What's the most dramatic piano piece ever written?

[thalbergmad]

I have yet - and have no wish - to meet anyone who farts perfume, although I do of course know (as do you also) that Sorabji wrote a piece called Le Jardin Parfumé; however, since certain of your past posts might suggest that your knowledge of the subject of farts is considerably more "lofty" than mine, I'll bow thereto.

If you ever do meet someone that can fart perfume, you will probably find them to have superior skills to the composer you continually refer to.

Thal

[redbaron]

Isn't Sorabji just a great big pile of wank?

[pianovlad1996]

I don't force you to reply and to be kind. This topic is mutated by geniuses in grammar, behaviour and others like you. If my age, nationallity, gender and other silly problems then означает что вы все с ума, и вам нужен хороший психиатр.   And please leave this topic if you belive you are more important than other users.  

[sordel]

Isn't Sorabji just a great big pile of wank?

If Thal were picking sides for football, he'd have left you against the wall, Red. I'd keep quiet and let him do the talking for you, like he does the thinking.

[redbaron]

означает что вы все с ума, и вам нужен хороший психиатр.

How true

[redbaron]

If Thal were picking sides for football, he'd have left you against the wall, Red. I'd keep quiet and let him do the talking for you, like he does the thinking.

Go *** yourself

[pianovlad1996]

I can't say who's the commentary about but I can assure you that person is on my black list of revenge.

[ahinton]

But the relatively small proportion produce more hot air than the rest of us put together.

In your opinion, perhaps

Never in the history of piano forums has so much gas been produced by so few to infest so many.

What, if any, are your means of measuring the volume of said gas? Without knowing this in the absence of provable evidence of its reliability, your statement is not possible to justify. Furthermore, gases may pollute but cannot actully "infest".

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

If you ever do meet someone that can fart perfume, you will probably find them to have superior skills to the composer you continually refer to.

I doubt that on both counts, firstly that I would be likely ever to meet such a person in any event and secondly that such a person would have "superior"skills, since farting and compositional skills are quite different to one another and can not therefore be evaluated one against the other.

There are in any case quite a few composers to whom I refer with relative frequency, albeit none to whom I refer "continually", a fact which further dilutes the credibility of your statement.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Isn't Sorabji just a great big pile of wank?

Sorabji isn't anything, still less "a pile" thereof; he died in 1988. He was a composer. What you ask about is something quite different, though quite what it is remains unclear.

Best,

Alistair

[pianovlad1996]

Oh Lord .... I'm starting to wonder if behind the comments there is a real person or computer who writes ....

[pianovlad1996]

Sometimes, when I see people-robots, I tend to explain them how I feel in my native language: Как интересно, что Алистер является только скучно нам глупо с его замечаниями, но не понимает ... Жаль, дураки вторглись в город уже скучно ...     

[pianisten1989]

Ahinton, stop trying to act like such an important person, and go back to the freaking topic!

[ahinton]

Oh Lord .... I'm starting to wonder if behind the comments there is a real person or computer who writes ....

Or indeed "***" (as has been seen more than once so far)...

Best,

Alistair

[pianovlad1996]

Well said pianisten1989. I like your mentality. 

[ahinton]

Ahiston, stop trying to act like suck an important person, and go back to the freaking topic!

Although by "suck" I presume you to mean "such", I am not in any case acting, stil less "trying to act", like "an important person", which fact is hardly surprising, since I do not regard myself as one!

As to responding to the thread topic, whilst I agree (and have already recommended) that this ought to be a more constructive action than the submission of some of what has instead been put forward here and to some of which I and others have responded, the topic itself is, in my opinion, fundamentally flawed. How and on what grounds can anyone actually measure, compare and evaluate levels of dramatic expression? How could anyone reasonably expect anything remotely approaching general agreement on so subjective a matter in any case?

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Well said pianisten1989. I like your mentality. 

