I'm crazily deeply madly in love with Valentina Lisitsa

[ajspiano]

vag.

Thats hardly a positive point for you, firstly that's not difficult to get, secondly r4eva may be 17 but statistics say he's probably been there so you're unlikely to be ahead, and lastly its really not uncommon for women in general to be attracted to douchebags... which seems likely to be the case here.

[j_menz]

r4eva may be 17

Actually, he's 18 now. Our little boy has all growed up.

More generally:

[ajspiano]

We all have a lapse of judgement once in a while. My apologies.

[vladimir_gouldowsky]

Thats hardly a positive point for you, firstly that's not difficult to get, secondly r4eva may be 17 but statistics say he's probably been there so you're unlikely to be ahead, and lastly its really not uncommon for women in general to be attracted to douchebags... which seems likely to be the case here.

What on earth is going on here? I was asked in rather sarcastic tones what my artistry got me, and I responded 'vag'. Of course, my caps-lock was off, and I meant to say VAG, in reference to the free tickets I got for the Vermeer exhibit at the Vancouver Art Gallery.  What are you insinuating here??

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Actually, he's 18 now. Our little boy has all growed up.

More generally:

Turned 18 last month.    

I have yet to buy a pack of cigarettes, lottery ticket, and ticket to a strip club.  

I'll get to it.

Eventually...

[vladimir_gouldowsky]

The level of conversation here is abysmal. Such potty talk.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

The level of conversation here is abysmal. Such potty talk.

You were the one who attacked me first.  An eye for an eye homie.

[j_menz]

Turned 18 last month.    

I have yet to buy a pack of cigarettes, lottery ticket, and ticket to a strip club.  

I'll get to it.

Eventually...

Young people today. No get up and go.  

[ajspiano]

What on earth is going on here? I was asked in rather sarcastic tones what my artistry got me, and I responded 'vag'. Of course, my caps-lock was off, and I meant to say VAG, in reference to the free tickets I got for the Vermeer exhibit at the Vancouver Art Gallery.  What are you insinuating here??

touche.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Young people today. No get up and go.  

Well I have the end of the world to worry about so...

This petty stuff can come afterwards.

[j_menz]

Well I have the end of the world to worry about so...

This petty stuff can come afterwards.

Are you sure that the "nobler beings" that replace the strippers will still be doing the job?

[ajspiano]

Turned 18 last month.   

I have yet to buy a pack of cigarettes, lottery ticket, and ticket to a strip club. 

I'll get to it.

Eventually...

Skip the first 2, spend the assigned money on the last one.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Are you sure that the "nobler beings" that replace the strippers will still be doing the job?

Damn it!

I don't know man, it'll work out somehow.

Noble strippers?

Well I wonder how will they look like.  Will they still even be human?

Anyways, uuuh...

Damn it, I guess I'll do that first.

[ajspiano]

Noble strippers?

Some of them certainly have a bit of "elitism" about them if you don't throw money their way.

[chopin2015]

Also...

Rachmaninoff has the worst rendition of his third piano concerto.

It freaking SUCKS!!!

GARBAGE!!!

The lazy bastard didn't care enough to play the whole thing.

Loser...

but the first one is sooooo goood! He was probably like..."dude, I'm too wasted and old. I don't need to memorize it because I am gonna die some day anyways, and my brain will be no more. So....f*** it." Then he went home and improvised and didn't write it down. Then he performed 100 secret pieces and didn't record them...

[rachmaninoff_forever]

but the first one is sooooo goood! He was probably like..."dude, I'm too wasted and old. I don't need to memorize it because I am gonna die some day anyways, and my brain will be no more. So....f*** it." Then he went home and improvised and didn't write it down. Then he performed 100 secret pieces and didn't record them...

I LOVE his first! 

But did you know the first one was the last one he finished?

He tried writing it when he was 19, but he was like, *** that sh*t sucks, I'm gonna come back to it later.

Like have you seen the score or heard it?  The incomplete version.  Dude it's garbage!!!  I was talking to my teacher about it and he played some of it for me. 


Me:  so...  How about that fresh 1st concerto?

Teacher:  omg the first cadenza is soo amazing...

Me:  yes!!!  Finally something we agree on?

Teacher:  have you heard the original?  Before he finished the new one?

