What do you think about the afterlife

[littletune]

I was just wondering what people think... and I don't mean just heaven... but just whatever after this life.

For a while now I have been watching a lot of things about this, I think for about two months or something... I just couldn't stop watching, I was a little worried that maybe I was going to die soon cause I got so interested in that but now my bird died.    And I'm not sure if I believe or not, but I know that if there is afterlife animals go there too! cause noone will tell me they don't have souls or something cause I can feel their souls (more than from some people!).

So yes I don't know if people want to talk about this and I wouldn't want people to start arguing about it or something! But I would just like to know what people think and how people explain it to themselves and also if anyone had any strange experiences that have to do with the afterlife or with some signs about it or whatever. Because I had a few. And I am very very scientific in this way I guess I always want to understand everything!!! When I was a little kid I didn't even like fairytails all that much cause they didn't make sense to me. I always wanted to understand everything I always wanted things to be logical. So I don't think anyone could be more sceptical than me!!!  But I think there's soooo much people don't know and can't understand yet that you can't just say oh this is completely impossible. And I want to figure it out!!! I feel like I have to! I was also always thinking about the universe and space and time and all that since I can remember and I had some "theories" before I started to watch about the afterlife and near death experiences and all that and so many things go so well with my "theories".
But I don't know, I am not a person who could just believe something because others would tell me so or because all other people would believe so.... I need to find an explanation for how something could be before I can completely believe it! I will write about some of my strange experiences later and maybe even about my "theories" ... but for now this, if anyone wants to say something about it... and if not maybe later. 

[outin]

Littletune, it's just normal to think about things like this every now and then, especially when you've lost someone.

I know there's nothing after we die. That's it. Can't prove it, I just know. It is not depressing or sad, it just feels right. We live and then we die. The same goes for animals and plants. Only things like rocks can be "forever" (even things have their limits actually). I would find the idea of people being somewhere as something after they die disturbing and unnatural.

The only thing about dying that bothers me is that it can happen anytime (I'd prefer to know in good time before) and it probably will happen sooner than I would want. I might very well die before I have learnt to play even one Chopin ballade. Or see what the world looks like in 50 years. If I could choose I think I wouldn't mind living forever, but not as some immaterial being but as I am now.

[Bob]

This is the most I've been able to come up with....


Everything, everyone will die eventually.  Everything is in motion all time.

The body will wear out.  I think we can figure out and overcome the aging process at some point but we haven't yet.  You get old, things wear out.  By the end I'm thinking it's like having an old car, a royal pain.  Add in some pain and things not working well or at all (lower quality of life, less dignity) and death will probably be a nice alternative.  Nothing being better than suffering.  Although when the times comes, I'd probably still pick suffering over dying but eventually.... that's going to get old and I think I'd just want out.

I imagine it's probably not that bad.  Probably like going to sleep.  Plus, if your brain floods the body with things that feel good, it might not be so unpleasant.  Suffering for years before death sounds worse.  Or losing your mind or having your quality of life drop hugely.  

You go to sleep, you don't remember anything.  If your brain/body is no longer functioning, you've got nothing to perceive with.  In the "normal" sense you won't be aware of anything.

I think we're "our bodies" too, but we sit mainly in the brain.  You can lose a limb and you're still you.  You can't lose certain parts of your brain. You won't be there anymore.  Somehow the brain retains memories.  If the brain shuts down when you die, I wonder if -- if you still exist after death -- if you still retain those memories.

Maybe we exist as energy or something beyond what science can detect.  Maybe another dimension.  who knows?  Maybe we just become energy after death but don't really do much with the physical world anymore.  Maybe we're somewhere else.  Maybe we're something/someone else, reincarnated.  Or maybe there's a soul that captures the essence of our experience/memory while we're alive.

No one else knows.  If they did, everyone would know about it.  

Animals have personalities.  I agree on that.  Some of those animals taste good too.  I would imagine the same thing that happens to us happens to animals.  I'm not sure where the cut off is though -- Consciousness?  Insects?  Plants?  Fish?

It's going to be tough to prove anything.  If someone has a vision, even if everyone has the same vision, it can be explained by the brain dying.  Bright light? That's just what the brain does when it runs out of oxygen.  You'd need many people all independently saying the same thing, something that they couldn't possibly know otherwise and where each person knows the same thing.  Bright lights don't cut it.

And if no one else has figured it out by now -- And there's a great interest in it by everyone -- it's doubtful you'll figure it out either. Not that anyone will stop trying though.

Nobody's ever come back.  The most we can do is postpone it a bit. Even then, with healthy eating and exercise, how much do you really gain?  Maybe sixty years at the most?  Dying at age 60 vs. age 120?  Nobody's living past 120.  Even if that edge gets pushed... It's still going to happen anyway.