You may indeed (that is your prerogative), but I would at the very least take issue with the notion that a topic worth returning to is "freaking" (although I have already now expressed my reservations about that topic and its usefulness in response to pianisten1989's somewhat vulgarly expressed, if at the same time well-meaning, remark).

Best,

Alistair

[pianovlad1996]

Robot...

[pianovlad1996]

But it's not a shame to be a robot. The only problem is you have to change your oil 45 times a day. And I was quite explicit: drama = drama (a combination between tragedy and comedy ). In music, drama consists of shades, a climax which is exaggerated and rubatos. So if you think you are smart, know that you are not from a Russian.

[lostinidlewonder]

It is a game of who gets the last word did you guys know that already? If you don't respond that means you can't respond and got beaten and the other person will feel better and be victorious! You can't let that happen now can you?

[pianovlad1996]

You are right but you can't say you agree with that robot.... Perhaps....

[sordel]

It is a game of who gets the last word did you guys know that already? If you don't respond that means you can't respond and got beaten and the other person will feel better and be victorious! You can't let that happen now can you?

That's not entirely true. I let Redbaron get the last word because he had already hanged himself with it. Generally, though, it's true that this will tend to go on for as long as there is fight in both sides, for which I apologise, since it must be tiresome for onlookers.

Vlad, before you get cute attacking Alistair, or anyone else, in Russian, be aware that we can all find translation tools on the internet.

[thalbergmad]

Although by "suck" I presume you to mean "such"

Either would suffice in this instance.

Thal

[pianovlad1996]

I didn't say something bad or horrible and I'm not attacking him. I writed in my own language to proove that we are different and we are sensitive. If somebody hurts us, we defend.For us, drama is an important think, a tradition. We have also great  musicians so I think that he isn't superior us. And I am angry because he mutates my topic (which has a subject-for Alistair it's boring and unclear) and changes it in an online dictionary . I know that he can translate my sentence but I didn't say a bad thing. I said the truth. 
Sometime, instead of saying "yes" he says a entire phrase which I ussualy don't understand. This is discrimination. He can also say that bloody "yes". Also I didn't see Alistair being intrested in something on this forum. I hope you understand me because I am tired of fake persons like him who analyzes every word in a phrase instead of founding it's essence.

[ahinton]

I was quite explicit: drama = drama (a combination between tragedy and comedy ). In music, drama consists of shades, a climax which is exaggerated and rubatos.

It surely consists of and embraces far more than just that!

So if you think you are smart

I do not, nor did I suggest that I did.

know that you are not from a Russian

I already know that I am not from a Russian, since my mother was not Russian...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Either would suffice in this instance.

Not so; "stop trying to act like suck an important person" is not even a sentence.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

I didn't say something bad or horrible and I'm not attacking him. I writed in my own language to proove that we are different and we are sensitive. If somebody hurts us, we defend.For us, drama is an important think, a tradition. We have also great  musicians so I think that he isn't superior us. And I am angry because he mutates my topic (which has a subject-for Alistair it's boring and unclear) and changes it in an online dictionary . I know that he can translate my sentence but I didn't say a bad thing. I said the truth. 
Sometime, instead of saying "yes" he says a entire phrase which I ussualy don't understand. This is discrimination. He can also say that bloody "yes". Also I didn't see Alistair being intrested in something on this forum. I hope you understand me because I am tired of fake persons like him who analyzes every word in a phrase instead of founding it's essence.

No, you did not say anything bad nor did you attack me as such (at least not as far as I am concerned). I have certainly never sought tto assert my superiority over Russian musicians. I am neither mutating your topic nor claiming that it is boring or unclear; the topic itself is indeed clear in and of itself, but where I stated that I find it to be flawed is in the fact that one cannot evaluate and measure quantities of drama as implied in the notion of "the most dramatic piano piece ever written", for drama is not a phenomenon that functions on merely quantitative levels. That's all!

