birba]

Er...modernism?  Is that some sort of movement?

[n00bhippy]

umm...art progresses. its why composers everywhere are no longer writing Gregorian chant. so yes umm. that is all.

[thalbergmad]

It is the same as Beethoven but with the notes in a different order.

Thal

[weissenberg2]

Who does everyone think the best early twentieth century Russian Avant-Garde composer is?

I think it is Feinberg, followed by Mosolov than Lyatoshynsky.

[retrouvailles]

People thought Beethoven's Grosse Fugue was "modernism" when it was written, so one can claim that it started the moment that piece was composed. The term is stupid, and is thrown around far too much, along with the moniker "modernist" (I'm looking at you, Thal), despite knowing what the term actually entails or considering the piece or composer in depth. In fact, I would even argue that modernism is dying at the moment, or is already dead, judging by the composers around today. It is just that most people are so unfamiliar with what is being written today that they label everything that sounds foreign (for example, something that doesn't use techniques found in common practice music) as modernism, and sometimes is just dismissed as bad.

Who does everyone think the best early twentieth century Russian Avant-Garde composer is?

I think it is Feinberg, followed by Mosolov than Lyatoshynsky.

I wouldn't call Feinberg a Soviet avant-garde composer, nor would I call Lyatoshinsky as such. They were both rather romantic in style, despite the Scriabin-like influences, and they both remained firmly tonal. Mosolov, on the other hand, is a great candidate I think. He and Roslavets are the greatest Soviet avant-garde composers, with Roslavets a bit ahead. His Chamber Symphony just takes the cake as the best piece from that style, with the extant piano sonatas not far behind.

[n00bhippy]

ummm well yeah. modernism died a while ago, we're post modern now. and i think we're on the way out from there. just names to describe periods of art.

[retrouvailles]

ummm well yeah. modernism died a while ago, we're post modern now. and i think we're on the way out from there. just names to describe periods of art.

Well, even "post-modern" is a bit of a misnomer. It doesn't really say anything about the "period" or "style" of the composition. I don't think it is our place to put a label on what sort of music is being composed today. I would leave that to the music historians and musicologists 100 years in the future, when our recent music history can be seen in a clearer light.

[weissenberg2]

I wouldn't call Feinberg a Soviet avant-garde composer, nor would I call Lyatoshinsky as such. They were both rather romantic in style, despite the Scriabin-like influences, and they both remained firmly tonal. Mosolov, on the other hand, is a great candidate I think. He and Roslavets are the greatest Soviet avant-garde composers, with Roslavets a bit ahead. His Chamber Symphony just takes the cake as the best piece from that style, with the extant piano sonatas not far behind.

Really? I have not liked what I heard by Roslavets (piano sonatas 1, 2, & 5, some smaller works). I have never heard the chamber symphony.

[n00bhippy]

shrug. i dont make up these terms, i imagine professors and that type of people do, and according to them this is the period after modernism. I think we have shifted periods since then, and i don't think any of the PhDs have come up with a name for it yet. 21st century art will suffice for now i guess.

[retrouvailles]

shrug. i dont make up these terms, i imagine professors and that type of people do, and according to them this is the period after modernism. I think we have shifted periods since then, and i don't think any of the PhDs have come up with a name for it yet. 21st century art will suffice for now i guess.

I wouldn't listen to the PhDs of today. It isn't anyone's place today to start saying when periods end, periods begin, and what to call them. They didn't do that in periods past, so we shouldn't now. There just hasn't been enough time that has passed for what is going on today, and, as we all now, whether we like it or not, time is the deciding factor for determining which composers and/or pieces were the most instrumental in defining a period or style.

Really? I have not liked what I heard by Roslavets (piano sonatas 1, 2, & 5, some smaller works). I have never heard the chamber symphony.