Me:  No?

Teacher:  it's garbage!!!  Dude what the heck was he thinking!  It's a good thing he went back to that piece of sh*t.

Me:  wanna play it for me?

Teacher:  . You sure?  Once you listen to it...  Your ears will never be the same...

Me:  hey shut up you're the one who can play it you loser!

Teacher:  it's already too late for me.  It pains me to see such...  Virgin ears TAINTED by this abomination!

Me:  just shut up and play it...

Teacher:  you asked for it...

*teacher plays original*

Me:  NOOOOOOOO stoop!!!!  NOOOOOOOO!!!

*my ears begin bleeding*

Me:  NOOOOOOOO no more!!! No more!!!  Play me some Bach!!!  BACH please!!!

Teacher:  what have I done...

[vladimir_gouldowsky]

Your teacher is a moron whose ignorant opinions you mindlessly regurgitate like the impressionable minion you are.  I doubt he will ever compose anything as good as one of Rachmaninoff's juvenile works.

[j_menz]

Me:   Play me some Bach!!!  BACH please!!!

Teacher:  what have I done...

His good deed for the day, apparently. 

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Your teacher is a moron whose ignorant opinions you mindlessly regurgitate like the impressionable minion you are.  I doubt he will ever compose anything as good as one of Rachmaninoff's juvenile works.

Actually he's a pretty solid professional pianist, and he's 10 times the musician you are.

And you haven't even listened to the original 1 before, so shutup.  Or himself playing his own own Rach 3.

Anyways, do you wanna know why he fixed the first concerto?  Because the original sucked you idiot!  Otherwise he would've left it the same. 

Just because Rachmaninoff is good doesn't mean that every little thing he wrote was good.  You're so blind, just because it's Rachmaninoff you think everything by him is incredible.

I bet if I recorded someting and posted it on pianostreet but said that the pianist was Rachmaninoff, you would think that it's genius.   

Get your head out of your ass little kid.

Anyways as I said before, we LOVE his first concerto.  The first version is the one we have problems with...

[rachmaninoff_forever]

His good deed for the day, apparently. 

I never would've thought that Rachmaninoff would get me in to begging for Bach...

[chopin2015]

I never would've thought that Rachmaninoff would get me in to begging for Bach...

hahahah....man...

No, I have not heard anything about the incomplete 1st. But really, it just shows that music is a journey. My teacher said to me today, "you are making it too complicated"....I zoned out on that, because I saw the light and began contemplating what simplicity really applies to...
Rach was like, " yeah, this is too complicated...so many thoughts and no immediate way to complete them. I'm gonna go do something fun now. Hmm, how bout this etude?"

I really don't know when he wrote what...I am not too ready to work on many of his pieces at this point. Maybe I will finish one by the end of the summer...fml

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I really don't know when he wrote what...I am not too ready to work on many of his pieces at this point. Maybe I will finish one by the end of the summer...fml

Oh come on you can play the Ondine, his preludes/etudes should be a walk in the park for you.   Okay not a walk in the park, some of them are pretty nasty.  Probably a medium jog in the park. 

Dude the order of his preludes like don't make sense.

One day I was gonna do a rach étude and I looked at the title and it was like...

OP 33 No 8

OP 33 no 7

Op 33 no 5

No 3...

...  What the heck?!?!?!  There was like 4 different numbers!!!  

[j_menz]

Dude the order of his preludes like don't make sense.

The Op. 33 Études-Tableaux were originally meant to comprise nine études when Rachmaninoff wrote them at Ivanovka. The composer decided to publish only six of them in 1911. Numbers three and five were published posthumously and are often inserted among the six études; number four was transferred to Op. 39, where it appears as number six of that set. (As a consequence, many recordings omit it from Op. 33). [wikipedia]

Composers can be annoying at times.

[chopin2015]

Oh come on you can play the Ondine, his preludes/etudes should be a walk in the park for you.   Okay not a walk in the park, some of them are pretty nasty.  Probably a medium jog in the park. 

Dude the order of his preludes like don't make sense.

One day I was gonna do a rach étude and I looked at the title and it was like...