Best,

Alistair

[pianisten1989]

Although by "suck" I presume you to mean "such", I am not in any case acting, stil less "trying to act", like "an important person", which fact is hardly surprising, since I do not regard myself as one!

As to responding to the thread topic, whilst I agree (and have already recommended) that this ought to be a more constructive action than the submission of some of what has instead been put forward here and to some of which I and others have responded, the topic itself is, in my opinion, fundamentally flawed. How and on what grounds can anyone actually measure, compare and evaluate levels of dramatic expression? How could anyone reasonably expect anything remotely approaching general agreement on so subjective a matter in any case?

Best,

Alistair

Yeah, I don't know where you got my quote from, cause I didn't write suck...
And who said anything about agreement?! He asked us to recommend some dramatic piano pieces. Though, this might be too difficult for you. And if this topic is so "fundamentally flawed", just leave. We actually don't need you.

[pianisten1989]

Hi, I'm very important. In fact, I am very much more important than you.

There, you said it. Can we, please stop this useless argument?

[sordel]

I didn't say something bad or horrible and I'm not attacking him.

No, nothing bad or horrible: you may be right that an autotranslate programme does not give the correct version of what you wrote, but it implies that you were calling him boring.

You are correct that Alistair and I use complex sentences, and we are interested in discussing ideas rather than simply answering your questions. Generally, though, someone starting a thread in a forum like this is not simply looking for answers to a particular question. Threads develop, or in this case decay. No disrespect is intended by anyone here to you or your original question, and I hope that you find plenty of suggestions to help you.

[thalbergmad]

I hope you understand me because I am tired of fake persons like him who analyzes every word in a phrase instead of founding it's essence.

You are lucky, some of us have had 6 years of it.

Anyway, I have attempted to assist you in your other thread on sonatas and i hope it remains clear of pompous pointless dissections.

Please do not think to badly of us, this thread is the exception rather than the rule, although those of us who have been members all of 5 minutes and are happily passing judgement may think differently.

Thal

[lostinidlewonder]

Not so; "stop trying to act like suck an important person" is not even a sentence.

Best,

Alistair

It might make sense with proper grammar and capital letters.

"Stop trying to act like Suck, an important person." Whoever Suck is we don't know

[ahinton]

Yeah, I don't know where you got my quote from, cause I didn't write suck...

See message #115; you did indeed write "suck" and I quoted your message in which you did so in message #115; you have simply corrected it since, which is why you've not mentioned this before.

And who said anything about agreement?! He asked us to recommend some dramatic piano pieces. Though, this might be too difficult for you.

I did. My purpose for doing so was quite clear, which was to illustrate that people are unlikely to be able to agree on the extent of drama in any given piece, which is what gave rise to my stating that the topic is "fundamentally flawed".

just leave. We actually don't need you.

For one thing, I do not take orders from you any more than I would expect you to take any from me (and I don't); for another, since you omit to clarify to whom you refer by the word "we", should it be assumed that you are once again claiming, albeit without right or evidence, to be trying to speak for a majority here?

Best,

Alistair

[pianisten1989]

yes, oh mighty one.

[thalbergmad]

should it be assumed that you are once again claiming, albeit without right or evidence, to be trying to speak for a majority here?

He might well be speaking for the majority here.

Thal

[ahinton]

You are lucky, some of us have had 6 years of it.

Some of us have been here long enough to remember pianistimo's contributions, but that's perhaps beside the point (whatever your point actually is here).

To justify describing a contributor as "fake" (which I realise you have not yourself done) it would be necessary to identify what the genuine article would or should be and illustrate the perceived and/or actual difference between this and the person being described as "fake"; in the absence of such distinction and explanation, the reader can only accept or reject such a description at such face value as it might possess, if any.

Likewise, to claim (as again I realise you have not yourself done) that certain contributors "analyze every word in a phrase" is all very well, but has no credibility wthout the hard evidence that has not been provided in this instance because, of course, there is none to provide.