The Chamber Symphony is amazing. It is perhaps a bit more accessible (but no less of a work) than the two genre-defining works by Schoenberg. I would highly recommend it to anyone who likes or hates the piano sonatas. It has a substantial piano part in it, which might make it a bit more accessible to people who don't listen to much orchestral music sans piano (or music without a piano in general).

[n00bhippy]

I wouldn't listen to the PhDs of today. It isn't anyone's place today to start saying when periods end, periods begin, and what to call them. They didn't do that in periods past, so we shouldn't now.

you are suggesting the invention of terms like the classical, baroque, and romantic to describe periods of art are new 20th century constructs?

[weissenberg2]

The Chamber Symphony is amazing. It is perhaps a bit more accessible (but no less of a work) than the two genre-defining works by Schoenberg. I would highly recommend it to anyone who likes or hates the piano sonatas. It has a substantial piano part in it, which might make it a bit more accessible to people who don't listen to much orchestral music sans piano (or music without a piano in general).

I will listen to it. How do you think the Roslavets piano sonatas compare to the Mosolov piano sonatas?

[retrouvailles]

you are suggesting the invention of terms like the classical, baroque, and romantic to describe periods of art are new 20th century constructs?

No, I am not. I am just saying that the terms didn't come when the periods were occurring.

I will listen to it. How do you think the Roslavets piano sonatas compare to the Mosolov piano sonatas?

Don't let the length of the work deter you from it. It is rather long, clocking in at around 55 minutes. It is well worth your time. As far as his sonatas go, I find them very different from each other. I don't think I can compare them. From a strictly personal perspective, though, I enjoy the Roslavets sonatas (or piano works in general) a bit more. Mosolov's work doesn't pique my interest as much.

[weissenberg2]

Don't let the length of the work deter you from it. It is rather long, clocking in at around 55 minutes. It is well worth your time. As far as his sonatas go, I find them very different from each other. I don't think I can compare them. From a strictly personal perspective, though, I enjoy the Roslavets sonatas (or piano works in general) a bit more. Mosolov's work doesn't pique my interest as much.

I also find them very different. I find them equally as interesting but I find Mosolov's more compelling.

[n00bhippy]

nod. i agree. Still, i dont think the term modernism or post modern are going anywhere, as they have already been so firmly established in the vocabulary of discussing periods of art. We are out of these periods now, of course, and I dont believe we will come up with a new one for quite some time. or maybe not shrug  

[retrouvailles]

nod. i agree. Still, i dont think the term modernism or post modern are going anywhere, as they have already been so firmly established in the vocabulary of discussing periods of art. We are out of these periods now, of course, and I dont believe we will come up with a new one for quite some time. or maybe not shrug 

Yeah, they aren't going anywhere, but they are the sort of terms that have an "expiration date" attached to them. For example, Beethoven's Grosse Fugue was considered a modernist work at the time it was written (and well into the 20th century, according to Stravinsky), but most pedestrian listeners wouldn't consider it as such today. Perhaps that will happen to many of the works today, or perhaps not. Stravinsky's Rite of Spring and George Antheil's Ballet Mécanique are still considered modernist works today, despite their 80-90 year old status. So, I wouldn't call "modernism" and "post-modernism" period titles, but rather just words from the vernacular language to attach to works one might find as such.

I also find them very different. I find them equally as interesting but I find Mosolov's more compelling.

Another Soviet avant-garde composer I really enjoy is Nikolai Obukhov (and various other transliterations). I have heard very little of his music (not much is recorded) but I was very impressed with what I have heard. I would recommend him to you or anyone else who likes this particular style.

[weissenberg2]

Another Soviet avant-garde composer I really enjoy is Nikolai Obukhov (and various other transliterations). I have heard very little of his music (not much is recorded) but I was very impressed with what I have heard. I would recommend him to you or anyone else who likes this particular style.

I will have to listen to some of his stuff. Any pieces in particular you think I should listen to?

[retrouvailles]

I will have to listen to some of his stuff. Any pieces in particular you think I should listen to?