Even if they figured out some way to keep people alive... Then what?  The planet has seven going on ten billion people as it is.  We'd have to get off the planet probably, unless we existed as software or something that's not taking up space and resources.  Technology takes awhile to figure out... Are they really going to figure out and overcome death in the next 100 years?  And even if they do, are they going to pick Joe Blow to preserve? 

I'd still be in favor of anything that would put it off though.  Although I've heard even if we lived forever, after about 400 years statistics catches up and you'd get hit by a car or something.  An accident.  

Another property of death -- Permanence.  That person will never do anything more.  Nothing will ever change in their life again. Everything is done and frozen.  And the living can't communicate with them again.  Forever.  Or until their own death since we don't know what happens, but at least in their lifetime, they're not communicating with the person who died again.

Afterlife?  Next state?  Nothing?  Who knows?

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Well the default claim is that there's nothing after death, unless evidence arises.

So I'll go with that.  Game over.  Kinda like sleeping without a dream.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Your bird is lucky because he died.  Most people never die, because they will have never been born.

I hope that little sentiment should cheer you up a bit.
 

[p2u_]

I was just wondering what people think... and I don't mean just heaven... but just whatever after this life.

I'd like to answer this in Krishnamurti style if you don't mind. You don't have to reply; I just want you to start thinking for yourself and not depend on anything said here.

First of all, littletune, you have to answer the question: do you believe people (and perhaps animals) have a soul? If you don't, then you know the answer to your question is "There's nothing after death".

If you do, then how do you define the soul? It must be something beyond the physical, something timeless, something that can survive death.

The fact that there is no proof for either scenario (nothing after death or something after death) means nothing; it is not really important. It's what you believe and hope for NOW that should make you happy.

Paul

[cmg]

I'd like to answer this in Krishnamurti style if you don't mind. You don't have to reply; I just want you to start thinking for yourself and not depend on anything said here.


Paul

Ah, Krishnamurti!  Good advice, Paul.  

Littletune, among other amazing things Krishnamurti said was do not look to anyone but yourself to provide the answer to your question re: afterlife, death, etc.  If you find that person who claims he or she can answer you, then you've found an easy way out.  It becomes not a certainty,  not knowledge or hard fact, but a belief system (remember Santa Claus?).  You BELIEVE, because this person of authority says it's so, but you yourself don't really experience it as truth.  You just take it on faith.  Faith is not necessarily truth.  (Santa Claus, Tooth Fairy, Valentina Lisitsa, etc., just kidding about Valentina -- I think she's pretty swell!)

Taking things on faith is the standard way people go with this daunting question.  Why?  Because it's the easy way out.  To prove to yourself that there is more to you than your mortal body is accomplished in Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam through meditative practices.  Another word for that is "mysticism," and it's the secret core of ALL religions.  

Meditation, despite the various technical means to do it (whirling dervishes, rosary beads, etc.) is simply closing your eyes, counting your breaths and willfully moving away all thoughts that get in the way of just contemplating the silence within you.

With practice, in a very short period of time meditating only 10 minutes a day, you can totally still the mind, make thoughts stop and the "Emptiness" that arises in that silence provides the answer.  And the answer cannot be verbalized.  You just feel it.  It's an ancient practice that is the core of every religious system.,  But few people have the discipline to do it.

But you're a pianist!  You KNOW discipline.

The answer is inside you.  Not outside you.  Krishnamurti taught me this.

As to living in this form forever, well, I can only refer everyone to the Second Law of Thermodynamics.  We MUST come to an end.  Everything has, does, and will.  But that "end" only refers to our physical form.

Chopin's music LIVES!!!!    

[thalbergmad]

Evidence for the afterlife and reincarnation is fascinating but not conclusive, nor will it ever be.

My own experiences of retrogressional hypnotism tends to reinforce my belief that we keep on being reborn and carry on developing spiritually.

Only a few weeks ago, I watched my mother slowly die of cancer, an event that left me unwilling to go on myself. It is of some comfort to me that she is in a better place and her spirit will live forever. If that is not the case, I fail to see the point of life in the first place.

Thal

[Bob]

On the positive side, I suppose we'll all have an answer someday. 

Or not.  We won't be aware of it or anything.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

 (Santa Claus, Tooth Fairy, Valentina Lisitsa, etc., just kidding about Valentina --  

I was about to spam a giant wall of  if you weren't kidding lol.

[ted]

I am so sorry about your Mum, Thal. I went through that precise harrowing process with my mother. My only suggestion for you is to grieve in your own way and that way alone, not how other people say you should. Know that all of us here are saddened and thinking of you.

[thalbergmad]

Thanks Ted, Your kind words are of comfort.

Luv

Thal

[cmg]

My condolences, as well, Thal.  