It is not expected that every statement in a post be bolstered by supporting evidence, naturelly, but when bald statements such as the above are made, those who make them ought at least to possess such evidence in order to justify those statements, otherwise they lack credibility.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

He might well be speaking for the majority here.

At least you have the grace to use the caveat "might"; no evidence has been presented to confirm that it is the case, however.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

yes, oh mighty one.

I'm no mightier than you, but it's nice to see that you agree on that one point at last!

Best,

Alistair

[pianovlad1996]

Dear Alistair,
Please excuse me if I was rude and impolite but you are writing with so much complexity and I do not understand. I learn English at school and I do not know some words. But this is the truth and I am not English. I did not want to exaggerate with my Russian (I was verry wrong and excuse me for this).
Can you forgive me for my snobbish attitude?

[nanabush]

How do people have the time to sit on forums all day correcting grammar?!!  Do you get paid to do this?

-Again, listen to any of the Rachmaninoff Concerti.
-Kabalevsky Prelude #24
-Bach/Busoni Toccata and Fugue in D minor
-Debussy, Jardins sous la Pluie
-Ravel, Gaspard de la Nuit
-Chopin, any of the Ballades or Scherzi

[thalbergmad]

Please excuse me if I was rude and impolite but you are writing with so much complexity and I do not understand.

I assure you that there are English speakers that do not always understand him, me included sometimes.

No matter how trivial or complex the topic, he still goes through the ins and outs of a ducks arse.

Thal

[ahinton]

Dear Alistair,
Please excuse me if I was rude and impolite

Please be assured that there is no need for excuses.

but you are writing with so much complexity and I do not understand. I learn English at school and I do not know some words. But this is the truth and I am not English.

It is just as much for me to apologise for not being conversant with the Russian language!

I did not want to exaggerate with my Russian (I was verry wrong and excuse me for this)

Again, no need to excuse.

Can you forgive me for my snobbish attitude?

No. In order to do so, I would first have to perceive such an attitude on your part before deciding whether or not it could be forgiven, but whatever else I may have noted in your writing, it is not snobbery, so there is no need even to think of forgiving anything that has not been seen.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

No matter how trivial or complex the topic, he still goes through the ins and outs of a ducks arse.

Whoever "he" may or may not be, I can at least assure you and anyone else interested (if anyone is indeed interested) that the parts of a duck with which I am familiar through having consumed this wonderful creature on numerous occasions prepared in various different ways do not happen to include its arse (although maybe the missing apostrophe in "duck's" is quite tasty without my having realised this - there are, after all, so many things that I do not know).

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Evidence in the last post.

[pianovlad1996]

You are so kind.  
I need to excuse.   Sometimes I am rude but only when I feel sick like today and yesterday. And instead of staying in bed and watching TV or eating my favourite meal, I sat on the forum  and wrote stupid comments until I exploded. That was drama. My way to behave with you. I am not a tense and nervous person but when I do not understand anything I feel inferior and useless.

[ahinton]

You are so kind.  
I need to excuse.   Sometimes I am rude but only when I feel sick like today and yesterday. And instead of staying in bed and watching TV or eating my favourite meal, I sat on the forum  and wrote stupid comments until I exploded. That was drama. My way to behave with you. I am not a tense and nervous person but when I do not understand anything I feel inferior and useless.

Then please don't; it will do you no good, especially if it is quite unnecessary!

Back to the topic, anyone?...

Best,

Alistair

[edward]

As others have noted, drama in this context depends to a great extent on the preferences and prejudices of the listener.  I think that John Cage's 4' 33" has a great deal of dramatic tension; but for everyday consumption I'm partial to Rachmaninov's Etude Tableau Op 39 No 6.