Just whatever you can get a hold of. Jenny Lin recorded some of his music, along with other Soviet avant-garde composers (and others who aren't in that genre, such as Glière), on a disk called Preludes to a Revolution.

[weissenberg2]

Just whatever you can get a hold of. Jenny Lin recorded some of his music, along with other Soviet avant-garde composers (and others who aren't in that genre, such as Glière), on a disk called Preludes to a Revolution.

okay. Does she do a good job with them?

[retrouvailles]

okay. Does she do a good job with them?

She does a very good job with them. I would suggest any of her CDs to anyone. She is a bit of a 20th/21st century music specialist, and she plays it all very well and makes it sound enjoyable to anyone.

[n00bhippy]

it certainly will be interesting if in 50 odd years there's a new all encompassing term for this..period

[weissenberg2]

What are peoples opinions on the New Complexest movement?

[imbetter]

What are peoples opinions on the New Complexest movement?

I think "classical" music as a whole is going in an awful direction if you ask me.

[retrouvailles]

I think "classical" music as a whole is going in an awful direction if you ask me.

Just how much "classical" music from today have you heard? There is so much out there from today that it is hard to say what the direction(s) even is/are.  So, it's a good thing I'm not asking you, because with an opinion like that you obviously don't have the intellectual qualifications to answer such a question.

What are peoples opinions on the New Complexest movement?

I don't think it is anything important to the furthering of music. I don't hate it, but I regard it more as a novelty item. There are a few pieces I enjoy, but I don't think of it as anything special.

it certainly will be interesting if in 50 odd years there's a new all encompassing term for this..period

Yeah, that is what I am looking for. I would like to see some sort of continuity that some musicologist has discovered within the mess of styles and directions that people have gone in. The test of time will have weeded out many composers by then (perhaps even a good bit of the "New Complexists"), so it will no doubt be easier to pigeonhole what is going on lately (it still might never be easy to do such a thing).

[pies]

a

[lontano]

Err...

George Perle!

Hey! Straight off the tips of your fingers you bring up one of my personal favorite, but rather little-known, "modern composers". He developed a 12-tone system that actually had a modern, atonal, but generally easy to listen-to style. My composition teacher (I believe) had studied with Perle (and Crumb, Rochberg, and others), and I was quite amazed how natural his style flowed, rather than fighting with 12-tonality, Perle found a "naturalesque" sense of tonality that just seemed easy to appreciate on first hearing. His wind quintets are quite remarkable.

While stylistically quite different, there are similarities with the music of George Flynn, using tone classes that fall between the (often) harsh clashes of strict 12-tone or serialized constructs (e.g. Boulez 2nd Sonata, or Barraque's Piano Sonata), and the last remains of tonality (explored by Scriabin and friends, including early Schoenberg).

I guess what I'm rambling on about is that people interested in the roots of "modernism" should take a look at George Perle, and how he found a place for all notes, not exactly "equal rights", but properly distributed throughout a work. And blaaablaaablaaa. Good evening, friends.

L.

[lontano]

Er...modernism?  Is that some sort of movement?

Often, but not necessarily, the last movement. 

[lontano]

Really? I have not liked what I heard by Roslavets (piano sonatas 1, 2, & 5, some smaller works). I have never heard the chamber symphony.

You have time (I hope) to gather more influences that might help you appreciate the subtleties of Roslavets, Feinberg and other composers of that period. They were searching for a new voice, a denser field of musical expression that (at their time was rarely, if ever heard during their lifetimes). They composed music for the Future, and now, some 75-100 years later, they are finding an audience (small, but sure). I doubt that Jessica Simpson or Brittany Spears (or any rap/hiphop-er) will be remembered more than 20 years past their demise, and mostly by those they owed money to!). What a wasteland our children have to muddle through to find even the basic doors to the serious classical realm of music they might be studying.