I brought my mother home to die, at her request.  The experience was, yes, harrowing, and humbling.  It burned away a lot of my egotism.  In fact, almost all of it.  My father died some years before her.  

As the years pass, they fill a space in you that's rather remarkable.  I won't say "miraculous," since I don't believe in things like that.  But I feel and speak to my parents every day of my life. They are there.

Feel what you have to feel.  Then stop thinking and feeling by distracting yourself with practice, work, bathing the dog, feeding the cat.  Keep moving forward, but reserve moments to feel what you have to feel.  Don't sit in those spots for too long, however.  Healing comes from those spots in small doses.  SMALL doses.

Best wishes,

Michael

[thalbergmad]

Very good advice my friend, but it is very difficult to get moving again.

Not touched my banjo or piano for months and my activity here has been limited.

The funeral is on Monday, so perhaps when that is done I will be in a better position.

Luv

Thal

[cmg]

I understand that inertia of grief so well.

I had a leave of absence from graduate school (to take care of my mother) and my piano teacher,  after my mother's death, and after my absence grew longer and longer, sent me a telegram that altered things for me:  He wrote, "You work will help you heal.  I know you have no spirt for it now, but come back anyway.  Work heals."

I took his advice and the darkness slowly began to lift.  I know, it somehow feels disrespectful to return to "normalcy," but it's the answer as soon as you can.  Take your own tempo, but try to get back into the flow of things as soon as you can, Thal.

Best,

M

I'll be thinking of you and your family on Monday.

[emill]

Evidence for the afterlife and reincarnation is fascinating but not conclusive, nor will it ever be.
Only a few weeks ago, I watched my mother slowly die of cancer, an event that left me unwilling to go on myself. It is of some comfort to me that she is in a better place and her spirit will live forever. If that is not the case, I fail to see the point of life in the first place.  Thal 

hello Thal,

I am so sorry for what you have been through, I lost my mother a few years back due to myasthenia gravis.  And I must say that death of a loved one is an experience which significantly transforms many of us, maybe to a large extent depending on the impact our loved ones had on our lives. I can sense from the way you express yourself that your mom had a great impact in your life .. so did my mother.

To Littletune: .... you must be 14 now?  and I admire you for delving on this basic question that even the great philosophers of life have not answered.  They say that as science which is based on evidence and logic grows,  belief in religion, the paranormal, the afterlife diminishes. Why? because these are based on FAITH.  Faith is difficult to explain but it does not necessarily mean that it is superstition or plainly mambo-jumbo.  In fact, in innumerable instances science has proven faith to be true. In an attempt to simplify, this is how I will look at it.

Until 2-3 decades ago your father would say that he has faith that you are his daughter. This faith was based on his love and trust on your mother... on the similarities of the color of your skin, eyes, hair or physical attributes to him, your mom and his and her relatives.   All of these were circumstantial, like many aspects of Faith. It was only your mother who had absolute proof that you were her daughter because she gave birth to you and that is the evidence.    There is something inexplicable that makes a man continue to believe in something which he can not explain.

Then came DNA testing .....  and science proved what men in faith believed in.  Whether there is life after death or whether there is GOD, many have faith that these do exist.  I have faith that they exist and that there is life after death.  The absence of proof at the moment can just mean that man's knowledge has not reached that level of understanding yet and/or we do not have the scientific means or tools to investigate, to measure or quantify any evidence so that it remains still in the realm of Faith. I hope I am making any sense.

I am sorry about your bird .... makes me remember how much my kids cried when our pet dog died.

Happy new year to you Littletune.

[Bob]

What would it take to know more?  It's kind of on or off. I suppose something with AI to create artificial intelligence, something non-human with actual consciousness.  Or if they figured out how to revive those people who were cryogenically frozen.  That would be pretty freaky, although I imagine they would feel like they were just waking up from being asleep. 

If there is nothing, then we can spend forever chasing nothing, investing as much as we want in it and getting no results, no outcome.  I suppose it's possible it's something that's impossible to detect too, like if a 'soul' existed in another dimension that could never be detected in ours.

[Bob]

I was thinking... I imagine one day they'll be able to replace everything on a person, still have the same person but with better parts, a person that could live indefinitely.  That's still not going to answer any questions about an afterlife though.

I was thinking if you can replace a hand... Replace a limb... Replace everything piece by piece... Nanobots or whatever to replace pieces of the brain and all the wiring... Than you could upgrade a person.  And if you could do that... Why not also be able to copy things, make a copy of parts, pieces, and the whole thing?  If you've got a person in Body A and they go to sleep, you make a copy and have Body B, what happens if you wake them up?  Where is that person?  Body A I would think unless they were transferred somehow to Body B.  But then what's in Body B?  Or maybe they're both the person still?  One's just another identical copy, both wake up thinking they're the original. Bizarre... What if you made a copy of the whatever part is the conscious part while the person is still conscious, still having the copy connected so it's still that person and then slowly disconnect the two copies?  Where is the person then?  Or if that's yourself... Where do you end up?  I'd think you'd end up with either two copies or something would happen during separation and you'd be either there or here, one or the other, but not both.