[djealnla]

Please excuse me if I didn't make a useful topic for you but for me it is quite important. I have to make a study about dramatic pieces like Scriabin Op.8 No.12, Impomptu Op.12 no.2 and many other. I thought that if I'll ask about "The most dramatic piano piece ever written" I'll found new pieces that I didn't know about.
But unfortunately I started other topics that offend and discourage some people from posting. Some write about English grammar in this forum, others become snobbish and a little melodramatic about definitions of words.
Please do not turn this topic into your own fun. If you think this topic is not interesting, find one because there are over 1000. Nobody forces you to give reply. I have a purpose and I'll not give up because someone doesn't understand the meaning of the word "dramatic". You can fnd this unprecedented word in a dictionary and after dozens of hours of depth please write on the forum.

But it's not a shame to be a robot. The only problem is you have to change your oil 45 times a day. And I was quite explicit: drama = drama (a combination between tragedy and comedy ). In music, drama consists of shades, a climax which is exaggerated and rubatos.

My apologies if my inquiry offended you. My point is simply that what you meant by the adjective "dramatic" was not clear. You have stated that the greater the combination between tragedy and comedy is to be found in a piece, the more dramatic it is. I appreciate this clarification, and thus remove Finnissy's 4th Piano Concerto from the list of my nominations, since, while the piece does fit my definition of the word which must not be mentioned (nor defined, of course), it can be hardly deemed humorous.

As a somewhat random aside, in his biography of Beethoven, Lewis Lockwood (at the very end of it) describes Beethoven's Quartets Opp. 131 and 135 as "the greatest tragedy and the greatest comedy Beethoven ever wrote" (or something like that).

I think Thal makes an excellent point  

So you have no interest in defining the word "dramatic". It does not matter anymore, though, since "pianovlad1996" has already proven my point. Different people understand this word differently.

Can I come out now? I take it the spelling-correcting, pedantic, definition-seeking dullards of the Street have temporarily been vanquished?

Sordel and Hinty, shut the *** up, you're boring the arse off me now.

Isn't Sorabji just a great big pile of wank?

How true [said in respect to a remark about Alistair by "pianovlad1996", for which its author later apologized]

Go *** yourself[,] ["sordel"]

Ah, so not only are you disinterested in sober discourse, but you are actually a troll. Of course, only somebody with a giant ego would include the word "baron" in his own forum username.

How is that an insult?

You don't know? Well, let's have another look at your post:

So that know-it-all people can live their life by correcting other's spelling mistakes (on the internet) and being wise asses about what "Dramatic" is.

I see the following insults:

1) "know-it-all people", which is basically synonymous with the word "smartasses"
2) "can live their life", which implies I have no life
3) "wise asses"

Apart from that your post is rude, in that it is completely off-topic and includes a sassy ad hominem attack, which adds nothing of value to this discussion. You also haven't apologized for your false accusation that I'm living my life by being a "wise ass", even though I have shown it to be unfounded.

If Haydn wanted to write a very dramatic piece (sorry if you don't understand what I mean..) he probably could.

And he did. You might like to check out the following article:

https://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2009/may/29/joseph-haydn-comedy-classical-music

This, of course, is presented here because of "pianovlad1996"'s definition of the word "drama".

Why I insult you? Well, I would more say "Make fun of", but you do that very well yourself, so I don't really need to.

Really? Do I "do that very well"? When have I ever insulted (or made fun of) myself? Perhaps you meant to write "you do know that very well yourself". Even then I still don't understand it, simply because it has nothing to do with the subject of this thread. You should have posted such a comment where it belongs, but you didn't. And why? Because in that other thread, I silenced you by pointing out that [Franz Joseph] Haydn's musical output does not consist solely of piano sonatas, which is a fact you are too proud and self-righteous to both admit and accept.

Now I will go and listen to something that a dear super famous friend wrote yesterday. I don't listen to anything but super modern music. Because of that, I am better than everybody else.

You really are going to present this sort of crap? Let me ask you several questions:

Has it never occurred to you that you such a statement is severely offensive in the eyes of those who are passionate about the more "radical" compositions of the 20th and 21st centuries? Tell me, would you ever say such a thing to a close friend of yours? What do you think of the following text?

