Riddle Game 4 and up

[ayahav]

Not born in Poland....

Not French...

And yes: longer than 5 minutes.

[liszmaninopin]

Schumann Fantasy in C?

(just a wild hunch)

[ayahav]

not at all.

[liszmaninopin]

is the composer german?

is he italian?

[bernhard]

Did the composer study law at Leipzig?

[ayahav]

He is german. Not Italian. He did go to Leipzig to study law...

[liszmaninopin]

could this piece be described as a set of smaller pieces?

[xvimbi]

Does the name of the piece refer to an insect?

If not, does the name of the piece refer to an event where masked people participate?

[liszmaninopin]

are there consequences for too many incorrect guesses?

[xvimbi]

are there consequences for too many incorrect guesses?

Not at this moment, but I think we should establish the following rules:
1. Only one question per post
2. After three "no's", the poster is out!

Effective after my previous post, of course  

[liszmaninopin]

that works-I'll put out another guess.

Schumann's Papillons

(if I get this wrong, then I have to get the next right or I'm out of this particular riddle-fair enough)

[xvimbi]

Suggestion for an amendment of the rules: If someone makes a guess what the piece is with title and opus number, and it's wrong, the person is out immediately. I think the idea is to slowly hone in on the piece with intelligent questions, until it becomes clear what it is. That requires pieces that have some "handles" to them.

[liszmaninopin]

question, then:

I just guessed "Papillons."  However, supposing I said Papillons, op. 2; and it turns out to be wrong, then I'm out?  But if in its current state, it's wrong, I'm in?  I like the three guesses rule, but I'm not sure about your new suggestion.

[Swan]

Can I recap the rules?  (sorry, it's the teacher in me  , and all this 'let's make up the rules as we go is driving me a little bonkers - I'm not playing a lot, but I'm reading it!)  How's this suggestion?  Have a list of rules and if three people agree with the motion, the rules stand?

How to Play

1. Ask one question per post. (and no cheating by posting consecutively)
2. Ask questions that can be answered yes or no.
3.  During a round, each player is allowed to make one 'cryptical' question which can allow an answer more detailed than yes or no.  (Bernhard, as this was your idea, how about checking on this part of the game.  Posts happen so quickly that a person may forget they have already used their cryptic question.  You can disqualify a person if they break the rules .... just a suggestion).
4. Players may ask as many questions as they like (one per post) but are allowed only one attempt at the definitive answer.   (of course if they are out of this round, they can join in on the next round)

So summary:

1.  One question per post.

2.  Yes or no answers.

3.  One cryptic question per round per player.

4.  One guess per player per round.


Are these rules easy enough and fair enough to follow?

Of course the only way to know if playing the game with these rules is going to be boring, is to try it for a while.  

[liszmaninopin]

yes, in general I can agree to those rules.  However, I've already made more than one guess for this round, so does this mean I'm out?

[xvimbi]

Can I recap the rules?  (sorry, it's the teacher in me  , and all this 'let's make up the rules as we go is driving me a little bonkers - I'm not playing a lot, but I'm reading it!)

I wasn't making up rules, merely suggesting some. I think the mystery statement should come from the person who selects the piece to be guessed (the "guessee").
Amendment 45: If a guessee gives the wrong answer to a guesser's question and therefore utterly confuses and misleads the guesser, the guessee will have to retrieve all pencils that have fallen into his/her piano and eat their erasers.

[Antnee]

I think we should start a new thread with all of the new rules at the first post like Ahmedito had in the original riddle game thread...

-Tony-

[ahmedito]

I totally agree with the rules posted above, but for Gods sake, finish the current one with the currnet rules. Whoever wins gets to start the new thread with the new rules.... k?
this is getting a bit confusing.

[Rob47]

Hi can I play?

Is it "Reverie" Op. 7 by Hans von Bulow?

And does this mean I can't play anymore if its wrong?

[ayahav]

It's not Papillons. It's not Carnival. It's not by Hans von Bulow. To some extent this could technically be considered a set of smaller pieces, but I have the feeling that if I say this it'll mislead you. (oops, did I say too much?  )

[xvimbi]

Is it Schumann's Sonata Op. 118?