So don't give up quite yet on sounds you don't appreciate, give it room to move within your sphere, and filter it out when you feel overloaded. 

Lontano

[lontano]

it certainly will be interesting if in 50 odd years there's a new all encompassing term for this..period

I suggest the most past-present, post-perfect term for the just-post-present future of musical is "pre-post infinitive progressivism". It's simple, and can span decades of futurist neo-organic conceptualistism (i.e. all art forms), before being considered "quaint".

 

[birba]

umm...art progresses. its why composers everywhere are no longer writing Gregorian chant. so yes umm. that is all.

"umm..." yes, I think I know what the word means.  I wasn't being facetious.  I've been out of the academic world for some time now.  I'd do better to "google" it, I guess!

[birba]

From what I understand, it's not even clear among the experts just exactly what years make up modernism.  Basically from l'apres-midi d'un faun up to the present.  I think these terms become clearer the farther removed we are from them. (In about 200 years, probably)

[retrouvailles]

From what I understand, it's not even clear among the experts just exactly what years make up modernism.  Basically from l'apres-midi d'un faun up to the present.  I think these terms become clearer the farther removed we are from them. (In about 200 years, probably)

I wouldn't even call that modernism. That is just the beginning of impressionism. It is hard to say exactly when modernism started, just like it is hard to say when romanticism ended. Before we can even attempt to say when modernism started, we must define what it is. Because no one can give a consistent definition of what it is, it would be stupid to say when it began. Hell, someone could argue that it began with Beethoven, like I mentioned earlier. So, my advice is just to not even try. Leave it for the experts in the future to put the labels on. Your first statement was pretty much spot on.

[thalbergmad]

What are peoples opinions on the New Complexest movement?

A group of retards trying to outdo each other for stupidity.

Thal

[ballade_1]

For me a big part of why I enjoy classical music so much is because it is able to capture emotions or tell stories so well. It's not all of music I admit, but for me that's what can make it so moving. Now I haven't listened to much 'modern' music, but from what I've heard of bits of schoenberg, I really can't see how it can express emotions in the same way. So what do people think, can twelve tone stuff be used to express love or sadness or happiness? Because if not then for me it's not the natural continuation of classical music that I want. And did people in 1800 hear Beethoven the same way people in 1920 heard Schoenberg?

That's not to say this modern stuff can't be good music, I just don't think that that's the right direction for 'classical' music. Although my opinion on music does change quickly enough, so I guess I'll see.

[indutrial]

When I started getting into New Complexity composers, I found some of the works intriguing and crazy. But after a while, it just came across as a remarkably pretentious and angsty joke.  I can't take any of Ferneyhough's music seriously.  Finnissy has some stuff I like.  Overall I think it's mostly useless and has always been mostly useless; extreme complexity that's innovate and interesting was done long ago by Stockhausen.  And composers like Flynn and some hardcore bands are more effective at creating violent music IMO.

I'm not quite comfortable with the notion that someone would purposely set out to create a heavily-complex work for the sake of complexity itself, just as much as I don't like it when a composer decides to do a work based on minimalist goals or haughty philosophical ideas. I like it much more when a work's complexities feel like the results of natural compositional development, something I personally sense in composers like Charles Wuorinen, Martin Boykan, Allen Anderson, or Elliott Carter, whose works often feel like they're further down the thread from great works of days gone by. What irks me amongst modern music fans are the people who feel the need to 'art' the sh*t out of things to the point where the music is outweighed by its own compositional programme. I don't quite have any problems with heavily-intellectual music like Xenakis' or Ferneyhough's, since in the right performers' hands (say the Arditti quartet), the music is pretty remarkable. Composers like John Cage, Christian Wolff, and Philip Glass, on the other hand, make me sick to my stomach with their gimmicky philosophical horseshit that seems more effective at filling a person's pretentiousness-gauge than affecting their sensibilities. I can't help but feel dicked when a score consists of one written sentence that says "In a situation provided with maximum amplification (no feedback), perform a disciplined action." In a case like that, you'll find me running towards the next Richard Barrett recital.