That still doesn't answer anything about the afterlife though....

If the body and mind are not working, then the person doesn't exist the same way.  They would exist in a different way, if they still exist.  They wouldn't exist with their body or their mind or not in the same way.  And apparently wouldn't exist in any way we can detect.  They either don't exist or they do exist, either existing as themself still or as something else.  If they still exist, then they're existing somewhere or in some way that we aren't aware of.  And apparently there's no communication, just a one-way crossover.

For that matter, if you want to know about the afterlife, what about the 'before'life.  Where were you before you were born?

[Bob]

Which makes me think about artificial intelligence again.  If you connected up a model of the human brain that functioned the same way, is it going to have consciousness, ie be human?  Or... What if you create something that wasn't artificial?  If you created a Frankenstein person from scratch that was made out of the exact same materials as a person?  I imagine if you have all the parts and everything connected perfectly it's going to start running just like a person.  So where's the consciousness part coming from?

If there is a before and afterlife... What happened before that?  What happened originally?  Before Life 1.0?  And what happens when the universe expands and rips apart or there's another big bang, etc.?  If there is an actual end of things.  I suppose if everything separated to the point of atoms, we'd just wait around for it all to connect back or whatever the next event is.  We wouldn't have anything better to do.

For that matter, if we're just sitting around as beings in another dimension waiting for something capable of sustaining consciousness, are we really human?  Humans, etc. just happened to evolve on one planet in one place.  Where were we before that?  As still conscious pre-humans and then some creature before that... down to single cells a long time ago.  Haha... Where do you draw the line on that?  Or say an asteriod slams into the planet and pulverizes everything.  No Earth.  No people.  Just little bits floating around in space.  Then where are we?

[Bob]

More amusement...

Say there's is an energy being/soul thing.  Wouldn't it have to made out of something still?  And wouldn't there have to be some part of it, like a serial number, that's unique?  Otherwise, why am I not you or somebody else right now? 

And what if you started messing with that?  Change those parts around.  Or... What if that energy being/soul thing was destroyed or ceased to exist?  The before and afterlife of the soul idea again.

[Bob]

I suppose I'd go with consciousness being some unique pattern, existing within a certain part of the brain (because some people have that part damaged and they're not there anymore).  Existing in only one place.


Something equally freaky...  Where do you go when you're asleep?  It's going to happen tonight again.  Why don't you float away when you're asleep?  So we must be stuck somehow in that unique part of the brain.    But then you've got the cryo people and I bet they would wake up right where they left off if you unfroze them and revived them hundreds of years later.  Just like they were asleep, not like they went somewhere.  Maybe they didn't go anywhere?  Or maybe they didn't remember or something doesn't cross over, if there is another place to cross over to?  Maybe you just need that unique pattern that is you and boom, you appear there?

[whartley]

I do believe that there is an afterlife and a perfect, holy God that we all will have to answer to.  I know some of you will shoot me down or won't believe it, but I believe that since we have rebelled against God, we all deserve God's wrath which is hell.  I also believe that God in His mercy sent His Son, Jesus Christ to die for our sins and bear God's wrath for us and rise again, defeating death and the grave.  It is by repenting and believing on Him that we can be saved from His wrath.  To those of you who aren't sure about it, I'd like to put Descartes' question to you.  If you're right and there is nothing, then we would have lived by a religion that teaches nothing but love, forgiveness, and moral living.  If I'm right on the other hand, where does that leave you?

[kinkokonko]

I think you are on crack.  You make some assumptions based on nothing. and then end this with old better hedge your bets idea.  Religion, also know as belief in God, has caused more grief than any other human invention.  It is so abhorrent it could only be invented by a primitive primate not unlike yourself

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Religion, also know as belief in God,

You can believe in a god and not be religious.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I feel like this thread is about to gat derailed.

Which were against littletunes wishes.

[Bob]

More fun ideas....

Take Person A.  Make A unconscious.  Make an exact copy of them, Person B.  Wake them up.  Where is Person A?  Probably still in Person A.  Person B....?  Maybe that one is a copy but still thinks it's the original.  This sounds a lot like that Arnold Schwarzenegger movie.   Say the situation is the same, but you don't wake up Person A.  I suppose Person B would still be a copy and would seem just like Person A.  Unless there's something so unique that it can't be copied.... And you really create invited two distinct souls in.  Person B being a brand new soul in this case.  But why not take the same situation, don't wake up Person A, wake up just Person B and have Soul A take up residence in Person B?  