[Tash]

DUH it's 'Star minor' by Tash how can you not get it

[ayahav]

It's neither.... sorry... keep guessing...

[xvimbi]

Schumann's Abegg Variations?

[liszmaninopin]

Is this piece in a minor key?

[bernhard]

Was the piece composed before the composer's marriage?

In regard to the modified rules.

I agree with most of them. Here are some thoughts on the question of penalties:

Xvinbi has suggested:

1. After three "no's", the poster is out.

1.      If someone makes a guess what the piece is with title and opus number, and it's wrong, the person is out immediately. I think the idea is to slowly hone in on the piece with intelligent questions, until it becomes clear what it is. That requires pieces that have some "handles" to them

I completely agree with the rationale behind these penalties. But I think them a bit harsh. Because there are at the moment only 4 – 5 players, such harshness may result in the game stopping for lack of players. I would replace them with the following:

Any player can ask as many questions as s/he wants, however if the name of the piece or the name of the composer is (wrongly) mentioned, after three “nos” s/he is out of the game.

For instance:

“is the piece Papillons”, (No)
“is the piece by Schumann” (No)
“is the piece Moonlight sonata by Beethoven”,(No)

The player is out of the game. However

“is the name of the piece insect related” (No)
“is the piece by someone who studied law in Leipzig”(No)
“is the piece by a deaf composer whose title was chosen by his editor” (No)

The player is still on..

So, as long as the name of the piece or of the composer is not (wrongly) mentioned in the question, no penalty results.

2.      Amendment 45: If a guessee gives the wrong answer to a guesser's question and therefore utterly confuses and misleads the guesser, the guessee will have to retrieve all pencils that have fallen into his/her piano and eat their erasers.

I would replace that with:

If a guessee gives the wrong answer to a guesser's question and therefore utterly confuses and misleads the guesser, the guessee will have to miss a round, that is, he must win two games to be allowed to be the riddler again.


So here is a summary (if everyone agrees, then these rules are into effect for the next game – they can always be changed if they don't work):

1.      Only pieces for piano solo, or pieces where the piano plays an important part (e.g. Piano concertos, piano trios, etc.)

2.      Only mainstream repertory (no obscure composers, or pieces like Scarlatti sonatas who number 555 unless it is a well known sonata amongst the 555)

3.      Only one question per player (A player can only ask another question after being answered)

4.      Only yes or no questions.

5.      A player can at any moment in the game ask one and only one cryptic statement from the riddler by asking: “Can I please have a cryptic statement?”. The riddler can choose if his/her statement will concern the composer (if it has not been explicitly and correctly mentioned by name yet) or the piece.

3.      Penalties:

a.      Any player can ask as many questions as s/he wants, however if the name of the piece or the name of the composer is mentioned, after three “nos” s/he is out of the game (e.g. “is the piece Papillons”, “is the piece by Schumann” and “is the piece Mppnlight sonata by Beethoven”, if wrong and asked by the same player would lead to him/her being excluded from the game. However if the player had asked: “is the name of the piece insect related”, “is the piece by someone who studied law in Leipzig” and “is the piece by a deaf composer whose title was chosen by his editor”, that is all right). So, as long as the name of the piece or of the composer is not mentioned in the question, no penalty results.

b.      If the riddler gives the wrong answer to a guesser's question and therefore utterly confuses and misleads the guesser, the riddler will have to miss a round, that is, s/he must win two games before s/he is allowed to be the riddler again.



Finally: After this game, can we start the next one on a new thread? This one is taking a while to load…

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[xvimbi]

Bernhard's summary of the new rules sound fine by me. I still like the eraser-eating idea, though...

[ayahav]

It is not the ABEGG variations. However, it IS in a minor key (most of the romantic repertoire is, or almost most of it)...

I believe that it was composed before his marriage...

I believe that Clara might have taken out this work when she published all of Robert's works, because she was angry that the work was not dedicated to her.


This probably gives this away...

[bernhard]

It is not the ABEGG variations. However, it IS in a minor key (most of the romantic repertoire is, or almost most of it)...

I believe that it was composed before his marriage...

I believe that Clara might have taken out this work when she published all of Robert's works, because she was angry that the work was not dedicated to her.


This probably gives this away...

Was the work dedicated to a lady?

[ayahav]

Yes.