What does everyone think of something like this:

[indutrial]

Because if not then for me it's not the natural continuation of classical music that I want. And did people in 1800 hear Beethoven the same way people in 1920 heard Schoenberg?

Looking back on my life as a music listener, one thing that I'm most thankful for is a teacher I had in high school who, upon finding out about my interest in classical music, gave me a small pile of CDs that I still own to this day. Amongst them were Solti's conducting of Bartok's concerto for orchestra and several Stravinsky pieces conducted by Boulez. While it was certainly tough to penetrate on my very first listenings, I'm glad that, in a way, these composers were presented to me in a way that put them on an equal level with whatever I'd been listening to at the time (likely a selection of Beethoven and Liszt discs). Being that this was brought into my life before I knew much of anything about music theory and before I was anywhere near accomplished on any musical instrument, it headed off the whole self-questioning phase that a lot of musicians seem to go through when weighing tonal vs. not-so-tonal works in their listening/performing repertoires. To this day, I can't empathize with some peoples' needs to stratify music in terms of consonance and dissonance and to go as far as suggesting that classical music has lost its way or some bollocks of that nature. All that comes of towing that line is a bunch of non-constructive trash-talk and disrespect to pretty much thousands of meaningful musicians and composers who've decided to simply keep working instead of indulging in that kind of foolhardy debate.

[ahinton]

I wouldn't call Feinberg a Soviet avant-garde composer, nor would I call Lyatoshinsky as such. They were both rather romantic in style, despite the Scriabin-like influences, and they both remained firmly tonal. Mosolov, on the other hand, is a great candidate I think. He and Roslavets are the greatest Soviet avant-garde composers, with Roslavets a bit ahead. His Chamber Symphony just takes the cake as the best piece from that style, with the extant piano sonatas not far behind.

I'm surprised that you cite this particular work of Roslavets in this context; some of the earlier works, perhaps, but the Chamber Symphony, marvellous as indeed it is, souds to me more like Russian Schönberg - and early tonal Schönberg at that! It is, after all, a tonal piece, with a tonal centre of C minor. I find that it is sadly let down by the trite endings of its outer movements, but otherwise it's a splendid piece that should never have languished in obscurity for 70 years...

Best,

Alistair

[weissenberg2]

You have time (I hope) to gather more influences that might help you appreciate the subtleties of Roslavets, Feinberg and other composers of that period. They were searching for a new voice, a denser field of musical expression that (at their time was rarely, if ever heard during their lifetimes). They composed music for the Future, and now, some 75-100 years later, they are finding an audience (small, but sure). I doubt that Jessica Simpson or Brittany Spears (or any rap/hiphop-er) will be remembered more than 20 years past their demise, and mostly by those they owed money to!). What a wasteland our children have to muddle through to find even the basic doors to the serious classical realm of music they might be studying.

So don't give up quite yet on sounds you don't appreciate, give it room to move within your sphere, and filter it out when you feel overloaded. 

Lontano

I do appreciate the latter. It is just the former (Roslavets) I don't like. It sounds to much like late Scriabin except heavier and lesser it terms of qaulity. I will try to get a taste for his music, maybe the previously mentioned chamber symphony will get me into his music more 

[ahinton]

I do appreciate the latter. It is just the former (Roslavets) I don't like. It sounds to much like late Scriabin except heavier and lesser it terms of qaulity. I will try to get a taste for his music, maybe the previously mentioned chamber symphony will get me into his music more 

Well, there's certainly far more Schönberg than Alexander S in that Chamber Symphony, so maybe it'll work for you in ways that some of the piano music appears not to do so far...

Best,

Alistair

[pies]

Beards and modernism: is there a link?

[neardn]

Beards and modernism: is there a link?

Yes.