Yay, November 4, 2004
By ["]rattfink["]
This review is from: ["]Classical Music for People Who Hate Classical Music["] (Audio CD)
Thank God these people took the time to compile this collection, now I can just get this and don't have to bother figuring out what's good and what's not good. Everything classical that's worth listening to is here. If it's not included, it must not be worth listening to. Even if it is, who cares, I'll never waste my time trying to find out. And to all you snobs who think you're so intellectual and know every friggin symphony number and composer that ever existed, give yourself a pat on the back for being better than everyone else.

Source: https://www.amazon.com/review/R3Q8MTJQZN7TE9/ref=cm_cr_pr_perm?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B000003QWH&nodeID=&tag=&linkCode=

Would you take it lightly if somebody came to you and told you something like this? Your consideration (or, more accurately, lack thereof) for others' feelings is truly appalling. As is your ignorance of much of what happened in music during the last century.

Bach Prelude (and fugue) in C minor from Bk 1, though the prelude is far more dramatic than the prelude, imo.

I agree, the prelude is way more dramatic than the prelude.

That darn old piece? No! That's at least several days old! I was thinking of the monumental "Opusium Choiricombum for silence, 2 frogs and a dead tree" it takes between 1 sec and a trillion years to complete. You'll recognize it by listening to the long fermata the dead tree is holding until the silence comes in with a great forte. It was written tomorrow... That's how modern it is!

Well.. My title isn't even real words! They are bloody post-languagism! Since it's a both post and an -ism I just made up, it's better than anything. I don't care if only I care about the music, that means that I am better and more intelligent than you!

NONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONO!!!!!!!!!!!!! YOU'RE WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you take the time to read the responses , you will see why we make fun of you people... But I guess that's too much to ask for from such a superior species as yourself.

I rest my case.
 Though, I'm not sure what you mean by "best" Is it a tribute to George Best? Or is it maybe "The best - Alistair" or what, I don't get it? :S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S

STOP GOING O.T. IN EVERY SINGLE POST YOU PEDANTIC SSA!
He clearly said that you should get the h-ll out if you didn't want to give him any advice. So please, GET THE H-LL OUT OF THIS TOPIC!

Ahinton, stop trying to act like such an important person, and go back to the freaking topic!

There, you said it ["Hi, I'm very important. In fact, I am very much more important than you."]. Can we, please stop this useless argument?

Just like "redbaron", you are a troll who doesn't mind ceaselessly provoking others. You are also one of the insensitive and disgusting posters on this site.

Before I respond to this, can we agree on a definitive definition of the word "to".

Look Thal, I don't have any particular problem with you. However, what's the point of keeping telling a joke until it is no longer funny? Several years ago, your behavior was quite reasonable:

I am afraid of 20th Century music.

My musical tastes are very simple. If a piece has a nice melody, a nice fast and slow bit and ends with a bang, i am happy.

Much of the 20th century music i have listened to is too complex for my ear. I feel i need a music degree to listen to it.

My roots are in the Romantics and that is where i will remain.

Thal

Thal,

I beg of you to be nice to Mr. Hinton and others who may inquire about Sorabji, ok?  With over 6000 submitted comments to your credit I would like to believe that you are a reasonable chap.

Cheers.

I sometimes fail.

Thal

Why can't you have this attitude nowadays? A joke from time to time is perfectly acceptable and even refreshing, but in this thread you have gone too far, I think.

As far as the topic is concerned: the best combination of tragedy and comedy that I can think of in piano music is to be found in Beethoven's Diabelli Variations. Those of you who are not familiar with the piece should check it out, as it is one of the greatest pieces ever penned (in my book, at least).

[pianisten1989]

I planned to answer. But then I found something important to do.

[thalbergmad]

Same here. I refuse to enter into conversation with someone who is so desperate to make a point that they refer to a post I made nearly 4 years ago.

That is actually beyond pathetic.

Thal