Oh, you must be confusing me with yourself again...You should get that checked out. I said I learnt Ondine and that is all I said, silly  ...I won't play it for a while yet. I can play...other stuff though. hahaha

Just buy a complete set of the etudes and they will probably have a set in order. The history is interesting though. Maybe he would write just a few pieces of different form all at once, like a etude and a prelude and name them op 33, together. That's my educated guess.

[pianoman53]

It's one thing to say that Rachmaninov wasn't at his best when recording his third concerto. That I can agree on.
It's a completely different thing to say that it sucks and it's complete garbage.

It's just disrespectful.

[ahinton]

It's one thing to say that Rachmaninov wasn't at his best when recording his third concerto. That I can agree on.
It's a completely different thing to say that it sucks and it's complete garbage.

It's just disrespectful.

...and grossly misrepresentative of the facts!

Anyway, this thread is supposedly about Valentina Lisitsa, whose SVR concerto recordings don't do much for me, I have to say; it's also supposedly about one particular member claiming - though whether seriously or otherwise might be open to argument - to be "crazily(,) deeply(,) madly in love with" her, be that as a pianist or as herself or both, so quite how it's managed to go on for so long and for so many posts is quite beyond me.

Best,

Alistair

[chopin2015]

It's one thing to say that Rachmaninov wasn't at his best when recording his third concerto. That I can agree on.
It's a completely different thing to say that it sucks and it's complete garbage.

It's just disrespectful.

I'm sure rach_4evs was just claiming a comparison. When people first work on a piece, like a longer piece...the first time they get through it is not that great and can get better. Over time (if allowed to make progress), the piece gets better. So, the Rachmaninoff first attempt at the first concerto was garbage  compared to the master piece it later became. If he did not think it was garbage himself (at least a little bit) he would not have changed it (maybe).

[rachmaninoff_forever]

It's one thing to say that Rachmaninov wasn't at his best when recording his third concerto. That I can agree on.
It's a completely different thing to say that it sucks and it's complete garbage.

It's just disrespectful.

It's not that he wasn't at his best, he like didn't know what he was doing.  In his recording he completely ignores a bunch of the markings in the score, and cuts out like half the concerto cause he couldn't make up his mind.  Not to mention there's a bunch of static in the background so the quality isn't all that great either.  But when Horowitz came around, he was like, 'daaang that was soo good son!'

This is literally what his rach 3 is like

*listening to rach's rach 3*

Ugh static...  Well I can deal with it...

*major gap*

What the heck happened?!  Is there something wrong with the download?  I'll call iTunes later...

*listening some more*

*another major gap*

What the heck you skipped my favorite part!!!

*cadenza*

Okay I like the Ossia better, but I can deal with it.  He plays it fine anyways.

*several gaps later...*

*end of rach 3*

Well that sucked. . Let me call iTunes

*I call iTunes*

Me:  Yeah uuh, I bought the rach 3 from you guys and it's like not playing the whole piece.  What's up with that?

iTunes guy:  hmmm there's nothing wrong with the download.  You got the whole thing buddy.

Me:   . Well, I'll go listen to Horowitz, Volosos, or Lugansky or something.





I gave you a reason why it sucks, you have yet to give me a reason otherwise.  And don't tell me that I'm disrespectful unless you call out that Vladimir douchebag.  At least I actually went through the trouble of explaining myself while that kid insults me without giving reason why I'm in the wrong.  He's one of those Ad hominem fallacy punks eh?

I bet if anyone else played that you would say it sucked, but JUST BECAUSE it's Rachmaninoff, we have to deal with he "wasn't at his best".

Sorry, but I don't discriminate against legends and ordinary people.  If I hear something and I think it's good, it's good.  If it sucks, it sucks.  I don't blindly say that a recording is good just because the name of the person on the CD is from the golden era.  That's just ridiculous.

Now I await your response.  Tell me why I am wrong, go on.




And the first concerto...

Dude I love the first concerto!  But the original I have a problem with...  And Rachmaninoff has my favorite rendition of it.  Except I give the cadenza to Val...  

Second concerto goes to Nelson Freire or some other person on YouTube.  I have no idea who this persons name is.
Third goes to I don't know who.  But definitely not Rachmaninoff.
Fourth goes to Rachmaninoff or Earl Wild.
Paganini variations go to Rachmaninoff.

I think.

[pianoman53]

Dude. It like what the freaking heck omg lol.

Whatever you think. I don't care anymore.

