liszt études from easiest to hardest

[lalo57]

So, I'm attempting to enter the Paris conservatoire and am looking for a nice repertoire for the audition. They ask for a chopin étude (currently working on op 10 no 12) and another étude by any composer. So I thought of Liszt
 Would you please rank all of his études (trascendental, paganini, concert études, un sospiro, la leggierezza, etc, etc) thank you )))))  oh and I don't speak English perfectly so forgive my flaws

[flashyfingers]

So, I'm attempting to enter the Paris conservatoire and am looking for a nice repertoire for the audition. They ask for a chopin étude (currently working on op 10 no 12) and another étude by any composer. So I thought of Liszt
 Would you please rank all of his études (trascendental, paganini, concert études, un sospiro, la leggierezza, etc, etc) thank you )))))  oh and I don't speak English perfectly so forgive my flaws

the transcendental are pretty hard! The concert etudes are probably next, and the paganini are pretty easy compared to most (excluding la campanella, of course.) There are always exceptions to any difficulty ranking! I am currently working on the 3 concert etudes, and I am able to work on a few pages at a time, on each one of the etudes. Out of those, I would say the last etude in the set is the easiest.

I really think pick a different Chopin etude, and for your second etude, consider a Debussy etude.

[perprocrastinate]

From the Transcendental Etudes, I'd say that Nos. 4, 5, and 12 are the most difficult.

[cabbynum]

I don't like rankings but for a general idea

Douze grandes etudes are nearly impossible.

Transcendental are very very difficult
 
Paganini etudes S.140 about the same as transcendental etudes...

Paganini etudes S.141 not as bad as the 140 but still extremely challenging

Two concert etudes with Gnomerienen taking the lead here

3 concert etudes I disagree completely with flashy fingers here. I believe these are the easiest of the liszt etudes. And the Paganini are by no means easy at all. Take a look at 1, 2, 3 , 4 and 6 of the original, make sure to see both versions of no.4

[flashyfingers]

Cabby, I did say that no. 3 of the concert etudes is the easiest. Also, the Paganini etudes have something missing, musically...They are much more simple sounding (yes, even including all the chromatic and melodic minor scale flourishes)  than the etudes that have Liszt's personal touch and sound obviously present.

[cabbynum]

I'm not going to argue difficulty or musical value. It's pointless to argue that.

[flashyfingers]

not musical value, but their harmonic content is very different.

[cabbynum]

When you phrase it the way you did it makes it sound as if it were over music value. I'm still not gonna argue difficulty. It's also pointless. My personal opinion happens to be very different from yours on this subject. That's it.

[david456103]

rough ordering:
grand version of transcendentals
transcendental 4, 5, 12
liszt paganini #3 and #6
rest of transcendental etudes
gnomenreigen/la leggiereza
etc.

[lalo57]

the transcendental are pretty hard! The concert etudes are probably next, and the paganini are pretty easy compared to most (excluding la campanella, of course.) There are always exceptions to any difficulty ranking! I am currently working on the 3 concert etudes, and I am able to work on a few pages at a time, on each one of the etudes. Out of those, I would say the last etude in the set is the easiest.

I really think pick a different Chopin etude, and for your second etude, consider a Debussy etude.

thank you    but why a different Chopin?

[flashyfingers]

When you phrase it the way you did it makes it sound as if it were over music value. I'm still not gonna argue difficulty. It's also pointless. My personal opinion happens to be very different from yours on this subject. That's it.

I agree that it is pointless to ARGUE difficulty. But I think we were agreeing that the 3 concert etudes are the easiest. However, the 1st of the 3 is played over a period of 10 minutes. Playing any piece for this amount of time is some serious concentration power.

Also, as far as musical value, that is not what I meant when I compared their tonality and harmonic content. Seriously, I promise! And I am sorry if this seemed to be the point of my argument. Honestly, I was just trying to point out that the styles are very different. This goes for comparing Chopin to Mozart, as well. And as far as the violin goes, I personally think that there is no definite harmonic structure when playing the violin, unless you are playing two or more parts.  And even then, a given scale degree based on key signature can only be a number of chords, based on roman numeral analysis, and there is no way to analyze the chords without a proper "counter" part. I believe that in these etudes, Liszt created a "counter" part via piano, to show exactly what the harmonies that Paganini was playing were. Counterpoint is not better than another type of music. So yes, I suppose when I stated my preference, I compared musical value based on personal preferences and ear. And I am so sorry to have been so rude.
 

[lalo57]

Btw guys if not Liszt what would you recommend? Debussy? Why? Or maybe moszkowski or Scriabin?

[cabbynum]

I agree that it is pointless to ARGUE difficulty. But I think we were agreeing that the 3 concert etudes are the easiest. However, the 1st of the 3 is played over a period of 10 minutes. Playing any piece for this amount of time is some serious concentration power.


 So yes, I suppose when I stated my preference, I compared musical value based on personal preferences and ear. And I am so sorry to have been so rude.
 

You clearly said the Paganini etudes were easier than the concert etudes so that's where I am disagreeing.
The violin is fully capable of creating harmonic structure.

