Bach's Music with historical Tunings (anybody using them?)

[lars_o]

I have read that the "equal temperament" tuning which we mostly use today is not what was used by Bach when he wrote the the "Wohltemperierte Klavier". (see https://www.kylegann.com/histune.html ). Most importantly, while Bachs tuning system made all Keys usable (which wasn't possible with previous systems) it gave characteristic sounds to each of the keys. As far as I know, these characteristics are mostly lost in our modern equal-temperament tuning.

In Bach's time, the new well tempered tunings were also called equal tempered (since you could play in all keys equally well) and this leads to the confusion we see today were people may think Bach used the same tuning system we are using today when he wrote W.T.C.

Does anybody know of any recordings of the W.T.C. that are performed on an instrument with historical tuning that is believed to be close to what Bach may have used (his exact tuning method remains unknown)

Also, I'm thinking about getting my Piano tuned this way and I would like to hear if anybody is using tunings different from modern equal temperament (e.g. Werckmeister III) and what your experiences are.

All the best...
Lars

[casaet]

We do not know exactly what Bachs well tempered tuning was, but you will find some very good samples on Pianoteqs homepage. Google pianoteq, choose listen,
listen by instrument, historical instruments. There is Beethoven with well tempered tuning, Couperin on a Blanchet harpsichord with Werkmeiste lll, and several other modelled instruments with equal tuning.
casaet

[casaet]

I have been checking a few things, and the theory of tuning and temperaments are of course very complicated. But there is a very practical and  simple way to test different temperaments on different instruments. I have a trial version of Pianoteq software on my computer, and it is very simple to change the temperament, from equal to Werckmeister lll to well tempered, and several others. One will need an electronic keyboard and the necessary  equipment to connect to a computer. Very easy to try out Bachs music in any temperament. My ability to play Bach is very limited, but there are others here who should have no problem with that.
casaet

[retrouvailles]

Are you perhaps thinking of historical performances when people tune their instruments to A = 415 (or approximately that)? I think this is something strictly for purposes of authenticity, and the same goes for temperament. Using a different temperament to me would seem impractical for everyday usage of the piano, unless you are playing repertoire for historical purposes, or unless the composer specifically calls for it. There are composers today who specifically call for other kinds of tunings and temperaments (just intonation seems to be used a lot today). However, for an instrument that is for everyday purposes, A 440 and 12 tone equal temperament are the ways to go. If you have an instrument to set aside for historical performance, I would give it a shot with different temperaments and tunings.

[lars_o]

Are you perhaps thinking of historical performances when people tune their instruments to A = 415 (or approximately that)? [...] However, for an instrument that is for everyday purposes, A 440 and 12 tone equal temperament are the ways to go.

I'm not so much interested in the "historical" pitch. What interests me is the fact that with the well tempered tunings that were developed in Bach's time, the different keys are supposed to have quite a different character (while still remaining playable). This is no longer the case with the modern tuning of equal temperament.

How unpractical a non-equal temperament (like for instance a Werckmeister III) is for playing post 19th century music is indeed something I would love to hear opinions on.

I'll defiinetly check out the pianoteq software. Thanks for that suggestion casaet.

[lars_o]

Well, here's a quick update... I got the pianoteq software to run and I some midi files for the WTC  pieces which I played in the software and I tried to switch back and forth between equal and well temperament to see if I could here a difference. I think it sounded different but the difference was not as big as I would have expected (hoped). I'll need to do more listening when I have a bit more time on my hand over the next days...

[gregorymlewis]

Peter Watchorn has recorded several Bach CDs using Bradley Lehman's ideas on harpsichord tuning.

https://www.musicaomnia.org/bachharpsichord.asp

[casaet]

Thanks for the reference to Bradley Lehman. He has some very interesting videos on Youtube. One where he plays three pieces by Bach, with equal temperament and then with Bachs temperament. Here the difference is very clear, and it is obvious that Bach sounds best well tempered. Seems that Lehman must have come very close to Bachs own tuning. The difference would probably have been more clear if he played a better instrument. I must admit that I enjoy listening to Bach on a modern piano too. The performer is more important than temperaments and instruments.
casaet

[lars_o]

I've found some more time to put into this. As an experiment I've create two versions of the WTK-v2 Prelude in C# minor using the same midi file and same instrument settings in pianoteq except for the temperament. One version uses equal temperament and the other uses Werckmeister III. I've linked and embedded the mp3 files in a little document at https://www.lidodeck.de/temperament/ so you might hear it yourself. I do think the effect is quite striking with the well-tempered Werckmeister tuning when a passage progresses towards a harmony that has a lot of the pure intervals in them. An effect that is not so striking in the version with equal tuning.
However, due to the fact that this is generated from a midi file and not based on a performance by a human player makes the piece sound rather dead in both versions. Hence I do agree with what casaet has said: the performer is far more important than the temperament of the tuning.

[latrobe]

I tuned the instruments for the Nice International Piano Competition this year using my High Definition twist of Kellner (Bach) well temperament. Here's an explanation of the tuning

=7148 followed by David Martinescu aged 8 playing Bach, the winner of the Junior class, on the Yamaha C7 used for the junior section and semi-finals.

Because the tuning is that of an organ and resonant, it reduces the modes of vibration and removes the mush from the sustain pedal sound. So as an experiment I got the young lad back in and asked him to play his Bach as if he was playing the organ in the cathedral. Unequal temperament has the possibility of revolutionising the playing of Bach on the piano . . .

Best wishes

David P