[vladimir_gouldowsky]

Just to name a few things
- the playing is restrained in places (not every bar is oozing with lush romanticism like Cliburn-Kondrashin), but there are just jaw-dropping moments of dramatic tension, i.e., 6:45-7:12. The rich chord playing that follows is absolutely magnificent.  Rach's playing has depth and contrast.
- the candenza is astonishing: in my opionion, the best its ever been played

I could go on, but I would rather leave it to people who know this concerto (like Jorge Bolet) to sing Rachmaninoff's praises.

I don't know why you even claim to love rachmaninoff.  You understand NOTHING of his art.  I think your teacher-regurgitated criticism of rachmaninoff's playing is a pathetic and pedantic way of validating your own mediocre artistic accomplishments.  It's fine to critique rachmaninoff but saying his interpretation "sucks" deserves all the scorn its getting here.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Just to name a few things
- the playing is restrained in places (not every bar is oozing with lush romanticism like Cliburn-Kondrashin), but there are just jaw-dropping moments of dramatic tension, i.e., 6:45-7:12. The rich chord playing that follows is absolutely magnificent.  Rach's playing has depth and contrast.
- the candenza is astonishing: in my opionion, the best its ever been played

I could go on, but I would rather leave it to people who know this concerto (like Jorge Bolet) to sing Rachmaninoff's praises.

I don't know why you even claim to love rachmaninoff.  You understand NOTHING of his art.  I think your teacher-regurgitated criticism of rachmaninoff's playing is a pathetic and pedantic way of validating your own mediocre artistic accomplishments.  It's fine to critique rachmaninoff but saying his interpretation "sucks" deserves all the scorn its getting here.

6:45-7:12 of which movement?  Assuming the first correct?

Sure he does a good job there, but Horowitz does it much better sorry.

And I agree with you there, he has a pretty kickass cadenza.  But I like Horowitz Tocatta a little better, and I think the Ossia is just a better cadenza.

Oh, did I forget to mention that he completely SHRINKS the concerto!  That is unacceptable and you can't get away with that, I don't care who you are.  

If Rachmaninoff was reincarnated into someone else and entered the Van Cliburn competition and played it the exact same way, he would've came in dead last.

And like what J Menz said, I would only listen to his third concerto for studying purposes.  That's all.  I think it was J Menz...

Psh, I know more about Rachmaninoff than you do.  

And Rach is my favorite composer.  The only two things I don't like about him is rendition of his third, and his Op. 3 No. 2.  I would say his original first concerto but he fixed it so it's fine.

Oh so a full ride to University of Illinois is mediocre?  That's funny...  Assuming you went to college, while you're still in debt, I only have to pay 386 dollars a year.  What have you done?

My teacher never said anything about his playing you dumbass, he was talking about his original first concerto.  Learn how to read brat.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

6:45-7:12 of which movement?  Assuming the first correct?

Sure he does a good job there, but Horowitz does it much better sorry.

And I agree with you there, he has a pretty kickass cadenza.  But I like Horowitz Tocatta a little better, and I think the Ossia is just a better cadenza.

Oh, did I forget to mention that he completely SHRINKS the concerto!  That is unacceptable and you can't get away with that, I don't care who you are.  

If Rachmaninoff was reincarnated into someone else and entered the Van Cliburn competition and played it the exact same way, he would've came in dead last.

And like what J Menz said, I would only listen to his third concerto for studying purposes.  That's all.  I think it was J Menz...

Psh, I know more about Rachmaninoff than you do.  

And Rach is my favorite composer.  The only two things I don't like about him is rendition of his third, and his Op. 3 No. 2.  I would say his original first concerto but he fixed it so it's fine.

Oh so a full ride to University of Illinois is mediocre?  That's funny...  Assuming you went to college, while you're still in debt, I only have to pay 386 dollars a year.  What have you done?

My teacher never said anything about his playing you dumbass, he was talking about his original first concerto.  Learn how to read stupid brat.

[pianoman53]

If Rachmaninoff was reincarnated into someone else and entered the Van Cliburn competition and played it the exact same way, he would've came in dead last.

So would Schnabel, Cortot, Horowitz, Hoffman in his later days, Gould, de Pachman, Barere, all liszt's students and chopin's students...