And if that could be done.... Why couldn't you recreate the 'soul' part of a person and bring their soul back into it?  ie Revive someone who's been dead?  Just build a new machine for them to inhabit, get just the right 'soul serial number' for the person part, revive them, and voila, you've brought them back from the dead.  Except you either got their body/brain/etc copied nicely or you didn't, so they might not have their memories.  It would be difficult to tell if you brought the right soul in I suppose.  If you did get it all right, I imagine they would wake up just like waking out of sleep and wouldn't have any memory of an afterlife.

Still not really helpful there for figuring out if there actually is an afterlife.  Even in this case it would be pretty tricky to know that you had the original Soul A and not just a new soul in the Person B machine with memories, etc. all from Person A.  Unless you knew for sure how the 'soul serial number' thing worked and had that down.



Another aspect... The world's population is always increasing.  Seven billion going on ten billion.... Where are all these souls coming from?  If they do come back, isn't it possible your soul is on the planet right now several other times?  That's assuming there's a limited amount of souls I guess, and just limited to our planet, etc.

[Bob]

Darnit...  That means there could be just one soul, and it keep going around and around.  We could all be the same soul. 

Which means I'm typing to myself but you don't remember it or haven't gotten around to being me yet so you haven't done it yet.  *Bob wonders if it's pointless explaining this to you/himself if you're just going to forget it again later anyway.*

[Bob]

If there is some kind of energy being/soul thing... There must be natural laws/physics/etc. that control that.  Some sort of structure we're not aware of.  I wouldn't think it would be a person/entity making decisions.  I'd go with some natural laws governing all that.



I also suppose afterlife-wise, if there are souls, and they're not in the body -- Unless they travel from one to the next immediately -- then they must go someplace.  Or we can't see/detect them at all and they're standing around while I'm in the bathroom.  *Bob darns those souls.*  And if there is another place(s) where they are, then there would be natural laws/physics/etc. that govern that place too.

[Bob]

So we've got afterlife, beforelife, souls, dimensions, consciousness, sleep....

And reality.  We'd have to know what reality is too. 

Because it's also possible everything we know is just one giant computer simulation and nothing is real, like the Matrix.  Although they still have the same soul issue too I suppose....  I saw an article about scientists who were going to run some tests to determine if this is all a simulation.  I didn't read the article though.

Just one more detail, what is reality?, to iron out along the way.

[p2u_]

@ All:

Science and conditioned scientific thinking CANNOT answer all the questions, because the "conclusions" science comes to are all based on too many assumptions that sometimes have to be corrected. Einstein's theory of relativity, for example, doesn't seem to work under all circumstances. What scientists "proved" to be very good for your health ten years or so ago is now declared harmful by other scientists, etc.

Second, our imagination is too limited to grasp it all. I mean: can you even begin to imagine what "endless" means? And "timeless"? Where is the end of the universe, for example? And why isn't there anything behind that universe? etc. If something ever started at a certain point in time, what was there before that? Nothing just happens from nothing.

Why not just acknowledge that we have no answer? If we are positive people, then all we have is HOPE. The battle between science and religion cannot be won; it is in itself pointless. It would just draw this topic into the wrong direction and leave a young person confused.

Paul

[cmg]

I feel like this thread is about to gat derailed.

Which were against littletunes wishes.

No, no, Bob doesn't EVER derail.  He may redirect, but he never derails.  

Bob, thanks for your input.  As usual, it's, well, thoughtful in an inexplicable, extraordinary way.  Maybe here's one thing to hang on to when all your intellectual resources tie you up in, well, intellectual versions of . . . duct tape on a lamp.  

It's called the PRESENT.  The only time we really have.  I mean, it's a foregone conclusion that the PAST is gone.  Dead.  Over, by definition.

And the FUTURE.  It means "that which has not yet happened."  In other words, it doesn't exist, yes?  Oh, we can imagine the future, but it can only be based on what we already know.  And that is the PAST.  Which is dead.  Great science fiction only does riffs on what we only know.  There's no "news" there.  

Okay.  So the PAST is dead.  

And the FUTURE, merely a fancy projection of the PAST, does not, by definition, exist yet.

So ... what's left??  The PRESENT.

When you hear that particular dissonance in a Chopin Nocturne that makes you want to cry.  When you hear the C-flat introduced in the final bars of Debussy's "Claire du lune" that makes you catch your breath . . . that moment when you know Debussy is calling you home, grabbing your attention, bringing you to the . . . PRESENT.

That's all there is.  Period.

That's where you, littletune, find that which never ends . . . one moment glued to the next and never-ending.  One PRESENT moving into another.

Thanks for questioning all of this, Bob.  You always make me think.  