And this is what the Grove Music Dictionary says about Modernism

"A term used in music to denote a multi-faceted but distinct and continuous tradition within 20th-century composition. It may also refer to 20th-century trends in aesthetic theory, scholarship and performing practice. Modernism is a consequence of the fundamental conviction among successive generations of composers since 1900 that the means of musical expression in the 20th century must be adequate to the unique and radical character of the age. The appropriateness of the term to describe a coherent and discrete movement has been underscored by the currency of the word ‘postmodern’, which refers to the music, art and ideas that emerged during the last quarter of the century as a reaction to Modernism. The word ‘Modernism’ has functioned throughout the century both polemically and analytically; although it is applied loosely to disparate musical styles, what links its many strands is a common debt to the historical context from which it emerged."

[ahinton]

Yes.

And this is what the Grove Music Dictionary says about Modernism

"A term used in music to denote a multi-faceted but distinct and continuous tradition within 20th-century composition. It may also refer to 20th-century trends in aesthetic theory, scholarship and performing practice. Modernism is a consequence of the fundamental conviction among successive generations of composers since 1900 that the means of musical expression in the 20th century must be adequate to the unique and radical character of the age. The appropriateness of the term to describe a coherent and discrete movement has been underscored by the currency of the word ‘postmodern’, which refers to the music, art and ideas that emerged during the last quarter of the century as a reaction to Modernism. The word ‘Modernism’ has functioned throughout the century both polemically and analytically; although it is applied loosely to disparate musical styles, what links its many strands is a common debt to the historical context from which it emerged."

I have little patience with the term personally and Grove's "definition" of it might be argued to serve the best purpose that it can under the circumstances but I still see no connection between it and beards, Grove or no Grove, especially since such association (to which Grove make no reference, of course) would presumably cut more or less half the human race out of involvement therein either on the creative or the receiving end. What nonsense!

Best,

Alistair

[neardn]

I quoted the "definition" from Grove to entice more discussion, as it seems the discussion is directed towards defining the very ambiguous term.

I've made no attempt to claim beards and Modernism, nor Grove's dictionary, are correlated in any way. I replied "Yes" as a mere jest to further pies' post which seems only to be an arbitrary affectation associated with other threads on the forum.

You say you have little patience for the term, so do you have anything to say about the term or the quote itself?

[neardn]

Also, are you aware, good sir, you are mentioned in the Sorabji article within the Grove encyclopedia? Most interesting indeed! I wasn't aware of your prestige nor your involvement with Sorabji himself. But perhaps this is for an-other thread.

May I ask though, do you yourself possess any of Sorabji's manuscripts?

[birba]

HA!  You ARE new around here, aren't you?

[lontano]

[...del...]
 Composers like John Cage, Christian Wolff, and Philip Glass, on the other hand, make me sick to my stomach with their gimmicky philosophical horseshit that seems more effective at filling a person's pretentiousness-gauge than affecting their sensibilities. I can't help but feel dicked when a score consists of one written sentence that says "In a situation provided with maximum amplification (no feedback), perform a disciplined action." In a case like that, you'll find me running towards the next Richard Barrett recital.

What does everyone think of something like this:

It may not appear obvious at first, but if all you are looking for in the music of John Cage is "music", you have missed the point. He sought to open peoples minds up to hearing more than the performance of notes on a page as music. 4'33" is the first and most concise example. The work you quote above, 0'00" (for Yoko Ono), is an amplified extension, allowing improvisation of any sort - music is not mentioned, simply a disciplined act - and, yes, it is absurdest. It is also at the heart of his Zen approach to releasing the mind from the strict, structured world of absolute music, and allow oneself to hear the music of life all around you. That philosophic spin is what I find most important in the work of Cage. Sure, he wrote a lot of music. Some of it is silly, campy "crap" (like the "Water Walk" clip), but he did write some very interesting and worthwile music that will remain in the repertoire for a long time to come. That's my opinion, at least.

Lontano

[pies]

a