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Sorry double post...   

[rachmaninoff_forever]

So would Schnabel, Cortot, Horowitz, Hoffman in his later days, Gould, de Pachman, Barere, all liszt's students and chopin's students...

Dang that's a good point...  Cause competitions want perfection.

However that's not the point I was trying to make.

The point I was trying to make was that you can't get away with playing half a concerto.  Everyone who you listed that played the Rach 3 played it better than Rachmaninoff.  If they were all in a competition, Rach would've still been in last place despite the fact he played it cleaner than all of them.

I would much rather listen to a sloppy performance than half a performance.  Okay it wasn't really half the concerto cut off, but you know what I mean.

[pianoman53]

Okay, I'll leave the discussion about why Rachmaninov's performance doesn't suck, and go to the following.

I would much rather listen to a sloppy performance than half a performance. 

Why?
Maybe his notes are off, and maybe he cuts some parts. But don't you think it's more fun to listen to someone who truly gets the point of the piece?

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Okay, I'll leave the discussion about why Rachmaninov's performance doesn't suck, and go to the following.
Why?
Maybe his notes are off, and maybe he cuts some parts. But don't you think it's more fun to listen to someone who truly gets the point of the piece?

It's even worse if they do a good job because then you end up feeling salty for missing everything.

Anyways, I think plenty other people do a better job than him and actually do the distance.

In his recording he disregards the score a lot.  Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.  So him cutting up the concerto isn't the only reason why I don't like it.  It just adds to my discontent.

And then you have people listen to his recordings and go like 'hey I see what you were trying to do there!'. And they either decide to change it or play it similarly, like in Bolet's masterclass.

And that's how I think it's good for studying purposes, you can kinda see what Rach's intentions were.  But when it comes to listening just for listening, I'll stick to someone else...

[thalbergmad]

Dang that's a good point...  Cause competitions want perfection.

Taste changes over time and what was considered good form 80 years ago, might well be considered lunacy today.

I am in no doubt that even a mighty pianist such as Rosenthal at the height of his powers would be thrown out of every major competition in the first round.

Thal

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Taste changes over time and what was considered good form 80 years ago, might well be considered lunacy today.

I am in no doubt that even a mighty pianist such as Rosenthal at the height of his powers would be thrown out of every major competition in the first round.

Thal

Yo I sent you something your fresh messages.

[ahinton]

Taste changes over time and what was considered good form 80 years ago, might well be considered lunacy today.

I am in no doubt that even a mighty pianist such as Rosenthal at the height of his powers would be thrown out of every major competition in the first round.

How right you are on all counts, sadly! (quoth he who is not remotely in love with Valentina Lisitsa, an admission that I thought appropriate to make here given the thread topic)...

Best,

Alistair

[vladimir_gouldowsky]

Thal is right because Rosenthal (and masters of his calibre) would have no business in competitions designed to select 'true servants' of art...

“We no longer want 'true servants' of art; what we need are masters.”
- Rosenthal

[ronde_des_sylphes]

I would rather leave it to people who know this concerto (like Jorge Bolet) to sing Rachmaninoff's praises.

Amen.

Or Earl Wild, who writes "In his Piano Concerto no.3, R. made a few small cuts in his original score that he felt made the piece more cohesive and worked better musically. Since the 1970s, all pianists have performed the original, uneditied score, and today musicians and musicologists degrade any performance or recording that employs R.'s requested cuts.... musicologists and performers who behave in this manner have never composed music...  By listenening carefully (especially the second movement), you can hear his creative mind at work. In the most subtle of ways, his improvisational additions in the left hand augment the desired sonorites and textures." etc, etc.

And I'll bet that Bolet and Wild knew and understood the concerto, not only better than anyone on this forum, but better than Lisitsa also.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

And I'll bet that Bolet and Wild knew and understood the concerto, not only better than anyone on this forum, but better than Lisitsa also.

I was a little disappointed in lisitsas third...

[ajspiano]

The bolet masterclasses gave me the impression that he had discussed the work with rachmaninoff personally. He also clearly knows the work intimately enough to identify very subtle parts of any individual interpretation. This is ofcourse at least in part just general musical mastery but its obvious that he understands the concerto like the back of his hand.