 

[cmg]

hello Thal,

I am so sorry for what you have been through, I lost my mother a few years back due to myasthenia gravis.  And I must say that death of a loved one is an experience which significantly transforms many of us, maybe to a large extent depending on the impact our loved ones had on our lives. I can sense from the way you express yourself that your mom had a great impact in your life .. so did my mother.

To Littletune: .... you must be 14 now?  and I admire you for delving on this basic question that even the great philosophers of life have not answered.  They say that as science which is based on evidence and logic grows,  belief in religion, the paranormal, the afterlife diminishes. Why? because these are based on FAITH.  Faith is difficult to explain but it does not necessarily mean that it is superstition or plainly mambo-jumbo.  In fact, in innumerable instances science has proven faith to be true. In an attempt to simplify, this is how I will look at it.

Until 2-3 decades ago your father would say that he has faith that you are his daughter. This faith was based on his love and trust on your mother... on the similarities of the color of your skin, eyes, hair or physical attributes to him, your mom and his and her relatives.   All of these were circumstantial, like many aspects of Faith. It was only your mother who had absolute proof that you were her daughter because she gave birth to you and that is the evidence.    There is something inexplicable that makes a man continue to believe in something which he can not explain.

Then came DNA testing .....  and science proved what men in faith believed in.  Whether there is life after death or whether there is GOD, many have faith that these do exist.  I have faith that they exist and that there is life after death.  The absence of proof at the moment can just mean that man's knowledge has not reached that level of understanding yet and/or we do not have the scientific means or tools to investigate, to measure or quantify any evidence so that it remains still in the realm of Faith. I hope I am making any sense.

I am sorry about your bird .... makes me remember how much my kids cried when our pet dog died.

Happy new year to you Littletune.

Happy New Year to you, sir.  And thank you for this.

[p2u_]

[...]Okay.  So the PAST is dead.  

And the FUTURE, merely a fancy projection of the PAST, does not, by definition, exist yet.

So ... what's left??  The PRESENT.

Aren't those actually assumptions, not facts?

One is no longer physically available to us, and the other one is not yet available to us, yes. I wonder if the past is really dead, though, and if the future is not already alive yet. What if we could manipulate with time? What if the past and the future were merely other dimensions we have no access to? I'm just referring to deja-vu experiences I had when visiting countries I had never been to before. I once traveled to Paris and was able to find my way there without city maps; a clear experience of "Haven't I been here before?"

When I was ten, I first heard a Russian Orthodox choir and the sound frightened me. Later on, I had many experiences with things that were Russian in origin. Now, I'm physically in Russia and I have a feeling I'm at home here, although I was born in Belgium (pure Flemish roots, I checked that) and became a naturalised Dutchman because my parents moved to Holland. What is that? Illusion?

I cannot even reasonably relate here what experiences, images I have seen about the future that came true later on, because you might think I'm some kind of weirdo.

P.S.: No, I don't drink alcohol and I don't smoke stuff that could intoxicate my mind. I must be crazy by nature. Glad it doesn't hurt, though.

Paul

[outin]

@Bob

It's not like I haven't thought about the option of living forever by getting my consciousness transferred into something more durable than my physical brain. I don't see it happening before it's too late for me, but should the opportunity rise, I'd take it no doubt. To finally be rid of the restrictions of this in many ways faulty body would be great. I see nothing negative about living virtually only. Would I then live forever? Probably not, because sooner or later something would go wrong...energy supply blocked, a virus contamination, getting mixed with someone elses stuff...

But then there might be a sort of "afterlife", like if someone pulled the plug, but saved the whole programming in another format, wouldn't that be considered afterlife then?

[costicina]

Thal, I'm deeply, truly sorry for your loss. I know what it means facing that monstruous grief. I experienced it, and it shattered my life at the roots...

[49410enrique]

Thal, I'm deeply, truly sorry for your loss. ...

I also share the deepest sentiments for Thal regarding his loss.

I am sorry. While I am not here to push my view of spirituality on anyone, I'd like to share that i will say a prayer for you (Thal), your mothers (soul/spirit), and your loved ones that those that loved her.

[littletune]

Thanks everyone for your comments! I'll need some time to read (and answer) all of them.

[littletune]

Littletune, it's just normal to think about things like this every now and then, especially when you've lost someone.

I know there's nothing after we die. That's it. Can't prove it, I just know. It is not depressing or sad, it just feels right. We live and then we die. The same goes for animals and plants. Only things like rocks can be "forever" (even things have their limits actually). I would find the idea of people being somewhere as something after they die disturbing and unnatural.

The only thing about dying that bothers me is that it can happen anytime (I'd prefer to know in good time before) and it probably will happen sooner than I would want. I might very well die before I have learnt to play even one Chopin ballade. Or see what the world looks like in 50 years. If I could choose I think I wouldn't mind living forever, but not as some immaterial being but as I am now.

Really that feels right to you? that there's just nothing? I don't think that feels right to me. 