No one called you rude, where is that coming from? I am
Simply disagreeing with you, no attack on you personally just a difference of opinion.

Sorry for any flares coming from me, I am not meaning to be rude. I just disagree with you here on something that has nothing to do with you as a person.




To the OP
I agree with FF to grab another Chopin op.10 no.12 is not a great choice.
Look at op.10 no.11 or 10 or 7 or 4 or 2 or 1 look at op.25 3, 4, 5, 6, 9, 10-12

For your second etude I think you should find one that you enjoy and that has plenty of challenges. For an audition I do not think it would be wise to throw in a popular one. It's also not smart to use a super unknown one I.e alkan, liszt is a good choice take a look at Paganini etude no.4 second version. It's all chords, look at that and if you can nail it... Then I will have a great amount of respect for you. Musically and technically that ones a beast.

[flashyfingers]

You clearly said the Paganini etudes were easier than the concert etudes so that's where I am disagreeing.
The violin is fully capable of creating harmonic structure.

No one called you rude, where is that coming from? I am
Simply disagreeing with you, no attack on you personally just a difference of opinion.

Sorry for any flares coming from me, I am not meaning to be rude. I just disagree with you here on something that has nothing to do with you as a person.




To the OP
I agree with FF to grab another Chopin op.10 no.12 is not a great choice.
Look at op.10 no.11 or 10 or 7 or 4 or 2 or 1 look at op.25 3, 4, 5, 6, 9, 10-12

For your second etude I think you should find one that you enjoy and that has plenty of challenges. For an audition I do not think it would be wise to throw in a popular one. It's also not smart to use a super unknown one I.e alkan, liszt is a good choice take a look at Paganini etude no.4 second version. It's all chords, look at that and if you can nail it... Then I will have a great amount of respect for you. Musically and technically that ones a beast.

It's no problem. Harmonically, the violin is tuned in 5ths, right? This is so the violinist can easily play diatonically (only scale or chromatic steps). Also, you can only play at the most, homophonically. Counterpoint in it's advanced form is polyphonic,and this cannot be done on the violin. (As far as I know...I'd love for you to show otherwise!) Again, not to argue against it's musicality, just pointing out some things.
And I didn't really say anyone was calling me rude, I was just being polite and apologizing if I was being offensive.

[cabbynum]

I never said polyphony. I'm done.

[lalo57]

Guys, guys.. Why does the revolutionary seem such a bad idea??? D: thank you for your help btw,

[cabbynum]

Guys, guys.. Why does the revolutionary seem such a bad idea??? D: thank you for your help btw,

Look if you're attempting to enter the Paris conservatoire then you shouldn't have to ask such silly questions. The revolutionary is played by everyone, that's why it's bad for auditions. If you can play it so extremely well then go ahead, but it's be safer to pick a less popular one.

But really if you're at a level to be considering that type of school then you shouldn't be asking this kind of question. Sight read a few and see what's easy and hard for you it's pointless to ask us because what's easy for me may be extremely difficult for you and what's easy for you may be extremely difficult for you.

What else are you auditioning with? How are your scales and arpeggios? How is your voicing?  What other etudes have you played?

[lalo57]

I was thinking about the Liebestraum (but it is in fact overplayed) or papillons by Schumann but if you suggest another one it would be fantastic, I have to pick a WTC prelude and fugue (if you have one in mind that would help a lot). Mozart sonata c minor and fantasia (or a Beethoven sonata around that level but not the pathétique because everybody plays it too) and they also said I had to play a moderne piece and agreed that I could play a latinoamerican piece (like Piazzolla or ginastera) as long as it is "virtuoso" piece. My level is fair enough to play a good rendition to the revolutionary étude, at least better than what most guys my age (17) play it, but I would not be able to play for instance winterwind. So in theory the revolutionary would be the only overplayed piece that I would play.

[cabbynum]

I was thinking about the Liebestraum (but it is in fact overplayed) or papillons by Schumann but if you suggest another one it would be fantastic, I have to pick a WTC prelude and fugue (if you have one in mind that would help a lot). Mozart sonata c minor and fantasia (or a Beethoven sonata around that level but not the pathétique because everybody plays it too) and they also said I had to play a moderne piece and agreed that I could play a latinoamerican piece (like Piazzolla or ginastera) as long as it is "virtuoso" piece. My level is fair enough to play a good rendition to the revolutionary étude, at least better than what most guys my age (17) play it, but I would not be able to play for instance winterwind. So in theory the revolutionary would be the only overplayed piece that I would play.

Look at Chopins ballades and scherzi as well. I would start looking there.

I would pick a Beethoven sonata if I were you. Not the moonlight and not op.49 op.79 or op.14

Bach prelude and fugue, have you played any before?
Modern piece I still can't decide on mine so I'm not help there

Also
How are your scales and arpeggios? How is your voicing?  What other etudes have you played?

[flashyfingers]

When are you planning on auditioning? Etudes are hit and miss when you first start playing them. They really should challenge your technique. I suggest working on a few of the Chopin, some Liszt, then listen to a few of the Rach etudes. There are also Debussy, which are fairly hard. Ive worked on a few of the Rach etudes, Liszt and Chopin.