That scene where they are working on the latter part of the cadenza is very telling. Where he's talking about the significance of the dissonance, or rather drawing that understanding out of the student and getting him to place prioritized interpretive value on every single note. As well as other examples where he stops students mid performance to remark on their failure to bring out some interior secondary line, or the necessity to bring forth a secondary component very prominently to better facilitate the orchestras ability to keep with the pianists time.

..Hardly means that lisitsa doesn't know it well though. Hell, i know the thing bloody well backwards in my head but I can't even begin to play it nearly as well as Val can (if at all really).

.....

On the topic of lisitsa bashing..

Pianists of such technical caliber, and with a genuine passion for music (which she obviously has if you do even the slightest bit of reading about her history), always have a solid musical/interpretive understanding, but also stand to gain a great deal from receiving feedback from another pianist at that level - no matter how refined or unrefined their ideas already are. Variations on how to approach to a musical idea (and life experience) make the difference in conveying more emotion, not a failure to approach the idea at all.

A (subjectively) better performance from one pianist hardly reflects a lesser general musical understanding in the other without further investigation.

.........

You don't have to like her, and it may even sometimes be fair to argue that her performances are subpar compared to other masters -  but the "unmusical" type comments are just such rubbish..

I'll never understand how all the arm-chair concert pianists on youtube comment about "unmusical" performances from pianists with practically flawless technique, while in the same breath  perhaps just beginning to discover with their attempts to play not nearly that well that musical ideas and sound image are imperative to a successful technical execution.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

On the topic of lisitsa bashing..

Pianists of such technical caliber, and with a genuine passion for music (which she obviously has if you do even the slightest bit of reading about her history), always have a solid musical/interpretive understanding, but also stand to gain a great deal from receiving feedback from another pianist at that level - no matter how refined or unrefined their ideas already are. Variations on how to approach to a musical idea (and life experience) make the difference in conveying more emotion, not a failure to approach the idea at all.

A (subjectively) better performance from one pianist hardly reflects a lesser general musical understanding in the other without further investigation.

.........

You don't have to like her, and it may even sometimes be fair to argue that her performances are subpar compared to other masters -  but the "unmusical" type comments are just such rubbish..

I'll never understand how all the arm-chair concert pianists on youtube comment about "unmusical" performances from pianists with practically flawless technique, while in the same breath  perhaps just beginning to discover with their attempts to play not nearly that well that musical ideas and sound image are imperative to a successful technical execution.

I doubt anyone is disputing her technical prowess or enthusiasm. However, I find some of the self-aggrandizing nonsense on her videos cringeworthy. On her Rossini-Thalberg Barber of Seville (a performance of hers which I do actually like, we find this from her "Most of Tr etudes are not difficult at all. But non of them is as hard as this piece." which I just can't agree with at all. This particular "armchair concert pianist" (if that was directed at me, inter alia) has played quite a few Thalberg paraphrases and half of the TEs, not necessarily to her level, but I recall reading that years ago and it stuck in my mind as arrant nonsense - it's not even the hardest of Thalberg's paraphrases, which are usually easier than they sound. Or her introductory comments to Liszt's El Contrabandista? They appear directed towards the conclusion that she's a better pianist than Pletnev and Liszt himself. And I tried out the skips passage she's going on about: didn't think it was that hard. All of this might be marketing, but it's thoroughly put me off, and there are surely more interesting pianists out there.

[ajspiano]

I doubt anyone is disputing her technical prowess or enthusiasm. However, I find some of the self-aggrandizing nonsense on her videos cringeworthy. On her Rossini-Thalberg Barber of Seville (a performance of hers which I do actually like, we find this from her "Most of Tr etudes are not difficult at all. But non of them is as hard as this piece." which I just can't agree with at all. This particular "armchair concert pianist" (if that was directed at me, inter alia) has played quite a few Thalberg paraphrases and half of the TEs, not necessarily to her level, but I recall reading that years ago and it stuck in my mind as arrant nonsense - it's not even the hardest of Thalberg's paraphrases, which are usually easier than they sound. Or her introductory comments to Liszt's El Contrabandista? They appear directed towards the conclusion that she's a better pianist than Pletnev and Liszt himself. And I tried out the skips passage she's going on about: didn't think it was that hard. All of this might be marketing, but it's thoroughly put me off, and there are surely more interesting pianists out there.