[cmg]

Aren't those actually assumptions, not facts?

One is no longer physically available to us, and the other one is not yet available to us, yes. I wonder if the past is really dead, though, and if the future is not already alive yet. What if we could manipulate with time?

I cannot even reasonably relate here what experiences, images I have seen about the future that came true later on, because you might think I'm some kind of weirdo.

P.S.: No, I don't drink alcohol and I don't smoke stuff that could intoxicate my mind. I must be crazy by nature. Glad it doesn't hurt, though.

Paul

Sure, we can manipulate time:  it's OUR fabrication.  It's what WE invented for convenience.  Memory enabled us to keep alive the past.  But, really, the past is past.  Gone.  Dead, but for our memories.  The future:  well, it literally means that which has not happened yet.  It doesn't exist any more, aside from our speculations, than does the past.  And, again, we can only imagine a future based on our past or the collective unconscious (also the past) of our species.

So, let's see now:  the future, which doesn't exist, is a projection of the past which is dead.



And, Paul?  Would you please change the water in your bong?  I think you're smoking weird residue and don't know it.    

[littletune]

Bob! You were thinking a lot about this!!! I'll need some time to read all of your posts!!

Your bird is lucky because he died.  Most people never die, because they will have never been born.

I hope that little sentiment should cheer you up a bit.
 

I guess you could look at it that way... Thanks for trying to cheer me up

I don't really like the idea of sleeping, cause I don't like sleeping all that much, for awhile I didn't even want to sleep and I felt like panicking when I knew I'll have to go to sleep.  

[littletune]

Thanks Paul and Cmg! Yes I think you should find an answer for yourself too... that's why I want to figure it out!  Thanks for your explanations!!

[littletune]

Evidence for the afterlife and reincarnation is fascinating but not conclusive, nor will it ever be.

My own experiences of retrogressional hypnotism tends to reinforce my belief that we keep on being reborn and carry on developing spiritually.

Only a few weeks ago, I watched my mother slowly die of cancer, an event that left me unwilling to go on myself. It is of some comfort to me that she is in a better place and her spirit will live forever. If that is not the case, I fail to see the point of life in the first place.

Thal

I'm really sorry about your mum Thal!  Cancer is such a horrible thing!!!!! So many people and animals around me died of cancer I watched a lot about past lives too it's very interesting! I believe it could be very true too (even though I didn't want to believe it for a long time). But whatever the real truth is, I know for sure that your mum wouldn't want you to be sad and stop doing the things you love Thal!!! So please don't stop playing your banjo and piano and doing other things that you love!! Do them for your mum! Cause that's what she wants!! Hugs to you Thal! 

[cmg]

You're welcome as always, little tune!

There's a wonderful movie playing in theaters right now, "Life of Pi." based on a famous, celebrated novel and it explores the questions you're asking.  

You should treat yourself to it.  I think you'll be very moved by it and encouraged.  

[clavile]

I do believe that there is an afterlife and a perfect, holy God that we all will have to answer to.  I know some of you will shoot me down or won't believe it, but I believe that since we have rebelled against God, we all deserve God's wrath which is hell.  I also believe that God in His mercy sent His Son, Jesus Christ to die for our sins and bear God's wrath for us and rise again, defeating death and the grave.  It is by repenting and believing on Him that we can be saved from His wrath.  To those of you who aren't sure about it, I'd like to put Descartes' question to you.  If you're right and there is nothing, then we would have lived by a religion that teaches nothing but love, forgiveness, and moral living.  If I'm right on the other hand, where does that leave you?

Whartley, I agree with you. In the end we will all have to answer to God.

If anybody believes there is an afterlife for their body or soul, then something had to create that soul. That person would be God. And if God created your soul, and is that powerful, you should certainly serve him.

If you chose not to believe God, and follow Him, in the end you will be judged, and will find yourself serving eternally under His wrath in Hell. If you choose to follow God, faithfully obeying him and following His word, you will have eternal life in Heaven.

Feel free to shoot me down. If you can believe in an afterlife, and soul, certainly Whartley and I should be able to believe in an afterlife, soul, and God who created the soul in the afterlife.

[littletune]

To Littletune: .... you must be 14 now?  and I admire you for delving on this basic question that even the great philosophers of life have not answered.  They say that as science which is based on evidence and logic grows,  belief in religion, the paranormal, the afterlife diminishes. Why? because these are based on FAITH.  Faith is difficult to explain but it does not necessarily mean that it is superstition or plainly mambo-jumbo.  In fact, in innumerable instances science has proven faith to be true. In an attempt to simplify, this is how I will look at it.