[j_menz]

Counterpoint in it's advanced form is polyphonic,and this cannot be done on the violin. (As far as I know...I'd love for you to show otherwise!)

Not a violin, but should brighten your day:

Your argument would apply equally to a Cello, so this will equally disprove it.

[flashyfingers]

Not a violin, but should brighten your day:

Your argument would apply equally to a Cello, so this will equally disprove it.

I still don't hear many parts, and definitely not many parts that are independent (mature idea wise) of one another.

[cabbynum]

I still don't hear many parts, and definitely no parts that are independent of one another.

Go listen to all 24 Paganini caprices... I reccomend Alexander markov. You will be amazed at what a violin is capable of. And a cello.

[cabbynum]

[flashyfingers]

I'm definitely not in the mood to argue about violins/stringed instruments and pianos again.

They keyboard instrument has had many different temperament changes over the previous centuries, where the violin has hardly been revolutionized (as far as tuning goes), is all I feel I want to say on this manner. Neither is better than the other, they both hold an equally important role in defining what music is.

[cabbynum]

I'm definitely not in the mood to argue about violins/stringed instruments and pianos again.

They keyboard instrument has had many different temperament changes over the previous centuries, where the violin has hardly been revolutionized, is all I feel I want to say on this manner. Neither is better than the other, they both hold an equally important role in defining what music is.

That's not the point though. Obviously the piano is capable of more harmonies and more counterpoint. I mean we've got 10 fingers to use first off and 88 keys.

I'm just saying the violin is capable of more polyphony than you're giving it credit.

[flashyfingers]

That's not the point though. Obviously the piano is capable of more harmonies and more counterpoint. I mean we've got 10 fingers to use first off and 88 keys.

I'm just saying the violin is capable of more polyphony than you're giving it credit.

the bow can only be in one position at a time, as far as I can tell. (neck curves, not like a guitar.)

[j_menz]

I still don't hear many parts, and definitely not many parts that are independent (mature idea wise) of one another.

Ear wax, perhaps?

[flashyfingers]

Ear wax, perhaps?

please don't ignore my previous post, regarding the stringed instrument's bow positioning.

[cabbynum]

please don't ignore my previous post, regarding the stringed instrument's bow positioning.

You can play more than one string at once and that leaves many many options open to the experienced player.
One of the caprices has a tremolo going with a melody on top. Pretty cool!

[flashyfingers]

You can play more than one string at once and that leaves many many options open to the experienced player.
One of the caprices has a tremolo going with a melody on top. Pretty cool!

that is pretty cool! I am reading about cello polyphony right now, actually.

[j_menz]

please don't ignore my previous post, regarding the stringed instrument's bow positioning.

A bow can play two adjacent strings, and within physical limits, the interval between them is variable. A bow can move off one of them and bow another string temporarily. Open strings are free to continue resonating, though this is not nearly as noticeable as on a piano and is effectively damped if the finger holding it moves.

You can check the score to the Bach Cello Suites here, which should demonstrate to you the complexity of the counterpoint involved.

[flashyfingers]

It appears that the statement about stringed instruments' capability of polyphony is a paradox.

[flashyfingers]

"There areessentially only two ways of creating polyphony on a solo violin or cello -one can play two or more strings at once ("double-" or "triple-stopping")or in arpeggiation (as broken chords) or one can apply a compositionaltechnique which in German is called "Durchführung" (the "leadingthrough" or, more loosely, the "spinning out," of a musical idea). Thislatter technique (more properly, a whole bag of compositional tricks)seems to have originated in the exposition section of fugues and later found important applications in the development section of the sonataform."

https://www.academia.edu/900243/The_Bach_Cello_Suites

this is all I found

[snorefest]

I don't like rankings but for a general idea

Douze grandes etudes are nearly impossible.

Transcendental are very very difficult
 
Paganini etudes S.140 about the same as transcendental etudes...

Paganini etudes S.141 not as bad as the 140 but still extremely challenging

Two concert etudes with Gnomerienen taking the lead here

3 concert etudes I disagree completely with flashy fingers here. I believe these are the easiest of the liszt etudes. And the Paganini are by no means easy at all. Take a look at 1, 2, 3 , 4 and 6 of the original, make sure to see both versions of no.4

Also, the Grande étude de perfectionnement. It is a complement of two etudes (but it's really one of Liszt's two visions of the same etude); both Morceaux de Salon and Ab Irato share the same basic melody and layout (The Ab Irato is published as a refined revision of Morceaux de Salon whereas the Morceaux seems to be a preliminary rough draft version of Ab Irato). They are relatively accessible to amateurs and professionals alike due to their conciseness yet, their eloquence is remarkable too. This formidable piece is absolutely criminally underrated

[kosulin]

Why Liszt? If one etude is by Chopin, then the second one should probably be better chosen from a different era/style.
Debussy, may be? He was French which may please the Paris auditioner if you play it right. #10 might be a great choice IMHO.
O-ops, I just realized that the OP was 9 years ago :-)