The armchair concert pianist comment wasn't directed at anyone here. I think I just got a bit carried away thinking about some of the arrogant rubbish I've seen on youtube, nor was it even specifically about comments on Lisitsa so much as just any performance. People are very ready to exclaim that a musical performance is bad or unskillful when really all they mean is it just doesnt quite match up to the way they would like to hear the piece...

The difficulty thing could be marketing, could also be an unscientific emotional response to a topic that is both subjective and also largely a perceived experience rather than an actual quantifiable thing. I don't think she makes a habit of teaching so I doubt she gauges any given challenge based on anything other than her own personal experience and path of development.

..but marketing is an equally likely option. I wouldn't comment myself, I haven't studied any TEs as yet, and beyond a certain point I personally classify everything as hard with no real variable scale.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

People are very ready to exclaim that a musical performance is bad or unskillful when really all they mean is it just doesnt quite match up to the way they would like to hear the piece...

Very true.

Re the difficulty, I suspect marketing, but it's possible that she's one of the "learnt all TEs by the age of 20" type pianists, and thus they seem relatively easier than they are. I find it very difficult to believe that anyone coming afresh simultaneously to that particular fantasy and to Feux Follets or Chasse-Neige would not consider the Liszt harder. The Contrabandista comments surely have to be marketing.

[ahinton]

The armchair concert pianist comment wasn't directed at anyone here. I think I just got a bit carried away thinking about some of the arrogant rubbish I've seen on youtube, nor was it even specifically about comments on Lisitsa so much as just any performance. People are very ready to exclaim that a musical performance is bad or unskillful when really all they mean is it just doesnt quite match up to the way they would like to hear the piece...

The difficulty thing could be marketing, could also be an unscientific emotional response to a topic that is both subjective and also largely a perceived experience rather than an actual quantifiable thing. I don't think she makes a habit of teaching so I doubt she gauges any given challenge based on anything other than her own personal experience and path of development.

..but marketing is an equally likely option. I wouldn't comment myself, I haven't studied any TEs as yet, and beyond a certain point I personally classify everything as hard with no real variable scale.

Well, I have no more interest in Lisitsa bashing than I do in Lisitsa worshipping; as I've said before, she's competent, she's genuine about what she does when she's playing (as distinct from some of the occasions on which she's talking about her work) and there are plenty of worse pianists out there - but even to think to speak of her in the same breath as, say, Cherkassky, Michelangeli, Ogdon, Cziffra, Lipatti, Stevenson, Argerich, Bolet, Hamelin, Pollini, Medtner or Rachmaninoff (OK now, j_menz?!) borders on the absurd.

[outin]

Well, I have no more interest in Lisitsa bashing than I do in Lisitsa worshipping; as I've said before, she's competent, she's genuine about what she does when she's playing (as distinct from some of the occasions on which she's talking about her work) and there are plenty of worse pianists out there - but even to think to speak of her in the same breath as, say, Cherkassky, Michelangeli, Ogdon, Cziffra, Lipatti, Stevenson, Argerich, Bolet, Hamelin, Pollini, Medtner or Rachmaninoff (OK now, j_menz?!) borders on the absurd.

On the other hand...dead pianists are dead pianists, so comparing the living ones to them is kind of useless anyway (we won't be able to listen to them live anymore)...times change, listeners change. I assume that some of the younger audiences would not appreciate the playing of someone like Michelangeli (calm and easy looking) but would rather like something more flashy.

I think Lisitsa is doing a good job spreading the joy of piano music, is a good role model and has worked hard enough for her success, even though personally I am not touched by her playing the way I am with some other pianists.

[ahinton]

On the other hand...dead pianists are dead pianists, so comparing the living ones to them is kind of useless anyway (we won't be able to listen to them live anymore)...times change, listeners change. I assume that some of the younger audiences would not appreciate the playing of someone like Michelangeli (calm and easy looking) but would rather like something more flashy.

Some might indeed, but not, I suspect, Stevenson or Hamelin, the two pianists from my list who are NOT dead!

I think Lisitsa is doing a good job spreading the joy of piano music, is a good role model and has worked hard enough for her success, even though personally I am not touched by her playing the way I am with some other pianists.

Fair points, with which I could broadly agree.

Best,

Alistair