[xvimbi]

Hmm, most of Schumann's pieces from that time are dedicated (at least inspired) by Clara... hmmm...

Piano Sonata No. 3 in F minor ("Concerto Without Orchestra"), Op. 14

[bernhard]

Hmm, most of Schumann's pieces from that time are dedicated (at least inspired) by Clara... hmmm...

Piano Sonata No. 3 in F minor ("Concerto Without Orchestra"), Op. 14

I thought about the sonatas, but they are decicated to Clara, and this one is dedicated to Ignaz Moschelles, who is not a lady.  :-/

Whata about the Allegro in Bm, op. 8 , dedicated to Ernestina von Frische (Schumann's fiancee, just before Clara)?

[ayahav]

That's not it...

In fact, I'll add a clue, just because you guys find it very hard to tell which piece I'm thinking about... Schumann already knew Clara when he composed this, and yet he still dedicated it to another woman, which irritated Clara to the point that she ignored this piece throughout her whole life. (I said it before, but think about it)

[xvimbi]

Schumann's Symphonic Etudes, Op. 13

If that's not it, I'll give up.

[bernhard]

That's not it...

In fact, I'll add a clue, just because you guys find it very hard to tell which piece I'm thinking about... Schumann already knew Clara when he composed this, and yet he still dedicated it to another woman, which irritated Clara to the point that she ignored this piece throughout her whole life. (I said it before, but think about it)

Does this piece has a veiled reference to the Marseillaise?

[ayahav]

It's not the Symphonic Etudes, and it's got nothing to do with a/the carnival  (ie, not even "Viennese Carnival Jest").

You give up?

[liszmaninopin]

I don't give up!

Let me do some more research, but so far I really have no idea.

After a few weeks of this, we'll all have an excellent knowledge of the repertoire, lol!

[xvimbi]

I don't know whom Schumann dedicated his pieces to, except for something that he dedicated to Chopin, so I have to guess:

Schumann's Grand Sonata No. 1 in F# Minor Op. 11

[liszmaninopin]

that's your third guess, now what happens?

Actually, I had another question relating to the rules.  If the "guessee" somehow accidentally misleads a guesser, are they responsible anyway (even if it's a total accident).  For example, when I was the guessee, I was asked if the piece in my mind was a named Sonata.  I replied no, because I had honestly never heard a name for it (Beethoven's op. 7).  When the identity of the piece was revealed, I was told that it was named the "Grand" Sonata.  I certainly didn't intentionally make a mistake, but what happens in this circumstance?

[ayahav]

It's not the First Sonata (dedicated to Chopin)... I said it was dedicated to a lady.

[xvimbi]

that's your third guess, now what happens?

I think everybody is suggesting to start the new rules with the next round. And also a new thread.

Actually, I had another question relating to the rules.  If the "guessee" somehow accidentally misleads a guesser, are they responsible anyway (even if it's a total accident).  For example, when I was the guessee, I was asked if the piece in my mind was a named Sonata.  I replied no, because I had honestly never heard a name for it (Beethoven's op. 7).  When the identity of the piece was revealed, I was told that it was named the "Grand" Sonata.  I certainly didn't intentionally make a mistake, but what happens in this circumstance?

You can only hope you don't have a lot of erasers in your piano...  
I think it would be fair for the guessee to say that s/he doesn't know the answer to a certain question. That aspect of the piece would then have to remain unresolved. Otherwise, if the guessee gives an answer, s/he will be responsible for the consequences... ... I heard they are making strawberry flavored erasers nowadays...

[liszmaninopin]

is this lady a member of schumann's family?

[ayahav]

No... Neither is she to become a member of his family (ie Clara Wieck).

[liszmaninopin]

schumann's bunte blatter, op. 99?

[ayahav]

nope.

[liszmaninopin]

okay, then, I'm going to use my one available non-yes-or-no question.  What is the name of the person this piece is dedicated to?

[ayahav]

I think that by saying this I'm giving it away... but what the heck... I've been riddling for too long... It's dedicated to

Henriette Voigt

[xvimbi]

Schumann's Sonata in G minor, op. 22

[Rob47]

ah crap....it was blank and then i refreshed and you wrote the anwer  

oh well...

[liszmaninopin]

I second that!