Until 2-3 decades ago your father would say that he has faith that you are his daughter. This faith was based on his love and trust on your mother... on the similarities of the color of your skin, eyes, hair or physical attributes to him, your mom and his and her relatives.   All of these were circumstantial, like many aspects of Faith. It was only your mother who had absolute proof that you were her daughter because she gave birth to you and that is the evidence.    There is something inexplicable that makes a man continue to believe in something which he can not explain.

Then came DNA testing .....  and science proved what men in faith believed in.  Whether there is life after death or whether there is GOD, many have faith that these do exist.  I have faith that they exist and that there is life after death.  The absence of proof at the moment can just mean that man's knowledge has not reached that level of understanding yet and/or we do not have the scientific means or tools to investigate, to measure or quantify any evidence so that it remains still in the realm of Faith. I hope I am making any sense.

I am sorry about your bird .... makes me remember how much my kids cried when our pet dog died.

Happy new year to you Littletune.

Hi Emill! Yes I am. I really like your explanation! It's funny cause my dad jokes a lot of times when someone would say how tall I am and he says: Yes I'm not sure who the real father is.   I think there's soooo much people don't know about the world that they shouldn't just say that something is not possible just cause they can't find proof for it.
And thank you so much for saying you're sorry about my bird! I'm not sure why but it means a lot, because sometimes it bothers me a little because when you say a person close to you died everyone is like I am so sorry, but when you tell people an animal close to you died people rarely say I'm sorry about your animal. And I know that that's just cause people are not used to it. Probably they think it's weird, but sometimes it makes you feel like people are not taking you seriously and respecting your feelings and the life of the animal that you love. Because it's not about what species or how related someone is to you, it's about how close you feel to them. That's why I would sometimes say to people that my brother died instead of my dog or bird or guinea pig, not because i would want to lie but because that's the only way people can understand and respect how I really feel. I understand sometimes some things are difficult for people to uderstand if they never felt them.
A very happy new year to you and your familly too!  

[littletune]

I do believe that there is an afterlife and a perfect, holy God that we all will have to answer to.  I know some of you will shoot me down or won't believe it, but I believe that since we have rebelled against God, we all deserve God's wrath which is hell.  I also believe that God in His mercy sent His Son, Jesus Christ to die for our sins and bear God's wrath for us and rise again, defeating death and the grave.  It is by repenting and believing on Him that we can be saved from His wrath.  To those of you who aren't sure about it, I'd like to put Descartes' question to you.  If you're right and there is nothing, then we would have lived by a religion that teaches nothing but love, forgiveness, and moral living.  If I'm right on the other hand, where does that leave you?

Yes I'm sure you're right in a lot of ways, but I don't think a perfect being would want wrath... I mean nothing but love and forgiveness doesn't really go well with wrath 

I think you are on crack.  You make some assumptions based on nothing. and then end this with old better hedge your bets idea.  Religion, also know as belief in God, has caused more grief than any other human invention.  It is so abhorrent it could only be invented by a primitive primate not unlike yourself

Please lets not be mean and disrespectful! It's not good for anything! Thank you!

[cmg]

littletune, there's this great scene in the Jodi Foster movie, "Contact," where she plays a very, very logical scientist and a friend questions her about belief in something beyond her scientific observations.

She laughs at him and says "there is a proof for everything that exists."  

Then he says, "Did your father love you?"

She's a little bewildered at the question and answers, "Yes!  Of course."

Her friend then says, "Prove it."



She can't, of course.  But she knows it is true.  

Some things we know are just true.

[littletune]

I feel like this thread is about to gat derailed.

Which were against littletunes wishes.

Thank you for thinking about my wishes! you are very nice!  

No, no, Bob doesn't EVER derail.  He may redirect, but he never derails.  

I don't think he was talking about Bob. I think he was talking about "whartley" and "kinkokonko".

[clavile]

Yes I'm sure you're right in a lot of ways, but I don't think a perfect being would want wrath... I mean nothing but love and forgiveness doesn't really go well with wrath 


Please lets not be mean and disrespectful! It's not good for anything! Thank you!

You don't have to have the wrath if you believe in God and follow him.

Imagine you're a parent, and your child keeps on running through the house recklessly, while screaming and breaking things. If you told him to stop, and he kept on, wouldn't you become angry after a while?

This is what God is like. He gave us the Bible, His word, that we might believe in it, and obey Him, and learn about Him. When we break His word, and fail to obey Him, like a parent, he becomes frustrated, and eventually angry. The Bible says that God is long-suffering. He waits for us to obey Him, patiently, but eventually He will become angered.

Google Exodus  34: 6-7.

[littletune]

You're welcome as always, little tune!

There's a wonderful movie playing in theaters right now, "Life of Pi." based on a famous, celebrated novel and it explores the questions you're asking.  

You should treat yourself to it.  I think you'll be very moved by it and encouraged.  

Thank you for telling me about it I didn't know it was about that... I have to check it out!